Hi there! And, a couple of questions...

twister · Post by **twister** » 05 Nov 2008, 16:25

Please, don't kill me for them!

1) The first question is about arohana - avarohana. It is said that these rules are strict, and I wonder does it mean that i CANNOT skip steps AT ALL? So, it is avoided for me to jump from Sa to Pa (and vice versa), for example? The general question, really, is HOW should I explore a raga? What should I do next, after I have adopted the aroha-avaroha flow from Sa (and from the every raga's swara)?

2) Is triton prohibited in Carnatic music? Or, there is no "triton" conception at all?

For example, if a series has the M2, then from the western point of view there is an interval of triton between Sa and Ma. So, can Ma be achieved directly after Sa (and vice versa)? Also, somewhere in the web I met the sentence that actually there is no concept of "interval" in Carnataca music, and rasika don't think of swaras as of intervals. So, please could you explain this moment in greater detail?

3) Is there a practical sense in separating a raga's series into two tetrachords (either conjunct, or disjunct)? It seems, this approach has its application in Hindustani music, but, of course, it is a completely different tradition. In brief, the idea of such a division is that a certain swara in the set has a strong counter in another tetrachord.

Thank you very much!!!

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 05 Nov 2008, 16:44

1. I wouldn't say Arohana/avarohana is very strict. Skipping notes is certainly permitted. Best way to explore a raga is to first study some compositions and see how the composer has created the piece. You will see what note phrases are allowable from the composition.

2. Whenever there are two distinct notes then there will be an interval between them. I am not aware of specific terms for these intervals in Carnatic music however. A number of our ragas have been derived using the cycle of 4ths and 5ths, which are based on intervals.

3. Ragas in Carnatic music are not divided in this sense.

twister · Post by **twister** » 05 Nov 2008, 16:59

Mohan,

Please could you clarify some nuances for me:

1) Where in the net can I get the clear notated examples of Carnatic ragas to learn? Or, should I only try to decrypt the ones which I like by my own ears? What is the best way to lern for beginner if there is no guru beside?

2) So, if I got you right there is no limitation on using triton? And the only thing which I must take into consideration in arohana-avarohana is to avoid the omitted tones...

And, what are the Jiva, Chaayaa and Nyasa swaras?

Finally, I am devoted to the Raag Bhairavi-A Raa by Ustad Nishat Khan. What does it mean - "A Raa"?

Thank you! =)

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 05 Nov 2008, 18:03

twister wrote: What does it mean - "A Raa"?

Could have been "a raag". "A Raa" makes no sense (at least to me).

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 05 Nov 2008, 19:13

Raag Bhairavi in Hindustani is very different from the Raga of the same name, but vastly superior depth and beauty, in carnatic.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 05 Nov 2008, 20:11

Isn't HM bhairavi similar to CM sindhubhairavi?

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 05 Nov 2008, 20:15

Yes rshankar, you are right, the Sindhu prefix indicating North India from where the river originates .

twister · Post by **twister** » 05 Nov 2008, 20:23

cienu wrote:Yes rshankar, you are right, the Sindhu prefix indicating North India from where the river originates .

Concerning SindhuBhairavi - what is its parent raga? Is it 20 Natabhairavi, or is it not a mela raga at all?

Where can I get its scheme?

twister · Post by **twister** » 05 Nov 2008, 20:27

vijay wrote:Raag Bhairavi in Hindustani is very different from the Raga of the same name, but vastly superior depth and beauty, in carnatic.

Yes, I already figured out that Bhairavi-A Raa by Ustad Nishat Khan is a Hindustani raag.

And the following: "In Sindhu Bhairavi, all of the swar, both komal and tivra are used." How can I distantly learn its basics? what to begin with?

Thanks!

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 05 Nov 2008, 21:46

Twister, Sindhu Bhairavi is not generally gamaka-laden but can be difficult to figure out initially because it does use so many swaras. Might I suggest that if you're starting out, you try ragas with a less ambiguous structure, like Mayamalavagowla, Shankarabharanam, Kalyani, etc?

