Question about Carnatic music?

Vishnampettai Jayendran · Post by **Vishnampettai Jayendran** » 01 May 2006, 11:33

Is carnatic music implicitly hindu?
and also does it have to be only about bhakti?

Meaning can i for eg have a secular non religous carnatic composition, not praising god, but say about something more contemporary like environment or politics?
Have there been such compositions?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 01 May 2006, 11:49

Over 170 years ago vedanayagam pillai (a christian convert) who was a contemporary of the Carnatic Trinity composed a number of CM songs called 'sarva samaya samarasa kIrthanaigal'. They were very popular even in the early part of 20th century. But there was a strong bias towards the kirthanas of Trinity in those days which veered CM on the bhakti route. Even today bhakti is still dominant though languaes other than Telugu and Sanskrit are accepted into the fold. But everybody accept that CM is universal without any caste or creed. CM is as much Hindu as HM is Islam and WM is christian!

meena · Post by **meena** » 01 May 2006, 11:58

KJY has rendered on christian themes.

Vishnampettai Jayendran · Post by **Vishnampettai Jayendran** » 01 May 2006, 11:59

ok cool, thats great information.
so in todays 21st century, if someone like vedanayagam pillai where to compose he would be accepted right?
what about bharatiyar?
he wrote lot of raaga based freedom movement songs right?
but those are categorized as light semi-classical folk right?

So who is the authority today who can say, ok this new compositions qualifies as carnatic music.

Jay

Vishnampettai Jayendran · Post by **Vishnampettai Jayendran** » 01 May 2006, 12:04

KJY has rendered on christian themes.

really? I didnt know that. can u give me some title names/album names that i can look up online.
Thanks.

meena · Post by **meena** » 01 May 2006, 12:16

Vishnampettai Jayendran:

can u give me some title names/album names that i can look up online.

VJ

i do not know if he has made any commercial recording, try google, but i've read he has rendered few on kutcheri platform.
here is the text for one, i've few more i have to look where i have filed.
I had posted the texts here, try forum search if ur interested.

christian theme:
karam tandu kAttaruL. rAgA: bAgEshrI. Adi tALA. Sung by Yesudas

P: karam tandu kAttaruL EsuvE karuNAkaranE mAry sutanE
A: Adi manidan sheida pApam pOkka nI anubhavitta vEdanaiyE ulagil peridu
C: manidar kula maNiyAga mari adan maghanAga vAnOrgaL ellOraiyum venru vara siddhi peTravarai
bhayam aruL mAtri emmai bhaktarAkki un pAda paNi sheigai aruL enrum parama dayAnidhiyE

politics- we have quite a few freedom fight songs rendered by smt DKP, smt MSS, mlv list goes on.
we had a long nice thread on independence. yeah what happened to that thread? Did we loose it when the site went kaputt?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 01 May 2006, 12:55

It is interesting CML mentions vedanayagam pillai. That is a very appropriate answer to your question. We recently discussed the song Oh Oh kAlaMe in Sahana by vedanayagam pillai. That is pretty secular though not completely devoid of philosophical content. Sanjay has sung that not as the main piece but the second-tier set of songs with alapana etc. But whether he continues to do so depends on the audience reaction and acceptance.

Of course, love, abandonment and longing are major themes of Javalis and Padams.

Another place where potentially non-religious lyrics can be used is the lyrics of the pallavi of an RTP. But I would think one should be a leading top tier performer to use a serious social message there and get it noticed. The lyrics usually is only a single line and listeners usually do not attribute much weight to the meanings of the lyrics of the Pallavi of the RTP. But it is an interesting thought, if I may say so myself

Having said all that, it all depends on the audience. First of all, do they really listen and understand the lyrics or they are mainly there for the music. I am definitely in the latter category ( no matter what kind of genre it is ) though I am consciously trying to focus on the lyrics in the past couple of years. Second, even if the audience pays attention to the lyrics, will they take any social message content seriously.

Vishnampettai Jayendran · Post by **Vishnampettai Jayendran** » 01 May 2006, 15:40

It is interesting CML mentions vedanayagam pillai. That is a very appropriate answer to your question. We recently discussed the song Oh Oh kAlaMe in Sahana by vedanayagam pillai. That is pretty secular though not completely devoid of philosophical content. Sanjay has sung that not as the main piece but the second-tier set of songs with alapana etc. But whether he continues to do so depends on the audience reaction and acceptance.

Of course, love, abandonment and longing are major themes of Javalis and Padams.

Another place where potentially non-religious lyrics can be used is the lyrics of the pallavi of an RTP. But I would think one should be a leading top tier performer to use a serious social message there and get it noticed. The lyrics usually is only a single line and listeners usually do not attribute much weight to the meanings of the lyrics of the Pallavi of the RTP. But it is an interesting thought, if I may say so myself

Having said all that, it all depends on the audience. First of all, do they really listen and understand the lyrics or they are mainly there for the music. I am definitely in the latter category ( no matter what kind of genre it is ) though I am consciously trying to focus on the lyrics in the past couple of years. Second, even if the audience pays attention to the lyrics, will they take any social message content seriously.

