Preposterous responses - The Malladis' turn

rajagopal · Post by **rajagopal** » 11 Dec 2008, 08:11

The latest issue of Kumudam has an interesting conversation with the Malladis after their concert at the Bharath Sangeetha Utsav.

After singing for 2 and a half hours, they sang just a single tamil song of 2 and a half minutes.

Q: Is this fair?

A: We don't know too many tamil songs. Anyway why should we sing tamil songs?

Q: Is it possible to sing tamil songs for 2 and a half hours in a concert in Vijayawada?

A: How many tamil songs did Semmangudi sing?

Q: Ok even if I accept that for arguments sake, are you singing 'Semmangudi' music?

A: We don't have time to speak to you.

The writer then concludes by saying that the Malladis need the acceptance from the Chennai sabhas but do not want Tamil!

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 11 Dec 2008, 08:18

kmrasika · Post by **kmrasika** » 11 Dec 2008, 08:42

I am inclined to agree that these questions are rather ridiculous. The Malladi Brothers hail from a great lineage of musical tradition and do have a wonderful repertoire. In addition, there other geographical sites in India where Carnatic Music has flourished besides tamizh nADu. Artistes from different regions also bring specialities of works of composers unknown, thereby I think it is rather crass to accuse the pair of just belittling tamizh.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 11 Dec 2008, 08:50

This goes to prove that trivial pursuits are just that. Asking any kind of questions for the sake of asking without having a purpose of enlightening the reader is usless--mere 'season'al thing, in my thinking.
I wish too that the brothers sang more tamizh songs. May be, they wish that too! They may not be very confident about their pronounciation--surely, they are not against tamizh! When they were asked these questions, they were rushing to get somewhere? They are not adept at giving interviews? I don't know.
Anyway, these are page fillers, and yes, seasonal items in a popular magazine--are just trivia and no more. Masala stuff written light heartedly and are meant for entertainment (?). This sort of a thing is not worth any discussion--as if they speak the convictions of the artistes. I don't think so.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 11 Dec 2008, 08:54

Absolutely; these questions are just asinine. Not singing Tamil songs is not in any way an affront to the language or the culture of Tamil Nadu! Their mother tongue is Telugu and they do great justice in singing rare Thyagaraja songs. On the other hand, there are artistes like Sanjay who hail from Chennai and do justice to rare Tamil songs. Why must we try to homogenise artistes when it is the variety they offer that draws us to their various concerts?

Sathej · Post by **Sathej** » 11 Dec 2008, 08:58

The questions are preposterous, as Cool ji says, not the answers. Ridculous questions. Just because they sing in Chennai, why should they sing Tamil songs? They are just Carnatic Musicians. As long as they sing classically adhering to Carnatic Music tradition, why bother if they sing Thyagaraja, Purandaradasar or Papanasam Sivan. Its a non issue in my opinion as long as their music is classical and pleasing.
Sathej

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 11 Dec 2008, 09:23

Absolutely poor questioning, was the reporter from NDTV .But I have never heard malladi singing more than one tukkadA in thamizh. Would be nice to hear a viruththam or a submain in thamizh (certainly language mix of,telugu,kannada, thamizh and sanskrit in a single concert adds lot of delight to heterogeneous rasikas)

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 11 Dec 2008, 09:28

mridhangam · Post by **mridhangam** » 11 Dec 2008, 10:08

Music has no language gentlemen.

JB

Dhanavendra · Post by **Dhanavendra** » 11 Dec 2008, 10:30

hi everybody. let the season begin on a wonderful note. Let us all be aware that this is our festival. Leave the language issue to self interested politicians. Let us not be self indulgent rasikas. Already Carnatic music finds very little space everywhere. Kindly let us avail this opportunity to listen to all languages. If any rasika wants tamil songs let his or her choose artists who do that. There are plethora of artists who do that. But our rasikas are very choosy. They want to listen to only popular ones or make a dig at them. Please such threads may be reserved for non-season concerts. Lets not vitiate the already crowded season by such language issue threads. Kindly close this thread in the interest of everybody.

rajagopal · Post by **rajagopal** » 11 Dec 2008, 10:30

If the Malladis had just said that they do not know enough tamil songs, nothing more is there to be asked. But following up with "Why should we sing tamil songs?" only shows arrogance and a lack of respect for a beautiful language. And what is the need to bring Semmangudi into the argument? This is about Malladi and not about Semmangudi. For their information Semmangudi sang many more tamil songs than the entire generation of musicians from Andhra Pradesh. And what about the stalwarts like Ariyakudi, Musiri, GNB, MSS, DKP, MLV and many many more who sang innumerable tamil songs. If music has no language then they can sing in Chinese for all they care. But this kind of disrespect is completely unwarranted.