If you're hell bent on learning Sindhu Bhairavi, an easy starting song is Tamburi Meetidava.

Out of curiosity, are you a vocalist or an instrumentalist? Have you had any formal training in either Hindustani or Carnatic music?

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 06 Nov 2008, 11:05

As Bilahari has pointed our, Bhairavi/Sindhu Bhairavi is said to use all the 12 notes of the octave. I am afraid I don't have much knowledge beyond that. I also second Bilahari's opinion (presuming that you are new to Indian music) - Indian classical music is best approached through ragas like Sankarabharanam (Bilawal), Mayamalavagowla (Bhairav) and Kharaharapriyaa (Kafi). In South Indian music, Mayamalavagowla is usually taught to beginners first.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 06 Nov 2008, 11:08

Although Sindhu Bhairavi defies Mela classification, it is placed in the 10th Mela - Natakapriya, at least as per my raga chart. I personally feel that Dhenuka (9th) comes closer although this is not based on any scientific reason.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 06 Nov 2008, 11:37

This is not according to any chart, but all along I have been pigeon-holing Sindhu Bhairavi as a lighter thodi. Meaning, if one plays Thodi without gamaka it sounds like Sindu Bhairavi. I realize that may not capture all the aspects of sindhu bhairavi.

Are there any rules about which of the 12 swaras are the main ones and which of the 5 are bhashanga swaras. If such a characterization is possible, are there rules on which prayoga/context these other 5 notes are used?

twister · Post by **twister** » 06 Nov 2008, 15:51

vijay wrote:I also second Bilahari's opinion (presuming that you are new to Indian music) - Indian classical music is best approached through ragas like Sankarabharanam (Bilawal), Mayamalavagowla (Bhairav) and Kharaharapriyaa (Kafi). In South Indian music, Mayamalavagowla is usually taught to beginners first.

Yes, but ragas you've listed are the Hindustani thaats. Don't want to cling to stiff ideas, you know, but I feel that South Indian raga has more abilities. In fact, it isn't so "stiff" as Northern. At first, the mela's exhausting complexity is rather intriguing for me, while the Norhtern thaat system quickly become boring.

As for Mayamalavagowla, it uses Ga3 and Ni3, so it is out of my instrument's possibilitie, as I play a common guitar - guitara vulgaris

Any way, thank you!

twister · Post by **twister** » 06 Nov 2008, 16:04

bilahari wrote:Twister, Sindhu Bhairavi is not generally gamaka-laden but can be difficult to figure out initially because it does use so many swaras. Might I suggest that if you're starting out, you try ragas with a less ambiguous structure, like Mayamalavagowla, Shankarabharanam, Kalyani, etc?

If you're hell bent on learning Sindhu Bhairavi, an easy starting song is Tamburi Meetidava.

Out of curiosity, are you a vocalist or an instrumentalist? Have you had any formal training in either Hindustani or Carnatic music?

I am an instrumentalist and I play the guitar without even access to the possibility of such a training, unfortuntely.

The swaras' quantity is not a big problem, really. The problem is in catching a motif, in collecting them throughout the net. Then, quite the contrary, it becomes interesting to explore it through the melody/rhythm cypher "coded" within it. So, as far as I am not allowed to play the gamakas properly (at least, all of them), may be I would try to dig some swara jugglery, you know =)

BTW, I've found the source of which I guess you are already tired - www.ecse.rpi.edu - the krithis is a thing i might say! =)

And, there is another question of a stupid kind: where can I get some tala audio samples for my humble training?

Thank you!

twister · Post by **twister** » 06 Nov 2008, 16:10

vijay wrote:Raag Bhairavi in Hindustani is very different from the Raga of the same name, but vastly superior depth and beauty, in carnatic.

Once again, I've to mention that in this raga rendition, there is a kind of a modulation was used - I've digged the web and found out that this is called Tirobhav and Avirbhav (out-of-tune and back-to-the-tune respectively). Can you cast light on this phenomenon please? Some examples, links maybe?

