"tamizhisai forms basis of Thyagaraja krithis ' !!

Sundara Rajan · Post by **Sundara Rajan** » 19 Mar 2009, 21:18

E.Angarkanni, Head, Dept. of music, Tamil Univ at Thirvayaru has claimed ( Hindu dt. March 19,2009 under Tamil Nadu/ Thanjavur news) that Thyagarja's compositions in HarikAmbodhi , Chencuruti and other ragas were BASED on Appar's, Sambandar's and Sundarar's thEvAram paNNs. (www.hindu.com/2009/03/19/stories/20090319520200.htm). It is my understanding that the thEvArams were not produced as musical compositions, but were SET to music by later day musicologists. I invite discussion on this topic.

k_pavan2 · Post by **k_pavan2** » 24 Mar 2009, 13:17

That link is broken.

(PS:- Smells more of tamizh nationalism to me...)

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 24 Mar 2009, 19:36

I wonder what Thyagaraja then did for the other ragas in which he composed (which dont have corresponding paNNs in tEvAram). Perhaps he took them from Telugu Isai or Kannada Isai or perhaps Malayala Isai (music of kathakkali)?

It is a nonsense claim that Carnatic music (or even Thyagaraja's) owes its origin or concepts to people speaking a particular South Indian language only to the exclusion of others. Clearly it is a pan-Indian form of music having much related to Hindustani music than to any other single regional form.

Obviously it has links to Tamil music as well as other regional forms of ancient south Indian music.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 25 Mar 2009, 00:18

That hindu article is fairly devoid of real content except for the headline which is really not expanded upon in the article. So let us punt that.

But I do not understand why our knee-jerk reaction is one of Tamil Nationalism. It immediatley shuts down any music related discussion.

I think there is one line of thought which need not be confused with tamil nationalism if we do not extend it to the origins of CM itself.

Thyagaraja coud have had some exposure to paN based music. One source could have been the tEvAram singing OdhuvArs at the Thyagaraja Siva temple in Thiruvayyaru which he purportedly visited for worship everyday. And there are other possible sources ( his mom could have sung lullaby for his younger siblings or cousins whose roots are paN based, or whatever ).

An intriguing question for me is, could he have been inspired/influenced by the melody and rhythm of those age old paN based compositions? In other words, is it possible to sense those influences in his music.

I do not not know if it is really knowable but there are some research methodologies available. Compare his compositions to other composers of his era especially those who have used the same book as the reference for melody and rhythm. Are there any new ideas introduced by T and not by others. Does that delta have any connection to the PaN music in terms of tune and rhythm? I am definitely not qualified to even setup the proper research methodology but I would not rule it a dead end a priori.

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 25 Mar 2009, 13:10

We can have a discussion about paNNs and their corresponding ragas. We can then explore how one could have influenced the other. We can see what paNNs form the basis of particular verses of old tamil hymns. That is the way to go.

The way not to go is to put the cart before the horse (conclusion without explanation). So k_pavan2 is justified in claiming it smacks of regional/linguistic chauvinism. I did think so too.

That is not however to stop informed discussions, but to stop jingoism.

No one claimed that Tamil (or Kannada or Telugu or Malayalam for that matter) has nothing to do with CM or Thyagaraja. The title has been worded in such a way as to provoke resistance. It should have been titled "Tamizh Isai may have influenced some/many of Thyagaraja's kritis". No one can raise Thyagaraja from the dead and make him swear Tamizh isai definitely forms the basis for his kritis, so there has to be some level of persuasive evidence, nothing can be put as conclusive as what the title of the news report seems to suggest. Jingoism it surely seems to be at the current moment.

Besides, it is highly unlikely that paNNs were known in the 18th-19th centuries as well as people know them now. It was but after Thyagaraja's time that Tamil literary and cultural aspects had a rediscovery and revival, and it is hardly likely that Thyagaraja was exposed to the original paNNs in their pristine and pure state as what existed 1000 years before him (the time of the nAyanmArs and Azhwars). I dont think paNN based music had a continuous historical tradition upto the times of Thyagaraja as to form a distinct genre from the melakarta system of carnatic music to enable T to make a borrowal or something of that sort. Most paNNs are rediscoveries of the 20th century..