Dhanavendra · Post by **Dhanavendra** » 11 Dec 2008, 10:43

dear rajagopal. You point is pointless during December Season. Come on be a good host. This is the time when the world is watching. Already such language issues are creating enough ruckus every year during Tyagaraja aradhana festival by radical organisations who conduct parallel tamil programmes in Thiruvaiyaru. Remember Madras Presidency was from Visakapatnam to far end of Thanjavur and little bit of now Karnataka. During the Trinity's time Madras was just not Chennai like now. Hence Madras had Tamil, Telugu and Kanada belonging to one Presidency. Thats why music flourished so much. Please dont add fuel to fire. Kumudam, every body knows is known for more vambu than substance, especially during music seasons. I request you to write something about what artists do than what artists dont do. You would be doing a great service to Carnatic Music

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 11 Dec 2008, 10:46

@ rajagopal

Don't go by what the magazine reports. They can literally put words into your mouth, quote out of context and generally do anything to create a moutain out of a mole hill. The best thing is to ignore these issues and enjoy the music.

rajagopal · Post by **rajagopal** » 11 Dec 2008, 11:04

So a thread about atheism can be discussed for 170 posts? But this must be closed? Where is democracy? rajumds - Are you trying to say that the Malladis did not make that quote at all? Or if they did are you willing to accept it? Why should the issue of tamil songs be such a difficult subject for people to debate? I am only questioning the quote of the Malladis and the attitude it reflects. As far as I am concerned the Malladis have consistently ignored tamil as a language for carnatic music and this has been highlighted in the kumudam article.

girish_a · Post by **girish_a** » 11 Dec 2008, 11:05

I dislike getting into language related discussions, but are there any WorldSpace radio fans on this forum who have noticed that one does not get to hear Kannada songs on the Shruti channel as much as Telugu and Tamil compositions?

If you don't believe me, tune in to Naadopasana and check out for yourself.

Sathej · Post by **Sathej** » 11 Dec 2008, 11:08

The Malladis are perfectly justified in singing what they are comfortable with. Language is a non-issue for music. How many of the present day artistes sing a Dasar Padam in every concert? or some Malayalam composition by Swathi Thirunal? Its all best left to the artsite. If one wants to hear pieces of a particular language, one should choose such an artiste who sings them. Recognition of artistes is based on the quality of their singing and not on whether they sing predominantly in this language or the other.
Sathej

s_hari · Post by **s_hari** » 11 Dec 2008, 11:18

If a musician performs abroad, or north india, is he expected sing in english or hindi? Ridiculous... If tamil magazines can do any good to classical music, it is better they shut their mouth and don't cover any events.

-hari

Dhanavendra · Post by **Dhanavendra** » 11 Dec 2008, 11:32

dear rajagopal
So it is a copy cat situation. that thread about atheism was about November Fest. Now your grouse is about a concert during December season which has about 2500 concerts in a whole month. A wide variety where language is a non-issue. Kindly be balanced in approach. During December season lets listen to what artists perform in right earnest and leave language issues alone. If you have grouse against artists because of a narrow-minded approach boycott them if you like but don't undermine the mood of the season. Lets be united.

sbopparaju · Post by **sbopparaju** » 11 Dec 2008, 12:07

I find it difficult to attach any credibility to the reported quesiton & answer sequence..I find it difficult to believe that such questions were asked - even more difficult to believe are the answers attributed to the Malladi brothers who I know for sure are quite balanced and mature in the way they deal with people. I certainly want to assert that music - specially carnatic music - completely transcends linguistic barriers - in fact it is so very sublime that it people can enjoy it irrespective of their age or cultural, regional or religious affiliations!

