I invite the experts to go through the following site and post your comments. FYI, the author of the website/book is a direct descendant of ThilaisthAnam rAMa IyengAr, a revered disciple of Sathguru thyAgabrhmam.
http://22sruti.com
adiyEn
thyAGayya and rAMAnuja dhAsan
22 Sruthi- Inviting expert comments
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srkris
- Site Admin
- Posts: 3497
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 03:34
Hehehe :cheesy:
Sounds like one of those Raelist claims (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raelism) :cheesy:STARTLING REVELATIONS
A VERY ADVANCED (NOW EXTINCT) ANCIENT CIVILIZATION HAD HANDED DOWN THEIR RICH 22 SRUTI MUSIC SYSTEM TO US!!
BOTH WESTERN MUSIC AND INDIAN MUSIC BELONG TO THIS “PROTO-MUSIC”!!
“PROTO-MUSIC” HEAVILY CODED! PLENTY OF MYSTICISM! HOW TO PENETRATE THIS MYSTIC CLOUD AND RESURRECT THE RICH “ANCIENT MUSIC”?
PRESENT DAY INDIAN MUSIC AND WESTERN MUSIC “DOWN-SIZED” TO 12 SRUTIs! HOW PATHETIC! WHERE ARE THE MISSING SRUTIs? NEW FACTS!
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coolkarni
http://www.musicalnirvana.com/hindustan ... icles.htmlIn the South, he became a favourite musician in the Mysore darbar, and his music was highly appreciated by great Karnatak musicians like Tiger Varadacharier, Muthiah Bhagawatar and Veena Dhanammal. He also created a stir by advancing the "Shruti Samvad" theory in collaboration with the British musicologist Mr. E. Clements, and is said to bave given a fine demonstration of 22 Shrutis (micro-tonal distances) with the help of 2 Veenas at a public function' presided over by Dr. C.V. Raman.
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srininambirajan
- Posts: 2
- Joined: 27 Jul 2006, 17:40
while writing my Book, i had tried to free myself from all 'fixations' so that 'truth' as narrated by me remains unalloyed. While carrying out the research work on our classics such as Natyasastra and Dattilam at the foundation levels, I realized that Sadjamagrama scheme was the miniaturised code of our ancient heritage of 22 srutis music. As I decoded, i found that the range and depth of music was so enormous that i couldn't reconcile that our relatively primitive ancestors could have had so much of mathematical and technological vision. That's how i formulated a hypothesis that some Ancient (very advanced) Civilization could have passed passed down such a rich treasure to us. Otherwise, personally, i donot subscribe to the concept of 'raleism', although i enjoyed reading those articles now (thanks to srkris!).
My research work is very unique in that so far during the past several millennia of music traditions, the codes installed by the Ancient civilization over their music assets had remained unbroken. My humble contribution in this domain is to demystify all these codes.
Unless more inquisitive musicologists get involved in this work and extend their healthy criticisms, further development of this 'quantum jump' in music now uncovered, won't be realized by our contemporary music performers.
i would request the Readers to extend their kind patronage.
Srini Nambirajan
My research work is very unique in that so far during the past several millennia of music traditions, the codes installed by the Ancient civilization over their music assets had remained unbroken. My humble contribution in this domain is to demystify all these codes.
Unless more inquisitive musicologists get involved in this work and extend their healthy criticisms, further development of this 'quantum jump' in music now uncovered, won't be realized by our contemporary music performers.
i would request the Readers to extend their kind patronage.
Srini Nambirajan
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srkris
- Site Admin
- Posts: 3497
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 03:34
Another research is needed to find out whether they were indeed as primitive as we think they are. I dont think they were primitive at all. This is just an excuse to call ourselves advanced.As I decoded, i found that the range and depth of music was so enormous that i couldn't reconcile that our relatively primitive ancestors could have had so much of mathematical and technological vision.
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msakella
- Posts: 2127
- Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16
CORRELATION OF SHRUTIS & SWARAS
The Shruti aspect of our music has become cumbersome due to different versions of applications by different people increasing the ambiguity of the topic to the common aspirant. Me too have learnt one of the ambiguous versions but, once, when pointed out by Mahamahopadhya & Rashtrabhooshana Dr. R. Sathyanarayana, the walking encyclopaedia of our Indian Culture of Mysore, I have found the mistakes of it and learnt only the needful from him as, always, my main concentration was only on Talaprastara. Now, I shall try to bring out the same to make only a brief understanding of the subject.
