Book on Mysore

melakartha · Post by **melakartha** » 09 Jun 2008, 01:35

Hi all,

I was searching for carnatic music history related books. Came across an interesting book on history of Mysore Kings Udaiyars called "Splendours of Royal Mysore" by Vikram Sampath. Interesting chapters and beautiful photographs. One chapter was dedicated to Classical Music in Mysore giving very valuable details abt Mysore COmpsoers' lives and composition details. Also there was extract from famous vainika Veenai Jayanthi Kumaresh's thesis on Mysore Bani of playing Saraswati Veenai and how it is different from Tanjore style. It was interesting to see how Mysore had so many vainika vidwans...any experts here who would know the reason why? Sheshanna, Shamanna, subbana, venkatagirappa, padmanabahaya. doreswamy iyengar....long list is given by Mr Vikram and also details of their life history. Just wanted to share with all abt this book. On googling i found the author has also put anice website on this

www.vikramsampath.com

Only the book is too expensive and bulky.. cant hold it and read while sleeping:) has to be sat and read with religiousness !!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 09 Jun 2008, 02:12

The description of the book at www.vikramsampath.com is quite fascinating. I will try to get the book. Thanks for the reference melakartha.

melakartha · Post by **melakartha** » 10 Jun 2008, 11:27

You are most welcome vasanthakokilam. a few interesting snippets i found from the classical music chapter (26) of the book. It starts with a very dramatic episode around the life of Mysore Sadashiva Rao..A musician of a neighbouring kingdom visits him and calls himself an expert of the raga todi. he has pledged that raga for a zamindar and refuses to sing that. Sadashiva Rao then decides to break his arrogance in his own way and in an all-night concert of only todi, he makes the visiting musician eat humble pie by exposing beautiful facets of the raga. Some of Vikram's observations in this context here really captivated me and i think i should share this with other members too

"Music, he thought, could teach one nothing but humility. The deeper one explored the ocean of music, the more one realised how little one knew and how many more lifetimes it would take to explore a fraction of this vast ocean. Rao firmly believed that only by subsuming the ego of the â€˜Iâ€™ did the birth of a true musician become possible. "

"In India there has always been a subtle difference between a â€˜musicianâ€™ and an â€˜artistâ€™â€” the former is one who knows music while the latter improvises with the music he knows."

King Mummadi Krishnaraja 's Sritatvanidhi discussion was alsov interesting. The compaison between that and the Ragamala paintings of the North is worth thinking abt. Apparently Ragas and raginis and ragaputras have been given human form by the KIng and so have the various Talas and their angas. For eg. he quotes from the sritatvanidhi abt Raga Deepaka:

"A shy heroine waits for her hero in a reclining cot. When the hero enters, the maid moves out with the lamps, thus making the room dark. But the shine of the jewel from the heroâ€™s crown is so bright that the entire room is illuminated, and the heroine posing shyness turns to the other side, hiding her face from the hero. "

Abt Sadashiva Rao many anecodtes were mentioned which were v interesting. WHen he sang "Narasimhudu Dayinchenuâ€™ in Raga Kamalamanohari, as he progressed towards the Anupallavi line â€˜Sarasijasanandamu Pagulaâ€™, a portrait of Lord Narasimha that hung on the wall beside the stage cracked and the glass smashed into smithereens! This was because he forgot to follow some prescribed rituals for the deity.

I have to go beyond the sub-chapter on Sadashiva Rao and will share any other interesting snippets of this nature. But i think it is a fantastic read and brings to light the lives and times of many musicians very well in this chapter. Of course havent read the political history portion as that is of little interest to me

melakartha · Post by **melakartha** » 10 Jun 2008, 11:28

Does anyone have more idea abt these Raga mala paintings and the Sritatvanidhi? Is the Sritatvanidhi available to read somewhere? I think the author Vikram Sampath is also a forumite, as i saw some posts related to Bombay Jayashri by one such person...is that the same person or someone else? Would want to know more abt this fabulous manuscript of sritatvanidhi.. someone please help.

Lakshman · Post by **Lakshman** » 11 Jun 2008, 02:34

There is anothr book titled "Musical Composers during Wodeyar Dynasty" by Dr.Meera Rajaram Pranesh. It covers the Odeyars from Yaduraya (1399-1423) to Jayachamaraja Odeyar (1940-1947).
It is reasonably priced at Rs.150.00 and is published by Vee Emm Publications, Jayanagar, Bangalore. contact person: [email protected]

Ramaprasad · Post by **Ramaprasad** » 11 Jun 2008, 08:49

Please allow me to add one more book to the growing list here. "Mysore As A Seat Of Music", by Dr. M. B. Vedavalli, CBH Publications, Trivandrum, India. 1992

Ramaprasad

melakartha · Post by **melakartha** » 13 Jun 2008, 00:00

Thanks so much Lakshman and Ramprasad. I managed to get the book suggested by Lakshman. It is also quite a comprehensive account. IS Dr Meera Rajaram Bangalore based? What about Mr Vikram Sampath ? WOuld anyone know his contact details? Wanted to meet these scholars to get more insight on the topic. If someone knows kindly help.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 13 Jun 2008, 02:27