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 11 Dec 2008, 12:18

Usually journalists ask such questions hoping that the artiste will blunder into unchartered territory in the heat of the moment. Malladis seem to have fallen in the trap. The fact that we are talking about it here indicates some level of success for the journalist.

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 11 Dec 2008, 12:22

Rajagopal

My point is that without having a full transcript of the interview let's not get into a very sensitive issue. Media be it print or visual nowadays go overboard for "exclusive" coverage and will create situation for themselevs to thrive. This was my refrain even in the other thread.

This issue had been debated at length earlier in the forum.

We go to a concert to hear wholesome music. If you are very particular about listening to Tamil songs only, avenues are available to you. This topic would have been valid if Malladi brothers sang only non tamil kritis in a Tamil Isai Sangam concert.

Many of the artists from TN have huge fan following in Kerala. They became popular there , not by singing Malayalam songs but by singing what they we good at.

If Kumudam is interested in Tamil, let them first try to correct the pronounciation of the artists and announcers of Tamil TV channel.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 11 Dec 2008, 12:26

Preposterous questions, preposterous thread --- as most seem to agree

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 11 Dec 2008, 12:43

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 11 Dec 2008, 13:16

coolkarni wrote:For decades and decades we have seen our beautiful Telugu ,being butchered in Cutcheries and now when we thought you would make up for that error , all that you do is ask us to sing in your language !!

... and butcher that too

I've heard Malladi brothers sing a Tamil song (a tillana) ... they are indeed not comfortable with it.

It is best if singers are just allowed to do what they do best.

rajagopal · Post by **rajagopal** » 11 Dec 2008, 13:30

Dhanavendra - The concert in question was during the Bharath Sangeetha Utsav of Carnatica in the month of NOvember, not decemebr season.

sureshvv - Excellent point! I just wanted to highlight that the Malladis by saying what they said looked extremely arrogant and insensitive to tamils.

rajumds - This is not about what I want. This is about what 'they' want to do.

Finally my only point is that the Malladis generally do not favor tamil songs and it is very sad if they ask 'why they should sing tamil'

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 11 Dec 2008, 14:38

What they want to do , --- delight Chennai music lovers with good music. They are certainly doing it.

mahesu · Post by **mahesu** » 11 Dec 2008, 15:47

I dont think they would be doing anything wrong if they learnt few tamils songs more and please the audience by that. Take the example of Hyd. brothers who scored on this front. Initially their Tamil pronounciation was not that good, but people accepted as they would in case of babies' speech (mazhalai). This was mainly because the audience liked the music of Hyd. brothers so much that they did not mind the pronounciation. But Hyd brothers constantly improved upon on their tamil songs reportire and on pronounciation too. What stops Malladi bros. from taking this path. It is far better than giving arrogant statements.

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 11 Dec 2008, 16:07

coolkarni wrote:Now just yesterday I attended a concert of a DKJ disciple , only to hear krithis (now I was not distinguishing between languages here , but still feeling the need for something different) sung time and again by DKJ.All of them !
But was there creativity of a different kind that enthused me .Yes .It was there with an extended alapana of Amrithavarshini.

Looking forward to hearing more about this concert, Kji...?

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 11 Dec 2008, 16:31

rajumds hits the nail on the head for me:

We go to a concert to hear wholesome music. If you are very particular about listening to Tamil songs only, avenues are available to you. This topic would have been valid if Malladi brothers sang only non tamil kritis in a Tamil Isai Sangam concert.

Yes, of course there is such a thing as music for a market. I suspect that they might not go down well in London, where the Carnatic 'market' consists largely of Sri Lankans who want Tamil songs included in their concerts.

I find it strange that I, as someone who is, politically, somewhat removed from right-wing thinking, often talk about 'the market' in a music forum. This is not the first time, and I doubt that it will the last!

rajagopal: it is all about what you want. You will decide whose concerts you attend. Perhaps more importantly, you will decide whose concerts you attend twice --- I once read the advice to a salesman that a sale is only really made when the customer comes back again. But it is not at all necessary for every musician to make 'a successful sale' to every audience member. Those who enjoy will come back; those who felt something lacking will not.