Greatly appreciate your help!

twister · Post by **twister** » 06 Nov 2008, 16:13

bilahari wrote:Twister, Sindhu Bhairavi is not generally gamaka-laden but can be difficult to figure out initially because it does use so many swaras. Might I suggest that if you're starting out, you try ragas with a less ambiguous structure, like Mayamalavagowla, Shankarabharanam, Kalyani, etc?

If you're hell bent on learning Sindhu Bhairavi, an easy starting song is Tamburi Meetidava.

Out of curiosity, are you a vocalist or an instrumentalist? Have you had any formal training in either Hindustani or Carnatic music?

BTW, Yaman is what I am polishing, too =)

Some hints?

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 06 Nov 2008, 17:09

VK am not sure but I suspect in case of Sindhu Bhairavi isolating bhashangas is not going to be very productive...but you are possibly right about it being closer to Thodi...

Twister, Carnatic and Hindustani scales are not different - a raga is not the same thing as a scale and the difference is perhaps more so, in Hindustani music. Within the scale you have many ragas, one or more of which may take the same notes as the scale (e.g Yaman That and Raga). In some cases the raga is different from the That (Marwa). The point being that while the scale is a set of notes, the definition of a raga is a more complex, if not impossible task

The same difference applies in Carnatic Music albeit to a lesser extent. SRGMD may seem like a valid usage for Mayamalavagowla but would in fact drag the musician right into the territory of Lalitha. Similarly PDS would be OK for Harikambhoji were it not for Kambhoji lurking around the corner. This is related to your first question: you can skip notes when rendering a raga - but you need to be careful about the outcome. But I take your point that Carnatic generally offers more flexibility within the scale than Hindustani where "pakkads" can be rigid (althogh they are known to vary across gharanas).

I see no reason why you cannot play Mayamalavagowla or G3/N3 on your guitar. These are the same notes that also occur in the Western (C Major?) scale. It is the Rishabam/Dhaivatham that are different. As I said, it is the same as the Hindustani Bhairav Thaat.

No idea about Thirobhairav and Avirbhairav - I suspect these are hindustani terminologies and maybe related to concepts in the Dashavida Gamakas of Carnatic.

twister · Post by **twister** » 06 Nov 2008, 21:27

Vijay,

vijay wrote:
Twister, Carnatic and Hindustani scales are not different - a raga is not the same thing as a scale... The point being that while the scale is a set of notes, the definition of a raga is a more complex, if not impossible task...
Yes, I clearly understand this difference.

vijay wrote:
The same difference applies in Carnatic Music albeit to a lesser extent. SRGMD may seem like a valid usage for Mayamalavagowla but would in fact drag the musician right into the territory of Lalitha. Similarly PDS would be OK for Harikambhoji were it not for Kambhoji lurking around the corner. This is related to your first question: you can skip notes when rendering a raga - but you need to be careful about the outcome. But I take your point that Carnatic generally offers more flexibility within the scale than Hindustani where "pakkads" can be rigid (althogh they are known to vary across gharanas).

This is known to me, also, and here appears a somewhat bizarre question: as far as I am not pretending to conquer the endless space of Carnatic (or whatever) musical tradition (and this is natural to me, as I am not an Indian native), and just want to explore the (endless again) possibilities of this science, well - the question - Is it possible to find out by ear, by myself whether a certain progression (say MPMGR) or gamaka fits well to THIS raga (by the mood, smell, touch or whatever), or is it alien to the 'raag' I am playing. Or, this nuances are really too subtle for me? Or, it is mere an aspect of the tradition, a signature of a gharana, etc.?

In othe words, if my task is not to explore a Raga itself, but to explore the Sound (His Holiness), am I able to re-invent the bicycle?

vijay wrote:
I see no reason why you cannot play Mayamalavagowla or G3/N3 on your guitar. These are the same notes that also occur in the Western (C Major?) scale. It is the Rishabam/Dhaivatham that are different. As I said, it is the same as the Hindustani Bhairav Thaat.

Thank you! It appears that i was misled.

vijay wrote:
No idea about Thirobhairav and Avirbhairav - I suspect these are hindustani terminologies and maybe related to concepts in the Dashavida Gamakas of Carnatic..

