Thyagaraja Denounced

Sivaraman · Post by **Sivaraman** » 09 May 2006, 00:22

I came across this interesting blog debates on the above issue, which casts aspersions on the divine saint's mindsets on the above issues.While the blogger "Guptavati" claims to have done extensive research on the subject by analysing the saint's various compositions to establish her conclusions here:
http://guptavati.blogspot.com/2006/02/t ... women.html

Read these other blogs debating and refuting the lady's claims (Mainly Srikant's Blog):
http://srican.blogspot.com/2006/02/tyag ... ioned.html

Though, I do not understand Telugu, and am only moved by the bhakthi rasam and emotional appeal to The Lord in all his compositions, I would invite my more knowledgeable friends in this forum to peruse these blogs and respond with their views to set the record straight.

jaisrikrishna · Post by **jaisrikrishna** » 09 May 2006, 06:20

Just wanted to add sathguru thyAgayyAs words

In Buddhi RAdhu (SankarAbharanam) he says

"True wisdom will not dawn on one, if he is not inspired by the words of the great saints"

"Mere mastery of all the great branches of learning will not secure wisdom".

"Though one might have read ceaselessly Ramayana, BhAgwatha and other purAnAs, he will not have wisdom, unless he associates with those who have true knowldege of the significance of the lives of the avatArs in human form".

"Though one may have practised yogas and though one may have secured all enjoyments , wisdom will not be his, if he has not gained the friendship of devotees of RAma."

In secular terms, it is about experience. One might not able to perform well just with the theoretical knowldgge. If so, y are the companies asking for experience?

just my thougts based on those of a great composer.,,NO , a real MahAnubAvA

If people dont consider this perspective as he says in yet another krithi, it will be like "imparting a holy manthram to a deaf man"

with sathguru dhivya pAdha kamala smaranams,
krishna
sarvam seethArAmachandRArpanam

Vishnampettai Jayendran · Post by **Vishnampettai Jayendran** » 09 May 2006, 12:52

ok i got a question.
Thirvaiyaru is like 15 km from Vishnampettai, my village.. like in the middle of Thanjavur district. Why did Thyagaraja sing in telugu?
Sorry my TN history is weak, well non existent...

WRT to what thyagaraja wrote, artistic freedom, freedom of expression.. u gotta respect that.. if u dont like.. just ignore it.. is what my 21st century brain tells me..

other way to look at it is , he was a man of his times.. 18th century..

J

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 09 May 2006, 13:08

ok i got a question.
Thirvaiyaru is like 15 km from Vishnampettai, my village.. like in the middle of Thanjavur district. Why did Thyagaraja sing in telugu?
Sorry my TN history is weak, well non existent...

Tanjavur had considerable telugu influence in those times. The demographic setup is not the same as what we find today.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 09 May 2006, 13:21

jayendran
The next time you get a chance try listening to two marathi speaking guys conversing in marathi.Even a greeting can put you off ..

.I get the same feeling with German too.

I guess it has something to do with the words in telugu having a rounded edge , making it so musical.I read somewhere that this is a quality it shares with Italian .maybe the Composers can elaborate

Vishnampettai Jayendran · Post by **Vishnampettai Jayendran** » 09 May 2006, 13:40

hey coolkarni.. i kinda like all the vittala vittala and the paandurangas

but yea i know what u mean

in the same note.. telugu film music sounds like a medley of tamil swear words to me, most of the time. but carnatic music doesnt...
has coloqial telugu detiorated that much?

srkris, interesting,i will do some googling and wikipedia searches.

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 09 May 2006, 14:04

VJ wrote:

telugu film music sounds like a medley of tamil swear words to me, most of the time. but carnatic music doesnt... has coloqial telugu detiorated that much?

I would say that Telugu in the films is almost like a differrent language as oppsed to normal telugu I speak..
Its atrocious...

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 09 May 2006, 16:10

Thyagaraja's ancestors hailed from Kurnool district in Andhra Pradesh. His mother tongue was Telugu.