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 25 Mar 2009, 13:15

It is not only the headline VK, but also the the fact that Thyagaraja's pioneering definition of the Harikambhoji raga has been casually attributed to the work of others. If there is rigorous research of the kind you suggest, the assertion might have some credibility but merely the fact that some of the Panns used by ancient Saivite saints were in the Harikambhoji scale is hardly reason enough to make such a claim. As for Senchuruti, the saint has not even composed any major krithis in the raga, if at all it is possible to do so - to use this as an example to demonstrate the influence of panns in his music is completely ridiculous.

I am sure Thyagaraja would have been exposed to a variety of musical sources and some of these might have influenced him but considering the fact that he lived just about 2 centuries ago, I am not too sure information about ancient tamil music was any less hazy than it is today.

As for Thyagaraja's originality - you could possibly attirbute a krithi or two, or even whole sets of krithis/ragas to previous works but the sheer range of his originality is so mind boggling - New Melas, Eka-krithi ragas (at least in his lifetime), Vivadhis, Diversity of krithis in the same raga (compare Koluvaiyunnade with Tanayuni Brova) - that even the most cynical inquirer cannot but acknowledge that his was an exatrordinarily original mind.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 26 Mar 2009, 07:53

Vijay, srkris: I am with you on all those points, especially with the clarification srkris provided with "Tamizh Isai may have influenced some/many of Thyagaraja's kritis". That is how I interpreted the poorly worded Hindu heading "Thamizhisai forms basis for many kritis of Thiagaraja" and not extending to mean that the whole of CM owes its origins to paNs. In fact, 'influence' is probably a word I will be comfortable with as a starting hypothesis rather than 'basis'.

Vijay, I can not agree with you more on Thyagaraja's originality, so any opinion in this thread about what all influenced T should not be construed as a strike against that rock solid reputation of T in that regard. Not just the ragas but the way melody is chiseled over the lyrics and the interesting laya structures, masterful indeed.

Let me offer some clarification on my "limited" pet-peeve: Any mention of research topics along these lines immediately invoke negative reaction. I may even be accused of siding with 'tamil jingoists' or 'tamil fundamentalists'. That will be far from the truth.

It is the Hindu that wrote the article with meagre content along with some tantalizing headline. That article is poorly written, a typical Hindu article which covers events of this sort. We did not accuse the Hindu of jingoism for that possibly controversial and misleading headline but we went straight to the researchers. We do not really know the motivation of those researchers. Even if they are wrong, it can be due to bad research methodology or just poor scholarship. I would not rule out jingoism ( I do not know them ) but jumping on that as the reason is what I am referring to as the knee-jerk reaction.

In other words, if we accuse these researchers of 'put the cart before the horse' , that is what we are doing when we question their motives without knowing anything about their work.

Having said all this, this kind of work is not new. Prof. S. Ramanathan has done a lot of work on this. Also, in one of the Jaya TV programs couple of years back, Santhanagopalan loudly wondered if that particular pantuvarali song of Thyagaraja he was teaching was influenced by the sADAri paN.

And, if I were to read the details of their research, my bar for even considering any thesis favorably along those lines would be very high but we can always conduct that debate purely on research grounds rather than on the motivations of the researchers. If there is nothing more to their work than what is mentioned in that article, then I am with you all that it is not worth anything.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 26 Mar 2009, 10:30

I agree that the culprit could be the reporter rather than the reseachers but if was there was a knee-jerk reaction, it is Tamil triumphalists who are to blame because such articles immediately bring to mind the continual efforts of jingoists to bring language politics into music...and a whole range of other things besides...

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 26 Mar 2009, 11:00

Vijay: I agree with what you cite as the possible reason for the reaction. In fact, I had that hunch and that is the reason I decided to call it out. Forget the researchers mentioned in this article, there may or may not be anything to their work, but given this type of environment that we both agree exists, real scholarly research risks being sidelined, marginalized and ridiculed. I was just trying to caution against that. I do grant you that reputation matters a lot in such endeavors and the 'Nixon goes to China' principle applies as far as any acceptance of such thesis, even when well supported by research.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 26 Mar 2009, 14:58

Fair points - BTW what is this "Nixon goes to China" principle?!!