Since ancient times, in all the treatises of music, the same Shloka ‘chatuschatuschatuschaiva shadjapanchamamadhyamaah dvedvenishaadagaandhaarau threesthree rishabhadhaivatau’ was prescribed in regard to 22 Shrutis and as per this Shloka while Shadja, Panchama and Madhyama are of 4 Shrutis each, Nishada and Gandhara are of 2 Shrutis each and Rishabha and Dhaivata are of 3 Shrutis each. Thus, among the 7 notes:
Shadja consisting of 4 Shrutis occupies the 4th Shruti
Rishabha -do- 3 -do- 7th -do-
Gandhara -do- 2 -do- 9th -do-
Madhyama -do- 4 -do- 13th -do-
Panchama -do- 4 -do- 17th -do-
Dhaivata -do- 3 -do- 20th -do-
Nishada -do- 2 -do- 22nd –do-
In the ancient times while the Svaras, Shadja, Panchana & Madhyama consisting of 4 Shrutis each were moved to the backward Shrutis only, the Svaras, Gandhara & Nishada consisting of 2 Shrutis were moved to the forward Shrutis and the Svaras, Rishabha & Dhaivata consisting of 3 Shrutis were not moved at all. In those days Svaras were treated as ‘Shuddha’ if they do not have any change either in their place of Shruti or in their consisting number of Shrutis and they were treated as ‘Vikrita’ if they have any change either in their place of Shruti or in their consisting number of Shrutis or both. This change of the place of Shruti or the consisting number of Shruti may occur either by its self movement of Svara or by the movement of the adjacent note.
In the ancient times the Svaras have undergone many changes of their places or constituent Shrutis and finally at the time of Venkatamakhi, while Shadja and Panchama have been fixed on the 4th and 17th Shrutis respectively, without any movement at all, the remaining Ri, Ga, Ma, Dha and Ni have been given only forward movement and treated as Shuddha Svaras as long as they remain on the 7th, 9th,13th, 20th & 22nd Shrutis respectively and as Vikrita-svaras if they move forward. Since then this method is in vogue as mentioned hereunder.
OLD VERSION: MODERN VERSION:
Sl.No. Note Sl.No. Note
of & its of & its
Shruti frequency Shruti frequency
---------------------- -----------------------
04 - S - 1 01 - S - 1
05 - --- 02 - R1 - 256/243
06 - --- 03 - R2 - 16/15
07 - Ra - 16/15* 04 - R3 - 10/9
08 - --- 05 - R4 - 9/8
09 - Ga & Ri - 9/8* 06 - G1 - 32/27
10 - Gi & Ru - 32/27* 07 - G2 - 6/5
11 - --- 08 - G3 - 5/4
12 - Gu - 5/4* 09 - G4 - 81/64
13 - Ma - 4/3* 10 - M1 - 4/3
14 - --- 11 - M2 - 27/20
15 - --- 12 - M3 - 45/32
16 - Mi - 45/32* 13 - M4 - 729/512
or 64/45
17 - P - 3/2* 14 - P - 3/2
18 - --- 15 - D1 - 128/81
19 - --- 16 - D2 - 8/5
20 - Dha - 128/81* 17 - D3 - 5/3
21 - --- 18 - D4 - 27/16
22 - Na & Dhi - 5/3* 19 - N1 - 16/9
01 - Ni & Dhu - 16/9* 20 - N2 - 9/5
02 - --- 21 - N3 - 15/8
03 - Nu - 15/8* 22 - N4 - 243/128
S - 2 S - 2
Thus, while Shadja and Panchama have become motion-less, among the remaining Rishabha, Gandhara, Dhaivata and Nishada have consisted of three kinds each - Ra, Ri, Ru; Ga, Gi, Gu; Dha Dhi, Dhu; Na, Ni, Nu - and Madhyama consisted of two kinds, Ma & Mi.
Among them, while the place of the first Gandhara on the 9th Shruti had also become the place of the second Rishabha and being called Panchashruti-rishabha (not Chatusshruti-rishabha at all) by being on the 5th Shruti from Shadja, the place of the second (Sadharana) Gandhara on the 10th Shruti had also become the place of the 3rd Rishabha and Shatshruti-rishabha by being on the 6th Shruti from Shadja. Later, though the third (Antara)Gandhara was placed on the 11th Shruti in the ancient times, it was later shifted to the 12th Shruti as the 12th Shruti, being a Svayambhoosvara, is more pleasing to the ear than the 11th Shruti.
In the same manner, while the place of the first Nishada on the 22nd Shruti had also become the place of the second Dhaivata and being called Panchashruti-dhaivata (not Chatusshruti-dhaivata at all) by being on the 5th Shruti from Panchama, the place of the second (Kaishiki) Nishada on the 1st Shruti had also become the place of the 3rd Dhaivata and being called Shatshruti-dhaivata by being on the 6th Shruti from Panchama. Later, though the third (Kakali) Nishada was placed upon the 2nd Shruti in the ancient times, it was later shifted to the 3rd Shruti as the 3rd Shruti being a Svayambhoosvara is more pleasing to the ear than the 2nd Shruti.