^^^ Shouldnt the above be motivation encough to write relevant lyrics which people can understand and relate to, maybe that will make carnatic music mainstream again. Are there any new artistes doing such work?

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 01 May 2006, 15:48

Having said all that, it all depends on the audience. First of all, do they really listen and understand the lyrics or they are mainly there for the music.

Having been born in Africa and brought up in Australia - my knowledge of Indian languages is pretty poor. Thus, I can't really understand most of the Carnatic music songs. Of course I can recognise a few words here and there but like VK, I am there for the music as well. And yet, I am passionate about Carnatic music!

Vishnampettai Jayendran · Post by **Vishnampettai Jayendran** » 01 May 2006, 16:06

interesting, i guess carnatic music and rap are the 2 extremes then

one, people listen mainly for music and the other mainly for words.
a rap-carnatic fusion album would be cool

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 01 May 2006, 20:48

A beginner starts CM (for that matter any music including FM (Film Music)) for the language. The melody and the message blend with the mood created to produce an ineffable feeling. To understand the technicalities (like sangati, aalaapana, neraval, kalpanasvaram etc.,) one needs to be instructed and demonstrated. Once these techniques and their inner beauties are revealed then the music is of paramount importance and all affinity for the language disappears. However the 'mood' part (call it soul-music if you like) still lingers. That element is linked with bhaakti and culture.

For example KJY has rendered a nice CM song on allah (I think it is in MIO) which he sang at the MA (music academy) with zest. Several eyebrows were raised and the critics were not kind and the Islamic community (fortunately

) ignored it! There is an in-built prejudice among the Rasikas (among all of us!). Those barriers are not easy to break. Once Gandhiji mentioned that 'We Indians choose to be ruled by the British'. But he said 'the British rule is a curse' since it was killing the spirit of India. And it did take a long haul for him to convince our people! If tomorrow CM were to be rendered totally on Islamic or Christian themes a vast majority of our audience will disappear and new recruits won't be forthcoming. Patriotism is something thing different and that was the reason Bharathy's songs appealed to the audience. But you don't hear them anymore since the job is done! MS lead the way by introducing Mira bhajans (which introduced Hindi into CM) but it was a passing fancy!

The bottom line is; Trinity form the Foundation of CM as we pratice today. They chose to link CM with bhakti. A new edifice cannot be built without shaking the foundation. But there is nothing blocking us from taking the tools of CM and building a new edifice based entirely on its principles ane even marrying it with other systems of music. IR (ILayaraja) is trying with moderate success. Fusion is yet again another! We need more such bold experiments!

Vishnampettai Jayendran · Post by **Vishnampettai Jayendran** » 02 May 2006, 03:49

well i think the first step in shaking the foundation would be to secularize the learning processing.

CMLover: I love your progressive views. You rock.

But you mentioned that CM is as hindu as WM is christian.
That is so wrong. early WM music might have been christian, especially when the Roman Catholic Church acted as the culture police in Europe.
but the newer eras of european music.. Renaissance,Baroque,Classical,Romantic became more and more progressive and secular with time.

Today, if i were to start learning piano, for example, I wont be taught religious hymns praising the lord.. the curriculim is very secular.
I dont think this is the case for carnatic music.. where geethams varanams etc are essentially songs praising hindu deities. So its a catch 22 situation,

We need new composers composing a lot of secular kritis, varnams, geethams..everything and those need to be good enough to be part of a modern 21st century curriculum for teaching carnatic music, then the fan and student base will increase widely beyond the south indian barhminical fan base which forms the majority today.
Thats my humble 2 cents on this issue.

I didnt want the discussion to be steered in this direction, I jad first asked the question because of a discussion I had with friends here in seattle. They were all convinced that CM is implicitly hindu, and hindu brahmin, I was not. I am not a vey religious person, I am not a devoted CM fan, I am a rock musician. But whenever I listen to CM, something magnetic draws me to it. I cannot understand the words, if it is a vocal rendition of kritis as I dont understand telugu. But almost all the time i hear references to hindu gods and deities within the song, I cant recall a single CM piece which doesnt refer a hindu deity at some place. But since I cannot understand 99% of the words, and i am still attracted to the music inspite of what i know are references to god, simple logical conclusion would be that the relgiion and musicial content within carnatic music can be decoupled(as my brain is definitely doing it). The relgioous element must be just a cultural thing imposed by the composers, and the cultutral inertia was so high that its stll continuing. But the power of CM must extend beyond something as trivial as religion. That was my personal theory, which I cannot validate against anything.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 02 May 2006, 04:10

VJ,
I agree with you totally. Especially if you want to introduce CM ragas in schools (which is kind of foundation music) or popularise, it must be simple, swara based or secular compositions.Once people grasp the concept, then they will go looking for other compositions and enjoy even the bhakti-laden ones. I often separate the two depending on my mood. If I want to learn my heritage I look for bhakti aspect, otherwise I simply enjoy the ragas.
Offcourse there is another aspect- the language which has its own beauty. I am just fortunate to know 4 languages.
Somehow most composers are bent towards Bhakti. I seem to enjoy all.
I once was asked by a mom to teach her daughter some basics of CM and she was an Indian Catholic. She loved the music( but not her husband who seemed to object because of religion).

