Origin of the special terms Kaikasi and Kakali for Nishadam

[Sundar Krishnan]

Hi, 19th Feb, 2008

Could someone pl clarify the meaning of "Kaikasi" - I know it finally means "Komal N" = Ni.
I want to know the original Sanskrit meaning, the source, of why / how this name "kaikasi" came up.

Similarly, the meaning of "kakali" - the why / how of it was chosen to refer to "Teevra N" = Nu.

We know that the terms Komal and Teevra are used to distinguish the lower and upper notes. Thus, we have, for eg, as given in one article in http://www.raaga.net/ :

Shuddha (Komal) and Chathusruthi (Teevra) Rishabam,
Sadharana (komal) and Antara (Teevra) Gandharam,
Shuddha (Komal) and Prati (Teevra) Madhyamam,
Shuddha (Komal) and Chatussruthi (Teevra) Dhivatham and
Kaisiki (Komal) and Kakali (Teevra) Nishadham.

So, my question is : Why choose these special words : Kaikasi and Kakali only for Nishadam N ?

*********************

So also, how was "Prati" (for Madhyamam) chosen ? What is the original Sanskrit meaning of "Prati" ? How do we infer this (ie, to apply to Madhyamam) from the original Sanskrit meaning of "Prati" ?

Thanks in advance (TIA in short, in future)

Sundar Krishnan

[arunk]

I dont know the meaning, exact source etc. (i can check later), but kakali on the nishadam goes back very early - all the way to Bharata's Natyasastra. Kaisiki came later (not sure when).

As a shade of nishadam (not necessarily exactly as how they are applied today), both kakali and kaisiki preceded komal and tivra which came later - I think around 14th-15th century (not sure of the exact time period).

Arun

[nigamaa]

Hi,

to my research opinion
You need to put a question first like
What is meant by niSHadJA?
When did we first know about it?
Then you may go into details, why this names for the variations
And when did they appear first?
Now as a lay-man/woman you may assume, that first knowledge of these
Written words in sanscrit was in Bharata Natya Shastra, music chapters.
before that it should have been known in Indus Valley Civilizations language,
before that it should have been in sumerian civilization ( present day Iraq/Persia )
see
A Brief History Of SumeroTamil
http://www.siddha.com.my/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000060.html
note that Dr. Logan was banned from university for his views
he claimed somewhere that some tamil tribal people still speak sumerian language of 5000 years ago

anyhow first mention of Ni in sumerian language was in Ni Pur, first temple city then.
Meaning was: first, one, center, middle – so niSHadJA was the first note. Since 7 notes were to be chosen in a system of 22 notes, each of the 7 notes received some variant notes, so these names were given according to some yet to agreed upon parameters. There were naturally many different names given to these variants, it’s a matter of research how they were called at a certain time of history and why.

[arunk]

nigamaa,

Some points
1. There is no indisputable proof (yet) that Indus Valley civilization used an Indo-Aryan Language nor Dravidian. Its language is still a mystery.
2. Although I am not familiar with the details here, the connection to Sumer was from Tamil and as a Dravidian linguistic connection. This may be to establish an ancient connection for Tamil which was non-sanskrit, non-IndoAryan. This s has been generally considered as to be too over-zealous in most if not all circles. Even if you believe in it ardently, at this point it is a fringe view to be of much use here.
3. Even otherwise, Ancient Tamil as far as I know does NOT have a "sha" sound which is there in nishada. It was definitely an import later from Sanskrit.
4. Even so if some there is a tamil-sumer connection, how come tamil music not use sa-ri-ga-ma but use kural etc.?
5.(Not 100% sure on this - need to check) Although some have theorized that in the ancient grama music, ni may have been the reference tone, IIRC botjh Bharata and Dattila explain shadja as the first note.

IMO, we should avoid this huge tangent.

Arun

[nigamaa]

Dear Arunk,

I meant to say, as I wrote above
You need to put a question first like such
To get an answer like that
Without sources one cannot understand correctly.

