Question for instrumentalists - Do you play swara or sahitya

girish_a · Post by **girish_a** » 28 Jul 2008, 19:05

This is a question that will haunt all serious instrumentalists - when you play a composition, what is it that you simultaneously repeat in your mind? The song, or its underlying swaras?

It is possible to play a composition correctly to its Sahitya, i.e., pause at the appropriate places and stay as close to a vocal rendering as possible (this comes with practice, and by listening to vocal renderings of the song), but when you actually play the song on the instrument, what is it that runs in your mind?

Considering that Carnatic instrumentalists are generally not taught to sing the song first and then to try and mimic it on their instrument (which is the way an instrument ought to be taught, at least in Carnatic Music), I will venture that by the time they realize it, most instrumentalists are prisoners of the "swara habit", and the neural pathways in their brains are too deeply etched to be able to easily get out of it. If there be a way to unlearn this, let us hear it.

I shudder to think about rendering neraval - regular Sahitya seems formidable enough.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 28 Jul 2008, 20:33

Girish-a, the following thread may be of interest to you: http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=3105 . Maybe this post could be merged with the a/m thread?

Sam Swaminathan · Post by **Sam Swaminathan** » 29 Jul 2008, 07:34

As a violinist, I can say the methodology of my teacher....he used make us sing the song first and then teach us the notes. This way we always tended to know the part of sahithyam we were playing, at any one time. I am not sure how the teaching is done nowadays, but , as for as I am concerned, the sahithya part keeps running in the head when I am playing. This does not mean I am unaware of the swara part ...at a sub-conscious level that is always there too...I hope I am making sense here....Interested in knowing the views of other instrumentalists....

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 29 Jul 2008, 08:04

There are three aspects to consider in this context:

1) The swaras set in the laya sub-structure along with the necessary gamakas,
2) The melody that results from that sequence of swaras, and
3) The sahitya that provides the necessary enunciation and articulation of that melody. Here the role of the sahitya is not just the words, is not just a carrier of the melody, it is the one that gives a super-structure to the melody.

In this view, Laya provides the sub-structure and sahitya provides the super-structure with melody in the middle.

One can be playing with any one of the three running in their minds. One can graduate ( or change ) from playing the gamaka laden swaras to playing with the melody running in thier mind in a non-deconstructed form. That will definitely show in the quality of the musical output. But for vocal and composition based music such as CM, something will still be lacking until the sahitya based enunciation is brought into the picture.

For a flutist, for example, that sub-consciously translates to providing the balance between the smooth continous playing vs thuthakAram ( breaking the smooth swaras with breaks in blowing ), slight trembling of the fingers providing for micro openings in space and time, azhuttham ( stress?) and resting places where needed and many other innumerable parameters. These are hard to notate and specify.

For a dabbler like me who has to perspire a lot to produce anything decent due to a lack of inborn natural talent, graduating from stage 1 to stage 2 is a himalayan task, not to speak of stage 3. But what a great pleasure it is to achieve stage 3 occasionally, even if it lasts only for a few moments.

The vocalists have it easy since most of these are so natural and part of the body

blackadder · Post by **blackadder** » 29 Jul 2008, 12:52

I can get the trembling part very easily but not because I play the flute. This is driven sheerly by fear.

I recall a story - perhaps apocryphal - about the instrumentalist who professed his inability to play "Bantureeti kolu" until some one sang it for him, when he promptly said, "Oh! pa da ni pa ma ga".

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 29 Jul 2008, 13:06

That is quite common among us dabblers, knowing songs only by the starting swaras.

blackadder , you probably meant to write 'Brovabarama'.

blackadder · Post by **blackadder** » 29 Jul 2008, 15:13

vasanthakokilam: Of course. Thanks for pointing out the error. Much as I am tempted to edit my post to correct it, let it be on record that I remain at a level much below those of "dabblers".

Perhaps the issue of sahitya shuddha has been debated ad nauseum but I still wonder how appropriate it is to split and.or stretch words in the sahitya to conform to laya/melody. This is purely rhetorical, so forgive me if I am way behind the rest of you.

thathwamasi · Post by **thathwamasi** » 29 Jul 2008, 15:52

This is topic which has been discussed a lot before as well. Not sure if it was on this forum. As an instrumentalist, when I began my career as a 13 year old, I used to focus on swarams more. But as time went by, I realised the importance of sahityam and took advise of my Guru Vairamangalam Sri. Lakshminarayanan and started concentrating only on sahityam and not swaram. This was very difficult in the beginning but with time, I became comfortable. Now, I really wouldn't know the Swaram of the kritis that I play consciously. If one asks me for the swaram of the songs that I play, I will have to think and respond.