It was indeed an interesting situation - Telugu migrants settled in a Tamil area that was ruled by a Maratha king! I guess Thyagaraja was the 18th century version of the ABCD!

For me I am a Ugandan born Indian brought up in Australia to Tamil speaking parents who were born in Andhra and Kerala respectively.

sriucl · Post by **sriucl** » 09 May 2006, 17:54

Vow !! Mohan !!

No wonder, your music in Inter-continental...
:cheesy:

Srivathsan

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 09 May 2006, 18:59

srI tyAgarAjA was born into a telugu smArtA sect who actually were refered to as Iyers. While they were part of the tanjAvUr delta, historically, it appears that the villages settled by folks from AP were distinct from those where the predominant population was local to the area (i.e. tamizhs). So, it appears that the language they spoke was something like what happened to tamizh when people moved from TN to the pAlghAT district of Kerala - i.e., while it was telugu, it was different from the AP telugu.
While the rulers were indeed nAyaks, I think they were originally from vijayanagarA, the capital of which was on the banks of the tungabhadrA. If I remember history lessons from 'prAcIn bhArat' (Ancient India) many, many years ago, once the chOLA dynasty fell, the rulers of vijayanagar captured tanjAvUr and one of the king's chieftans - sEvappa nAyak was given the chietanship of tanjAvUr and he founded the nAyak dynasty. AFAIK they were telugu speaking. The marATTA nAyaks were part of chatrapatI shivAjI's hordes - they may have ultimately blended, because, the nAyaks are credited with taking the dance of the tanjAvUr court and temples (aka sadir/kUttu - the precursor of today's bharatanATyam) to maharAshTrA, and through marriage, to ahmadAbAd in gujrAt. I am sure I have messed up my historical eras and facts. If anyone knows more, please correct.

Ravi

sudarshan · Post by **sudarshan** » 09 May 2006, 20:27

I too read that blog by Guptavati just around last week, but paid no attention to it, unless it now came up here.

Some people want to announce out loud their thoughts instead of keeping them to themselves. By this, they probably hint at gaining some mileage to their self glory. Instead of giving significance to the lessons to be learnt from Sri Thyagaraja Swamigal's compositions, i.e. Ananya Bhakti, there are debates about his attitude, thought process and his mindset.

Surely Swamigal does not mean a "woman" by gender. He means any person. Or, probably being a man that went by the word of Shastras, he is deterring those women (that might have existed in those days) that questioned the veracity of the argument that Vedas and other scriptures needed to be only chanted by the menfolk. He was upholding that devotion to the Lord's feet was much higher than doing all those.

Swamigal himself is being introspective in "Duduku gala" and repents for having thought that women, property and others were lasting and also laments about letting his mind astray in carnal thoughts.

Unfortunately, we with our small minds can only think so much. How many of us would have refused the status and wealth that was offered by the king of Thanjavur.

I remember Jagadguru Sri Chandrashekhara Bharathi's words: "Why do you fight about the LordÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚Â¢s face when you can't even see His holy feet?"

Let us first introspect our minds and thoughts and then later think about delving into others minds.

humdinger · Post by **humdinger** » 10 May 2006, 01:40

She has actually translated the kritis wrongly and took them out of context to mis-represent their meaning. I have just posted a BIG reply to her on the blog...
Sriram

jaisrikrishna · Post by **jaisrikrishna** » 10 May 2006, 02:22

LEt me share a very nice write up expounding the tathvams in sathguru thyAgayyAs krithis.

http://www.ipnatlanta.net/camaga/vidyar ... essage.htm

sarvam seethArAmachandrArpanam
krishna

Vishnampettai Jayendran · Post by **Vishnampettai Jayendran** » 10 May 2006, 05:48