Vikram Sampath's website probably has a way to contact him

melakartha · Post by **melakartha** » 15 Jun 2008, 11:16

Thanks Ramakriya...it just didnt strike me that the website would be the best way of reaching him, being not-so tech savvy!

incidentally today's Indian express seems to have some story abt this very topic. I think the person who has written it is the musician Anil Srinivasan who recently did a fusion album with Gurucharan. I didnt know the gentleman writes also and he writes so well too !:)

http://www.newindpress.com/sunday/sunda ... re&rLink=0

http://www.newindpress.com/sunday/sunda ... re&rLink=0

melakartha · Post by **melakartha** » 15 Jun 2008, 11:20

Is it true that Mysore Vasudevachar fell out with Maharaja Jayachamaraj because the latter forced him to ghost-write his Kritis? This has been a rumour and that is why they said the Acharya moved away to Madras in a huff to Kalakshetra. I was hoping to get some insight into that from Vikram's book. But he hasnt mentioned anything abt it, may be to steer clear of controversy

does anyone have any light to shed on this issue?

srividya_prakash · Post by **srividya_prakash** » 15 Jun 2008, 21:29

Deleted

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 15 Jun 2008, 23:56

What I have heard was that MV refused to compose in Kannada which was the root cause. JC was a great scholar and it is unlikely that he needed a ghost writer. I never understood why MV refused to compose in anything other than Sanskrit and Telugu (language of his Guru) though Kannada was his mother tongue. He even held a strong view that no other language was suitable for CM compositions. I hope CM Historians would clarify some of these puzzling issues.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 16 Jun 2008, 01:30

Strange how the world over, through centuries, this has happened--Shakespeare did not write the plays, Swati Tirunal did not compose either! I have also heard that the renowned scholar, Professor Yamunacharya penned JC's krutis! The more elevated one is in station, the less it is believed that one has the capacity to create. It could also be a matter of envy when such rumors are generated...

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 16 Jun 2008, 02:38

...and of course God is not our creator; we simply evolved

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 16 Jun 2008, 04:30

CML,
Ah, you are back!

melakartha · Post by **melakartha** » 16 Jun 2008, 20:55

CML, that was very interesting abt MV's opposition to Kannada composition. In fact i had the pleasure of contacting Mr Vikram through his website and he replied very much the same rationale about MV's moving on to Madras. He did mention to me though that one can really be not so sure abt this hypothesis however and it wa Nalwadi Krishnaraja Udaiyar and not JCW who prevailed on MV for Kannada kritis.He pointed out that JCW was no great patron of Kannada for music lyrics since none of his 94 compositions are in Kannada but in Sanskrit. So it would have been unlikely that he would have forced his Guru and a senior Vidwan for this. But NKR IV was certainly bent on this was what he mentioned. But yes, this is the popular belief that most people hold, according to Vikram. i think that makes sense.

Anyway it was a pleasure talking to a fine gentleman like him; he seems to have great knowledge on the subject and was mentioning abt his next book on Carnatic music as well. Given the beautiful language and the manner of presentation of this book (it almost flows like poetry in some places!), i am sure that that next book would be a valuable asset for a lot of us Carnatic rasikas. !

CML, u mentioned abt Swati Tirunal not composing his kritis...is this the Semmangudi-Balachnder duel that ur talkiing abt?

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 16 Jun 2008, 22:43

melakartha wrote:mentioned abt Swati Tirunal not composing his kritis...is this the Semmangudi-Balachnder duel that ur talkiing abt?

A small request - can this be taken offline? The muckraking that went on with that 'duel' does not deserve to be aired publicly again, IMO!

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 16 Jun 2008, 22:51

cmlover wrote:What I have heard was that MV refused to compose in Kannada which was the root cause. JC was a great scholar and it is unlikely that he needed a ghost writer. I never understood why MV refused to compose in anything other than Sanskrit and Telugu (language of his Guru) though Kannada was his mother tongue. He even held a strong view that no other language was suitable for CM compositions. I hope CM Historians would clarify some of these puzzling issues.

I don't know if MV refused to compose in Kannada - He has one kriti in Saraswati Manohari in Kannada to his credit.

And, I am not sure if Odeyar would force(?) him to compose in kannaDa, when he himself composed all his kritis in Samskrita!

-Ramakriya

melakartha · Post by **melakartha** » 16 Jun 2008, 23:27

Ramakriya, yes exactly the same point made vy Vikram too that while that was the popular belief held abt MV-JCW, it doesnt seem to be the cause since udaiyar himself composed in Sanskrit. But even NKR IV coercing MV seems little odd. In the book Vikram states that MV was almost a father-figure for the young Krishnaraja after the untimely death of his father Chamarajendra.
Quoting from the book:

"He (MYsore Vasudevacharyar) was extremely close to the King Chamarajendra and is said to have accompanied him on many of his tours. In fact he even performed the Kingâ€™s last rites in Kashi upon the young man's untimely death in Calcutta in 1894. This perhaps made him something of a father-figure for the young Prince Krishnaraja and gave him referrant power over the boy. He was also given the responsibility of teaching Sanskrit to the young Prince. It appears that Vasudevacharya took his job a little too seriously and did not think twice before smacking the knuckles of his own king! So much so that the Prince had to plead: â€˜Please be soft Gurugale, it pains!â€™

So not sure if Krishnaraja too would have forced smone like that. But a few pages later Vikram does hint to this simmerng tension in a breeze where he says:

"He has used Telugu and Sanskrit as the media for his kritis. The lyrical Telugu in his kritis is chaster than that of his contemporaries. He was not too comfortable with the usage of Kannada in classical music compositions and seems to have had many an argument with the Maharaja in this regard. "

So it does seem a puzzle!

melakartha · Post by **melakartha** » 16 Jun 2008, 23:29

rshankar--i am not sure what offline means and i really didnt intend to bring uncomfortable things into discussion. If something is a fact of history, it is...and rubbing it under the carpet helps no one i feel.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 17 Jun 2008, 00:12

I agree with Shankar that we should leave out the Balachandar/Swaati controversy.

