Bhairavi / Mukhari / MAnji / Huseni

kamalamba · Post by **kamalamba** » 06 Feb 2009, 04:22

this might have been discussed in the past; if so my apologies.

Is there some "easily accesible" information on the key distinguishing factors between these ragas.

I can see clear features in mukhari and huseni. MAnji and Bhairavi seem to be much closer.

Experts views would be appreciated

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 06 Feb 2009, 07:06

Actually Dikshitar's maanji has the antara gandharam, and so can be easily made out.

Shyama Shastri's brovavamma doesn't have that marker.

I think Gopalakrishna Bharathi's "varugalamo" has the gandharam in the caraNam, towards the end.

But I think you should just memorise "brovavamma" and maybe varugalamo, and look for similarities with it.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 09 Feb 2009, 23:41

Quick laymanish tips for BHairavi versus Mukhari - look out for SRM and PDS/PNDS in Mukhari
Useni - RGMRGSR, is one phrase that NDNP/PDN,NDD,P, are others.
Manji - yet to figure out!

More scholarly opinions would be good to have

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 10 Feb 2009, 10:18

Thanks Vijay for that precise info. What are the swaras that are typically sung as the flourish in Mukhari at the end of pallavi, anupallavi and end of the song?

I usually do not get confused between (h)useni with others in that set. Strangely, I find Useni aesthetics to have some similarity to Ananda Bhairavi, though not enough to get confused between the two. That may be just me.

vainika · Post by **vainika** » 10 Feb 2009, 16:25

srikant1987 wrote:Actually Dikshitar's maanji has the antara gandharam, and so can be easily made out.

Not in all versions. Semmangudi/MSS version is close to the SSP notation, and doesn't have G3.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 10 Feb 2009, 17:14

VK flourishes for Mukhari - I am not sure one can identify precise phrase endings for Pall, Anupall, Charanam etc. - this would vary from song to song. Phrases like NDD,P and variations is common for anchoring phrases. GRGS is used for Gyam of bhagyam in the Pallavi of Entha Ninne. Anupallavi ends on SRM...these are the usual endings from what I have seen...Karu Baru has a more dramatic halt on the Madhyamam which makes it my favourite krithi!

Yeah Useni has a strong Ananda Bhairavi flavour and like you there is just enough different so that you don't confuse the 2! I would say the same for Bhairavi-Mukari as well. In fact the first time I heard the latter, I was berating the vidwan (I forget who) for killing Bhairavi!

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 10 Feb 2009, 21:38

@ vijay
Oh, I thought brahma kadigina paadamu was the most beautiful bhairavi I ever heard.

I still like mukhari a little more than bhairavi.

@ vainika
I've heard Dikshithar's maanji from Vidushi Kalpakam Swaminathan only. I will try to get SSI or MS's version and listen.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 10 Feb 2009, 21:38

Can anyone give some alapanais of maanji (without G3) and bhairavi, and test us all?

I think that'll be the best way to learn!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 10 Feb 2009, 23:01

most mAnjis (except Kalpakam mami's) I have heard don't have G3. Basically, I think with Dikshitar's interpretation per SSP, it is a more straightforward s r2 g2 m1 p d2 n2 s / s n2 d1 p m1 g2 r2 s - but the proximity with a major raga like bhairavi with an almost identical structure is perhaps the reason for extra, extra caution. Also, I think the ni is handled more softly and subtly compared to bhairavi (e.g. not sure that the assertive n~ n~ d p or p d ni~~ d* etc. that we see in bhairavi can be employed in mAnji?). I remember some discussion on manji earlier where we talked about the possible difference in usage of ni.

Besides that signature rgmrgsr...., huseni, I think also employs s-p and p-S in succession a lot. The s-p, p-s is also in Anandabhairavi and thus the similarity. However, I think unlike anandabhairavi, ri is very important in huseni (similar to bhairavi, manji, mukhari etc.)

From what I can make out, I think one characteristic of mukhari is a long caressing downward slides to ma (from ni or da). Also the one from ga to sa (with some hovering on ri). Sivakamasundari is another excellent composition in this raga.

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 11 Feb 2009, 00:10

vijay wrote:VK flourishes for Mukhari - I am not sure one can identify precise phrase endings for Pall, Anupall, Charanam etc. - this would vary from song to song.

Thanks Arun and Vijay. I am with you on Karu Baru that it provides a sparkling variation on Mukhari including the bright upper sthayi start. With uppacharamu start being similar, I can see some rasikas getting the overlap with Bhairavi but quickly it goes on to estabish the Mukhari identity. Of course, sivakamasundari, elavathara, enthannine sabari, enraikku siva kripai, saranam iyappa and one I only recently came across, an MS rendition which starts with the Raghavendra mUla manthra round out the different ways of portraying Mukhari in various laya formats.

For the flourish, Let us consider the following Elavatara by NCV ( my first serious intro into CM and first mukhari song I ever heard ):
http://sangeethamshare.org/hariharan/55 ... garaja.mp3

At the end of each section, NCV does the flourish on 'E....'. What are the swaras and gamakams for that? Interestingly, many artists, for other mukhari songs as well, use a similar flourish. Given the smooth descent, I have a feeling that what Arun mentioned covers this prayoga. It is quite elusive and I find it difficult to get it just right.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 11 Feb 2009, 00:27

At the end of each section, NCV does the flourish on 'E....'. What are the swaras and gamakams for that? Interestingly, many artists, for other mukhari songs as well, use a similar flourish. Given the smooth descent, I have a feeling that what Arun mentioned covers this prayoga.

yes. The slide down (preceded by pndS or some combo) is sort of like Sndma - where the ma is taken as a caressing slide from da. It is quite common a flourish indeed.