Apart from this I have evidence supporting my views,
Without which you cannot comprehend them
If you leave your email adress I will post you some sources
So that you can judge for yourself better.

I do not follow the teachings of Dr. Loga, disagree with some of them,
perhaps find many plausible – please do not understand me that I copy anyone in any way.But just like Dubai today, has many indian population, there are arabs and whites as well. Why couldn`t it have been like this 5000 years ago?

[ramakriya]

As an aside,I would like to point out that the kAkali nishAda (and antara gAndhAra) was considered to have a different shruti position (than what is practiced today) - Sometime in the 16th centuries, the term kAkali nishAda was applied to chyuta shaDja nishAda.

Swaramela kalanidhi (1650 AD) , describes mELas that are differentiated by only by the use of kAkali and chyuta shaDja nishAda (all other swara shthAnas being equal). And I belive that was the case till this text, which for the first time considers the possibility ofmerging of these two notes.

-Ramakriya

[Sundar Krishnan]

Hello,

First a correction in my original msg posted 19/2/08, 19.54 PM :
It is "kaisiki", and not kaikasi. Sorry for the error .

[
As an aside, "kaikasi" is the mother of Ravana ! - refer http://members.rediff.com/saivani/Ravana.htm
]

*********************

Now, thanks for the response, but my original intention in starting this discussion thread was mainly to know the Sanskrit meanings of "kaisiki", "kakali" and "prati", and thus, try to guess how / why "kaisiki" and "kakali" are terms applicable only to Nishadam.

I don't know if we need to go so far as to bring in Tamil, Sumer etc here ; let us, as a first step, get the pure Sanskrit meanings ; that may probably lead us the way to the origin of the application of these 2 terms specially to Nishadam.
Yes, we know the laymam, or rather implied, derived (?) meaning of these terms as "komal" and "teevra". But what are the original Sanskrit meanings ? May be, we need a Sanskrit scholar to throw light on this ?

*********************

Just like "Shad-ja" means "giving birth to next 6 notes", nigamma has raised the query about "niSHadJA" - the start of the next 7 notes.

nigamma says :

Since 7 notes were to be chosen in a system of 22 notes, ...

I would like to know which 22 notes are being referred to here.

*********************

ramakriya says :

the term kAkali nishAda was applied to chyuta shaDja nishAda.

I would like to understand the meaning of yet another new term / jargon : "chyuta", and from that, infer the meaning of "chyuta shaDja nishAda".

*********************

So, in all, I would like to know the pure Sanskrit meanings of kaisiki, kakali, prati and chyuta.

Thanks

Sundar Krishnan

[nigamaa]

Sundar Krishnan writes
nigamma says :
Since 7 notes were to be chosen in a system of 22 notes, ...

I would like to know which 22 notes are being referred to here.

nigamaa writes:
to understand any of these topics without going back to the roots
is beyond my comprehension, sorry
To get to know more about sanscritic relations you can dive deep into the archives
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akandabaratam/

in order to understand it s relation to greek language and terms
is important, if BNS was composed after Panini, from 400 BC onwards, the terms contained may have come from that time and are related to greek terms
see also
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=4560

BNS music section relates to 22 musical intervals (shrutis), seven of these are chosen to be played, sometimes 5, 6 or more played ascending or descending.

on
http://www.omenad.net/page.php
Late Dr. Lalmani Misra has reconstructed his version of the 22 shruti vina, there is a mp3 rendering on the site too. He has received awards and money from UNESCO for this. I found out that his reconstruction is according to harmonic laws correct but not according to the sanscitic text of Saranga Deva, believed to rely on Bharata. To understand the 22 shruties one needs to go back to roots and experiment until one finds the true values with which to play the tunes that are recorded in BNS, it s that simple- or complex, whichever way you may view it?

sorry of not being able to give a different answer

[vasanthakokilam]

nigamaa:

Though your venue of going back to some 'roots' has some merit and it is worth a discussion, I think thee sanskrit knowledgeable members in our forum may be able to answer this question of the Original Poster in a more straight forward fashion.