In respect of Madhyama, while the Madhyama on 13th Shruti had become Shuddha Madhyama, the 16th Shruti was taken as the place of the second Madhyama and named as Prati-madhyama as, in the ancient times, the Panchama of Madhyama-grama was placed on the 16th Shruti and was the representative (Pratinidhi) of the Panchama of that Madhyama-grama.
Thus, among the 22 Shrutis, while the 4th, 7th, 9th, 10th 12th, 13th, 16th, 17th 20th, 22nd, 1st and 3rd Shrutis are Svaragata-shrutis, the remaining 5th, 6th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 15th, 18th, 19th, 21st and 2nd Shrutis are Antargata-shrutis.
The Svaragatasthanas (while the Svaras are 7 their Sthanas, which are called Svarasthanas, should also be 7. But, as the Svarasthanas are 12, to make a difference between the names of Svara and Svarasthana, they should be called as Svaragatasthanas only but not as Svarasthanas) of a Sthayi have to be obtained by the following five acoustical methods together as mentioned in our old treatises:
1. Ascending cycle of fifths (Shadja-panchama-bhava of upward movement).
2. Descending cycle of fourths (Shadja-madhyama-bhava of downward movement).
3.Triangulation method coinciding of each Svaragatasthana from its consonants of the fifth (Panchama),
fourth (Madhyama) and Major 3rd (Antara-gandhara).
4.Combination of Panchama, Madhyama and Antara-gandhara Bhavas.
5.Method of harmonics.
A list of shades of Shrutis of Svaragatasthanas, mostly used in our Karnataka music, obtained by the above five methods have been furnished along with their frequency ratios and cents in ‘Music of Madhva Monks of Karnataka’ written and published in 1988 by Dr. R.Sathyanarayana, a living and walking encyclopaedia of our Indian Culture of Mysore (this list is not furnished here as the form of any such list is taking an entirely different shape in these posts). When, some years back, I requested him to teach me the much needed details of 22 Shrutis (as I have always been used to concentrate much upon Talaprastara only) he told his son, R.S.Nandakumar, a Civil Engineer, Astrologer and a great Talavadhana Vidwan to bring a Veena, a calculator and a cloth-tape. Then as per his instructions I have measured the length of the strings on Veena in a particular manner and with some calculations I could obtain the following frequencies of the 12 notes:
While the entire Sa string, between the 1st fret and the bridge, is of 93.00 cm.:
Ra is 5.30; 93.00 – 5.30=87.70; 93.00/87.00=1.06=16/15.
Ga is 10.00; 93.00 – 10.00=83.00; 93.00/83.00=1.120=9/8.
Gi is 14.50; 93.00 – 14.50=78.50; 93.00/78.50=1.184=32/27.
Gu is 18.25; 93.00 – 18.25=74.75; 93.00/74.75=1.244=5’4 (1.25).
Ma is 22.75; 93.00 – 22.75=70.25; 93.00/70.25=1.33=4/3.
Mi is 26.75; 93.00 – 26.75=66.25; 93.00/66.25=1.404=45/32 (1.406).
Pa is 30.50; 93.00 – 30.50=62.50; 93.00/62.50=1.49=3/2 (1.5).
Dha is 34.00; 93.00 – 34.00=59.00; 93.00/59.00=1.576=128/81 (1.580).
Na is 37.25; 93.00 – 37.25=55.75; 03.00/55.75=1.668=5/3 (1.666).
Ni is 40.25; 93.00 – 40.25=52.75; 93.00/52.75=1.763=16/9 (1.777).
Nu is 43.00; 93.00 – 43.00=50.00; 93.00/50.00=1.86=15/8 (1.875).
Sa is 46.20; 93.00 – 46.20=46.80; 93.00/46.80=1.987=2.
Prior to Venkatamakhi while the Svaras consisting of an interval of 8 or 12 Shrutis and having the same number of fixed Shrutis were defined as Samvadis and this relation was restricted only to apply to Shuddha-svaras, Venkatamakhi extended this Samvadi relation to Vikrita-svaras too ( at any time Shuddha Madhyama and Shuddha Nishada have never been treated as Samvadis even though they are having an interval of 8 Shrutis as they are of 4 and 2 Shruti constituents respectively). Thus, Gi-Ni, Gu-Nu, Ra-Mi become Samvadis.
In the same manner Ra-Ga, Dha-Na, Ru-Gu, and Dhu-Nu having an interval of a single Shruti are treated as Vivadis of whose usage enhances the beauty of Vadi.