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 26 Mar 2009, 15:16

For an interesting article on this topic, see here:
(This is written by MV Ramana, who recently gave a lecture on the kutcheri format to a rasikas group in Bangalore.)
http://www.geocities.com/m_v_ramana/pret_tamil.html

A few words about the influence of Tamil music on the the modern trinity tyAgarAjA, dIkshitar and SyAmA Sastry. (For an interesting article on tyAgarAjA and Tamil, see s. pashupaty's article in SRUTI issue #55, April 1989, page 28. I thank shri pashupaty for this reference as well as lots of other information/references.) All these composers lived in tanjAvUr which has been the center for paNN music for centuries, it is highly unlikely that they would not have regularly (if not every day) listened to tEvArams and nAyana music. tiruvArUr being an important saivite centre and having a major temple would certainly have attracted the best of OduvArs and nAdaswara vidwAns. From various accounts, such as the works of u vE svAminAta ayyar, we know that the songs of composers like muttutANDavar etc were quite popular till they were somewhat upstaged by the flurry of new compositions in the late 18th and 19th centuries. It is quite natural that the trinity would have listened to them also. The extent of influence these compositions have exerted on the trinity has not been studied in adequate measure.

Does anyone have access to the Sruti article by Pashupati mentioned above?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 26 Mar 2009, 21:01

Vijay: Nixon was a die-hard anti communist and at that time, anyone expressing a desire to establish any ties with China was vilified as communist and it was tantamount to political suicide to do so. When Nixon decided to visit China, he was spared all that negative branding since he was a strong anti-communist to begin with. The expression "Nixon goes to china" is a compact expression for any such similar sentiment in other contexts.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 26 Mar 2009, 22:52

Thanks VK - I was aware of Nixon's Kissinger manufactured China trip but not all the other details...

ksrimech · Post by **ksrimech** » 27 Mar 2009, 04:44

To add to VK- Nixon's 1972 China trip was the first by any US Presidents.

More the hype.

gobilalitha · Post by **gobilalitha** » 27 Mar 2009, 16:25

This is what I have been expressingi in my post "what is original score? . no musicalscore is original. While at Singapore, I was tuning all stations one by one on the radio. Radio Cambodia was on the air which I got accidentally. There was some instrumental music, some strange stringed instrument. The song resembled raaga sama.. should I presume that raaga sama was incorporated in carnatic music from cambodian music? It is also a fact that in the chinese and japanese music, we find usage of mohanam to a great exrtent Afterall pann or cm should be from the seven swaras only .gobilalitha

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 27 Mar 2009, 19:33

VK,

There are a lot of factors other than "genuine research" that can bring about announcements like this. One of them is propoganda, and the better it comes from the HOD of a music university (just so crap can be doled out from genuine sounding sources).

What other research has this university done and how many of those are publicly announced like this? I have experience of reading about this Angayarkanni before and hence I knew what the motivations could be. I'm not simply taking blind shots.

This is nothing about whether Thyagaraja was inspired by Thevaram or not, very good if it was so; nothing wrong in taking inspiration from Thevaram or from Alwars. The motivations of the announcement and its media coverage are entirely different. Its so obvious.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 29 Mar 2009, 00:58

srkris wrote:VK,

One of them is propoganda,
.

Yep. This applies amply to "Nixon goes to China" too.

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 29 Mar 2009, 14:58

Pertinent article

http://jeyamohan.in/?p=1416#

chalanata · Post by **chalanata** » 29 Mar 2009, 20:42

but RK,
The article by jayamohan seems to say that the entire thing seems to have come from tamizhisai only.
as far as i see it the nayanmar who created 'punn' acknowledged the cm singers as 'thogaiadiyaar' (singing in all languages including sanskrit) and they seemed to have no fight that time. each had a clear understanding of each's role play...

Sundara Rajan · Post by **Sundara Rajan** » 29 Mar 2009, 21:09

srkris: That is a very interesting and informative article, worth reading by those who could read Tamil, although not quite relevant to the topic under the discussion here. Very good argument against "Tamil songs only " chauvanists. Perhaps this article will belong better where "Why not Tamil songs in Carnatic concerts" topic is discussed.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 29 Mar 2009, 21:18

Thanks for that ref. Some interesting points...

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 29 Mar 2009, 22:57

Interesting indeed. I can't necessarily agree to all the points but the main intent and most of the supporting points are very well articulated. Thanks for the link!

Arun

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 30 Mar 2009, 02:09

chalanata wrote:The article by jayamohan seems to say that the entire thing seems to have come from tamizhisai only.
as far as i see it the nayanmar who created 'punn' acknowledged the cm singers as 'thogaiadiyaar' (singing in all languages including sanskrit) and they seemed to have no fight that time. each had a clear understanding of each's role play...