You mentioned you are from Seattle. If you are giving any performances(rock) do let us know.

Sramana · Post by **Sramana** » 02 May 2006, 04:12

"But the power of CM must extend beyond something as trivial as religion."

What exactly is trivial about religion? In most of the world before the last hundred years, mankind's most profound feelings and insights were generally expressed with a religious backdrop. Even if music wasn't specifically religious, generally the people composing and performing and writing about it had worldviews that wouldn't exactly be considered "secular" in modern terms. I think each religious tradition has enough facets within it that one can still count as "Hindu" or "Muslim" while experiencing and communicating a very wide range of things. Particularly if you treat the deities and mythological references in CM (for instance) as symbolic and literary devices.

Vishnampettai Jayendran · Post by **Vishnampettai Jayendran** » 02 May 2006, 04:14

i agree its not trivial. i mistated. its the root cause of most problems facing the world today.

jaisrikrishna · Post by **jaisrikrishna** » 02 May 2006, 04:43

and also does it have to be only about bhakti?

let me express my personal perspective here . I would prefer not to get into any arguments.just felt like i should express my views.

Practised with Bhakthi and respect, acceleration in development of good saathvic qualities result and much more (mukthi) as the ultimate fruit . This, I have no doubt. saint thyAgayyA lived and showed us through his various krithis. I say all this based on my l experience of what he conveyed in his krithi "Sangitha JnAnamu bhakthivinA" .

Let me also invite like-minded readers to my blogs ,

http://saptharathnas.blogspot.com
http://krischronicles.blogspot.com

sarvam sEEthArAmachandrArpanam

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 02 May 2006, 04:44

A more factual way of stating that is "some religious factions are the root cause of some of the problems facing the world today"...

(BTW, VJ, that comment by CML on 'as hindu as wm is chrisitian' is meant as a rhetorical ploy to convey the same thing that you said. Right CML? )

Back to the original question: is it Hindu? In practical terms, probably yes but it does not have to be so. In Chennai, there are carnatic music teachers who had re-lyric'd the lessons to be Christian content. Like they teach Vara Veena tune with a Christian theme. If someone needs further info. on such teachers I can get that. In a recent Baptism ceremony I went to, the family sang some songs. It was in Tamil, fully carnatic but content is Christian.

But then the next question is, Is it religious and should it be that way? I do not see why it should be that way. Let us leave aside concerns about concert platform, wide acceptance etc. That may or may not come. But no one is stopping people from composing and teaching CM in secular terms. It will be interesting if someone does that, how the bhava and rasa translate to secular themes. We already know how it translates in CM based film music of the 40s to 60s. vasantha mullai pOle vandhu assindu Adum ven purAvE... Secular, catchy, beautiful and hits the rasa right on. There are hundreds of such songs. But those are currently not heavy enough for a concert platform.

Sramana · Post by **Sramana** » 02 May 2006, 04:45

Hah! I presume you're talking about sectarian violence. That's not the fault of religion per se, that's the fault of doctrinal certainty and us-vs-them-ism.

One way to think about religion and music is to assume that identical experiences of beauty and meaning are available to all people, and different cultures have packaged them in different imagery and with differing details.

Sramana · Post by **Sramana** » 02 May 2006, 04:46

What are examples of some "secular" themes you'd like to see in CM?

Vishnampettai Jayendran · Post by **Vishnampettai Jayendran** » 02 May 2006, 05:21

corruption, female infanticide,aids awareness,gay rights, or even comedy and satire lighter subjects.. i mean anything other that god and bhakti which seems to be the main and only topic

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 02 May 2006, 05:48

How many popular rock music songs are there on such subjects?

Vishnampettai Jayendran · Post by **Vishnampettai Jayendran** » 02 May 2006, 06:20

A new prog metal song I am is writing is called 7 dollars a gallon. song about americans oil addiction, chandana dixit's new album has a song about the practice of female infanticide in India. Bands like Rage against the machine, System of the Down etc have written about politics a lot, Pink Floyd the wall ws famous for its anti establishment message..
I mean you can write about any subject you want.. freedom of speech..
I just enumarated a few subjects which would be relevant in the context of south india.