I see the point that JC himseld does not appear to be a fan of Kannada's role in CM. In fact his predecesor was a greater enthusiast of CM in KarNaTaka whence the mystery of MV's rebellion. On the other hand HMB (a Tamil) the CM genius composed mainly in kannada and sanskrit and it is a pity that the then CM greats paid little attention to his musical excellence (Not that they do now

We know for good that were it not for the genius of Thyagarja Telugu would not have found its place in CM as did Tamil through the efforts of PS (rightly named the Tamil Thyagaraja). Swati in spite of his Royal prerogative did not afford Malayalam the honour of being a CM language as much as he focussed on Hindi (in which he appears to have failed miserably). Coming back, it will be interesting to know how Kannada lost the battle of CM in spite of the advantage it had with Purandara and other dasas.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 17 Jun 2008, 01:11

There is another aspect: most composers would tell you that they can't compose on other's bidding.There might not have been such a fuss over composing in kannaDA either.
We do not know whether he had other reasons too for moving. Chennai scene? Kalakshetra? Family matters?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 17 Jun 2008, 05:50

Quite true. Creativity is spontaneous! We have heard that T's mother was a good singer of Purandara kritis. It is quite likely that he has heard them as a child. He definitely also knew Tamil since he was growing up at the Tamil agrahaaram. But the inner urge made him compose only in Telugu (of course Sanskrit too sporadically due to his vedic training. MV's language , especially sanskrit is very chaste and hence he could compose quite naturally in that language as did MD. OVK was quite versatile in both sanskrit and Tamil. In fact his Tamil kritis display his musical genius and hence it is a pity that his original music was lost to CM. If only he had a sishya parampara the history of 19th century CM would have been quite different!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 17 Jun 2008, 09:22

While on the topic of HMB and MV, I happened to listen to Harikesanallur Muthiah Bhagavathar's matE malayadhwaja and MV's BrOchevAravarurA with in an hour of each other and felt that the two songs had a lot of affinity to each other. I am using "affinity" loosely and "similarity" may be too strong. I would say this is along the lines of the Viriboni Bhairav Varnam and SS's Bhairavi Swarajathi. What was the relationship between HMB and MV, if any? Does any of you feel the affinity that I felt between those two Khamas pieces? Of these two pieces, which came first?

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 17 Jun 2008, 10:43

I agree with you VK. There is a strong "affinity" as you say , between the Khamas masterpieces " Mathe Malayadhwaja" and "Broche va". Very similar to Thyagaraja's "Manasu Nilpa Shakthi" and Gopalakrishna Bharathi's "Sabapathiku" in Abhogi.

My guess is "Broche Va" came first. I may be wrong though

nksangita · Post by **nksangita** » 17 Jun 2008, 13:12

Hello, I am a musician and i am glad that i have now joined the rasikas. I wish to say a few things about sri jayachamaraja Wodeyar and his Kritis. I do not know who spreads these rumors as to MV composed raja's kritis. anybody who takes even a casual look at the now available 97+ kritis (the famous Chintalapali Parampara has some rare and unpublished kirits of maharaja in their repertoire) will reveal that the kritis are filled with a vidya called 'Srividya'. MV was not a Srividya Upasaka. not even one reference is there in any of his kritis. the literary style is very different too. in this connection let me tell another interesting fact. during the time of Krishnaraja wodeyer, the kind had delegated some sanksrit scholars (on pay of a hefty salary of Rs.8/10 each - during that time, it was a great sum of money that could keep a huge family happily fed for over three months) who would help the other mysore composers to form 'maatu - literary content' to their compositions which were mainly 'dhaatu - musical notation'. Sri MV was a very good friend and respected elder to our family and our eldest uncle used to have many discussion with him. based on all this and some contemporary knowledge, my father Dr.R.S. has penned a text critically edited complete compilation of all the notated kritis Sri JCW where all these aspects are dealt with in absolute detail. the book will be published in a few months and i will bring it to your attention as soon as it is out of the printers. thanks

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 17 Jun 2008, 19:55

Welcome to the forum

There are many R.S. fans here, including yours truly.

-Ramakriya

vs_manjunath · Post by **vs_manjunath** » 17 Jun 2008, 20:39

Love to have a Copy of Sri JCW's compositions. nksangita-thanks for this info & please let us know abt it.

SSK · Post by **SSK** » 18 Jun 2008, 09:41

I don't understand why any Maharaja of Mysore, wouldn't request any scholar and / or asthana vidwan to to compose krithis for him. After all the Maharaja's of Mysore were great patrons of indian and western music. They obviously had any plenty of money to pay vidwans and musicians to compose. The vidwans and musicians those days largely survived on the patronage of Maharaja's. There may be people who know the hisory of these topics well. But they may not admit to it in public forum.