srI tyAgarAjA was born into a telugu smArtA sect who actually were refered to as Iyers. While they were part of the tanjAvUr delta, historically, it appears that the villages settled by folks from AP were distinct from those where the predominant population was local to the area (i.e. tamizhs). So, it appears that the language they spoke was something like what happened to tamizh when people moved from TN to the pAlghAT district of Kerala - i.e., while it was telugu, it was different from the AP telugu.
While the rulers were indeed nAyaks, I think they were originally from vijayanagarA, the capital of which was on the banks of the tungabhadrA. If I remember history lessons from 'prAcIn bhArat' (Ancient India) many, many years ago, once the chOLA dynasty fell, the rulers of vijayanagar captured tanjAvUr and one of the king's chieftans - sEvappa nAyak was given the chietanship of tanjAvUr and he founded the nAyak dynasty. AFAIK they were telugu speaking. The marATTA nAyaks were part of chatrapatI shivAjI's hordes - they may have ultimately blended, because, the nAyaks are credited with taking the dance of the tanjAvUr court and temples (aka sadir/kUttu - the precursor of today's bharatanATyam) to maharAshTrA, and through marriage, to ahmadAbAd in gujrAt. I am sure I have messed up my historical eras and facts. If anyone knows more, please correct.

Ravi

Cool thats awesome info. Some people came from Suarashtra as well right?

BTW I like this sub thread much more than the main one. maybe we should start a new thread on this in the languages forum or something.

regarding Thyagaraja, whats the point of this debate, is the popular culture better today than 200 years ago?
let him rest in peace.
Jay

ninjathegreat · Post by **ninjathegreat** » 10 May 2006, 23:42

Hello all... I'm back!!! It was a really tough semester

!!!

The telugu migration into the tamil lands were a result of the Vijaynagara kings. Naikers and Nayudus are found in large numbers in north tamil nadu.

Similarly, we have the Gowdas/Goundars, who are kannada speaking immigrants, probably moved in when the western Gangas ruled over the mixed region of Kannada and Tamil speaking people.

And yes, I do agree that the Kannada and Telugu spoken by people living in tamil nadu is very different. I have some naikker friends who tell me that people from andhra laugh at their telugu, so they avoid speaking telugu in their peresence. Coimbatore is unique there - it has a large number of Gowdas, naikkers and palakkad immigrants!!!!

Cheers
ninja

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 11 May 2006, 00:08

BTW I like this sub thread much more than the main one. maybe we should start a new thread on this in the languages forum or something.

regarding Thyagaraja, whats the point of this debate, is the popular culture better today than 200 years ago?
let him rest in peace.
Jay

Go ahead and start a thread VJ.
And I agree with you. We should let Saint T RIP....
Ravi

bala · Post by **bala** » 12 May 2006, 10:01

I don't know who this Guptavati is. {edited}

In the "Bhakti biccamiyyave" song what Tyagaraja says is there is no use in expounding vedas, scriptures if you are bereft of devotion. Here he gives an analogy of loose, immoral women trained to expound Vedas. These women because of their lustful behaviour would certainly lack devotion and moral values. Asking these women to be religious is like decorating a corpse. It is only an analogy and all Tyagaraja's songs are full of analogies. Only a pervert would twist and maul the saint’s analogy.

Vishnampettai Jayendran · Post by **Vishnampettai Jayendran** » 12 May 2006, 12:40

...

what she was showing was freedom of expression, what you r doing is plain abuse. and if u actually believe in that analogy in today's world , what can I say about you.. other than i am glad I do not think like you.

Jay

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 12 May 2006, 13:37

humdinger
I was looking at the blog today and it looks like you have settled the issue.

Guptavathi is more like mamtha bannerji on TV Yesterday( I congratulate the Left, The voters , The Media , The election Officer....

For somebody who was trying warn parents of the ills of associating with Tyagaraja , her last post (each to his own views...this is a free world...) was a damp squib.