So, in all, I would like to know the pure Sanskrit meanings of kaisiki, kakali, prati and chyuta.

We can then go back or forward in time to flesh out the context of how these words ( with the standard sanskrit meaning ) came to be associated with musical notes.

[ramakriya]

So, in all, I would like to know the pure Sanskrit meanings of kaisiki, kakali, prati and chyuta.

Thanks

Sundar Krishnan

I can help partly on these terms.

chyuta - means fallen ; So Chyuta shaDaja is a shadja that has fallen from it's place, and thus occupying a position taken by nishAda normally.

This does not have to be only with shaDja. There are terms chyuta shaDja , chyuta panchama and chyuta madhyama.

One of the meanings of prati is opposite, or the other; So prati madhyama actually means the other madhyama.

-Ramakriya

[Sundar Krishnan]

First, thanks to Vasanthakokoilam to stress to the readers what I have all along been requesting for :

21/2/08, 17.53 : let us, as a first step, get the pure Sanskrit meanings ; that may probably lead us the way to the origin of the application of these 2 terms specially to Nishadam. ...

*************************

nigamma's replies and discussions are probably at a "higher plane", and some of it goes off "tangentially" - for me atleast.
Now, in the msg dt 21/2/08, 19.08, he has talked of "BNS Music Section" with 22 shruti intervals etc.
Using a Base Note as the Starting Frequency of the scale (what we refer to as C for eg), can we not have all the so called 22 shrutis listed out with their absolute frequencies ? - juxtaposed against the basic 7 and the extended 12 swaras, or the further extended 16 swaras ?
Such an example list of absolute frequencies' scale would talk better than volumes of words. Obvioulsy, as we change the Base Starting Frequency, all the 22 notes would also change.

What is "BNS Music", and "BNS Music Section" ?
Pl let me know the full form of "BNS".

*************************

Thanks to ramakriya for giving the meanings of chyuta = fallen and prati = opposite. Simple and straightforward to start with. After these basic simple meanings, one can further "explore" for more research etc.

ramapriya, you have given some expamples of "fallen from it's place" as :

chyuta shaDja , chyuta panchama and chyuta madhyama

But, what does "chyuta shaDja nishAda" mean ?

And, from that, can you pl explain yr stmt :
"the term kAkali (= Teevra) nishAda was applied to chyuta shaDja nishAda."

TIA

Sundar Krishnan

[nigamaa]

Notice of leave:
for today I will be out of office, not being able to receive TV, Inet, email
However a question disturbes my mind, what do Rasikas think could haave been the Rasa when Enki dances with His consort Nin Sikilla, the Dance of Bliss, see below for whole story

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akandabar ... sage/31657

Namazvar’s Tiruvaymozi 2-6-8

Evolving Towards Supreme Bliss and the Garuda

It is the essence of all living creatures that they seek out happiness and avoid pains. Even in the religious life this has been the case. Men right from very ancient times worshipped the gods to be happy and avoid miseries and disasters that bring about sufferings. The hope for an end state of endless joys was understood as being the Paradise as was the case even among the SumeroTamils even in the Third Millennium BC and even earlier. Tilmun, the Paradise was understood as a place when Enki dances with His consort Nin Sikilla, the Dance of Bliss and where there are no diseases violence miseries unhappiness and so forth.

Now in this profound verse where the theme is quite common to the whole of Sacred Tamil literature, it is elaborated with the EVOLUTION of the souls where they are seen to be thrown into countless number of biological births and deaths but where there is evolution into higher forms and where as human beings they finally attain being present ast the FEET of BEING and which is in fact the very ancient Paradise.

