Single transliteration scheme for all CM languages?

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 06 Jan 2007, 15:20

For example ஙனம், எங்ஙனம், ஞமலி, ஞமன், ஞாண், ஞானம், ஞாயிறு, ஞிமிறு are peculiar to Tamil.

Not entirely correct. These sounds occur regularly in Malayalam, e.g. ஞாண் or ~nAn for 'I'. Also, most Tamils pronounce this sound more like 'ங', not the true 'ஞ'.

Btw, the Tamil word ஞானம் seems to be a weaker version of the Sanskrit/Malayalam word JnAnam (that is pronounced with the 'ja' and '~na' sounds together). Some other languages treat this word as 'GyAnam' or 'GyAn'.

I believe Malayalam encompasses a much larger set of sounds than the other three SI languages.

(Govindan - 'cognate' just means two words in 2 languages related to one another, e.g. the English word 'name' and the Hindi 'naam' are cognates.)

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 06 Jan 2007, 16:15

It is the cognate of the kannaDa word nEsaR/nEsaru

ஞாயிறு, (p. 531) [ Ã±āyiṟu, ] s. (com. நாயிறு.) The sun, சூரியன். 2. Sunday (the word for day being understood)

'cognate' just means two words in 2 languages related

jayaram,
'cognate' always means that there is a root word. From the above examples, you should be able to make out which is the root word. A root word is not a cognate.

ஞாண், [ Ã±āṇ, ] s. (com. நாண்.) A string, கயி று. 2. A bow-string, வின்னாண். (p.)

is not same as ஞாண் used in Malayalam which is a corrupted form of நான். I am aware that in Malayalam, நா is pronounced as 'ஞா'.
To quote your own example, the Sanskrit word नाम is the root word and நாமம், नाम (Hindi), name are cognates.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 06 Jan 2007, 16:56

vgvindan wrote:
It is the cognate of the kannaDa word nEsaR/nEsaru

ஞாயிறு, (p. 531) [ Ã±āyiṟu, ] s. (com. நாயிறு.) The sun, சூரியன். 2. Sunday (the word for day being understood)

'cognate' just means two words in 2 languages related
jayaram,
'cognate' always means that there is a root word. From the above examples, you should be able to make out which is the root word. A root word is not a cognate.

cognate only means there is a vommon rootword in antiquity for these cognates. There is no way you can make out from you "Above words" which is the root word. Please dont make such sweeping statements. It only reveals your prejudices.

In case you have still not understood what I said, ~nAyiRu is a cognate of the kannaDa word nEsaR/nEsaru and, nESaR is the cognate of ~yAyiRu.
And FYI, in words like this, sa sound is more ancient than ya sound. nEsaR vs ~nAyiRu and pesar vs peyar. This is a fact accepted by linguists right from and including Robert Caldwell.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 06 Jan 2007, 17:00

It only reveals your prejudices

Good Bye to Rasika Forums

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 06 Jan 2007, 17:10

vgv
My- Arent you sensitive! Apologies if I have hurt your sentiments.

Anyway, if you are still open to obejective facts, please see page 177 here (or do a search for pecar) in this pdf file pecar is the protodravidian word. So, even by your definition of what a cognate means, my original statement was correct

http://hin.osaka-gaidai.ac.jp/~masatok/hpiac_2004.pdf

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 06 Jan 2007, 17:27

Dear Shri Govindan - I would sincerely request you not to leave us, whatever be the reason. May I apologize on others' behalf if our postings have caused you offence.

I for one have immensely enjoyed your scholarly and erudite postings here. And I am sure many others do too.

And we still are only half-way on the transliteration project, remember?

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 07 Jan 2007, 01:54

A flood in guadalupe*! Cool guys!

Thanks to you all for clarifying my doubt.

-Ramakriya

*guadalupe: a rivulet that flows in San Jose CA, where I live

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 07 Jan 2007, 04:57

Vgvindan,

Pls dont take offense where it was not intended. I am sure DRS did not mean to attack you personally. Thanks.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 08 Jan 2007, 23:29

hi,

i am trying to create a newer (and different) version of test-bed, wherein you
(a) specify input with text decorations like bold, italic etc.
(b) see the translation in different languages
(c) print (one language rendition at one time)

Now, there is an extra kink here (which rshankar sort of hinted to before). Some terms which will figure outside the actual sAhitya can vary between langauges. For example Raga, may have to be rendered as rAga in sanskrit, rAgamu in telugu, and rAgam in tamil. Similarly Composer, should come out as vAggEyakAra (?) in sanskrit, vAggeyakkArar in tamizh etc. Even the name of some composers (e.g. tyAgarAja) can vary between languages.