It is concerning the short temporary deviation from the general raga being performed to some different but contextually appropriate raga, with a return. Lyrical digression, you know

(BTW I always tend to click 'Report' instead of 'Quote' so don't be surprised when banned )

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 06 Nov 2008, 21:31

Twister,
You speak of the problem of catching a motif. While you listen to CM, you will find some patterns pleasing and feasible for you to play on your guitar. The next step is to pay attention to the name of the rAgA and choosing to hear that rAga over and over again (another test to find out if you still want to stick with it). Of course, you try playing it on your guitar as you go along. You could even pick a few rAgAs and play them in rotation. My son, besides playing sindhubhairavi (familiar rAgA for guitarists besides mOhanam), favored tilang in the beginning. You will find some favorites yourself. Even experts here would agree with me that 'listening' is the best way to go about it if you are very keen on playing CM, particularly because unlike HM, CM may not appeal to one instantly. You need to cultivate your taste for it. Then, there is no stopping!

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 06 Nov 2008, 21:50

Twister -

How do you know which swara combination fit a particular raga?

As a layman in Carnatic, I just associate [more pattern match] with what I have already heard and *know* it's in the particular raga. I tend to listen to various artists singing the same raga different compositions. A new one comes and unless it's a very very minor difference, I am OK to identify it. In writing you can see ragas like say, Shankarabaranam and Kalyani with only the Ma differing. However in practice once you hear the two, it will be difficult not to identify them differently.

Listening endlessly helped me immensely. Knowing the philosophy behind and a bit of the language helps a lot more.

A suggestion if I may,

Pick a raga [Mohanam comes to mind as it's very straight forward and 5 notes].
Head to http://www.sangeethamshare.org/gvr/Mohanam/ -> Full of Mohanam composition by various artists.
Download them and listen to see if you can see a patern.
Then start trying that on the guitar.

After a bit you will see that there are certain patterns that "makes" the raga what it is. And most often than not, once you grasp that pattern, you will never mistake it for any other raga!!

Hope this helps!!

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 06 Nov 2008, 23:40

Arasi and Mahesh have gien excellent suggestions. Our tradition is largely an oral one and these days, all the resources are a click away. It is is the compositions and masters' renditions that ragas reside. SAngeethamshare is a great and absolutely free treasure trove of music.

Having said that, ragas are also capable of being described in a few "pidis" that capture about 90% of what you would typically hear in concerts - close to 99%, in fact, for most artistes. You can consult SAmbamoorthy's books for an idea about some of the major ragas but it is not completely upto my expectations - carnatic really needs someone like Rajan Parrikar to analyze ragas thoroughly with listening aids. I wish organizations like Carnatica and Charsur would take this task up.

You could also try and make your own way. Take up a raga and look at its grammar - try and identify ragas that are close. Listen to renditions in allied ragas and try to figure out the phrases or particular ways of handling notes that sets it apart from related ragas. You will being to understand the pitfalls that you need to watch out for during your creative search. A couple of years of analysis, listening and playing...and you will be well on your way....

Statutory warning - these are just the views of a layman...you would do well to get professional advise as well...

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 07 Nov 2008, 00:58

Twister,

To add on to the great suggestions, I want to reiterate what Mohan emphasised in another thread: Varnams, varnams, varnams! Learning varnas is the single most efficient catalyst for getting acquainted with ragas. They use almost all the important phrases in a particular raga, and because they're not brigha oriented, emphasise the different gamakas of individual swaras. Mohanam is the classic varnam taught to beginners, and other popular ones are in Kalyani, Shankarabharanam, Saveri, Thodi, Sahana, Panthuvarali, Darbar, Nattaikurinji, Navaragamaliga, etc. They also provide a good opportunity to get a feel for adi tala, which is the most common and easiest tala. AM Sharma sir ("msakella") is a great person to seek advice from when learning varnas.