That the nAyanmAr "created" paNNs is a tall claim. They just called them paNNs and probably used them. That does neither indicate the paNNs were created by them nor even that they were tamizh by origin.

Tamils liked to use tamil names even for 100% non-tamil concepts. For example

1. vedas are called maRai
2. vishnu is called mAl
3. devas are called vEndar
4. yajnas are called vELvi
5. brahmins were called anthanar
6. Krishna was called kaNNan
7. godA was called ANDAL (in all probability she lived near godAvari basin after whom the river is named)
8. flute as kuzhal

I can go on and on like this.

So if I am allowed to claim that tamils had their own indigenous vedas and own sacrifices and own krishna and indigenous devas and own vishnu - all separate from the sanskrit versions, how absurd will that be?

In the same way, why couldnt have the already existing rAgas of the time been renamed paNN (like how the swaras were renamed in tamil as vilari, taaram, kural, ili etc) as well?

There is no record that any indigenous classical music activity existed in ancient tamil country; hence my own understanding is there was no such thing called tamizhisai (as a complete classical music genre). Tamils used the same classical music as the rest of ancient India but used tamil names to refer to those concepts.

No disrespect to Dr. S.Ramanathan and others who researched on tamizhisai, but perhaps it's all useless unless we can prove that there was something significantly different from the raga/swara related Indian classical music system that's said to have its origin in the saptaswaras of the sAma veda.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 30 Mar 2009, 09:30

As Sundar Rajan wrote, the Jayamohan link is quite good but not quite on the topic of this thread. That topic is about the origin of CM itself which is much more broad obviously.

Be that as it may, since we are speculating on the nature of the so called 'thamizhisai' :

Srkris: If you take the point of view "hence my own understanding is there was no such thing called tamizhisai (as a complete classical music genre)." as a given, then there is
no point in any further work on this. Also, if you dismiss the work of honest researches like Dr. S. Ramanathan, then I do not know who else I can quote. Definitely not Angayarkanni

BTW, Your premise itself is too strict. I do not think any regional music system need to satisfy the high bar of 'a complete classical music genere' for it to contribute to the classical music of the day.
I definitely need help on this from those who have studied the classical sanskrit works, but there are numerous references to ragas from various 'countries' and desiya ragas etc.

So ideas like "Tamils used the same classical music as the rest of ancient India but used tamil names to refer to those concepts.", though nice and compact, is too unrealistic an assumption to base any hypothesis let alone conclusions. ( replace Tamils by any other region ). Why should music be any different when rest of the cultural aspects had been so vastly different across the length and breadth of India 2000 years back?

I think the general consensus/prevailing common view is that the evolution of classical music itself is affected by various regional music over the 2000+ years. Classical music had taken the form of documenting and classifying the existing music of certain regions and over time it has attained an identity of its own. In that process, a certain level of sophistication has been added, consistency is maintained so that it can be studied and transmitted and rhythms have been simplified ( this had happened in scholarly classification attempts of existing phenomenon resulting in increase in entropy ). Many classical music works definitely give the vibe of descriptive rather than prescriptive grammar. I am already going much farther than what my limited knowledge should allow me to write, so I will defer further elaborations and corrections to those of you who had studied the classical musical works in depth.

But I would not discount any region inventing/re-inventing their own musical systems even if it is remarkably similar to other parts of the country. This has happened around the world, why not within India?

vganesh · Post by **vganesh** » 30 Mar 2009, 10:12

I have been reading Jaymohan's blog ..... Generally many of them ( of jayamohan type) take a stand stating Tamil First. Unfortunately I also love Tamil so do many of us. We also know Tamil got a long list of literature line equalling or more to any other world's language. PanN is very famous in Tamil literature. So there be could some form Tamizhisai. Thats it. Even Saint Thyagaraja could have been influenced because of the environ. So be it. As VK put it every system/culture/customs do undergo change. Cine music from the time of Haridas to today is just different. Why not CM?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 30 Mar 2009, 17:29

Tamils certainly did not shy from using what seems to me as sanskrit based (or atleast non-tamil) names for the panns themselves.

Whether tamizhisai existed prior to Bharata and his ancestors thus was the "source" is very hard to tell as there is not much evidence. I think reasoning is based on inferences from references in silappatikAram and also references in sangam poetry. There is a lot of extrapolation IMO.