On a slightly different Muthiah Bhagavathar composed many compositions in Kannada with sahithyam provided by Sri Devothamma Shastry of Mysore ( a lesser known but a great scholar). Prof. Mysore V. Ramarathnam shared some of these insights in a recent interview with Shri Ravikiran published in the April issue of Sruthi Magazine. When Ravikiran asked him in the interview about Mysore Maharaja's composition, he kept very clearly away from the topic and chose not to comment. He simply said that the Maharaja Jaya Chama Rajendra Wodeyar was a scholar and he was capable of composing on his own.

Bottom line if a king wanted some thing done, he definitely had the means to do it.

Vikram_Sampath79 · Post by **Vikram_Sampath79** » 19 Jun 2008, 21:08

Hello all,

I was quite pleasantly surprised, when told by a friend, that there was a discussion that had begun on rasikas regarding my book. It was very heartening to see all the comments in thsi thread ..and of course the other debates just go to show that people care and are interested to delve deeper into the musical history angle of Mysore. Thanks to Ramabadran Sir (a.k.a. Melakartha) for starting this off...it was a pleasure talking to you as well..

Regards
Vikram.

shruti · Post by **shruti** » 21 Jun 2008, 13:33

I wonder if Mr. Vikram Sampth endorses the views on Maharaja attributed to him ? If yes, what is the historical basis for such a view ? Is it based on hearsay or has he got any UNTOLD story to tell ?

Admin Note: Members are requested to maintain decorum at all times. Swear words are strictly forbidden here.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 21 Jun 2008, 23:32

shruti wrote:I wonder if Mr. Vikram Sampth endorses the views on Maharaja attributed to him ? If yes, what is the historical basis for such a view ? Is it based on hearsay or has he got any UNTOLD story to tell ?

Why did you get that feeling? I think his reply does not tell any such thing!

I think it is in appropriate for us to make a judgement without reading the book.

p.s: Just let me clarify that I do not know Vikram Sampath personally, nor have I read his book .

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 22 Jun 2008, 01:36

Even if one reads the book and does not like it, no big deal. But to sling ****with the very opening line! Sorry, decorum in expressing our thoughts is appreciated...

Vikram_Sampath79 · Post by **Vikram_Sampath79** » 22 Jun 2008, 07:04

shruti wrote:I wonder if Mr. Vikram Sampth endorses the views on Maharaja attributed to him ? If yes, what is the historical basis for such a view ? Is it based on hearsay or has he got any UNTOLD story to tell ?

Shruti, I dont know which view you are referring to and seekng my opinion. If it is abt the ghost writing of JCW kritis by MV, i think Melakartha sir has already written abt what i thought abt this (from the little knowledge i have abt the topic). I really cant see any reason for this uncalled for hostility !!:)

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 22 Jun 2008, 07:53

Or (apa) Shruti

shruti · Post by **shruti** » 23 Jun 2008, 15:53

I seem to have stirred a hornets nest ! Well my clarifications may create more ! Well having entered the lions den , i have no choice but to see if i can survive the onslaught !
First my comments were about the quality of discussion in this particular thread not about the book by Vikram !!! My query to Vikram was about what melakratha said:

In fact i had the pleasure of contacting Mr Vikram through his website and he replied very much the same rationale about MV's moving on to Madras.

Hope this will assuage the feelings of Vikram to some extent !

shruti · Post by **shruti** » 23 Jun 2008, 15:56

ramakriya wrote:Why did you get that feeling? I think his reply does not tell any such thing!

I think it is in appropriate for us to make a judgement without reading the book.

p.s: Just let me clarify that I do not know Vikram Sampath personally, nor have I read his book .

Ramakriya, is it appropriate to slander a dead man and his works as ghost written , by people who did not know him either personally or knows his contemporaries ( As most of them are not alive)

shruti · Post by **shruti** » 23 Jun 2008, 16:04

arasi wrote:Or (apa) Shruti

apa shruti !! what wit and sarcasm !!

it comes naturally to a composer , i suppose !!When you cast blasphemous remarks about a dead man's composition, then it is not apashruti ??

shruti · Post by **shruti** » 23 Jun 2008, 16:09

arasi wrote:I have also heard that the renowned scholar, Professor Yamunacharya penned JC's krutis! The more elevated one is in station, the less it is believed that one has the capacity to create. It could also be a matter of envy when such rumors are generated...

You need some more names to add to the gossip mill?

Prof. Satyagirinathan, Guru Dutt, Prod. RAmachnadra Rao, Vid. Venkatagiriyappa....

the list is endless.

arasi , is it a sin to be a arasa (King ). A king cannot compose because he can pay and get it ghost written ?

shruti · Post by **shruti** » 23 Jun 2008, 16:13

Vikram_Sampath79 wrote:Shruti, I dont know which view you are referring to and seekng my opinion. If it is abt the ghost writing of JCW kritis by MV, i think Melakartha sir has already written abt what i thought abt this (from the little knowledge i have abt the topic). I really cant see any reason for this uncalled for hostility !!:)

From the little knowledge i have about the topic !!!