Also, twister, here is a guitarist playing the navaragamaliga varnam, Valachi Vachi, where eight of the nine ragas use either G3 or N3 or both: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRZ-7k-5WNY

And Sindhu Bhairavi to my lay ears definitely sounds a lot like flat Thodi. In fact TNK played a magical Thodi last year at Kalakshetra where in the tara sthayi he used a lot of flat SB-like phrases to great effect.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 07 Nov 2008, 06:59

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 07 Nov 2008, 08:24

cool, arasi might beg to differ!

twister · Post by **twister** » 07 Nov 2008, 18:59

Guyz, thank you all for the information and links, I'll take your words into accaunt..

You're real rasikas

BTW, as for mentioned here msakella - anyone can tell why most of his posts here - in this forum - especially the really interesting ones - are CUT? :

Also, I've found a nice book on sitar tecnique, which seems to be helpful for such a string swingers as me: http://books.google.com/books?id=Nw8l6Q ... Q#PPA77,M1

Enjoy!

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 07 Nov 2008, 20:40

Oh I have nothing against Sindhu Bhairavi Coolji...I quite enjoy it in moderate doses. I do remember the Ajoy clip you had uploaded - it was wonderful indeed. I was also encouraged to buy the album with the khayal after I heard it - but somehow, it was not quite the same thing...

And how can I ever forget the TNS Bhairavi/Sindhu Bhairavi combo RTP from the 1999 season...

But, like you say, Bhairavi is supreme

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 07 Nov 2008, 22:31

This sindhubhairavi: It is played with only two ris by some people. Some people are tempted to add the bigger dha, and some others also add the tIvra / prati ma as sgmm' - mm'mm'mm'mgrsrns ...

I haven't seen people add the bigger ga and ni afai remember.
---
Even though you already play the guitar, identifying rAgams at some level will be much easier for you than identifying svarams. All you need to do is to listen to one song in some raga, then listen to other songs in different ragas, then to another song in the first raga, and say, 'hey! this song is like the other one I heard! it must be the same raga,' and then you need to get used to the kind of names rAgams have to be able to actually refer to ragams by their names rather than of your favourite composition in them. But I still forget kedara gowlai's name and refer to it as "venu gana loluni's ragam" in my mind so you needn't bother about this for quite a while.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 08 Nov 2008, 04:33

srikant1987, my violin teacher usually ends his Sindhu Bhairavi with a slide from N3 to R1 before descending to the shadjam (sort of gowlai-ish), and it's catchy. Otherwise I haven't heard N3 being used in SB. Interesting that prati ma is used! Never knew that.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 08 Nov 2008, 07:52

In tIrAda viLaiyATTu piLLai, the vi-Lai-yAT-Tu might once be rendered as "s-g-mm'-m" in one sangati.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 08 Nov 2008, 08:07

Would that mm'm be considered a vivadi prayoga? I realize normally that term is restricted to R, G, D, N but that combination is dissonant as well without any intervening swaras.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 08 Nov 2008, 12:17

No more Vivadi than N3SR1 of MMG or M2PD1 of the X-Varalis...Arun has written a typically scholarly take on Vivadis in his blog...I haven't yet heard a convincing explanation of why a Vivadhi is called a Vivadhi. However, I do admit I can spot a Vivadhi immediately when I hear it in an alaapana...but why a R1R2 or for that matter M1M2 is different from R2G2, D2N2 etc. is something I haven't found an answer to...

Maybe we are gravtitating towards the Vivadhi ragas thread already...

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 08 Nov 2008, 13:08

Vijay, here is a rule that fits the CM idiom if we assume M1M2 is vivadhi'ish ( I realize dual ma ragas are common in HM )

There are 12 semi-tone intervals in an octave.
split that into two segments. SA-PA and PA-SA'

We only need one rule:
In each segment, the non-vivadi(NV) intervals and vivadi(V) intervals alternate, starting with a NV interval.

SA-PA segment has 7 intervals. Applying the rule gives you 4 NV intervals and 3 V intervals
PS-SA' segment has 5 intervals, Applying the rule gives you 3 NV intervals and 2 V intervals
So you have 7 NV intervals and 5 V intervals.