Critical points on the modern division of Shrutis:
In his Sangita Parijata, Ahobala mentioned that these 22 Shrutis have to be obtained by the cycle of fifths (Shadja-panchama-bhava) only. As some discrepancies have arisen by this method no other musicologist prior to him or even after him had accepted his version. But, Govindacharya, in his Sangrahachoodamani, included this version in the form of Sanskrit Shlokas and attributed it to Lord Shiva and Parvathi as a conversation between them took place in Skanda Purana, only to attain easy acclamation. This method is being followed by many of which the defects of it are given hereunder.
1.In this method, as only cycle of fifths (Shadja-panchama-bhava)was taken into account, all the 22 Shrutis have come Svaragatasthanas only and among them Sahja and Panchama carry one Svaragatasthana each and the remaining five, Ri, Ga, Ma, Dha & Ni carry four Svaragatasthanas each. By this method all the 2 Shrutis have been transformed into 22 Svaragatasthanas which is a blunder.
2. In fact, while there are two Svaragatasthanas for each one of Ri, Ga, Ma, Dha & Ni, in this modern method, each of these Svaragatasthanas have been allotted of two Shrutis. Thus, as there is a single Shruti interval for each two of these Svaragatasthanas, every two Svaragatasthanas have become Vivadis, while in the traditional method only Ra-Ga, Ru-Gu, Dha-Na and Dhu-Nu have become Vivadis.
3. In the traditional method, the place of the first (Shuddha)Gandhara and the second (Panchashruti) Rishabha is one the same and in the same manner the place of the first (Shuddha) Nishada and the second (Panchashruti) Dhaivata is also one and the same. But, in the modern method, while the place of the first (Shuddha) Gandhara is on the first Shruti of the four Shrutis allotted to Gandhara, the place of the second Rishabha is on the fourth Shruti of the four Shrutis allotted to Rishabha. And, in the same manner, while the place of the first (Shuddha) Nishada is on the first Shruti of the dodur Shrutis allotted to Nishada, the place of the second Dhaivata is on the fourth Shruti of the four Shrutis allotted to Dhaivata. This is a glaring blunder of this modern division of 22 Shrutis in which the co-ordination between the theory and practicals is damaged and they both contradict each other.
Otherwards, while, in the traditional method, both the second Rishabha and the first Gandhara occupy the same 5th Shruti from Shadja, in the modern method, the second Rishabha and the first Gandhara occupy the fourth and fifth Shrutis respectively from Shadja. And, in the same manner, while, in the traditional method, both the second Dhaivata and the first Nishada occupy the same 5th Shruti from Panchama, in the modern method, the second Dhaivata and the first Nishada occupy the fourth and fifth Shrutis respectively from Panchama. This is a great blunder.
4. As per the traditional method and also as per the measurements of the Veena-mela:
(i) while the 7th Shruti is the place of the first Rishabha and its frequency ratio is 16/15, in this modern method, this ratio is of 6th Shruti,
(ii) while the 9th Shruti is the place of the first Gandhara or second Rishabha and its frequency ratio is 9/8, in this modern method, this ratio is of the 8th Shruti,
(iii) while the 10th Shruti is the place of the second Gandhara or the third Rishabha and its frequency ratio is 32/27, in this modern method, this ratio is of the 9th Shruti,
(iv) while the 12th Shruti is the place of the third Gandhara and its frequency ratio is 5/4, in this modern method, this ratio is of the 11th Shruti,
(v) while the 16th Shruti is the place of the second Madhyama and its frequency ratio is 45/32, in this modern method, this ratio is of the 15th Antaragata-shruti,
(vi) while the 20th Shruti is the place of the first Dhaivata and its frequency ratio is 128/81, in this modern method, this ratio is of the 18th Antargata-shruti,
(vii) while the 22nd Shruti is the place of the first Nishada or the second Dhaivata and its frequency ratio is 5/3, in this modern method, this ratio is of the 20th Shruti of the first Dhaivata,
(viii) while the 1st Shruti is the place of the second Nishada or the third Dhaivata and its frequency ratio is 16/9, in this modern method, this ratio is of the 22nd Shruti and
(ix) while the 3rd Shruti is the place of the third Nishada and its frequency ratio is 15/8, in this modern method, this ratio is of the 2nd Antargatra-shruti.
As all these above are great blunders of this modern method, this method is irrelevant, irrational and self-contradictory.
Very-important-note: I, personally, feel it as the responsibility of the elders to do the needful to remove any ambiguity of any subject while imparting its knowledge to our kids in the process of preservation our culture for posterity. Like-minded people must flock together to work accordingly with devotion and dedication in doing the same in the interest of our community.
amsharma.