Probably you wee not even born when Maharaja dies , so not much can be said about your knowledge on this topic !!

well will the author of the following article and stand up and clarify please;

The music of Mysore reached its zenith during the rule of Jayachamaraja Wodeyar.
He was a prolific composer and a greatly talented musician himself.
His 94 compositions are an invaluable contribution to the treasure of Carnatic music and have made their way into the repertoire of South India's reputed musicians. He used rare ragas such as Durvanki (Gam Ganapathe), Prathapavarali (puri bhagyalahari){sic} and Bhogavasantha (Amba Sri). Composers have traditionally played a very important role in the development of Carnatic music. It is they who through their compositions established the grammar and bhava of the many hundreds of ragas that are vogue in Carnatic music today.
As mentioned earlier, Jayachamaraja Wodeyar had a brilliant academic track-record (As mentioned earlier? Where? Was this lifted from some other article?} and was first taught Western music on the piano, along with his sister Vijaya Devi, by Sister Ignatius. He received high honours in the annual examinations conducted by Trinity College of Music, London.
Western classical music became a passion with him. He not only became a good musician but also a composer {Are you suggesting he composed in western music also}. He was responsible for forming the Medtner Society in honour of the Russian composer Nikolai Karlovich Medtner. {Not in Honour !!! Till then he was an unknown composer, no record of him was available. Maharaja under the above society produced his entire work and to this day it remains the only source}
{I advice also see:
1. http://www.scena.org/lsm/sm13-6/medtner-en.html
2. http://books.google.co.in/books?id=zX6i ... &ct=result
3. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... 90,00.html
4. http://www.naxos.com/artistinfo/Louis_K ... 6/2026.htm
5. http://www.philharmonia.co.uk/thephilha ... atimeline/ }
After 1940, when he came in contact with many eminent Carnatic musicians like Vasudevacharya, Ariyakudi, Tiger Varadachariar and others, his interests gravitated more towards the Carnatic style. His knowledge of music, Sanskrit and philosophy was the basis of his 94kritis in Sanskrit. He has followed the Muttuswamy Dikshitar style in composing pallavi and anupallavi portions. The lyrical beauty and complexity of words are the hallmarks of his kritis, many being set to the mishra jhampetala. He was a Srividya Upasaka or a devotee of the Goddess. His compositions therefore use phrases like Sri Vidya Shodashankshari, Akaradi Khshakaranta in the kriti Amba Sri Rajarajeswari (Raga Bhogavasanta), Shodashakshari kundalamale and Navantaragata vasagate in Bale brihat sruti mule (Raga Simhendra Madyama) which are rich in symbolism of the divine feminine and tantric lore.
Apart from the usual ragas, he also composed in rare and new ragas like Bala Chandrika, Bhanu Chandrika, Hamsanatini, Hamsavinodini, Bhupala Panchama, Suranandini, Jayasamvardhini, Neelaveni, and so on.
The royal insignia was the mythical bird Gandabherunda and the bracelets given away as gifts to renowned musicians were embossed with this symbol. Other eminent musicians at the royal court of Mysore during this time were Tiger Varadachariar, Chennakeshavaiah, Titte Krishna Iyengar, S.N. Mariappa, Chintalapalli Ramachandra Rao, R.N.Doreswamy, H.M. Vaidyanatha Bhagavathar and others

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 23 Jun 2008, 16:14

Shruti - if you have issues with some of the points made by Sri Vikram in his book, why don't you detail them here in a measured manner instead of taking a combative approach with your first posts in this community. Those with knowledge in the subject can then constructively debate your posts and all of us will be able to learn from the discussion. Thanks.

paddu · Post by **paddu** » 23 Jun 2008, 16:18

is it appropriate to slander a dead man and his works as ghost written , by people who did not know him either personally or knows his contemporaries

Shruti I second your thoughts.

However, we could discuss the points made in this book with an open mind.

shruti · Post by **shruti** » 23 Jun 2008, 16:24

I am sorry folks , if i have offended. But i felt quite strongly about the comments by some of the veterans of this post. Except may be CML, others seem to be irreverent to the legends they are discussing.

I will log off for the present and see what others have to say.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 23 Jun 2008, 20:29

shruti,
I may have the wit as your post suggests, but not clarity! Let me try again.
I am all for learning from the discussions that come up here. If you go through the posts again, you will find that a majority of folks here are open-minded.
You are right. Anyone in an elevated position gets to be a target for gossip-mongers--especially when one is gifted: money and station in life can 'buy' anything, and so on, goes the notion. I merely have a royal name but I am a commoner. So, no question there about my writings being ghost written for whatever they are worth.

My reaction--let me make it clear--was to your opening line, not the content of your post. When we use expletives, it puts the reader off and puts you in a position wherein there is a chance of your not being
taken seriously. Even our objective views may be ignored, influenced by such an opening.
As for adding to the list of ghost writers, I did not mean to say that JCW's compositions were ghost-written, and that too by a particular individual!

Vikram_Sampath79 · Post by **Vikram_Sampath79** » 23 Jun 2008, 21:18

Probably you wee not even born when Maharaja dies , so not much can be said about your knowledge on this topic !!