As I understand it, you have every right to restrict your concert going to the performers you enjoy, and you have every right to your own reasons for that --- but, if you went to a concert by a singer known for their rendition of classical German music, would you claim it preposterous that they not only sang no Italian, but dismissed suggestions that they might? And no, I don't think it would change anything if the concert was in Italy.

If any slight of Tamil language was intended, then I can understand emotional response, but the nub of this seems to be what the performers feel harmony with, what worlks for them. Perhaps this got lost in their hurry.

Cool, interesting philosophical and literary thoughts. Conrad has a story of a foreign sailor, shipwrecked on the shores of England, who is treated as a dangerous madman simply because he cannot make himself understood.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 11 Dec 2008, 19:05

Hailing from tamizh nADu, I left my land decades ago, and to this day, whenever I come back here, I see signs of deterioration in pronunciation and adulteration in the language. Even though I do not watch tamizh channels except when there is CM, I cannot avoid this. In a recording of a CM concert on the radio, I heard the announcer say: rAga mALigai (garland became mansion!).
While it is true that the Malladis have a very limited repertoire of tamizh krutis, as pointed out by someone, they are not biased or are arrogant about the superiority of telugu compositions. I don't think they conveyed such a sentiment to the reporter either.
Some report!
Since tamizh singers have sung (and slaughtered) telugu kritis and kannada songs for a long while, we do not even give it a thought. I hear clear enunciation when Malladis sing in telugu. They are hesitant about doing injustice to tamizh compositions, perhaps. They only know too well how some tamizh vocalists pronounce telugu and do not want to do the same to tamizh. They do not seem to be arrogant either.
Even for the tamizhs, old tamizh words (which they are not familiar with) can pose a problem. Even familiar words and the understanding of them is not enough. Musical phrasing can pose a problem once in a while in that a particular word has to be split, distorting the word. All good krutis in all our regional languages need to be sung in every part of the world wherever CM is listened to. A concert goer has the freedom to pick and choose the performances he or she is keen on, and leave others alone.
As we start the season with great expectations and excitement, let us celebrate our togetherness in music appreciation. Of course, we have our favorites and we differ in our views and our taste in CM. We grow as the artistes do too. Each year brings surprises and learning experiences. We are a great phenomenon called rasikatvam which comes in all shades and dimensions. All the same, united we all are...

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 11 Dec 2008, 19:31

Well said, Arasi. For me, those are the last and finest words on the topic.

poornashadjam · Post by **poornashadjam** » 11 Dec 2008, 19:40

Hi,

It is sad that such things are said by the brothers openly . Dont know whether it is ignorance or arrogance. Its better in their own good and the musical cause not to utter such things.

It is no secret that , this part of the country( Tamil nadu) has been safe guarding the musical treasures of the trinities and many others so far and will be doing that in future too. ( My own guru Sri Susarla sivaram ji has said this to me once ). There are many from this part of the world, who have infact learnt other languages for better appreciation of music and musical values.

Tamil Music has its own greatness and sweetness . (Why Tamil alone , I would say other Languages like Kannada , Malayalam , Bengali , Urdu , Arabi , Lebanese etc .In fact I have recorded a Quaran verse - you can hear a beautiful raga alapanai sort of in that too ) As musicians we have to be open to compositions in all languages . Only then you can say you have grown. Else you stagnate yourself both personally and musically.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 11 Dec 2008, 21:11

My god, this season has no shortage of controversies. Who would think that the low profile Malladis would find themselves in the middle of a spat like this?!!

Anyway, my take since I've had a few things to say on the language issue in the past. Personally lyrics feature very on the list of things I look for in a concert. On the very rare occasions when I am aware of the lyrics (say an MD composition largely on gods and their features) it adds something to the proceedings. I also like the inherest musicality of Thyagaraja's lyrics. Apart from that, so long as I get regular doses of Ituvanti, Bhajeham, Thaye or some such religious-sounding word, I am quite content...

Having said that, there is still the question the performer needs to grapple with. Should they stick to languages in which they are in command of the meaning and the lyrics? Or should they explore compositions strictly on the basis of musical merit? I think it should be clear from the above, that I would take the latter approach. Just like CM without Thyagaraja or MD cannot be imagined, the musician who excludes Papanasam Sivan or GKB is that much the poorer for it.