But I think you are missing the point here..
As a songwriter, shoudnt I have something other than god and bhakti to write about?
If not, then my friends were probably right. CM is after all just Hindu Brahminical religious music. And all the arguments about music doesnt know caste creed etc etc which i have seen in some of the posts here doesnt hold true I guess.

Vishnampettai Jayendran · Post by **Vishnampettai Jayendran** » 02 May 2006, 06:23

I went to itunes and looked at the top albums for the day,
the top album is We Shal Over Come, The seeger sessions by Bruce springsteen. bruce has written songs to support the katrina relief operations, songs with relevant lyricics symthathizing with people, criticizing the government etc. He is currently performing at the jazz festival in new orleans.

Now here is an example of music with a cause, and social relevence.

Why shouldnt carnatic music be like that?

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 02 May 2006, 06:27

As a songwriter, shoudnt I have something other than god and bhakti to write about?
If not, then my friends were probably right. CM is after all just Hindu Brahminical religious music. And all the arguments about music doesnt know caste creed etc etc which i have seen in some of the posts here doesnt hold true I guess.

If it does not hold good to you. Fine. Keep away mate.

Now here is an example of music with a cause, and social relevence.

Why shouldnt carnatic music be like that?

Why should it be like that? Coz you like it that way? Each kind of music is different. You do not have to force your pop values into CM. To me, all that po and rap where everyone screams thre head off about trivial and mundane things is meaningless. Do I ask them to switch to bhakti?

Vishnampettai Jayendran · Post by **Vishnampettai Jayendran** » 02 May 2006, 06:41

no i had asked whether CM is implicitly about god and hindu bhakti.
the intital answer given by various people was a no. hence the discussion continued.
if the answer would have been, Yes CM is about hindu deities and praising them, then that would have been the end of discussion.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 02 May 2006, 06:45

I asked that question because it seemed like you were deliberately trying to be provocative. I'd say only a small percentage of the most popular songs in popular english music (not metal) were on controversial topics like you mention. Sure there are a few exceptions.

Like it or not Carnatic music is entwined with the predominant Indian culture - namely Hinduism. Centuries ago Hindustani and Carnatic music are beleived to be one. HM changed due to Islamic and Persian influences while CM remained Hindu. CM was cultivated in temples and promoted by Hindu kings.

The influence of the Carnatic trinity (Thyagaraja, Dikshitar and Shyama Sastri) on Carnatic music has been immense. Concerts are dominated by krithis of this trinity and the topics of their compositions were based on religion.

It will take several more generations to change this tradition. If new compositions on secular themes are composed, it will need artistes to sing them and popularise them.

Sramana · Post by **Sramana** » 02 May 2006, 07:00

It's a little bizarre to imagine a krithi about female infanticide or gay rights. Even if CM isn't just about god/bhakti (I'll leave that open), it's definitely contemplative, abstract, lyrical music. Not really there to stir up crowds or promote a social agenda.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 02 May 2006, 07:02

Well CM is tacitly about devotion to that UNIVERSAL SOUL ultimately. And it also happens that hinuds have developed it and understandably the content is "hindu". But if you look deep, it is just the names that are Hindu and many attributes can be extended to any God. Many things that are considered "Hindu" are essentially "Indian". When rAma and kRShNa were around, there was no christianity or Islam. And they are very much part of Indian culture. One cannot blame them for being hindus, can one?

Now, there is a lot of love theme songs, songs about "Social themes" and plain secular ones as well songs singing praise of kings/Ministers etc in karNATaka sangIta. padas are very erotiic but are actually an allegory for the yearning of individual to unite with the universal soul/Godhead(Portrayed as the hero). jAvaLis are purely erotic songs and to have a place. But they are pickles and not the main course. You cant try and make pickles the main course.

haridAsas have sung innumerable songs about social themes and have reformed society in many ways. Many of these are couched in bhakti/devotion. See, inindian culture, surrendering everything to God is considered the final goal/fructification of all of ones efforts. It is seen not only in songs but in all our mantras and prayers. AND THAT IS INDIAN CULTURE.

Why should we change? Becaues the West believes in different values? Because some of our youth think it is "Hoarded" by Hindus and brahmins? Times have changed. No body is stopping anybody from learning CM. If the majority who learn and perform happen to be brahmins, that is not because they horad it. On the contrary, the credit goes to them for upholding a lofty tradition. I have peronally had several "Non-Brahmin" and Christian acquaintances say "Who wants to learn CM. Its not fashionable"(Note they had no issues with tthe "Hindu" content". Now if they dont want to learn, hey wont. Even if you sing about AIDS or gays or Jesus.

All that is mortal is ephemeral. A great song sung about a patron or Minsiter has value only so long as the person sung about is in power or alive. Sing of God- it is eternal. When you sing of someone or something, you sing for a purpose and not for your satisfaction/refinement. One cannot be lost in music then. devotion helps one to do that. SInging about Gay awareness may be great now, but what about 50 yrs later when awareness has been created? The song loses its value. It is just a museum piece. Not so if the content is devotional.