The Shruti aspect of our music has become cumbersome due to different versions of applications by different people increasing the ambiguity of the topic to the common aspirant. Me too have learnt one of the ambiguous versions but, once, when pointed out by Mahamahopadhya & Rashtrabhooshana Dr. R. Sathyanarayana, the walking encyclopaedia of our Indian Culture of Mysore, I have found the mistakes of it and learnt only the needful from him as, always, my main concentration was only on Talaprastara. Now, I shall try to bring out the same to make only a brief understanding of the subject.
Since ancient times, in all the treatises of music, the same Shloka ‘chatuschatuschatuschaiva shadjapanchamamadhyamaah dvedvenishaadagaandhaarau threesthree rishabhadhaivatau’ was prescribed in regard to 22 Shrutis and as per this Shloka while Shadja, Panchama and Madhyama are of 4 Shrutis each, Nishada and Gandhara are of 2 Shrutis each and Rishabha and Dhaivata are of 3 Shrutis each. Thus, among the 7 notes:
Shadja consisting of 4 Shrutis occupies the 4th Shruti
Rishabha -do- 3 -do- 7th -do-
Gandhara -do- 2 -do- 9th -do-
Madhyama -do- 4 -do- 13th -do-
Panchama -do- 4 -do- 17th -do-
Dhaivata -do- 3 -do- 20th -do-
Nishada -do- 2 -do- 22nd –do-
In the ancient times while the Svaras, Shadja, Panchana & Madhyama consisting of 4 Shrutis each were moved to the backward Shrutis only, the Svaras, Gandhara & Nishada consisting of 2 Shrutis were moved to the forward Shrutis and the Svaras, Rishabha & Dhaivata consisting of 3 Shrutis were not moved at all. In those days Svaras were treated as ‘Shuddha’ if they do not have any change either in their place of Shruti or in their consisting number of Shrutis and they were treated as ‘Vikrita’ if they have any change either in their place of Shruti or in their consisting number of Shrutis or both. This change of the place of Shruti or the consisting number of Shruti may occur either by its self movement of Svara or by the movement of the adjacent note.
In the ancient times the Svaras have undergone many changes of their places or constituent Shrutis and finally at the time of Venkatamakhi, while Shadja and Panchama have been fixed on the 4th and 17th Shrutis respectively, without any movement at all, the remaining Ri, Ga, Ma, Dha and Ni have been given only forward movement and treated as Shuddha Svaras as long as they remain on the 7th, 9th,13th, 20th & 22nd Shrutis respectively and as Vikrita-svaras if they move forward. Since then this method is in vogue as mentioned hereunder.
OLD VERSION: MODERN VERSION:
Sl.No. Note Sl.No. Note
of & its of & its
Shruti frequency Shruti frequency
---------------------- -----------------------
04 - S - 1 01 - S - 1
05 - --- 02 - R1 - 256/243
06 - --- 03 - R2 - 16/15
07 - Ra - 16/15* 04 - R3 - 10/9
08 - --- 05 - R4 - 9/8
09 - Ga & Ri - 9/8* 06 - G1 - 32/27
10 - Gi & Ru - 32/27* 07 - G2 - 6/5
11 - --- 08 - G3 - 5/4
12 - Gu - 5/4* 09 - G4 - 81/64
13 - Ma - 4/3* 10 - M1 - 4/3
14 - --- 11 - M2 - 27/20
15 - --- 12 - M3 - 45/32
16 - Mi - 45/32* 13 - M4 - 729/512
or 64/45
17 - P - 3/2* 14 - P - 3/2
18 - --- 15 - D1 - 128/81
19 - --- 16 - D2 - 8/5
20 - Dha - 128/81* 17 - D3 - 5/3
21 - --- 18 - D4 - 27/16
22 - Na & Dhi - 5/3* 19 - N1 - 16/9
01 - Ni & Dhu - 16/9* 20 - N2 - 9/5
02 - --- 21 - N3 - 15/8
03 - Nu - 15/8* 22 - N4 - 243/128
S - 2 S - 2
Thus, while Shadja and Panchama have become motion-less, among the remaining Rishabha, Gandhara, Dhaivata and Nishada have consisted of three kinds each - Ra, Ri, Ru; Ga, Gi, Gu; Dha Dhi, Dhu; Na, Ni, Nu - and Madhyama consisted of two kinds, Ma & Mi.
Among them, while the place of the first Gandhara on the 9th Shruti had also become the place of the second Rishabha and being called Panchashruti-rishabha (not Chatusshruti-rishabha at all) by being on the 5th Shruti from Shadja, the place of the second (Sadharana) Gandhara on the 10th Shruti had also become the place of the 3rd Rishabha and Shatshruti-rishabha by being on the 6th Shruti from Shadja. Later, though the third (Antara)Gandhara was placed on the 11th Shruti in the ancient times, it was later shifted to the 12th Shruti as the 12th Shruti, being a Svayambhoosvara, is more pleasing to the ear than the 11th Shruti.