Shruti

I find this the strangest logic that i have ever been confounded with that one can possess knowledge of ONLY things we see, things that are contemporary to us and have happened in our lifetime. With average life spans of ppl being not more than 60-70 yrs nowadays, going by your logic, ppl would have no qualification to speak abt anything beyond since they "were not even born" before that !! History then is just a subject of gossip mongerers and jobless people who love to spread canards and slander !!! Wish you show a little more respect to other people's research, intentions and efforts...

I really dont know waht Melakartha sir conveyed or understood of what i said. I told him that the so-called belief that some ppl hold (rightly or wrongly) is abt this entire angle of ghost writing. But if u read through the entire post of even Melakartha sir and not selectively pick up sentences for scoring brownie points, you would realise that i told him it seems so unlikely that that was the case, nor also the fact that he forced Kannada down the throat of the Acharya, he himself having never composed in Kannada. Also the reverence he had for the acharya was so great, especially when u hear his speech in the MUsic Academy. So i am not sure what your problem really is !

Vikram_Sampath79 · Post by **Vikram_Sampath79** » 23 Jun 2008, 21:33

shruti wrote:
Vikram_Sampath79 wrote:Shruti, I dont know which view you are referring to and seekng my opinion. If it is abt the ghost writing of JCW kritis by MV, i think Melakartha sir has already written abt what i thought abt this (from the little knowledge i have abt the topic). I really cant see any reason for this uncalled for hostility !!:)
From the little knowledge i have about the topic !!!

Probably you wee not even born when Maharaja dies , so not much can be said about your knowledge on this topic !!

well will the author of the following article and stand up and clarify please;

The music of Mysore reached its zenith during the rule of Jayachamaraja Wodeyar.
He was a prolific composer and a greatly talented musician himself.
His 94 compositions are an invaluable contribution to the treasure of Carnatic music and have made their way into the repertoire of South India's reputed musicians. He used rare ragas such as Durvanki (Gam Ganapathe), Prathapavarali (puri bhagyalahari){sic} and Bhogavasantha (Amba Sri). Composers have traditionally played a very important role in the development of Carnatic music. It is they who through their compositions established the grammar and bhava of the many hundreds of ragas that are vogue in Carnatic music today.
As mentioned earlier, Jayachamaraja Wodeyar had a brilliant academic track-record (As mentioned earlier? Where? Was this lifted from some other article?} and was first taught Western music on the piano, along with his sister Vijaya Devi, by Sister Ignatius. He received high honours in the annual examinations conducted by Trinity College of Music, London.
Western classical music became a passion with him. He not only became a good musician but also a composer {Are you suggesting he composed in western music also}. He was responsible for forming the Medtner Society in honour of the Russian composer Nikolai Karlovich Medtner. {Not in Honour !!! Till then he was an unknown composer, no record of him was available. Maharaja under the above society produced his entire work and to this day it remains the only source}
{I advice also see:
1. http://www.scena.org/lsm/sm13-6/medtner-en.html
2. http://books.google.co.in/books?id=zX6i ... &ct=result
3. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... 90,00.html
4. http://www.naxos.com/artistinfo/Louis_K ... 6/2026.htm
5. http://www.philharmonia.co.uk/thephilha ... atimeline/ }
After 1940, when he came in contact with many eminent Carnatic musicians like Vasudevacharya, Ariyakudi, Tiger Varadachariar and others, his interests gravitated more towards the Carnatic style. His knowledge of music, Sanskrit and philosophy was the basis of his 94kritis in Sanskrit. He has followed the Muttuswamy Dikshitar style in composing pallavi and anupallavi portions. The lyrical beauty and complexity of words are the hallmarks of his kritis, many being set to the mishra jhampetala. He was a Srividya Upasaka or a devotee of the Goddess. His compositions therefore use phrases like Sri Vidya Shodashankshari, Akaradi Khshakaranta in the kriti Amba Sri Rajarajeswari (Raga Bhogavasanta), Shodashakshari kundalamale and Navantaragata vasagate in Bale brihat sruti mule (Raga Simhendra Madyama) which are rich in symbolism of the divine feminine and tantric lore.
Apart from the usual ragas, he also composed in rare and new ragas like Bala Chandrika, Bhanu Chandrika, Hamsanatini, Hamsavinodini, Bhupala Panchama, Suranandini, Jayasamvardhini, Neelaveni, and so on.
The royal insignia was the mythical bird Gandabherunda and the bracelets given away as gifts to renowned musicians were embossed with this symbol. Other eminent musicians at the royal court of Mysore during this time were Tiger Varadachariar, Chennakeshavaiah, Titte Krishna Iyengar, S.N. Mariappa, Chintalapalli Ramachandra Rao, R.N.Doreswamy, H.M. Vaidyanatha Bhagavathar and others

1. "As mentioned earlier"----> if u turn ur page back to page no 657 of the book, it has a quotation of Rani Vijaya Devi, JCW's sister taken from her 'A tribute from her sister' souvenir. Here she speaks abt her brother's early proficiency in western classical music. Going back to chapter 24, page 594-595-596, speaks of JCW's childhood years, his academic track record. For anyone who reads the book in succession, the "as mentioned ealier " doesnt seem to stick out...I certainly didnt foresee any individual picking bits and pieces from here and there and asking me the sourc; instead of reading the chapters in succession and an open mind !:)