This of course does not directly answer the musical basis for V and NV, this is just a mathematical pattern that fits.

keerthi · Post by **keerthi** » 08 Nov 2008, 15:45

Speaking of ragas with M1M2, Tanjavur S.Kalyanaraman had suggested another set of 36 melakartas with SRGM1M2DNS . He had presented this idea in a few conferences and had sung a bhajan/ashtapadi in the same. Recently, a certain musician from mysore has published the same scheme with no mention whatsoever of TSK's original contribution;(thereby implying it to be the former's work)

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 08 Nov 2008, 16:37

VK I completely agree with your, rather elegant, theorem for V/NV intervals...but why is the first interval veg and the next one non-veg is, I suppose, my question!

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 08 Nov 2008, 16:38

Keerthi, quite said if someone else has taken credit for TSK's pratimadhyama melas. As it is the vidwan did not get enough recognition in his lifetime

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 08 Nov 2008, 20:16

this is all quite tangential to the original questions of the thread

- but anyway ...

I also agree vk's math theorem is very elegant

IMO, if and only if at least one dvi-madyamama raga (without panchama) were in existence at the time of venkatamakhin/ramamatya, we would have an expanded system where the # of melas is 108 (hey! isnt that an already well known number

?).

Venkatamakhin included R3, and D3 because nATa existed. For every interval that involves a vivadi swara, he gives an example of a raga:
R1G1 - mukhari
G1M1 - mukhari
G1M2 - varaLi
R3G3 - nATa
D1N1 - mukhari
D3N3- nATa

Note that his mukhari is the suddha-mukhari nowadays and not the kshINamai mukhAri. This mukhari was considered quite high in status, because it implies the so-called all suddha swaras of grama based system (but R1,G1,N1,D1 as those original swaras is most probably a misinterpretation and thus a misnomer).

So if nATa wasnt around, then it may not have occurred to early authors like venkatamakhin (and even rAmamatya to preceded venkatamakhin by about a century), to use sadharana gandhara as a rishabam, along with antara gandhara, and we may not be using R3 and D3 today. Which again is why is say that if a dvi-madyama, non-panchama raga was around, we may be using M1M2 today. Of course whether that would be tagged vivadi? Who knows

PS: Note that the evidence for a nATa raga that uses a very wide sa-ri interval is mentioned even earlier in kallinAta's work which is actually a commentary on sangIta ratnAkara, i.e. the earlier grama system (which didn't have all this vivadi stuff. He mentions it in a section where he comments how current practice "deviates" from well established rules and poses if it is all right. Thus the use of R3 is quite old - older than the mela based texts that mention it.

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 08 Nov 2008, 20:22

oh, forgot to mention. If there was such a raga, they would have made M2 a P and thus P, becomes "flatter". Some argue that the cyuta panchama mentioned in grama system is actually M2, and so earlier times perhaps this was indeed done (but then you also had a cyuta sadja - I dont remember all the details, but I remember mulling about this, and I could not see the clear logic in why cyuta panchama was a sthanam that eventually became M2. One thing I remember - Kallinatha mentions the use of a sharper madhyama in a raga "ramakriya" - this leads me to believe that the current M2 evolved as a sharper madhyama rather from a flattened panchama.

Arun

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 08 Nov 2008, 22:46

Arun, I suppose Hamir Kalyani is a Hindustani ragam borrowed around the time of the trinity but what about Saranga - it has an old raga feel but don't ask me why! Or do you mean ragas that follows a M1M2P sequence like Lalith

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 08 Nov 2008, 23:18

yes I meant M1M2 in succession. This is disallowed in sAranga (M1 can only occur as rgm1r). In behAg (also hindustani import) it seems allowed, but it could be a more-modern evolution (?) of a modern raga (modern to cm).

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 09 Nov 2008, 00:47

(but R1,G1,N1,D1 as those original swaras is most probably a misinterpretation and thus a misnomer).

Arun, can you expand on this? I was confused by G1M1 and D1N1 for Mukhari and G1M2 for varali. It looks like that is what you are trying to clarify.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 09 Nov 2008, 01:33

vasanthakokilam wrote:
(but R1,G1,N1,D1 as those original swaras is most probably a misinterpretation and thus a misnomer).
Arun, can you expand on this?