Now unlike the Darwinian notion of evolution through adaptation to the environment, here we have a Theory of Evolution due to Divine Action.. There is an inward pull of BEING which makes all souls aspire to ascend and enter the Paradise by freeing themselves of the Malam and other dirt that come along and which makes the soul ignorant and evil. These are the various impedances towards the evolutionary ascendance of the souls and which are seen as the Asuras here and in the language of myths.

Now in the same language of myths it is seen that BEING as Tirumaal mounts on the Gatuda and battling fiercely singes to ashes these evil Asuras so that the souls are freed of the various polluting agents/

But why Garuda here?

Garuda is the foe of the SANKE, the kuNdaloni sakti that exists as sexual libido and ties the souls to physical embodiments and hence to Samsara, endless births and deaths. As long as the sexual libido remains untransformed into selfless love unto all, existential repetitions will continue. Tirumaal wages a battle mounted on Garuda on the various expressions of the sexual libido so that the souls are made to EVOLBE and become pure and wholly LOVE just like BEING Himself and which earns for the soul birthless and deathless existence in the Paradise and at the feet of BEING Himself

Since such an evolutionary journey cannot be sustained without the fgace of BEING, Namazvar loathes to dislodge BEING from his own soul. He pleads against the possible departure.


8.

maaEi maaRi pala piRappum piRantu adiyai adaintu
uLLat teeRi
iiRu ilaa inbattu iruceLLam yaan muuzkinan
paaRip paaRi asurar tam pala kuzaaGkaL NiiRu eza
paay paRavai inRu
eeRi viiRRiruntaay ennai ennuL niikkeel entaay

Meaning:

My Lord! In the long evolutionary journey I have assumed countless number births where the later is different from the former and thus many different kinds of births. Finally have evolv4ed and with evolutionary development have attained Your Feet where I also have drowned myself in the great flood waters of endless bliss! Thus has been made possible only because You mounted on the fierce Garuda and have attacked the various Asura clans and singed them to ashes so that there were no impediments on the way. On my Lord! Be kind to me and do n ot dislodge Yourself from my soul so that I can continue to enjoy this supreme bliss!

[arunk]

As an aside,I would like to point out that the kAkali nishAda (and antara gAndhAra) was considered to have a different shruti position (than what is practiced today) - Sometime in the 16th centuries, the term kAkali nishAda was applied to chyuta shaDja nishAda.

Swaramela kalanidhi (1650 AD) , describes mELas that are differentiated by only by the use of kAkali and chyuta shaDja nishAda (all other swara shthAnas being equal). And I belive that was the case till this text, which for the first time considers the possibility ofmerging of these two notes.

-Ramakriya

I first want to correct that "kakali" used for nishada predates cyuta shadja nishada by atleast a millenium. As a result I have to bore all of you with details

Kakali by Bharata and Dattila:

ref: Dattilam by Mukund Lath

BOTH Bharata and Dattila use kakali as a term that applies nishada. Both define 22 sruthis and 7 swaras. But in addition to the 7 swaras they document two alternates - kakali shade for nishada and antara shade for gandara. They are clear that these "dont warrant" a "swara status" and hence are considered variations of the already existing swaras (i.e. nishada and gandara).

So if you consider the variations (to see how they map to today although one must be very careful as sadja in those days was not always the tonic), you have 9 (7+2) in Bharata and Dattila - the variant 2 being called just kakali and antara but associated to nishada and gandara. The names of the standard 7 swaras were simply: sadja, rishaba, gandara, madyama, panchama, dhaivata, nishada.

Bharata on kAkali
(From Dattilam by Mukund Lath) kAkali has been defined by Bharata as "kalavAca kAkilsaMjnAh" which Abhinava explains as "a note slightly raised in pitch : IshatkalastIvrabhAvo'smin". ..... Discussing the nature of kAkali nishada, Bharata says "vikR.tatvAca nAyamaMSahAptopadESAcca" : it cannot become an amsa for it is an altered note and has not a separate status apart from the seven notes; it has been described by the authorities as nothing but nishAda.