There are so many other genres of music to serve different causes. Why hijack one and force other values on it? Doing so is a sure way of taking away the vitality. Those who have interest will lose it. There will also be no new tkaers, Wgere does that leave our art? Religion has been the greates source of inspiration for al arts. Why should we divorce art from that very source which created, nourished and sustains it?

Vishnampettai Jayendran · Post by **Vishnampettai Jayendran** » 02 May 2006, 07:19

<There are so many other genres of music to serve different causes. Why hijack one and force other values on it? Doing so is a sure way of taking away the vitality. Those who have interest will lose it. There will also be no new tkaers, Wgere does that leave our art? Religion has been the greates source of inspiration for al arts. Why should we divorce art from that very source which created, nourished and sustains it?
>
^^^
so according to you what cause and puspose should CM serve

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 02 May 2006, 07:25

so according to you what cause and puspose should CM serve

Being at peace with oneself. Improving onself rather than trying to reform the world. To try and understand at least a little of that "Power above us".

It can be used to deliver messages, uphold certain values etc, but that will not be the mainstay of CM.

Sramana · Post by **Sramana** » 02 May 2006, 07:39

Let's get back to the original question:

"Is carnatic music implicitly hindu?
and also does it have to be only about bhakti?

Meaning can i for eg have a secular non religous carnatic composition, not praising god, but say about something more contemporary like environment or politics?
Have there been such compositions? "

Several points:

1. There are many 'secular' topics beyond contemporary social justice issues, including love and the poet's personal experiences. These appear throughout CM, mainly as lighter pieces. But, I think more importantly, 'secular' ideas like love and personal experiences appear throughout the main songs as well. They simply appear in the context of religious yearning and reflection, which doesn't make them any less genuine.

2. You could argue at several levels that CM is inextricably Hindu; the culture that invented and sustained its tradition for millennia was primarily 'Hindu' in its ideas and practices, and these influence every aspect of the product. Chinese music simply doesn't make any sense except as the product of a basically Confucian-Daoist culture. CM can't be decoupled from its own heritage--try to do so and I fear you'll generate superficial, forgettable music. Luckily, 'Hinduism' isn't monolithic, and doesn't have just one message. People in historical India, including CMusicians, no doubt had many different perspectives on the issues we talk about; you can bring diverse perspectives to the music and still respect 'tradition'.

3. Why did you ask this question in the first place? It seems like you're suggesting there should be kritis about gay rights, or that you, as a rock musician, would like to adopt some CM form to protest female infanticide. Why? I'm genuinely curious; I hope I don't sound confrontational here.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 02 May 2006, 07:47

I just remembered some songs of Purandaradasa. He has composed on many social themes. See http://www.dvaita.org/haridasa/dasas/pu ... dasa3.html for some examples (second half of this article)

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 02 May 2006, 08:22

Well said DRS
CM has enlightened me so much that I started to respect other music and culture becuase I love my music so much

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 02 May 2006, 11:31

Hi,
I have been following this discussion for a while now. This is what I feel. They represent just my views.
While compositions of Bharatiyar are never sung as the main item in a concert, they have been set to very chaste CM rAgas...many of us have had our intro to socialism listening to DKPs rendition of 'vAzha vAzhga bhArata samudAyam' - esp the lines: 'tani oruvanukku uNavillaiyenil jagattinai azhittiduvOm' (even the 'Das Kapital' does not preach this extreme brand of socialism!). We learned equality of the sexes through, once again DKP and others singing 'mAndar tammai izhivu seiyyum madamai koLuttuvOm'. I can go on, but I think I have made my point. Not religious, but definitely a kind of bhakti i.e. dEsa bhaktI/samUha bhakti. Vijaya Siva was once asked this very question you have posed, and his reply was that if the song was lyrically appropriate and not objectionable to him on certain grounds (I am sure he would have issues with songs like the one that won the Oscar about pimps), he was open to singing it. Recently in Kerala, there was a session of CM where Islamic songs were sung. So, to answer your question, some form is bhakti is an essential element of CM, because CM believes in rasa, not just esthetically pleasing music. To create rasa, IMO a certain form of bhakti is necessary..bhakti to what can be open ended. I have no idea how to exactly translate rasa, but I can give you an example: when Princess Diana died, Elton John sang 'candle in the wind'..the emotional experience it created was what I would call rasa. While I am very certain people's perceptions differ, I have really not been moved by renditions that describe female infanticide to date. I understand that it is my opinion and doesn't necessarily have to be yours. If you feel that you can create rasa in the listeners using lyrics that describe infanticide, then you should feel free to try your hand at it, while you offer us (meaning the rasikas) the freedom to either embrace it, or reject it - and accept the fact that the acceptance/rejection was based soleley on the ability of the lyrics and music to create rasa, and not a manifestation of the rasika's social consciousness.
Another point I have difficulty with understanding is the need to create fusion: what are we trying to achieve here? Show the CM rasika what they are missing? Or show the rasika of the opposite genre what CM can offer? I think both are presumptious suppositions. I personally do not belive in the socialist principle that everything should be for everyone. I find the advice we give parents very appropos here: i.e. give access to everything there is to everybody. People will choose what they want. So what if the majority do not choose CM, and prefer 'pop' music? So what 'CM rasika' falls at one of the tails of the bell shaped curve? It is just the way it is.
Ravi