The more one starts concentrating on sahityam, one unconciously becomes aware of how to produce the sahityam on the instrument. As in one becomes aware of the "Kurils and Nedils" in the sahityam and plays accordingly. The real pleasure of playing an keerthanai in an instrument arrives only when the sahityam is played.

Thanks
T

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 29 Jul 2008, 18:02

I think a lot of it has to do with internalising what we hear as well. For instance, when I play krithis, I usually have only the sahithya in mind for the pallavi and maybe anupallavi, which are basically the lines in any krithi I'm usually intimately familiar with. But when I get right into the thick of the charanam and lines I really don't remember, only the swaras come to mind. It certainly helps to learn to sing the sahithyam, and this can be supplemented by constant listening to and familiarisation with every word in the krithi being learned. For instrumentalists, there's no escape from the blood, sweat, and tears, but think of the ultimate profit!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 29 Jul 2008, 20:15

I am not even a dabbler when it comes to instruments. I feel that when the players pay attention to the lyrics, at least part of it (as bilahari says about pallavi and anu pallavi), the words and the mood of the song is absorbed. The bonus is, their emoting on the instrument sounds more appealing. At least, this is what a non-instrument playing person like me thinks.
As for not chopping up the words--it helps too (thathwamasi points that out). However, there are occasions when the chop is inevitable because the structure of certain words in a particular composition simply makes it difficult to sing the word wholly.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 29 Jul 2008, 22:54

Just to repeat myself again...
I play with just sahitya in mind. That is the only way I can feel the song while playing.
It also helps in adding dynamics- like playing softly , loud or with stress on the bow when you have sahitya in mind than swaras

Now, I really wouldn't know the Swaram of the kritis that I play consciously. If one asks me for the swaram of the songs that I play, I will have to think and respond.

same with me

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 30 Jul 2008, 02:03

Just to make sure: Whenever we say 'sathiyam' in this context, we mean the composition as a whole "Words + melody + rhythm", right? Normally, I tend to think of Sathiyam as just the words.

mishram · Post by **mishram** » 30 Jul 2008, 08:36

My 2 cents worth... As a veena player from the karaikudi school, the emphasis is very much on the sahithyam. The bhavam would be completely lost if the player thinks in terms of swaras.

But sometimes in krithis like Entharani (HK) or Manasu Swadhina(SB), there is an extended "Akaaram" for about half an avarthanam in some sangathis - this extended phrase is not easy to play on the veena audibly. Under such circumstances, I guess a single meettu in between to keep the gamakams and sangathis intact is permissible. This meettu is normally on the swaram where there is an additional emphasis while singing the same. (adichchu paadara note)

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 30 Jul 2008, 17:40

When a vocalist does swarakalpana, sometimes the swara they utter (e.g. 'Ga') may not be the same as the swara-sthana that they sing. Surely an instrumentalist would need to go by the swara rather than the 'sahityam' in this case?

KarnatikLover · Post by **KarnatikLover** » 31 Jul 2008, 03:10

As a Veena player/dabbler, I find it an amazing experience for myself if I can sing along when playing the instrument- not always easy at first... have to work at it on a per composition basis.... Dikshithar's compositions are of course ideal for this!
In general, I have found it most effective to learn from a vocalist and then play it - which eliminates the 2 step process of swaram then sahityam etc... it is much more satisfying to be able to reproduce what is being sung on your own rather than someone telling you what swarams to play... I have found that it is easier to retain and not forget songs when learnt this way...
A big vidwan whom I had the honor of speaking to once told me that the ultimate compliment for an instrumentalist is when it comes from a vocalist, not from a fellow instrumentalist.

mishram · Post by **mishram** » 31 Jul 2008, 08:28

>>When a vocalist does swarakalpana, sometimes the swara they utter (e.g. 'Ga') may not be the same as the swara-sthana that they sing. Surely an instrumentalist would need to go by the swara rather than the 'sahityam' in this case?<<

I guess this would not be considered acceptable whether it is a vocalist or an instrumentalist. When "ga" and its swarasthanam do not match - it would not be a gandharam anymore!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 31 Jul 2008, 10:08

I do not know if ragam-thalam is referring to such things or not, but in many ragas, when you sing/play a swara, due to gamakam you may not be snging/playing that swarasthanam at all. It may be oscilating between a higher swarasthanam and a lower swarasthanam. For example: Darbar ga, Begada ma, Begada ni, Bhairavi Ga ( in specific usages )

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 31 Jul 2008, 10:14

I think we should know svarams, because without them the song will keep changing between various attempts. Svarams will help introduce consistency and discipline in playing a song. These are very important and are pillars on which kalpita sangItam stands.