In the same manner, while the place of the first Nishada on the 22nd Shruti had also become the place of the second Dhaivata and being called Panchashruti-dhaivata (not Chatusshruti-dhaivata at all) by being on the 5th Shruti from Panchama, the place of the second (Kaishiki) Nishada on the 1st Shruti had also become the place of the 3rd Dhaivata and being called Shatshruti-dhaivata by being on the 6th Shruti from Panchama. Later, though the third (Kakali) Nishada was placed upon the 2nd Shruti in the ancient times, it was later shifted to the 3rd Shruti as the 3rd Shruti being a Svayambhoosvara is more pleasing to the ear than the 2nd Shruti.
In respect of Madhyama, while the Madhyama on 13th Shruti had become Shuddha Madhyama, the 16th Shruti was taken as the place of the second Madhyama and named as Prati-madhyama as, in the ancient times, the Panchama of Madhyama-grama was placed on the 16th Shruti and was the representative (Pratinidhi) of the Panchama of that Madhyama-grama.
Thus, among the 22 Shrutis, while the 4th, 7th, 9th, 10th 12th, 13th, 16th, 17th 20th, 22nd, 1st and 3rd Shrutis are Svaragata-shrutis, the remaining 5th, 6th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 15th, 18th, 19th, 21st and 2nd Shrutis are Antargata-shrutis.
The Svaragatasthanas (while the Svaras are 7 their Sthanas, which are called Svarasthanas, should also be 7. But, as the Svarasthanas are 12, to make a difference between the names of Svara and Svarasthana, they should be called as Svaragatasthanas only but not as Svarasthanas) of a Sthayi have to be obtained by the following five acoustical methods together as mentioned in our old treatises:
1. Ascending cycle of fifths (Shadja-panchama-bhava of upward movement).
2. Descending cycle of fourths (Shadja-madhyama-bhava of downward movement).
3.Triangulation method coinciding of each Svaragatasthana from its consonants of the fifth (Panchama),
fourth (Madhyama) and Major 3rd (Antara-gandhara).
4.Combination of Panchama, Madhyama and Antara-gandhara Bhavas.
5.Method of harmonics.
A list of shades of Shrutis of Svaragatasthanas, mostly used in our Karnataka music, obtained by the above five methods have been furnished along with their frequency ratios and cents in ‘Music of Madhva Monks of Karnataka’ written and published in 1988 by Dr. R.Sathyanarayana, a living and walking encyclopaedia of our Indian Culture of Mysore (this list is not furnished here as the form of any such list is taking an entirely different shape in these posts). When, some years back, I requested him to teach me the much needed details of 22 Shrutis (as I have always been used to concentrate much upon Talaprastara only) he told his son, R.S.Nandakumar, a Civil Engineer, Astrologer and a great Talavadhana Vidwan to bring a Veena, a calculator and a cloth-tape. Then as per his instructions I have measured the length of the strings on Veena in a particular manner and with some calculations I could obtain the following frequencies of the 12 notes:
While the entire Sa string, between the 1st fret and the bridge, is of 93.00 cm.:
Ra is 5.30; 93.00 – 5.30=87.70; 93.00/87.00=1.06=16/15.
Ga is 10.00; 93.00 – 10.00=83.00; 93.00/83.00=1.120=9/8.
Gi is 14.50; 93.00 – 14.50=78.50; 93.00/78.50=1.184=32/27.
Gu is 18.25; 93.00 – 18.25=74.75; 93.00/74.75=1.244=5’4 (1.25).
Ma is 22.75; 93.00 – 22.75=70.25; 93.00/70.25=1.33=4/3.
Mi is 26.75; 93.00 – 26.75=66.25; 93.00/66.25=1.404=45/32 (1.406).
Pa is 30.50; 93.00 – 30.50=62.50; 93.00/62.50=1.49=3/2 (1.5).
Dha is 34.00; 93.00 – 34.00=59.00; 93.00/59.00=1.576=128/81 (1.580).
Na is 37.25; 93.00 – 37.25=55.75; 03.00/55.75=1.668=5/3 (1.666).
Ni is 40.25; 93.00 – 40.25=52.75; 93.00/52.75=1.763=16/9 (1.777).
Nu is 43.00; 93.00 – 43.00=50.00; 93.00/50.00=1.86=15/8 (1.875).
Sa is 46.20; 93.00 – 46.20=46.80; 93.00/46.80=1.987=2.