I say this, not because of any instrinsic importance of Tamizh as a language, but because of the number of compositions in the language that deserve the attention of any serious carnatic musician. I have to say, then, that the Malladis avoidance of Tamizh krithis would, to some extent, curtail their development as musicians. I do acknowledge that some of the greatest musicians, including one my all-time favourites, Voleti, have also largely refrained from singing Tamizh kritis.

Also, from what has been posted, it would seem that their viewpoints could have been conveyed in a more becoming manner. However, they were quite possibly victims of sensationalism, as Rajumds points out. Unlike a TMK who is used to the limelight and the likely reaction to his opnions, the Malladis have some way to go in acquainting themselves with the uglier facets of journalism. As an admirer of their music and lineage, and being used to their generally humble and down-to-earth demeanour, I don't think I can ever bring myself to think of them as arrogant. The questions were, in all likelihood, posed in a provocative manner.

To sum up, I wouldn't accuse the Malladis of arrogance and further grant that avoiding unfamiliar languages in the interest of enunciation is not an argument without merit. Personally, however, I think it comes at a very high musical cost and I do hope that the Malladis will consider singing the numerous beatuful compositions in Tamizh language at some point in time. This has nothing to do with where they are singing. If Vijayawada or Hassan were to become the centres of the carnatic world in a few years, I would still recommend that Tamizh (or for that matter Kannada) krtiis should be learnt and sung.

Girish has a curious PoV on Kannada in Worldspace. Kannada compositions will have to be content with subordinate status in the carnatic world for the time being (just like Tamizh). The only major body of work in the language is not musically notated (although I under the ragas of DAsara krithis have been indicated). So there is no reason why anyone should expect more than 5-10% of the songs in that language (maybe even lower than that). The pecking order in carnatic music at the moment is: Telugu - Sanskrit - Tamizh - Kannada. This may well change in a century or so - but folks will have to learn to live with it for the present, no matter where they come from.

girish_a · Post by **girish_a** » 11 Dec 2008, 23:21

On Vijay's note about the pecking order of languages in Carnatic music, I think the Telugu-Sanskrit-Tamil-Kannada order is not universal. It depends on where you are located geographically.

Here in Karnataka, one hardly hears Tamil compositions in Kutcheris. Devaranamas get more prominence. So Kannada and Tamil change places depending on where you are.

I am not aware which language has the greater number of Kritis, but the fact is that there is no dearth of compositions in Kannada and a channel like Shruti should really be doing more for Kannada compositions than what they are doing now. They certainly have a slant which doesn't exactly lean towards Kannada.

I wrote to them once about it, but a polite reply was all I got.

Moreover, Shruti is a radio channel; they only need recordings, not repertoire. Giving Kannada a little more prominence in their programmes shoudn't really be difficult for them.

kadambam · Post by **kadambam** » 11 Dec 2008, 23:42

Interesting times,

Earlier, we had a prominent musician who mentioned that the content is not important in appreciating CM, as there is inherent beauty in the grammar itself. Today, there is an uproar against Malladi brothers for not giving importance to the content part.

This is true invasion of artist's space. An artist shouldn't have any restrictions or constraints in his journey of creative exploration. If Malladis are able to sustain their identity/individuality even without venturing Sivan's compositions or GKB compositions, then that is credit to them.

Vijay Siva was posted a similar question during Jaya TV Margazhi Mahotsavam, i think last year or the year before that. In his reply, he said, many years ago there was this hit hindi film 'Hum Apke Hai Kaun' and 8 lakh (??) CDs were sold in TN. How come you are able to appreciate film music without understanding the lyrics?

Thanks to youtube.. here's the link
http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=Pf6HqoFMWF4

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 11 Dec 2008, 23:49

Girish - the programming should broadly reflect the percentage of compositions in each language - I don't see them leaning for or against towards any particular language.

I am not saying there aren't good compositions in the language nor do I have anything against the language - it sounds very sweet to my ears as compared to Tamizh at least...but concert worthy compositions are relatively few - other than Dasar krithis, one is hard pressed to think of any and even these, as I pointed have been largely re-tuned with varying degrees of success. Even eminent Kannada composers like Vasudevacharya and the Raja of Mysore have, for whatever reason, chosen to compose in Sanskrit or Telugu.