But what seems more clear is that by the first half of first millenium AD, the pann system seems pretty much the same as what is discussed in brhhaddesi etc. So from that standpoint what srkris says I agree. I think there was one system - or atleast one main system with localized variations.

I think a healthier way to look at it is, CM today has influences from tamizhisai or it has influences from the music practised (prior to 17th century) in tamizh land as well. Just like it has influences from kannada, telugu and malayalam speaking lands. It is an evolved form that has its contributions from all of us. And I think that is also the point that jayamohan makes

Arun

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 30 Mar 2009, 19:27

There are definitely records of classical music activity in the ancient tamil land as mentioned in the Silappadhikaaram. The question is whether it was an indigenous form of music or it was an indigenised form of Indian Classical music.

This is the question that will settle the issue of whether Thyagaraja borrowed from an indigenous art form of TN or a pan-Indian art form that was also practised in Tamil lands (and referred to with tamil names).

The point that I wanted to make is that use of tamil names and concepts does not ipso facto make the art form a tamil art form as much as veLvi and vEndar wont become tamizh sacrifices and tamil devas.

I am not competent to judge Dr. Ramanathan's work in any way. His research may have been based on the assumption that the art practised by the ancient tamils was indigenous, I dont know. It is this assumption that I am addressing, not the quality of his work or his eminence as a scholar.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 30 Mar 2009, 21:09

Yes, it is for the scholars to find the connections. We should not miss the most important point here. While I'm not a scholar and have not read scholastic works on music, I know for sure that I am a rasikA. So are all of us on the forum. Forgetting for a moment that Jayamohan is an important writer in tamizh today, let us look upon him as a rasikA. He brings a glimmer of hope to us in that there needs to be no barriers in appreciating CM, or any level of expertise in it. Labeling it (assuming that it is for a chosen few, or assuming that it is beyond one's limits) and of course, politics have brought about alienation in the appreciation of CM. The damage has been done.
Jayamohan is like a breath of fresh air where stale arguments of both kinds have polluted the air. The fine Arts are supposed to elevate us. Music is supposed to humanize us. Are we forgetting the music while we expend our energy in pointing fingers at each other?
Jayamohan does not call himself a seasoned rasikA. He likes to listen to music, also classical music at that. He looks at the history and the mire of politics without any bias. We do not live in the times when a bArati inspired us to fight for our freedom. Don't we have to pay attention to a literary voice today? More so since it speaks not for or against any faction?
In any case, this is a good moment for us to stop blaming each other, the government and about what is dead and gone, to focus on measures which are healthy for the well being of CM.
If others think I am naive or am too optimistic, so be it. At least, I would not add any of my comments when a battle rages about old wounds and new stirrings of derisive statements. While I am proud of my heritage, I also pride myself as a citizen of the world (bArati called even the creepers, crawlers and flyers his creed!). I would rather listen to good CM, be happy, and hope there will be more and more of those who do the same too, in the years to come...

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 30 Mar 2009, 21:37

srkris, arun: Thanks for those precise points. That sets up the discussion on well-defined lines.

What you two say is understandable. My only problem is it is too neat and compact

>"The question is whether it was an indigenous form of music or it was an indigenised form of Indian Classical music."

This is too much black and white. Classical music itself can be described as a process of convertion of regional and folk music to musicology by the intellegensia. That sophisticated version then took an identity of its own as a performing music. You are talking about a scenario where classical music was born all by itself in its sophisticated form with all the grammars written down neatly.

Also, we have been focussing on melody. That is only 50%. What about rhythm? Regional music rhythms are much more compicated involving different nadais and Chapu style of rhythms. This phenomenon of scholars adding sophistication to melody while simplifying rhythm is seen in other classical music systems as well. Several folk songs are in tisram and kandam naturally and sound quite different from what we know as classical music ( though some of it is now rendered in CM concerts as we know ).

>This is the question that will settle the issue of whether Thyagaraja borrowed from an indigenous art form of TN or a pan-Indian art form that was also practised in Tamil lands (and referred to with tamil names).

Actually I was not taking this Thyagaraja issue to that extreme. Now I understand why there was a disconnect and there are really two threads in one here. Here is how I interpreted it.