Prior to Venkatamakhi while the Svaras consisting of an interval of 8 or 12 Shrutis and having the same number of fixed Shrutis were defined as Samvadis and this relation was restricted only to apply to Shuddha-svaras, Venkatamakhi extended this Samvadi relation to Vikrita-svaras too ( at any time Shuddha Madhyama and Shuddha Nishada have never been treated as Samvadis even though they are having an interval of 8 Shrutis as they are of 4 and 2 Shruti constituents respectively). Thus, Gi-Ni, Gu-Nu, Ra-Mi become Samvadis.
In the same manner Ra-Ga, Dha-Na, Ru-Gu, and Dhu-Nu having an interval of a single Shruti are treated as Vivadis of whose usage enhances the beauty of Vadi.
Critical points on the modern division of Shrutis:
In his Sangita Parijata, Ahobala mentioned that these 22 Shrutis have to be obtained by the cycle of fifths (Shadja-panchama-bhava) only. As some discrepancies have arisen by this method no other musicologist prior to him or even after him had accepted his version. But, Govindacharya, in his Sangrahachoodamani, included this version in the form of Sanskrit Shlokas and attributed it to Lord Shiva and Parvathi as a conversation between them took place in Skanda Purana, only to attain easy acclamation. This method is being followed by many of which the defects of it are given hereunder.
1.In this method, as only cycle of fifths (Shadja-panchama-bhava)was taken into account, all the 22 Shrutis have come Svaragatasthanas only and among them Sahja and Panchama carry one Svaragatasthana each and the remaining five, Ri, Ga, Ma, Dha & Ni carry four Svaragatasthanas each. By this method all the 2 Shrutis have been transformed into 22 Svaragatasthanas which is a blunder.
2. In fact, while there are two Svaragatasthanas for each one of Ri, Ga, Ma, Dha & Ni, in this modern method, each of these Svaragatasthanas have been allotted of two Shrutis. Thus, as there is a single Shruti interval for each two of these Svaragatasthanas, every two Svaragatasthanas have become Vivadis, while in the traditional method only Ra-Ga, Ru-Gu, Dha-Na and Dhu-Nu have become Vivadis.
3. In the traditional method, the place of the first (Shuddha)Gandhara and the second (Panchashruti) Rishabha is one the same and in the same manner the place of the first (Shuddha) Nishada and the second (Panchashruti) Dhaivata is also one and the same. But, in the modern method, while the place of the first (Shuddha) Gandhara is on the first Shruti of the four Shrutis allotted to Gandhara, the place of the second Rishabha is on the fourth Shruti of the four Shrutis allotted to Rishabha. And, in the same manner, while the place of the first (Shuddha) Nishada is on the first Shruti of the dodur Shrutis allotted to Nishada, the place of the second Dhaivata is on the fourth Shruti of the four Shrutis allotted to Dhaivata. This is a glaring blunder of this modern division of 22 Shrutis in which the co-ordination between the theory and practicals is damaged and they both contradict each other.
Otherwards, while, in the traditional method, both the second Rishabha and the first Gandhara occupy the same 5th Shruti from Shadja, in the modern method, the second Rishabha and the first Gandhara occupy the fourth and fifth Shrutis respectively from Shadja. And, in the same manner, while, in the traditional method, both the second Dhaivata and the first Nishada occupy the same 5th Shruti from Panchama, in the modern method, the second Dhaivata and the first Nishada occupy the fourth and fifth Shrutis respectively from Panchama. This is a great blunder.
4. As per the traditional method and also as per the measurements of the Veena-mela:
(i) while the 7th Shruti is the place of the first Rishabha and its frequency ratio is 16/15, in this modern method, this ratio is of 6th Shruti,
(ii) while the 9th Shruti is the place of the first Gandhara or second Rishabha and its frequency ratio is 9/8, in this modern method, this ratio is of the 8th Shruti,
(iii) while the 10th Shruti is the place of the second Gandhara or the third Rishabha and its frequency ratio is 32/27, in this modern method, this ratio is of the 9th Shruti,
(iv) while the 12th Shruti is the place of the third Gandhara and its frequency ratio is 5/4, in this modern method, this ratio is of the 11th Shruti,
(v) while the 16th Shruti is the place of the second Madhyama and its frequency ratio is 45/32, in this modern method, this ratio is of the 15th Antaragata-shruti,
(vi) while the 20th Shruti is the place of the first Dhaivata and its frequency ratio is 128/81, in this modern method, this ratio is of the 18th Antargata-shruti,
(vii) while the 22nd Shruti is the place of the first Nishada or the second Dhaivata and its frequency ratio is 5/3, in this modern method, this ratio is of the 20th Shruti of the first Dhaivata,
(viii) while the 1st Shruti is the place of the second Nishada or the third Dhaivata and its frequency ratio is 16/9, in this modern method, this ratio is of the 22nd Shruti and
(ix) while the 3rd Shruti is the place of the third Nishada and its frequency ratio is 15/8, in this modern method, this ratio is of the 2nd Antargatra-shruti.