Vishnampettai Jayendran · Post by **Vishnampettai Jayendran** » 02 May 2006, 11:41

rshankar, your answer is the most well balanced answer. I agree and accept every thing you say. And i think i also understand about your point on rasa.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 02 May 2006, 13:31

Ravi: Good points. As you indicated, bhakthi in generalized secular term can mean 'love for a social cause', I guess.

One thing I can think of is, such causes can find expression in a visual performance medium like an Opera, dance drama etc. and CM can be effectively used for the musical part of such production. Just a thought.

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 02 May 2006, 20:04

"While compositions of Bharatiyar are never sung as the main item in a concert,"

Wrong! A composition has been rendered as a main piece. I don't think this performance would have been the first one either. Therefore, rather than never, call it rare.

I think Bhakthi means more than just love for a social cause in such cases. I feel the word evokes a much more intense, much more fervent idea. Rather than love, an ardour...

On the whole, reading through the responses in the thread, there are lot of interesting issues raised.

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 02 May 2006, 20:46

Though I differred a little with DRS' reply to VJ's question "so according to you what cause and puspose should CM serve", I agree with his earlier messages.

VJ, Bharathiyar's compositions have tremendous potential in CM. Artists switch the genre to semi light classical generally to attract people outside of CM circles. Sanjay himself has been known to sing a pallavi "Paarukulle Nalla Naadu" in a full fledged RTP.

I myself expect a fair share of words and music. I certainly did not like some of the CM songs being played in films, with film music. Alai Payuthe is one example (long time ago it seems). Kanda Naal Mudhalaai was not so bad though.

So why do people cringe at the thought of CM being diluted that way? I guess the question is, why do people cringe when any form of classical music is diluted that way? (Worth pondering)

There will always be people who are traditional. CM is done in a particular way, just as Mathematics or any other subject. It's similar to a case I read about a while back. Some people found maths so amazing (i wonder how! lol) that they wanted to popularise it more (as if it wasn't already). Anyway, they used technology to transform "1+1=" into a window. Some found this affronting, while the rest either didn't know what was going on or found it a good joke. It won't be a part of "art", and still doesn't change the way a sum is done. 1 plus 1 will always equal 2. This is the most sensible, efficient and desirable 'way' of using what has been taught to us. I'm sure you can make parallels with CM, if not with many other aspects of life itself.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 03 May 2006, 02:31

These discussions of bhakti in CM led me to read some of my old books on the trinity, and the history of SI music vis-ÃƒÆ’Ã†â€™ -vis the geo-political climate when such music evolved, and this is what I have been able to discern. If there are any errors, they are mine from not having understood fully what has been published on this topic.
During the time of the Trinity (18th century of the CE), India, especially South India, was undergoing a period of intense turmoil. Under these influences (even called slavery by some chroniclers), indigenous SI art and literature took a beating, and cultural values were being challenged by invading Muslim (the nawAbs and the sultAns on the one hand) as well as Christian forces (represented by the East India Company on the other). However, very surprisingly, in the fields of spirituality and music, these influences were not very marked.
In the field of spirituality (synonymous with Hindu religious beliefs of the time), it was felt that time had come to move away from time consuming ritual-dominated practices, to ways of devotion that were easy for the ÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€¹Ã…â€œfast-paceÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚Â¢ of prevailing life! nAmasankIrtana was propagated as a way to achieve salvation. Setting these simple (san)kIrtanas to music appears to have occurred next. Coincidentally, the pace of life had made obsolete the prevailing musical mores of elaborating the rAga for days on end and effectively ending the days of prabhandam/thAya/AlAp (I have no clue about these, but instinctively feel that they would be boring!). Into this hiatus stepped musicians, who, influenced by the concomitant changes in the bhaktI movement, saw in the format of the kIrtanas, the ability to use a small ÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€¹Ã…â€œhandy piece to effectively capture and picturize a rAga, and mount it on a rhythmic platform, increasingly of the medium tempo ÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬" madhyamakAla, and setting it in an exalted poetic mediumÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚Â¢ (the quotation marks are paraphrased phrases from Prof Raghavan). The original kIrtanas were rudimentary in their musical contribution and predominance was accorded to the lyric. With the Trinity and a few before them, came the evolution of the kritI, which was more musical: the lyric was used to expound the rAga, which was given predominance over the words. The kIrtanas usually had a pallavI followed by charaNams. A kritI usually consisted of pallavI (P), anupallavI (AP) and charaNams (C). They were sung in the PAPC(A)P format. The Trinity also moved away from the usual pattern of setting one syllable for each word, and used melismatic meter allowing for freer flow of the rAga. Singing/composing sangatIs became accepted methods of using some phrases to unfurl the full magnificence/portent of the raga. There are many exceptions to this simplified summary, but I think it has helped me understand one of the possible ways how abstract music came to be irrevocably married to bhaktI in the form of CM, and matured into gAnayOga.
As I said in my earlier post, some of the lyric has changed in content to embrace other religious bhaktI as well, and broadened to include dEsabhakti, samUhabhakti etc. But some element of bhaktI is important to invoke and impart the essence (a very dilute translation of rasa) of CM. To me rAjAjI in his intro to the bhajagOvindam by Smt. MSS gives the BEST definition of bhaktI, and, as a corollary, of karmayOga.