This is a thesis in itself

Basically the "suddha-swaras" were the original swaras of the sadja grama, which again everyone believed to originate from vedas and thus from divinity. While we do not know for sure (as in 100% sure) what the positions (swarasthanams) of these were, it seems most likely this is close to kharaharapriya except for maybe a slighly flattened ri and dha, but still in the realm of R2 and D2 rather than close to R1 an D1. This is the general interpretation of pretty much all scholars today. In my writeup on 22 sruthis, if you remember I derive the math for it - based on consonance and as little assumptions - the eventual "scale" is close to kharaharapriya. If you remember 9/8 for ri was rejected because it has a s-m type relationship with pa (and thus samvadi), but in the grama system, for sadja grama ri and pa did NOT have that. So the choice suggested (albeit offered without absolute proof) was the slighly flatter 10/9.

The suddha-swaras today add up to kanakAngi which is venkaTamakhin's mukhari (today's mukhAri itself is kharaharapriya based - and that also hints at something).

In any case, *IF* we are correct that it is not this mukAri, then how come it came it be so? So why dont R2 G2 D2 and N2 not have the "suddha" prefix?

Here is how some people think it happened (and I agree):

In the grama system of bharata, dattila, brhaddesi, sangIta ratnAkara, there was only one ri. There was also only one ga (which was just called gandhara). There were "shades" of gandhara in use like antara, but they were explicitly not raised to swara status - there is also mention of "sadharana" with gandhara, but it is not clear if it was implying a separate sthanam etc. (swaras there were defined to span a portion of octave rather than occupy a point i.e. a sthanam). Basically there was one sadja, one rishaba, one gandhara, one madhyama, one panchama, one dhaivata and one nishada that had the lofty "swara status". They each had a certain precription of # of sruthis and the sum-total added to our familiar 22.

Now, somewhere in the "hole in time" between sangIta ratnAkara and rAmamatya (discounting vidyaranya for a moment as his work came to known later through another work only), the grama systems merged, or more precisely were no longer in use. We had evolved to a single system with "sa" permanently as the tonic - how so is not precisely documented in history. Anyway, once this happened, and they started laying out the swaras (on a veena), they got the R1 (i.e. mayamalavagowla ri) as "the closest rishaba to sa". Since the early works made no mention of multiple rishabas and "the rishaba" was closest to sa at a distance of 3 sruthis (dattila defines the rishaba pretty much in these explicit terms), this R1 position now assumed that role and was treated/presumed as "suddha rishaba" and thus treated as the "lofty rishaba of the grama system".

Basically "the first rishaba" (i.e. closest to sa) was thought to be that of the grama system. The same applies to all other swaras i.e. gandhara, rishaba, dhaivata and nishada. Thus "first gandhara" was now thought to be that of the grama system and labelled suddha-gandhara. This now is the vivadhi G1. You apply the logic and see M1 (suddha-madyama), D1 (suddha-dhaivata), N1 (the vivadhi suddha-nishada).

Thus we arrive at today's R1, G1, D1 and N1 having the suddha prefix.

Note let us instead assume that S R1 G1 M1 P D1 N1 as we know today was indeed the original sadja grama, and thus our "reconstruction" of it as close to to khaharapriya is somehow wrong). Let us see if the math adds up. We first apply the prescribed sruthi intervals of the grama system to it:
S-R1 - 3 sruthis
R1-G1 - 2 sruthis
G1-M1 - 4 sruthis
M1-P - 4 sruthis
P-D1 - 3 sruthis
D1-N1 - 2 sruthis
N1-S - 4 sruthis

The numbere as quoted from bharata t hrough sArngadEva. But if we account for the actual pitch intervals, we see the following
S-R1 - 1 semitone - 3 sruthis
R1-G1 - 1 semitone - 2 sruthis
G1-M1 - 3 semitons - 4 sruthis
M1-P 2 semitons - 4 sruthis
P-D1 1 semitone - 3 sruthis
D1-N1 1 semitone - 2 sruthis
N1-S 4 semitons - 4 sruthis

We see several problems. S-R1 interval is very close to R1-G1 (both 1 semitone), but have different assignments. But worse G1-M1 is 3 semitones and is assigned the same 4 sruthis as M1-P which is only 2 semitones. IMO, Bharata's experiment is unrealizable with this spacing.