As all these above are great blunders of this modern method, this method is irrelevant, irrational and self-contradictory.
Very-important-note: I, personally, feel it as the responsibility of the elders to do the needful to remove any ambiguity of any subject while imparting its knowledge to our kids in the process of preservation our culture for posterity. Like-minded people must flock together to work accordingly with devotion and dedication in doing the same in the interest of our community.
amsharma.
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cmlover
- Posts: 11498
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
Thanks sarmaji for that clear exposition.
could you please elaborate the process. Was it by using the ears or using a tuning fork or other measures?Then as per his instructions I have measured the length of the strings on Veena in a particular manner and with some calculations I could obtain the following frequencies of the 12 notes:
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msakella
- Posts: 2127
- Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16
Dear brother-member, cmlover, It is very easy to do this. I shall define in which way I did and anybody can do it on his/her own (get a cloth-tape marked with inches and centimeters which is generally used by any tailor and a calculator). At first I have measured the length in between the 1st fret of the Veena which is called Meru and the Veena’s main bridge with the help of the cloth-tape and it is of 93 cm. (this may slightly differ from one Veena to another Veena) Then I have measured the length in between the 1st fret and the 2nd fret of Ra i.e., Ri-1 and it is of 5.30 cm. Then taking the help of the calculator subtracted this Ra’s length from the Sa’s length ( 93.00 – 5.30=87.70). Then, again with the help of the calculator, I have divided the Sa’s length with the above remainder length (93.00 / 87.70 = 1.06). Then, again with the help of the calculator, I have taken the frequency ratio 16/15 of Ri-1 and the result is 1.06 which is perfectly tallied (sometimes this may differ slightly with the original frequency ratio of the note we are dealing) I did the same to each note and found these results. Please try yourself and tell me. amsharma.
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cmlover
- Posts: 11498
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
Dear Sarmaji
Thanks for the clarification. That is the way the vINa is constructed. Whereas the western music is based on equal temper scale our CM is based on natural scale. Not quite since Gi is 32/27 (instead of 6/5) and Dha is 128/81 (instead of 8/5) which are one 'comma' lower. Could you explain the basis for this oddity!
Thanks for the clarification. That is the way the vINa is constructed. Whereas the western music is based on equal temper scale our CM is based on natural scale. Not quite since Gi is 32/27 (instead of 6/5) and Dha is 128/81 (instead of 8/5) which are one 'comma' lower. Could you explain the basis for this oddity!
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msakella
- Posts: 2127
- Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16
Dear brother-member, cmlover, Sorry, I am not wellversed in ’22-Shrutis’. What I have already learnt recently I have reproduced for the benefit of our aspirants. I have learnt a very little of it from Dr. R.Sathyanrayana of Mysore just before my retirement as Principal as I wanted to clear off the ambiguity of my students appearing for Diploma Examination. At this age I cannot and do not concentrate much of any unfamiliar subjects. amsharma.
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SREENI NAMBIRAJAN
- Posts: 12
- Joined: 20 Mar 2009, 19:50
thanx srkris for displaying greater understanding of my work on the ancient music of 22 srutis. I concede to the criticism made by nick and its echo from nayaki. The web-site didn't come up the way i desired. The designer as well as my directions were probably amaturish! I am really no expert in designing web sites too. Plese forget and forgive the aesthetics of the web-site and address only its contents pl. As the web-site is not adequately responsive i had resorted to posting some 'blogs' and 'presentations' on the net as a supplementary effort. May i request u all to peruse my blog: 'ancient culture of 22 srutis music'. Pl follow the link: http://22srutis-nambirajan.blogspot.com/ and also the link on 'search for ancient music':http://searchforourancientmusic.blogspot.com/ and http://www.esnips.com/web/SearchforOurAnceintMusic. I have spent months of work to develop the details and i am sure the members would encourage me by spending a few valuable minutes of theirs over these articles.
I would have responded to ur comments earlier; however, my pop-up devices didn't indiacate ur comments having been raised several months back. My apologies pl.
Regards,
Sreeni Nambirajan
I would have responded to ur comments earlier; however, my pop-up devices didn't indiacate ur comments having been raised several months back. My apologies pl.
Regards,
Sreeni Nambirajan
Last edited by SREENI NAMBIRAJAN on 30 Sep 2009, 19:43, edited 1 time in total.