I hope I have not bored people to distraction.
Ravi

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 03 May 2006, 02:54

Actuall The moving towards bhakti happened a few hundred years prior to the triniti(T,MD,SS). All the haridAsa did just that and the trinity faithfully followed the path laid by purandaradAsa and pther dAsas. The P-AP-C structure also had crystallised in the hands of the dAsas. It is incorrect to say all previous kIrtanes had rudimentary music and gave more importance to lyrics. It is only becaues we have lost the original msic for most of them that we tend to think so. Had that been the case, purandaradAsaru would not have been hailed todas as "karNATaka sangita pitAmaha". The purpose of the haridAsa movement was as Ravi has said, make it easy for people to pray to God without having to perform elaborate rituals. We must remember here that tuLajA mahArAja in his "sangIta sArAmRta" quoted mostly frok purandaradAsa`s suLAdis for delineating the rAgas.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 03 May 2006, 03:07

VJ

here are a few points to consider. The starting student in CM gets trained in
saraLi varisai
jaNTai varisai
thATTu varisai
sapta taaLa alankaaram
so far no language or words; only training on notes.
Now he trains on geetham which of course are on different gods. The songs are no means devotional or bhakti oriented; they are meant to fortify the svaraas as well as taaLa adherence. In fact most of these have been constructed by ancient experts in Telugu, Sanskrit and Kannada and there has been no need to reinvent the wheels.
Now he/she proceeds to svarajathi which again emphasizes the fluence of the notes and the adherence to shruti. The varNam follows which introduces the important concept of adhering to the kaalam (tempo) as well as svara sancaaram appropriate for the raga. This is where the student gets the rudiments of appreciating the raga. None of these are religion oriented since the words are not used in any prayer oriented sense! By this time the training of CM is finished.

Now a student has the capcity to listen, undertand and render kritis. The kritis of the Trinity are ideal since they foster raga, taaLa and svara sancaaram introducing the student to the crucial musical phrases appropriate for the raga. Many learn these kritis without knowing the meanings and it does not indusce any bhakti or hindu-consciousness among them. In a way CM is open to everybody without caste or creed upto this stage.

However the concerts are different since they make an emotional appeal to the audience. Since most of the audience are Hindus (mostly brahmins) the concert artistes use the bhakti pitch to appeal to them. It is not impossible to construct kritis on any other themes. In fact if there is a market for it the artistes would. Actually Tamil is a very late entry in the concert platform. Paapanasham Sivan singlehandedly tuned a number of songs patterned after the Trinity (since the raga phrases were primarily invented by them) and those songs became very popular. But still there is nothing yet in CM that will match with the versatility and expert handling of the ragas by the Trinity. We are eternally grateful to their musical talent. So there is nothing intrinsically Hindu or bhakti in CM except what has been created by usage. And we like it that way. I will not complain if one tries to apply CM to suit his choice as long as it is not objectionable. The reason for this long post is since you are a novice to CM. Feel free to contribute your talents to enrich CM which we can all enjoy!

Vishnampettai Jayendran · Post by **Vishnampettai Jayendran** » 03 May 2006, 04:12

Let's get back to the original question:

3. Why did you ask this question in the first place? It seems like you're suggesting there should be kritis about gay rights, or that you, as a rock musician, would like to adopt some CM form to protest female infanticide. Why? I'm genuinely curious; I hope I don't sound confrontational here.

Sorry, I had missed this post.

This is why I asked the question in the first place.

see my point as an observer is CM is irrelevent today people dont follow the words the song means have no cultural relevence its not (Pop)ular anymore (in fact i have seen people using pop as a bad word here)

when thyagaraja sang people crowded villages it was a culutural movement Carnatic was Pop music(bhakti music too)

but the point is , it was in tune with the times back then .

so I thought
why not compose new krithis in tamil with relevent topics, and I wanted to know are there any hard rules implicit to the genre itself which is stopping people from doing so..