I have been to plenty of concerts in Bangalore and while Tamil krithis are indeed rare and most concerts have a DAsar krithi or two, the dominant languages are still Telugu and Sanskrit (for that matter, even in Chennai, this is true) And even if Bangalore concerts have a larger proportion of Kannada krithis, which is quite understandable, why should a national broadcaster be expected to reflect this regional trend?

Sreeni Rajarao · Post by **Sreeni Rajarao** » 11 Dec 2008, 23:56

I am compelled to jump in and state my frustration on kannaDa compositions not getting their due.

I do not know about Shruti/Worldspace becasue I do not have access to that, but when I read a concert review, I always look to see how many kannaDa kritis were rendered.

I am immediately disappointed when I see that not even one kannaDa composition was in the list of items rendered.

I have seen concerts reivews where big names have given 4.5 hour, 5 hour concerts with ZERO kannaDa item.

And then my disappointment / frustration is doubled when I see that even karnAtaka based artistes give concerts outside of karnaTaka with ZERO kannaDa compositions on thier list. This is our own (kannaDiga) problem.

And, I must add there are many many hundreds of compositions available outside of the dAsa sAhitya, while acknowledging that dAsa sAhitya is indeed a BIG source for renditions. There are many shiva sharaNa compositions (BasavaNNA, Akka MahAdEvi, AllamaPrabhu, .........) already set to classical rAgas.

I just recently "discovered" some jaina Bhakti gItegaLu (songs, kritis) that my Father Veena Raja Rao had set to traditional carnatic rAgas!! (yet another pioneering work, in my opinion)

As I am writing this, I am asking myself if I am asking for too much by asking for renditions of kannaDa compositions.

I am telling myself, I don't need to have any second thoughts about asking for more kannaDA renditions.

Just as Vijay feels more beautiful Tamil songs need to be brought into light, I feel more kannaDa songs need to be brought into light. They are languishing in the dark, mainly due to a lack of willingness by performers.

My first appeal is to the karnAtaka based artistes who know the kannaDa language to not feel shy or inferior in rendering kannaDa kritis.

(I usually refrain from writing emotional reactions. This one, I have decided not to hold myself back).

Sreeni Rajarao

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 11 Dec 2008, 23:56

For once this is not a concert discussion thread and has been posted under General Discussions. This has nothing to do with the merits of the concerts of the season or on the start of the sesaon. Rajagopal is only factually reporting and expressing his views. If you disagree with him say so, but do not ask for the discussions to be closed. If the Webmaster were to oblige for the requests for closure even if by a 'cluster ' of rasikas I consider it totally undemocratic and I will be out of this Forum forthwith. I disagree with the closure of the previous Topic which was inoffensive but started rambling. I wonder why he closed it since it will die a natural death when interest flags.

CM is not non-controversial. The purpose of a Forum is to decently discuss issues which will enhance our appreciation of the art-form and promote growth in new directions. I know there are many who want to shut the doors on CM with the Trinity and who resent any discussion of any development otherwise. Are we supposed to burn all other compositions of other vaggeyakaras or shoot them for attempting to tread on the holy Trinity grounds. I agree there are enough compositions by the Trinity for several life times but CM is unbounded. There were times during the early part of 20th century when prominant vidvans would walk out if anything other than Thyagaraja were to be sung. Papanasam Sivan did struggle to gain recognition and now he is considered respectable after some greats have tuned his compositions in respectable CM. Unless vidvans start singing the compositions (even the status of the language in CM) is doomed. At least the financial incentive of a large fanhood is persuading some vidvans o sing new kritis. CM is language oriented unlike HM or WM. You cannot create Rasikas from plain Music alone. That is one of the reasons the instrumentalists enjoy only a second-class status in CM.

I disagree about the questions to Malladis being improper which would indeed be asked by any commoner in Chennai but the answers do smack of arrogance. There havee been occasions (during states reorganization days when artistes were pelted at vishakapatnam for singing Tamil songs ), language fanaticism is not a private property of the Tamils. But requesting CM in their own language is a plea to enjoy the divine CM and that should not be shot down!