2. I dont understand what is wrong in the usage of the word "honour" ---just because medtner was unknown? Of course after a relay of the compositions of Medtner on the BBC, JCW wrote to his acquaintances in London greatly appreciating the pieces and asked more abt the composer. But he heard from them tha Medtner was too poor to have his works recorded and published and hence the Maharaja graciously sponsored the genius composer and his 12 compositions were published under the name and title of the 'Maharaja of Mysore's Medtner society'. But, we shouldnt say he "honoured" anyone, right!!?

melakartha · Post by **melakartha** » 23 Jun 2008, 21:47

I am realy amazed and also sorry that members on this forum take on things lke this. in such a violent manner. I am an old man and may be i am not too good at english and could not correctly convey my thoughts of what Mr Vikram told me over the brief telephone discussion we had. I never knew that that can become a cause of so much heated talk. My only wish was to draw attention to some music and book lovers abt a book i found fascinating and also most importantly by a young man who is not related to the topic by training. It must have taken some passion of his to have been a science student and yet researched and written such an exhaustive book on a different topic, Thats all i wanted to convey and share. But if reactions are so violent, i dont know if i made the right choice stopping at this forum also. I am sorry Mr vikram that i actually misrepresnted what you told me and that in a way has pulled you also in an ugly debate---something you certainly dont deserve !

Shruti sir/madam, it cerainly seems you must be the only competent authority to talk on this subject having seen the happenings in the mysore court through your own eyes. So it is better we all keep quiet and listen to your wise words.

But yes, i just turned 78 recently and have spent a large portion of my life in erstwhile Mysore state and had the glorious fortune of meeting His Highness Jayachamarajendra in person. But yes, we are all not his "contemporaries' in the manner that Shruti is !

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 24 Jun 2008, 11:53

Shruti, please do not use swear words or foul language here. I had to edit one of your posts above to remove your opening line.

All discussions should be civil.

shruti · Post by **shruti** » 25 Jun 2008, 15:55

Hi srkris,

I did not know there is a Resident Editor lurking in the corner !

Sorry if have offended your sensibilities ! But still i feel it is much ado about nothing and need we cavil about them ! Peruse some of the following links :

http://209.85.175.104/search?q=cache:Po ... =firefox-a

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/20 ... otal-crap/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/st ... a0a81a.htm

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/commen ... 908244.ece

foul language and Civil are indeed strong words. You should have been more concerned about malicious and unsubstantiated writings in this thread which per se defamatory and see what IPC 499, 500 and 501 says !
Some ridicule me as apashruti, some address me as Shruti sir/madam, some say i am combative and some violent for stating the obvious ! Some write something in the book and say the contrary in this forum . Strange are the ways of this world ! Any way it is your prerogatives and will try to be a Roma n when i am in Rome !

shruti · Post by **shruti** » 25 Jun 2008, 16:02

melakartha wrote:Shruti sir/madam, it cerainly seems you must be the only competent authority to talk on this subject having seen the happenings in the mysore court through your own eyes. So it is better we all keep quiet and listen to your wise words.

But yes, i just turned 78 recently and have spent a large portion of my life in erstwhile Mysore state and had the glorious fortune of meeting His Highness Jayachamarajendra in person. But yes, we are all not his "contemporaries' in the manner that Shruti is !

Sir, thanks for your comments dripping in sarcasm. To start with i am far too young and was not even born when HH died. So I am not what you think i am. I am sorry if i have hurt your sentiments . But i have hardly commented on what you have stated ( though there is plenty i can comment). So why are you apologetic to VS !

But let me say if i had the the glorious fortune of meeting His Highness Jayachamarajendra in person, then i would not have written what you have stated.
When i am saying contemporaries , it is about who knew him intimately .
Read what one of them has to state:

The late Maharaja of Mysore
Jayachamarajendra Wadiyar

Dr. V. Raghavan

There has been a tradition from ancient times of learning and patronage of learning and arts among Indian Kings. King Bhoja has gone into our vocabulary as a byword for learning and generous patronage to poets and scholars; and many later Kings considered it an honour to be called Abhinava Bhoja or Dakshina Bhoja. The late Highness of Mysore was a Dakshina Bhoja. â€˜Dakshinaâ€™ is an attribute fitting him in more ways than one, meaning as it does not merely â€˜of the South' but â€˜liberalâ€™ and having a sense of â€˜dakshinyamâ€™ he could never say â€˜noâ€™ to a request or a good cause. If he was convinced of the value of a particular work, he would of himself offer help.

It is in the last mentioned way that the present writer happened to become closely associated with him. I had seen him first when he was quite young, in the thirties, the All-India Oriental Conference met in Mysore and his uncle the distinguished connoisseur and patron, H. H. Sri Krishnarajendra Wadiyar inaugurated the conference. I was however following the growing interests of
Sri Jayachamarajendra Wadiyar, particularly in the field of Indian Aesthetics â€˜Alamkara Sastraâ€™. I used to hear of his interest in this subject also from my colleague Prof. M. Ramachandra Rao of the University of Mysore. The Maharajah gave an Endowment Lecture on Indian Aesthetics under the University of Madras where I was Professor of Sanskrit. I had known that he had gone through my book â€˜Bhoja's Sringara Prakasaâ€™ an important contribution to this field of studies. Only half of it had been published at that time. Suddenly one day I received from H. H. a letter written by him from Salem Camp during his tour saying that he was interested in seeing the whole treatise in print and would do whatever was needed for it. This explains the appearance of my magnum opus in 1963, and its dedication to Jaya Chamarajendra Wadiyar. That year he had invited me for the Dasarah festival and during his days of worship of Devi, my homage to Sarasvati, in the form of this book was formally given by me in person to him.