I would like to be able to supporting specification of these special terms - somehow

). Right now, i am thinking of requiring these "special terms" to be indicated in the input text in some special way e.g say as $Raga. I am not that crazy about the $ syntax but implementation headaches have prevented me so far in coming up with something better.

Anyway, to atleast put a version up for you to see and get a feel for, i need Sanskrit/telugu/Kannada/malayalam specific terms for the following:

1. Raga, tala
2. composer
3. language (i.e like mozhi in tamil)
4. ciTTaswaram
5. muktAyi swaram
6. madhyama kAla

Pl. think about how they will occur in a cm book in these languages.

Now ideally the list of these terms have to include those ragas which carry different names (e.g. kAmbOdi in tamizh, abhOgi as opposed to AbhOgi in kannada etc.). So another question is where if any should the list be maintained? Some common database (more work of course)? Also should user be able to add his own terms with the input? etc. etc.

Thanks
Arun

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 08 Jan 2007, 23:38

In kannaDa

1. Raga, tala= rAga, tALa
2. composer= vAggEyakAra
3. language (i.e like mozhi in tamil)- bhAShe
4. ciTTaswaram- ciTTeswara
5. muktAyi swaram- muktAyi swara(ettugaDe swara in uttarAnga of varNas)
6. madhyama kAla= same

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 09 Jan 2007, 01:33

AFAIK

In telugu
rAgam, tALam, janyam, rUpakam is all written with a sunna at the end. It is not rAgamu, tAlamu etc. May be while speaking they do add "u" but I have not seen it in any text.
Ill have a look at the text at home.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 09 Jan 2007, 01:35

Suji
I think its the other way round. It is pronounced as rAgam, tALam etc or further simplified where m is not pronounced fully. In writing rAgamu as well as rAgam are accepted. In fact, thats one of the features that add to flexibility of telugu when using in songs, poetry etc

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 09 Jan 2007, 01:35

Although my knowledge of telugu script is near zero (it was definitely zero before this transl. stuff

), i thought the book on Syama Sastry krithis by Smt. Vidya Sankar had it as rAgamu and tALamu. But then again we may need a better example - say a telugu only book, and/or one published in Andhra.

Arun

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 09 Jan 2007, 01:44

drshrikaanth wrote:Suji
I think its the other way round. It is pronounced as rAgam, tALam etc or further simplified where m is not pronounced fully. In writing rAgamu as well as rAgam are accepted. In fact, thats one of the features that add to flexibility of telugu when using in songs, poetry etc

May be you are right that both are used.
I just checked one text- Sri Nookala Chinnasatyanarayana 's book has sunna for rAgam. will verify with other text at home. We can choose whichever is popular.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 09 Jan 2007, 02:12

what is sunna?

Arun

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 09 Jan 2007, 02:15

arunk wrote:what is sunna?

Arun

Sunna in telugu means zero.
I meant the script written like zero "O"

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 09 Jan 2007, 02:16

ok - the bindu/anuswara i believe.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 09 Jan 2007, 02:18

Suji
sunna is a misleading example I think. It does not have "m" at the end does it? It is an akArAnta Sabda, equivalent to sonne in kannaDa (Ultimately derived from SUnya of skt). SO sunna is sunna only. Not sunnam or sunnamu. Latter would mean lime (suNNa or cunnAmbu). Am I correct?

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 09 Jan 2007, 02:29

arunk wrote:ok - the bindu/anuswara i believe.

Yes. I should have payed more attention to other postings to correctly represent.

DRS I was refering to NCS book having bindu at the end for rAgam.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 09 Jan 2007, 02:32

Oops. Sorry Suji. Now I see what you mean. Yes. rAgam with a sunna at the end. Ok

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 09 Jan 2007, 02:38

drshrikaanth wrote:Oops. Sorry Suji. Now I see what you mean. Yes. rAgam with a sunna at the end. Ok

When it comes to language grammer you can give me a big sunna!!