Of course on top of that you have a very highly dissonant scale (atleast per our conditioning today) as the best, pure scale

.

I was confused by G1M1 and D1N1 for Mukhari and G1M2 for varali..

I meant that venkatamakhin gives an example raga that has a g1-m1, d1-n1 combo as mukhari (the suddha-mukhari), and varALi for a raga that has g1-m2 combo.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 09 Nov 2008, 02:13

Arun, Got it. Thanks very much for the detailed explanation. I understand the reasoning now.

On the second point - mukhari, varali example intervals, I see it now. I guess I was thinking only in terms of vivadi intervals and not vivadi swarasthana, let alone a vivadi swarathana participating in a non-vivadi interval !!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 09 Nov 2008, 06:27

Arun
Thanks for the lucid historic explanation.
I am willing to accept VK's postulate of M1M2 deserving vivaditavam. But then why was it rejected in CM while HM embraced it long ago? Any historical insight?

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 09 Nov 2008, 09:24

@ ArunK
Do you think that kanakAngi was the vEdas' scale?!

I am reminded of an SRJ lecture in which he mentioned this M2-being-used-as-P thing and sang Mayamalavagowla substituting M2 for P. (It was beautiful!) But that will surely need

But this can obviously be done only for shuddhamadhyama ragas, and stringed instruments will have to be retuned to play this comfortably.

Sathej · Post by **Sathej** » 09 Nov 2008, 10:17

srikant1987 wrote:@ ArunK
But this can obviously be done only for shuddhamadhyama ragas, and stringed instruments will have to be retuned to play this comfortably.

Well, with the violin, its quite possible to play these without retuning. Have seen a few people doing it. I've heard that Shri MSG used to do this with ease.

Sathej

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 09 Nov 2008, 12:22

BTW, with respect to M1M2, I do not think we need to necessarily restrict it to cases where PA is absent (like the Kalyanaraman scheme if I understand his scheme right ).

Following the Venkatamakhian syntactical devise, let us define G4 to be at the same swarasthana as M1. Then a scale like S R G4 M2 P D N S' with use the M1M2 interval along with P ( R, D, N can be any of its variants for this discussion ). I tried to play it and it sounded like in the same league as other vivadi intervals. You can bring in these HM dwi-madhyama ragas into a unified framework if we allow such scales using G4.

Granted, this does not satisfy Arun's stipulation that to bring any such scales into the mela fold, a raga with such an interval should have existed before the mela scheme, so calling this a Venkatamakhian technique is not fully correct. I am just borrowing his syntactical devise.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 09 Nov 2008, 14:29

@ Sathej
Are you sure? Because this M2-as-P isn't really in vogue in concert circles ...

It is of course possible, but with ease is something.

It seems Lalgudi played the madhyamashruti (which is adopted for playing songs in Punnagavarali and all) without retuning the violin.

shadjam · Post by **shadjam** » 09 Nov 2008, 15:11

I have seen both Embar Sri Kannan and Delhi Sri Sundarajan handle madhyamasruthi without retuning the violin. In the nAttaikurinji RTP by Sri TNS (accompanied by Delhi Sri Sundarrajan), I believe the transition to kurinji from nAttaikurinji requires changing to madhyamasruti and the violinist obviously cannot afford to retune the violin in between. I vaguely remember that Sri.R.K.Shiram kumar accompanying Sri.TNS for the same RTP in one of the DD programs.

Sathej · Post by **Sathej** » 09 Nov 2008, 17:58

Yes, am very sure of MSG doing it. Have seen several other violinists too of today - Shri MAS, Shri Nagai Muralidharan and so on do it as well. It is quite common place, so to say.
Sathej