I think CM lovers tend to be spiritual and intellectual people who read newspapers and are involved with local community and politics

So i feel there is a market if we write CM songs with relevent themes

the examples i have were just some themes which popped on my mind..
i had no intention to provoke (though it is interesting that some people did get provoked)
I mean the theme could be related to the tsunamis that struck south east asia

the responses I have seen here have ranged from fair and well balanced to hardcore right wing, which is expected, but I think upon reading the responses so far, one can conclude that there is nothing implicit in CM which sould tie it to hinduism and bhakti anymore, though it has its roots in them. But the inertia of history,culture and the expectations of the CM fan base is still keeping the genre in the hindu/bhakti fold. Which is a perfectly fine explanation i think.

thats all

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 03 May 2006, 04:24

---but I think upon reading the responses so far, one can conclude that there is nothing implicit in CM which sould tie it to hinduism and bhakti anymore, though it has its roots in them.

You had concluded this even before you asked the question :cheesy:

Vishnampettai Jayendran · Post by **Vishnampettai Jayendran** » 03 May 2006, 04:34

yes, that is correct, but that was my own personal theory, hunch.. i had the discussion with 3 firends here, and everyone else had a different opinion.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 03 May 2006, 07:25

VJ,
While what you say is inherently true, don't be surprised/disappointed if these songs don't gain popularity. Let me elaborate: we all listen to various forms of music for different experiences. For instance, I listen to CM when I am in the mood for lyrics pregnant with meaning, and music that is soul stirring. But when I am in the mood to have something keep me awake while driving, I prefer melody based film music - mainly hindi film songs. I also listen to Hilary Duff with my daughter, or Shania Twain/Dixie Chicks on the CMT on ocassion. I like the Carpenters too - my all time favorite number of theirs is 'I'm on top of the world' which maybe musically not very tough/complicated, but scores a 100% on the rasa aspect for me. However, when I am in the mood for CM, I would not find non-mainstream non-traditional lyrics satisfying to my soul. But then, that is my preference, and I would not change my opinion even if everyone else were to appreciate that sort of CM.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 03 May 2006, 07:39

see my point as an observer is CM is irrelevent today people dont follow the words the song means have no cultural relevence its not (Pop)ular anymore (in fact i have seen people using pop as a bad word here)

Pop being a bad word is not just here...there has always been that impression in some section of the audience... people who are into more serious form of music ( or non mainstream music ) will consider mainstream music 'pop crap', though what they dearly enjoy now was once pop. You can hear that in today's Jazz afficiano crowd and to some extent the Rock crowd. We all know when Rock was popular now it is a genre.

In the Indian scene, until the past few years, there was never really a separate Pop genre except film music. Not that there were no bands playing good music outside of film music but they are not pop. Now at least there seems to be music outside of films that people are tapping onto. Onto my personal opinion, the stuff like the Banned that you introduced to us is interesting and may blaze some new and interesting trail, most of Indian pop is just cheezy and duly deserve the label 'pop crap'. There may be other 'indie' bands there doing interesting stuff but the stuff I get to see in channels like B4U is just lame.

Sramana · Post by **Sramana** » 05 May 2006, 04:19

I just had a new thought on this. I'm not Indian, not Hindu, don't know any of the languages in CM, but still love the music. That ought to demonstrate by itself that there's more to CM than particular religious ideas. Ragam and talam by themselves are treasures, and together they make up one of the most complete and flexible formal systems in the world of music. I love CM for the musical patterns and for the aesthetic ideas it gives me--not for bhakti, which mindset I don't share.

But the fact remains that the formal language of CM is best suited to contemplative and exploratory music--in other words 'classical' music--and is of limited use in stirring up crowds etc. and 'getting things done'. Simpler music is better suited for that.

Agree/disagree?

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 05 May 2006, 05:58

A relevant article to this thread ... http://blogs.smh.com.au/entertainment/a ... 04510.html

Vishnampettai Jayendran · Post by **Vishnampettai Jayendran** » 05 May 2006, 13:51

I just had a new thought on this. I'm not Indian, not Hindu, don't know any of the languages in CM, but still love the music. That ought to demonstrate by itself that there's more to CM than particular religious ideas. Ragam and talam by themselves are treasures, and together they make up one of the most complete and flexible formal systems in the world of music. I love CM for the musical patterns and for the aesthetic ideas it gives me--not for bhakti, which mindset I don't share.

But the fact remains that the formal language of CM is best suited to contemplative and exploratory music--in other words 'classical' music--and is of limited use in stirring up crowds etc. and 'getting things done'. Simpler music is better suited for that.

Agree/disagree?

I disagree. Whats the point of having vocalists in CM then? lets just stick to instrumental.

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 05 May 2006, 15:58

"Whats the point of having vocalists in CM then?"

I see where you are coming from VJ. However, one fact remains; the human voice is inimitable.