(note: i dont know sanskrit and so my transliteration is probably off, the book uses a different scheme - i am confused between sa, Sa, and Sha in that scheme).

Dattila on kAkali
(From Dattilam by Mukund Lath) : nishAda elevated by two sruthis, becomes the (nishAda) called kAkali, and gAndhAra likewise [elevated], is called antara-svara (or antara-gandara). Since these two cannot become amsas (anamSatvat), they are not designated as separate swaras. This is the reason why they have been described as gandhAra and niShAda by the authorities.

My comment: So I do not know if the word kAkali itself implies "raised" - or its just a label (i.e. a name) applied to a raised nishAda

Sarngadeva:

ref: Translation of Ramamatya's work swaramelakalanidhi by MS. Ramaswamy Ayyar (i have Sarngadeva's book at home, I can check later)

Now Sarngadeva (12-13th century) expanded to 12 variants - with the following names in addition to the standard 7:
1. achyuta sadja
2. vikrita rishaba
3. sadharana gandara
4. antara gandara
5. chyuta madyama
6. achyuta madyama
7. vikrita panchama
8. Another vikrita panchama - also called as kaisiki panchama
9. vikrita dhaivata
10. kaisiki nishada
11. kakali nishada
12. chyuta sadja

Note that per Sarngadeva kakali nishada is different from cyuta sadja, and the latter is a shade of sadja and not nishada.

cyuta as mentioned by ramakriya means "fallen" i.e. lowered - basically in those days a swara comprised of certain # of sruthis - so in a sense the entire span of those sruthis is "part of the swara". Hence you have speak like "when sadja gives up one of its sruthis to the nishada". That is what happens here for cyuta sadja - that sadja has given one of its sruthi to nishada which gains one as a result. Normally nishada has 2 and sadja 4. With this nishada has 3 and sadja 3, and such a sadja is cyuta sadja.

Ramamatya

ref: Introduction to translation of Ramamatya's work swaramelakalanidhi by MS. Ramaswamy Ayyar

Later in 16th century Ramamatya, reduced this # of variants to 7. Note that between this time, the grama system had disappeared and there seems to be hole. There is also some evidence that we went to sadja as tonic through out. Perhaps this is one reason why Ramamatya's analysis has some some inconsistencies when he still tries to map them to 22 sruthis - IMO they were off on what was suddha rishaba).

Anyway, he basically says achyuta sadja is same as sadja, vikrita rishaba is same as rishaba, achyuta madyama is the same as madyama, vikrita dhaivata is same as dhaivata, he says vikrata panchama which is taken from madyama sruthi is same as the other vikrita panchama (and so there is only one variant which is called achyuta panchama). Thus 1, 2, 5, 8 and 9 above are eliminated as they were considered same. The remaining 7 were named by Ramamatya as (not in this order):


sadharana gandhara
antara gandhara
chyuta madyama
chyuta panchama
kasiki nishada
kakali nishada
chyuta sadja

Note again that kakali here is different from chyuta sadja It is "lower" in pitch (by one sruth). Also when listing the 7 vikrita swaras Ramamatya does not identify cyuta sadja with nishada.

However, later he says "On account of its identity with Nishada, Chyuta Sadja is also called Chyuta Sadja Nishada". He applies same rules to change chyuta madyama to chyuta madyama gandhara, and chyuta panchama to chyuta panchama madyama and thus renaming the nomeclature to

sadharana gandhara
antara gandhara
chyuta madyama gandara
chyuta panchama madyama
kasiki nishada
kakali nishada
chyuta sadja nishada

Note again here cyuta sadja nishada is different from kakali nishada - by 1 sruthi. It is only during the instructions for vina construction that he says "Some practical musicians consider chyuthamadhyama Ga and chyutha Sadja Ni as the representatives respectively of Antara Ga and Kakali Ni, on account of the very small difference in sound in them". He then quotes Sarngadeva (remember that was grama system based book) for corroboration as "Thus has Sarngadeva expressed himself agreeably that Kakali Ni and Antara Ga are of occasional use".