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 11 Dec 2008, 23:59

Kadamabam - what you say is true. But just as rasikas should be neutral to the language of the music, so should musicians (making allowance for small biases towards one's mother tongue - like Sanjay for instance).

The onus is equally on them, to seek out the best compositions, irrespective of the language of compositions. By ignoring Tamizh krithis, the Malladis are losing out on a rich body of work which they would immensely benefit from (and which would eventually benefit us rasikas too), - that was my limited point.

I don't think anyone intends to violate the artiste's space. We are merely voicing our opinions which they are free to accept or ignore as they choose (if at all they bother to visit this forum!). As I have noted, they have a valid defence against not singing Tamizh compositions - only I am not too sure I entirely agree with the logic behind it.

SSK · Post by **SSK** » 12 Dec 2008, 01:44

I personally think that any artist in carnatic music should have vast repertoire of Telugu and Sanskrit and Kannada kriti's stemming from works Purandara Dasa and the enire Dasa Sampradaya, Tyagaraja, Dikshithar, Syama Sastry, Kshetragna, Pallavi Shesha Iyer, Pallavi Gopala Iyer, Maharaja's such as Swathi Tirunal, Wodeyar's,, Patnam Subramanya Iyer, and so on... But they should also significant collection of tamil krithis stepping Papanashanam, Gopalakrishna Bharathi, Arun Girinathar, as well as malyalam, hindi and probably Bengali. Few popular artists have adpoted a range of languages in their concerts irrespective of locations.

In general any one (artist or rasika alike) should excersize caution when they say things like "did Semmangudi do this? or Madura Mani do that? because the caliber of the artists of yesteryears, is some thing that is potential desired state to be achieved by artists of today. It requires dedication, hardwork and less distraction.

I agree with every one that the belief that getting some stamp of approval from Chennai, is worth anything. Carnatic music much like any other art form can flourish as long one is dedicated 500% of his time to excel at that. Artists get better with every concert they perform, every student that they teach day after day plus practice.

Dhanavendra · Post by **Dhanavendra** » 12 Dec 2008, 09:36

This thread has created a situation which politicians would be proud of. What they could not achieve is being achieved without sweat. A picture has been presented that no artist (or popular artist) is interested in Tamil composition. Sowmya's rendition of Bharatiyar's songs are ever soothing. Raji Gopalakrishnan's songs of Gopalakrishna Bharati are so filled with Bhavam. Sanjay Subramaniam chooses rare Tamil krithis for his December concerts. Sankari Krishnan has sung a 3 and a half hour concert all in Tamil right from the first song to the mangalam at Mumbai Tamil Sangam. One should listen to her ena thavam seidanai yasodha. Gayatri Venkataraghavan sings so many Tamil songs. Saketraman and so many others do it well. We rasikas must discern and choose. So CMlover's vehemence about 'burning bridges' is a new dimension not thought of even by radicals.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 12 Dec 2008, 09:58

Apart from some modern composers such as Arasi, composers of Carnatic music in Kannada have been so old that their verses have been retuned, just like Annamacharya's songs.

This is unlike much of modern Karnatik music, where the composer of the music and lyrics are the same -- with mild to wild changes in each of these

over the times.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 12 Dec 2008, 10:45

I am least worried about the status of Tamil in CM. Performers have been brainwashed into thinking that unless they sing mostly Trinity Kritis it will no longer be approved as genuine CM. If a concert is filled with all Tamil songs then it is derided upon. Why not sing HMB, Wodeyar, Vasudevachar, Swati as main pieces in the concert rather than mere tokenism. Again there are talented composers (Arasi for one and there is Ramraj and the finest is our DRS who is a genius in fashioning lyrics and who has single-handedly elevated sanketi as a prime CM 'language', his Ramayana kriti is the crowning glory). No Performer of merit would be willing to sing these gems unless they are bribed by the vaggeyakaras. I mean it literally since one of my (late) friend who has composed fine sanskrit songs on Buddha which were literary gems went all over Chennai requesting Performers to sing his pieces and they demanded a fabulous sum to sing them in public! Couple of them were SK's. None of these vaggeyakaras demand copyright or Royalty for their works but only want CM to be propagated and appreciated using their creations. In fact some of them were musicians themselves but never sang for renown or coveted concert glory but crafted kritis which adhere to CM grammar and on topics that will appeal to the tastes of all common folks some even on secular topics.