Let us call X the music that could be produced if you strictly followed the classical grammar books that thyagaraja used ( both melody and rhythm )
Let us call A the music thyagaraja actually produced. ( both melody and rhythm )

Now how do we reconcile ( A - X )? Chalk up a huge portion of that to Thyagaraja's creativity. Can we also assign some of that to influences of regional music around him that is not found in X? That is all I would like to find out. For example, what was Thyagaraja's inspiration for using Khanda Chapu and Misra Chapu thalas? For example, (Tolijanma, Bilahari, Kanda Chapu) has a distinctive folkish style with mixed nadai type feel that can not be neaty retrofitted to the Khanda Eka of the suladi saptha thala system. In his Operas, he had composed songs in different nadais. Did that come from X or regional sources? How about ragas that are not mentioned in X? Did he create them from Venkatamakhin melakartha scales or he found inspiration from the music around him for which he could find classical base in Venkatamakhin's generalization? I may be over-reaching here but do ragas like Natta Kurinji, Kurinji, yadukulakambhoji etc. get a mention in X?

Once there is some scholarly material available on some analysis of ( A - X ), we can then consider the possibly controversial aspects whether any regional influence's origin goes back to some ancient tamil isai, whether classical or folk.

Those are the types of questions that are interesting to me.

>His research may have been based on the assumption that the art practised by the ancient tamils was indigenous, I dont know

Good point. I think we owe it to Dr. S. Ramanathan to find out what his thesis was. Can someone help?

ksrimech · Post by **ksrimech** » 31 Mar 2009, 07:24

srkris wrote: 7. godA was called ANDAL (in all probability she lived near godAvari basin after whom the river is named)

Srkris, She lived in SrIvilliputtUr (vaigai ARRankarai) and not guNTUr (gOdAvari ARRankarai)

. Also, a reference to gOdAvari river can be found in SrImad rAmAyaNam which predates gOdA. gOdavari did not get it name from ANDAL. But it definitely got fame as recorded by svAmi vEdAnta dESikan in SrI gOdAstuti. (If interested I can quote the SlOka also

)

sridhar_ranga · Post by **sridhar_ranga** » 31 Mar 2009, 18:50

I guess Srivilliputtur only has kuLattankarai! Vaigai is further to the north.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 31 Mar 2009, 20:51

vk - I think my point is not that Thyagaraja could not have any regional influences. I would extremely surprised if the music of trinity had no regional influences.

But IMO when you bring in panns as an influence, and you bring in nayanmars and alwars, then we push the time line back by about 1200-1300 years. That is a long time in terms of musical evolution. Hence, to me talking of pann influence on the trinity's music seems like jumping too far ahead, too quickly. There is a tendency for people passionate about tamil (not people here) to associate with pann music i.e. as "our music", and hence view the current carnatic music form and its precedents as "not our music". This then drives some to prove that "even this other music" is really a child of "our music". So "we are great, our people were great" etc. IMO, some of this is knee-jerk reaction. There is no question that in CM circles you will find many many people who hold views that prompt this knee-jerk reaction. But I digress...

In any case, before looking for influences of pann music in the trinity's music I would like to see whether pann music was an influence to the grama-murchana music. Just the silappatikaram details are not sufficient to me because both bharata and dattila are around the same period. So based on that, it is hard to know if
(a) one simply "copied" and not acknowledged the other i.e. plagiarism

- i.e. this implies one was clearly the source. This is most attractive to people too passionate about their language and people. People do say this has happened w.r.t hinduism itself (i.e. absorbed local gods into the pantheon, weave mythology around it, and soon mythology eclipses everything else).
(b) that both had a common ancestor earlier
(c) Both are the same but expressed in regional terms. This would be similar to how languages evolve. Now both have very similar principles (e.g. 22 basic units) but there are differences there too (the basic scale of tamizh isai is neither the basic tone-set of Sadja grame nor that of the madhyama grama).
(d) both were different, but merged.

Also, like I mentioned earlier in some other thread, a *lot* of the details of music from silappatikaram also comes from a commentary which I think is dated much much later. I lean towards (b) or (c) or (d) - perhaps more towards (c) or (d), until more evidence shows up.