Our relationship grew; he invited me and my wife to his daughter's marriage.
Whenever I went for a meeting in the Mysore University, I called on him. I requested him to preside and address the Foundation Day celebrations of the
Kuppuswami Sastri Research Institute, Madras, and this he did, with Dr. C. P. Ramaswami Iyer in the chair. He also became a Patron of our Institute. He describes Sanskrit in his Address here as a â€˜living symbol of a long unbroken traditionâ€™ and as one that â€˜abounds in mental and spiritual riches of unique value.â€™ It also shows that â€˜real unity is unity of cultureâ€™.

A little later, knowing his deep knowledge and interest in music we invited him to inaugurate the Conference of the Madras Music Academy. When we called on him at the Raj Bhavan, Madras, to invite him to the Music Academy, in the course of our conversation, he spoke of my work on â€˜Srlngara Prakasaâ€™.

Our relations grew closer still when H. H. became Chairman of the Sangeet Natak Akademi, Delhi, with whose Executive and other committees I had been associated from the inception of the Akademi. It was during his presidentship of the S. N. Akademi that the Award of Fellowships was taken up earnestly and systematically and I was one of those to receive a Fellowship during his regime.

The association developed into a further degree of more frequent meetings when H. H. accepted to be Governor of Madras. It was at that time, he declared open the new Auditorium of the Music Academy, Madras.

H. H. was endowed with great Bhakti and pilgrimages to great shrines and temples was a regular routine for him. I sometimes had occasion to talk with him on this subject and mention to him two shrines; one near Madras City, Tirupporur, where there was a rare form of God Kumara called 'Brahma-sasta', the â€˜mentor of Brahmaâ€™ on which I had written a paper; and the other was Tiruvarur, my native place in Tanjavur District, where the Carnatic Music Trinity was born and where the Siva Image of Sri Tyagaraja symbolised the high Advaitic mantra called Hamsamantra (Aham sah) both in the conception of iconography and the story related to the Deity and also in the thrilling dance called 'Ajapanatana' which the Image did during the procession. Later I learnt from his Secretary, Sri Subrahmaniam that H. H. visited both these shrines; and Subrahmaniam added that H. H. gave him a discourse so to say on temples, worship and pilgrimage. H. H. took every opportunity to go on pilgrimages and that was one thing which I think attracted him most to Tamil Nadu. During some of his pilgrimages, he took his Mother and H. H.â€™s Matru-bhakti was well known. His work Dattatreya is dedicated to her.

The last time I saw him at Mysore was at one of the smaller palaces, when I had gone there to attend a Sanskrit Seminar in the University. I saw him sitting with half a dozen Pandits. On an earlier occasion when I saw him in his large library, he was in his Vaidika -dress having just come out of a long religious observance he had gone through. At some other times also I had seen him with his Pandits, chiefly Sri Venkatachala Sastri. Although endowed with a liberal outlook and a patron of all faiths, H. H. was particularly a Deviupasaka, initiated in Srividya; he adored Devi as Para Vak.

It is from this point of view that he cherished Sanskrit and attached the highest value to that language. His address (*1st Sept 1957) to the Kuppuswami Sastri Research Institute, he called "Sanskrit, the Repository of Universal Culture and Brahmavidya; (*Journal of oriental Research, Madras, XXVI) as Veda it gives the knowledge of the Brahman, contains the Bijaksharas of Mantras, and the very of â€˜letterâ€™, Varna. is called Akshara meaning the imperishable. Vak and Artha. Word and Meaning, are two in One, Siva-Saktl for whose adoration through poetry Kalidasa, whom he quotes, had shown the way.

His â€˜Religion and Manâ€™ (Orient Longmans, 1965) which represents two lectures delivered by him at the Karnataka University (Nov 1961), is more or less a historical survey of the development of religion from the Vedic times onwards. He affirms in his Preface here that he takes his stand on the Prasthana-traya, the Upanishads, the Brahma Sutras and the Bhagavadgita as interpreted by Sankaracharya. Thus on the philosophical side, he was a firm believer in Advaita. In the course of these two lectures, he brings out the antiquity and endurance of the Vedic religion (p. 9). All the basic concepts of Hinduism are properly explained here. The social aspect of the teaching of the Gita and the concept of Dharma are emphasised (pp. 33, 37).
But over and above all this, he says, is Adhyatma or spirituality, as the Gita itself says â€˜There is no purifier like right knowledgeâ€™ (pp. 38, 39).

It is the ideal of the Jivanmukta, the most advanc'ed form of the Advaitic realised Soul, the Avadhuta, that he adored most. This explains his lecture â€˜Avadhuta: Reason and Reverenceâ€™ (Indian Institute of world Culture, Bangalore: 18 Jan 1958), and his major work â€œDattatreya: The way and the Goalâ€