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 11 Feb 2009, 02:45

here is an experiment/test:

Listen to http://arunk.freepgs.com/tmp/guessit.wav

There are two very short raga snippets - among the ones discussed above. Identify - or atleast find which would be the most probable.

Note that I have made the snippets deliberately short, starting from pa and moving downwards. This was mainly because as I was listening to the songs, I thought I could tell them apart at the start itself. But then I knew the song/raga as before listening and I want to test whether that had a role to play. So this is a test to see if others are able to tell the ragas (instinctively or otherwise).

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 11 Feb 2009, 02:55

I instantly pegged the first one as Huseni. The second one was quite ambigous for me... Mukhari?

kamalamba · Post by **kamalamba** » 11 Feb 2009, 02:58

Arun is it

1. Useni and 2. Mukhari.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 11 Feb 2009, 03:29

funny. You guys got it backwards i.e. 1 is mukhari, and 2 is huseni.

And it was the mukhari clip that I identified immediately. This was in 2 separate cases, where the starting phrases were very similar. It was almost like only p m g r s where p, m, g and ri were gently rocked - in a way that made it so mukarish to me. Since this could be in all the ragas, I was sort of amazed why I thought it just was only mukhari - but then i guess that was me, as you guys thought it was huseni

.

Now the huseni alapana (hard to find!), actually starts with "ri" and then goes to the rgmsr.... which is a dead give away (actually if you listen closely, there is a left over of the r..... from the violinist that overlaps the pa). But immediately following was this phrase starting with pa which I thought I could use in the experiment. Now this phrase in isolation definitely seems ambiguous and may seem to fit in mukhari except for that (i could be mistaken) the middle flourish has a "r g m g r" which wouldnt be allowed by mukhari. But it isnt definitely classical huseni.

Now the conclusion is that me knowing the raga name beforehand, most probably acted as a disambiguation factor. But note that bhairavi/manji/anandabhairavi etc. did not enter in the picture for all three of us.

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 11 Feb 2009, 03:53

Arun:

The second one did have some Huseni flavor for me but I thought it was ambiguous because the first one felt like Huseni also. In fact I was going to write if it was a trick question that both are Husenis. With very little conviction, I put down the second one as Mukhari. On listening again after reading your answers, I do hear a bit more Huseni in the second one than the first one. So I speculate that the order somehow mattered. If you had reversed the order, I think I would have gotten the huseni right and considered the other one as ambiguous

Regarding ananda bhairavi, on first listen I did get that feeble AB, Huseni cross over aesthetics on the second snippet but of course there was not enough there to consider that as AB. But I should have latched on to that clue and considered the second one as Huseni. Again, the first one played the "right" tricks

BTW, On third and fourth listens, I was getting vibes different from what I wrote above and so it is all quite confusing now

Hope other members listen to the snippet without reading our answers and act as independent subjects in this experiment.

(actually if you listen closely, there is a left over of the r..... from the violinist that overlaps the pa)

I hear that now ( which would have given it away as huseni no doubt )

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 11 Feb 2009, 04:19

Definitely Mukhari.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 11 Feb 2009, 04:30

yes. This has more more obvious hints e.g. final slide to sa is like rgs

kamalamba · Post by **kamalamba** » 11 Feb 2009, 04:38

The new post sounded like Mukhari straightaway.

Maanji seems the most mysterious (at least for me).

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 11 Feb 2009, 06:19

another one: http://arunk.freepgs.com/guessit3.mp3

I find the first one surprisingly tricky in isolation (considering what it is) as it speaks of the similarities rather than differences.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 11 Feb 2009, 07:56

Arun: The above link did not work, I modified it as this ( based on the previous ones ) http://arunk.freepgs.com/tmp/guessit3.mp3 and it worked.

Ananda bhairavi and Manji ?

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 11 Feb 2009, 08:51

vasanthakokilam wrote:Arun: The above link did not work, I modified it as this ( based on the previous ones ) http://arunk.freepgs.com/tmp/guessit3.mp3 and it worked.

I also feel it is Anandabhairavi and mAnji.

Arun,if you want to give the next sample mix all four , don't just restrict it to two.Give atleast 2 days gap and then give the answer please...

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 11 Feb 2009, 11:16

Yeah I missed pretty much the whole thing and can"t download in office either

srinivasrgvn · Post by **srinivasrgvn** » 11 Feb 2009, 14:13

Hello,
The best way to learn the differentiations is to listen to lec-dems.
In Sangeethapriya, there is a lec-dem on "allied ragas" by T.M.Krishna. There, he discusses the above mentioned ragas in detail(in the second part). Please listen to it. He has also discussed other allied ragas like darbar-nayaki, shri-manirangu-madhyamavathi.
LINK:

http://www.sangeethapriya.org/Downloads ... K-Shimoga/

srinivasrgvn · Post by **srinivasrgvn** » 11 Feb 2009, 14:18

For Bhairavi-Mukhari confusions, listen to Raagarasika's podcasts(EPISODES 25,26,27 and 28). Smt.Vidya explains it beautifully.
LINK:
http://feeds.feedburner.com/Raagarasika

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 11 Feb 2009, 21:07

srivivasrgvn - Thanks for the links!

vk/rajesh - both of you got it right. Now the question is - why isnt the first one huseni? Also why the second one is not bhairavi? (i dont necessarily have the answers

)

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 11 Feb 2009, 21:50

Arun: The first one did not give off Huseni aesthetics. Is the swara sequence commonly used in both ragas? ( What is it? ). That may shed some info as to whether the way the swaras are rendered make the difference.

On the second one, after the first pause, whatever was sung gave a distinct manji feel. I was a bit surprised that I got that feel readily since I have not thought about Manji aesthetics in years.