It should be noted that this sparing use for Kakali Ni and Antara goes back all the way to Bharata and Dattila. They were sparing in comparison to the suddha (i.e. standard) swaras . I dont think Sarngadeva implied that cyuta sadja was more common than kakali. In any case, it seems that by Ramamatya's time, the music used one higher "ni" - which was just deemed cyuta sadja nishada by him, and also any difference between kakali and cyuta sadja ni were "too subtle" to tune on the vina or reproduce accurately in practice.

In any case, the interesting thing is irrespective of the names, assignment of sruths etc. as a result we have exactly 12 swaras - the ones we use today


Arun

PS: Apologies for any mistakes and misinterpretation

[ramakriya]

Arun,

Thanks for the detailed post.

Do you have the translation of SMK? Is it available at the KMBC?

-Ramakriya

[arunk]

no ramakriya - This one has been out of print for a long time. I got mine photocopied from U of C library. The original was literally falling apart

Arun

[vasanthakokilam]

Arun, apologies that I did not have time to pay 100% attention to your long post, but is the point that the words 'kaisiki' and 'kakali' do not have derivable meaning in Sanskrit ( even in non musical contexts )? ( if your come back is 'read my darn post again', that is a perfectly acceptable answer )

[arunk]

I am not well versed in Sanskrit to claim one way or another (but do 'read my darn post again' anyway )

If we go by lexicon (http://webapps.uni-koeln.de/tamil/_

For kaiSiki (kaiziki): we have "hair-like , fine as a hair" in musical context. IIRC this is indeed based on explanations from early music text (i.e. hair like difference compared to standard nishada i think). But then one can ask like the original post - why only to nishada? I guess the answer is - it is just the way it is.

For kAkali, I cannot find anything except all kAka based words (including kAkala) have something to do with crow/raven.

Arun

[vasanthakokilam]

Thanks Arun.

I guess it is now upto the sanskrit pundits to pitch in if there are ways to arrive at the Paninian derivation for these words and through it the meaning, if any ( CML, SR, Ramakriya ? )

[nigamaa]

SK questions:
What is "BNS Music", and "BNS Music Section" ?
Pl let me know the full form of "BNS".

In literature shortcuts are used very often, it is not to confuse, so i used
BNS>Bharata Natya Shastra
BNS Music>Music as described in Bharata Natya Shastra
BNS Music Section> only one or few more of the whole 35 or 36 chapters of BNS deal with music theory. Since BNS mainly relates on theatre music is very abbreviated dealt with, so that in later times more expansive works were written, claiming their conformity to BNS

Lexical meaning of Natyam:
120. Sumerian. ne-di : to dance as in 'ki-e-ne-de' : (a place of ) dancing; Akkadian: mElaulyu
Tamil: nadi, nada: to walk, go pass, to act; Kannada: nade: to walk, march, proceed etc : Also Tamil. nadam: dancing; nadi: to dance , act on stage (W. 645), Sanskrit of Sangita Ratnakara: nada > na ( pra na, lifebreath, throath, voice,…): da: (fire, navel) hence nada>sound

rgds

[arasi]

kAkali in tamizh means 'maduramAna vArtai (sweet word) according to my tamizh dictionary.
kAkali nishAdam itself is given this meaning--amalaidAram!

The nearest meaning of amalai in this context is 'extra'. Can you make anything out of it?