Gupthavathi , need not have troubled herself with Tyagaraja to make her point.
She could have picked on Lord Rama himself.She would have had company with my own Grandmother who had a very serious problem with Lord Rama for what Sita had to go through.
Or for that monkey who received an arrow on his back

Vishnampettai Jayendran · Post by **Vishnampettai Jayendran** » 12 May 2006, 13:52

^^hehe.
sorry i got irritated by mr bala's post. but he seems to have a very obnoxious attitude towards women he considers unworthy.
everyone is a child of god.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 12 May 2006, 14:06

if you have been reading balas post for as long we have done, it will not surprise you.
his standards are high for vocalists , composers , instrumentalists -past and present--
let alone moral / immoral persons

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 12 May 2006, 15:20

bala & bala747 are NOT the same person. Just to make sure that's concrete.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 12 May 2006, 16:13

thanks for bringing it to my attention...
but i will let my description of bala 747 stay !!

bala · Post by **bala** » 12 May 2006, 18:22

I read Guptavati blog and it struck me that she was not talking out of genuine misunderstanding arising out of ignorance of Telugu. It struck me that G was trying to score cheap popularity a la Mayawati who came to limelight by slandering Mahatma Gandhi.
Secondly there was no need to edit what I had written. It was simply "a pig casting a glance on an elephant." Is this objectionable? Doesn't a pig look at a elephant? If that is objectionable than I must be dreaming!

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 12 May 2006, 18:42

Of course coolkarni

Maybe the balas have some things in common :cheesy:

bala · Post by **bala** » 12 May 2006, 20:51

No thanks Vocalist for your "endearing" comment. At least I have something in common with another civilised Bala.

Vishnampettai Jayendran · Post by **Vishnampettai Jayendran** » 13 May 2006, 02:18

I read Guptavati blog and it struck me that she was not talking out of genuine misunderstanding arising out of ignorance of Telugu. It struck me that G was trying to score cheap popularity a la Mayawati who came to limelight by slandering Mahatma Gandhi.
Secondly there was no need to edit what I had written. It was simply "a pig casting a glance on an elephant." Is this objectionable? Doesn't a pig look at a elephant? If that is objectionable than I must be dreaming!

i found your comments on women really cheap and objectionable

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 13 May 2006, 02:27

I thought Bala was trying to explain the context of Thyagaraja's krithi in that narrow context and not his views about women in general...I tend to be liberal/progressive on these matters, so I am against any stereotypical demeaning, but in this case I do not see that as such a case.

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 13 May 2006, 05:59

This thread is, about an opinion on Thyagaraja and his music, expressed in a blog. We should, I think, stick with the facts and not give opinions on that opinion; or opinions on opinions on that opinion.

bala · Post by **bala** » 13 May 2006, 07:49

I clearly see from your site that there are some who would like to shoot the messenger without giving a second thought.
The beauty of Tyagaraja is his foresight and analytical acumen about both men and women of immoral nature. There were evil men and evil women even during Tygaraja's times and more so now. What is wrong in admitting it?
The saint has rightly said that there are vicious and lusty men and women who unaware of the potency of the divine name resort to uttering it only to stuff their bellies, posing as stalwarts (Emandune vicitramunu)!
And what is shocking is the saint's honest admission that right from his birth he suffered at the hands of demoniacal men (also in Narasimha nannu he says about men taunting him. I would have imagined that the these evil men's spouses would have advised their husbands to let the saint alone!). Tyagaraja lived comparatively in a golden age when dharma should have been the norm. And yet he says demoniacal men were all around him! If this saint would have been alive today he would probably been behind bars hauled under the Untouchability Act for spreading illwill or worse for crime against women accused by people like Guptavati. Many Kalinaralus and naralis would have supported Guptavati instead of sparing him a thought!

Vishnampettai Jayendran · Post by **Vishnampettai Jayendran** » 13 May 2006, 12:41

whats wrong in being lusty?

but thats not the point here.
lets not mince words. you are talking about prostitutes here.
prostitution in india is a huge problem, a lot of human rights abuse and child trafficking is happening in our beloved country. AIDS is a big issue as well. Instead of sympathizing with these women, you are stigmatizing them!!!!

Thyagaraja was a man of his times. maybe such lyrics were ok then. you gotto take all that into context. my point was there is no point nickel and diming thyagaraja's lyrics and thought process today, especially when they r dealing and in this case even supporting a wrong and obnoxious ideology. Thyagaraja was a man of his times, (Hey Jefferson banged slaves)
You my friend are sadly outdated.

sudarshan · Post by **sudarshan** » 13 May 2006, 22:13

"What's wrong in being lusty?"