We also need to see whether the music practiced in temples of deep south in the time period of 1400-1700 AD (i.e. prior to the trinity) were a localized form of the music in CM/early-CM related texts then (there were plenty of them), or whether it was a distinct entity from which both sides borrowed (sort of like the languages). Based on evidence in cm related texts, I think that immediate ancestral form of the CM of trinity came from karnataka - i.e. in the neighbourhood of vidyaranya, ramamatya, kallinata, purandaradasa. I think it is not hard to believe that as people moved south from karnataka and andhra, they came with their music, settled in the south etc. etc. Whether this form was just a regional variation of the music practiced in temples in madurai and tanjore district - or whether it was very different (and ended up influencing all music of Tamil land) - that would be most pertinent.

If the music of muttutANDavar, aruNAcalakavirAyar etc. was indeed similar to the cm music then, what does it tell us?
1. Both were the same music, but with local variations i.e. both had a common parent. This of course means that local variation could have had ragas, and rhythm frameworks that were not in the parent or in other variations.
2. One copied from the other - one is the parent.

Depending on one's inclination, one can go with #1 or #2

Arun

chalanata · Post by **chalanata** » 31 Mar 2009, 22:20

arunk wrote: There is a tendency for people passionate about tamil (not people here) to associate with pann music i.e. as "our music", and hence view the current carnatic music form and its precedents as "not our music". This then drives some to prove that "even this other music" is really a child of "our music". So "we are great, our people were great" etc. IMO, some of this is knee-jerk reaction. There is no question that in CM circles you will find many many people who hold views that prompt this knee-jerk reaction. But I digress...
Arun

On the contrary some people are more keen about trying to establish that Tamil had nothing to do with the origin of these. It may not be knee jerk reaction but probably an intolerance to Tamil's antiquity.
The same issue was discussed about an year back or so and when I said that the dravidian languages had the same origin there was a loud cry. This was based on Dravida mozhigalin Oppilakkanam by Coldwel. I referred to TV Gopalaiyar a great Tamil scholar who is engaged in translation of ancient Tamil texts in to French. He said very categorically that there were treatises in Tamil called Panchamarabu and Kalladam. He also said that when prakruth is removed from Kannada it is Tamil only. When I wrote this one gentleman from Kerala said that those who utter Tamil words are called rogues or a similar kind.
Mahendra Varma's bruhaddesi found in Kudumianmalai temple is not in Tamil but he is a Tamil king only whose origin is undiscovered.Some say they came from Java/Sumadra but they were before the later Cholas. Hence Mahendra Varma for all practical purposes is a Tamil king only.
The present form of cm may not have a Tamil origin but ragaas like karaharapria, bhairavi and kedara gowla are used not only in Pann but also in folk.
I am writing all these from my memory only & factual errors may be here and there but I am of the firm conviction that Tamil did not borrow a music form from elsewhere.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 31 Mar 2009, 23:24

That music had influence from folk is indeed true - I believe researchers look at desi vs. marga delineation to take this. The texts however do not explicitly honor this connection - i.e. once something is introduced in the divine context, its traces to mortal world are severed - it seems

I thought kudumiyanmalai inscription had a tamizh phrase at the end (albeit in grantha script?)

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 31 Mar 2009, 23:36

On a separate note, tamizh not only has a word vELvi (which I think is dravidian), but also has yAgam (which obviously is a sanskrit derivative). So you have a native word and an import that means the same. vELvi I think occurs in sangam poetry (aganAnUru according to lexicon)

While it is certainly possible that the sangam culture took this practice from Indo-Aryan culture where sacrifice is a big deal as evidenced even from the earliest texts, I think it is premature to simply conclude so based mainly/only on time line between the cultures, and importance of sacrifice to the Aryan culture (Unless some other justification is done which was not outlined?). This seems to the argument that presumes "anything that resembled what is documented in tamil literature must be of tamil argument" - i.e the argument against which this point was made! It is possible for two cultures to come with similar practices although I am sort of aware of how much sacrifice with fire is identified with the Vedic culture. I also thought in many case linguistics reveal some of the imports i.e. lack of native word with a native root etc.

Anyway, this is not important to the discussion and also does not take away the point srkris was making under whose context the above example was quoted (i.e. just because something occured in tamil literature doesnt necessarily make it uniquely tamil or tamil created).

Arun

PS: srkris, your ANDAL referennce also does not make any sense to me. I thought it was quite well documented in the Azhwar poems themselves (both periyAzhwar and ANDAl) which have lots of references to lots of places and temples which are still around in tamil nadu. Please clarify.