We need a change in the CM culture; and only enlightened Rasikas like our Forum Members can bring it to fruition!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 12 Dec 2008, 10:48

A point to ponder....
When we pursue trivial pursuits with such vigor, are we not the losers too? On the one hand we are so happy to be rasikAs. We have bountiful music to enjoy during the season. Other rasikAs in far away places would like to trade places with our complaining lot!

Don't care about some musicians? Don't drag yourselves to their concerts. Let those who enjoy their music do so without our carping about them. After all, we want the best from the performers and isn't it our responsibility to provide a pleasant atmosphere for them to sing in, play in?
Have a great season, all!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 12 Dec 2008, 11:03

Vous ÃƒÆ’Ã‚Âªtes beaucoup trop gÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â©nÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â©reux Arasi!
DÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â©jÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â rempli avec les fÃƒÆ’Ã‚Âªtes de NoÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â«l (ou est-il 'season') esprit!
Happy assaisonnement

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 12 Dec 2008, 11:14

I agree with CML Sir about not prematurely closing threads. The discussion on TMK was not offensive in any way and while there was some rambling (to which I also contributed), discussions were largely civil just as they are on this thread. I don't think comparisons to politicians are appropriate - most Tamilians on this forum have supported the Malladis' response. The day that happens in politics would be a great one indeed.

Responding to Sri Raja Rao's point - I am not in favour of bringing "tamizh krtihis to light" as an endeavour in itself. To reiterate -

1) There are plenty of popular Tamizh kritis that any serious artiste should consider learning. This is of course equally true of Kannada or most South Indian languages.

2) While seeking to learn new krithis the emphasis must be largely on musical merits of compositions..i. e let us say that a musician wishes to expand his repertoire in Thodi - he or she must look out for the best compositions from a musical standpoint, being largely blind to the language of composition. When she seeks to explore the works of relative obscure composers, musical merit must dictate choices. This need not preclude artistes from seeking out quality works in their mother tongue which is a natural human instinct.

3) Regarding the matter of presentation, a number of factors need to be kept in mind including geography. A concert full of tamil songs is unlikely to go down well in Karnataka unless it is thematic. Similarly on Gokulashtami, it is natural to expect a tilt towards songs on Krishna. I agree with SSK that all artistes should have a reasonably good repertiore in the predominant languages of CM.

Both rasikas and aristes need to be open minded for art to flourish. With reference to another one of Sri Raja Rao's points, I cannot remember the last time I counted the tamizh krithis in a concert or missed the absence of one. In fact, when I hear artistes announce an "all-tamizh concert" I can't help letting out a groan...

CML sir - you say that Papanasam Sivan's compositions have been tuned by artistes. I was under the impression that they were original. Is that not so?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 12 Dec 2008, 11:28

Vijay
I was given to understand that DKJ was involved in jointly tuning some pieces. I may be wrong. I know for sure that Thooran's and Ambujam krishna's were tuned by famous musicians. In fact barring the Trinity and HMB it is rare to find a vaggeyakara (not sure about OVK) who was also a Master Musician. I should not forget BMK....

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 12 Dec 2008, 11:32

Not forgetting MDR and GNB..
and of course LGJ (whose compositions are purely musical transcending any language...)

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 12 Dec 2008, 11:43

Does "The Trinity" include Subbaraya Shastri and Annaswamy Shastri (and other Dikshitars than Muthuswamy)? Still, I think Patnam was surely a vaggeyakara and a master musician too ... and some others from the Tyagaraja school.

There were actually many vaggeyakara-master musicians (OVK for sure was!), but the music they gave their compositions seem to be lost. Notation for music is more recent than notation for verses, and widespread recording even more recent.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 12 Dec 2008, 12:20

Well, a vaggeyakara has to be a "master musician" - he or she may not, however, be a popular musician.

I did not know about DKJ's role in Sivan's compositions - thanks for that info.