Yeah, correct. Shankara Bhagavadpadacharya Himself says in Mohamudgara:

|| Vayasi Gathe Kah Kaamavikaarah ||

"When youth is gone, it takes away the lustfulness with it"

So people, go ahead. Enjoy. You do not have much time.

But bang in the next verse itself, He says:

|| Maa kuru dhanajanayauvana garvam
harathi nimeshat kaalah sarvam ||

"Do not be proud of wealth, kindred, and youth. Time takes away all these in a moment."

Oh, God, the Catch-22 at play again.

Vishnampettai Jayendran · Post by **Vishnampettai Jayendran** » 14 May 2006, 03:13

heh

god helped man find Viagra too

meena · Post by **meena** » 14 May 2006, 03:49

Well i do not know where this thread is headed BUT the drugs companies will be very pleased for they are getting free publicity on this forum

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 14 May 2006, 07:59

more food for thought

http://www.hindu.com/mag/2006/05/14/sto ... 450300.htm

Vishnampettai Jayendran · Post by **Vishnampettai Jayendran** » 14 May 2006, 10:51

that was blasphemous! he mentions rock'n'roll and bluegrass in the same sentence!!

:cheesy:
but on a serious note, the article is very close to what i had asked in the other thread about canratic music bhkati etc. good reading.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 14 May 2006, 12:44

that was blasphemous! he mentions rock'n'roll and bluegrass in the same sentence!! :cheesy:

In the same blasphemous vein, he mentions Thyagaraja and Hank Williams in the same breath.

:cheesy:

May be Hank Williams and some Javalis. "Cold Cold Heart" is not that far apart from 'kAshiki poyyEnE' that was recently translated by Kiran in the Sahitya Thread :LOL:

On the MIKE MARQUSEE article, I will have to think further about what he wrote...but on first blush his self-portrayal is more an all accomodating agnostic rather than an anarchist-atheist which he seems to consider himself. Anyway, that is neither here nor there but a plesant and meaningful article to read nevertheless.

sudarshan · Post by **sudarshan** » 14 May 2006, 13:07

Yeah, God helped man find Viagra. God also gave man Acquired Immuno Deficiency Syndrome.

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 14 May 2006, 15:10

Meena
Thats was an interesting article...
Cheers

meena · Post by **meena** » 14 May 2006, 21:24

kiran

The article was posted by our Kji.

bala747 · Post by **bala747** » 17 May 2006, 07:28

Heh much as I didn't want to post into a topic like this, my name came up a few times so I couldn't resist.

The bala who posted earlier is not me.

One tends to forget that musicians were people of their times and I think one has to put T's words in context of his times (as many posters have suggested). It is very easy to look back and criticize. Even Darwin's Theory of Evolution has been hauled over the coals not because it's unscientific but because Charles Darwin was racist.

The morality of prostitution aside, T felt it was wrong and it is immoral. Hence he spoke/sang against it to himself. What is wrong here? T didn't compose his compose his krithis to be mangled by every SK aspirant in Music Academy Season after season, but more as a form of communication between himself and his Rama. OF course he would bring the prejudices of his era with them. He wasn't out to convert people to his cause (whatever it may be). He was not really a social reformer (although some compositions do talk about some things in society he didn't quite like). Even his compositions that do talk about them, he is usually referring to them as questions for his mind to answer, rather than a clarion call for reform.

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 17 May 2006, 20:06

*cringe*
PLEASEE, no more Darwin's Theory

Vishnampettai Jayendran · Post by **Vishnampettai Jayendran** » 18 May 2006, 05:20

*cringe*
PLEASEE, no more Darwin's Theory

why are u from kansas or pennsylvania?

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 18 May 2006, 13:07

*cringe*
PLEASEE, no more Darwin's Theory
why are u from kansas or pennsylvania?

Neither nor. No doubting how effective Darwin's theory is as a bedtime story!! LOL but still, seeing you brought kansas up...

"I'm off to see the wizard, the wonderful wizard of oz, because because because because because...!!" :cheesy:

Don't mind me.