[nigamaa]

BNS>ctnd

N>Natyam was explained
S>Shastra engl. Scripture
B>Barata Sumerian: Bar, Pharao,Father,Priest; ata fire
> Fire worship Priest
B>Barata Wishnu Purana: 10. king in Yadu Bloodline following 1 st king Puru ra vas > Asa of Ni puru?, who was married with Urv asi. their son Ayu, later deified city god of sumerian temple university city Eridu called
Enki, dances with His consort Nin Sikilla, the Dance of Bliss. (see above post). sumerian Pururavas, Urvasi, Ayu,Sikilla all connect to natyam. King Barata was first to expand sumerian rule of mesopotamian 2 River Valley to Indus Valley.
B>Baratamuni, mythological autor or autors of BNS, date unknown
presumably around time or before Alexander, the Great or Ashoka

rgds

[arunk]

arasi - kAkali itself cannot be a native tamizh word as it deviates from natural tamizh pronounciation (i.e. must be kAgali or kAkkali). Although I cannot be sure, if Bharata/Dattilam dont give a definition, and silappatikaram does not even use the same nomenclature as the sanskrit based works, any definition that appears later may be a later reinterpretation (unless of course we have evidence of this meaning also in non-Tamil works).

[vasanthakokilam]

How come our Sanskrit scholars are silent on this one? I thought they will jump on this, find the root and put the word back using Panini Suthras..

[ramakriya]

How come our Sanskrit scholars are silent on this one? I thought they will jump on this, find the root and put the word back using Panini Suthras..

Jokes apart

Monier Williams Samskrita dictionary also gives the following meaning:

kAkali : a soft and sweet sound, a low and sweet tone

[arasi]

Arun,
Point taken. I didn't think kAkali was a tamizh word though. My, the more we try to understand, the more difficult it gets!

[nigamaa]

I beg sorry i am in a rush being late to my office, but this just hit my newsdesk and would fit into the thread here stressing importance of correct intonation oif syllables ( notation, frequencies, beats, etc)
quote
When a person utters these five syllables of a row
correctly with the right musical pitches it will be a good consonant
musical exercise with spiritual context.
end of quote

full text
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akandabar ... sage/32447
veerapandian wrote:

The Musical Dimension of Shiva - A New Discovery

Dr.S.A.Veerapandian Ph.D (Physics of Music),
Former Reader in Physics,
Presidency College,
Chennai, India,
E-Mail: pannpandi@...


Abstract:

The musical inscriptions of ancient Indian music were found at
arachchalUr, kudumiyAmalai, malayakkOvil, thirumayam and mAmandUr in
Tamil Nadu, South India. An inscription dated to the 12th century in a
Shiva temple at kampainhallUr of tharumapuri District, Tamilnadu,
India was reported in 1975 by the State Archeology Dept of Tamil Nadu.
The inscription had five different horizontal rows containing the five
syllables nha ma chi vA ya, the mantra associated with God Shiva. The
special significance of this inscription remained a mystery.

Research undertaken by Dr.S.A.Veerapandian in association with the
Epigraphist Dr.A.Padmavathy established that the five rows of letters
in the above inscription were related to the five musical notes of
'mullaith thEmpANi' (the scale of Mohana Ragam) employed in AychchiyAr
kuravai, a kind of folk dance in ancient Tamil literature
cilappathikAram.

This discovery proved to be a gateway to the treasure of the
music dimension of nha-ma-chi-vA-ya on further research undertaken
by Dr.S.A.Veerapandian. AnAyanhAyanAr purANam, ancient Tamil Shaivite
literature clarified that the five Tamil letters nha ma chi vA ya
could be equated with five musical notes which undergo five branching
relations mentioned in the ancient Tamil literatures cilappathikAram
and kallAtam. When a person utters these five syllables of a row
correctly with the right musical pitches it will be a good consonant
musical exercise with spiritual context. Anyone who tries to sing the
five rows with the right musical pitches will gain practical insight
into consonant relations in music. With this discovery the Shiva
temple at kampainhallUr join in the list of the musical inscriptions
establishing the divine aspects of the consonant relations in music.

[vidya]

To answer the original query (as per my understanding).

kAkali is used to refer to a nishAdha that sounds as sweet (and indistinct) like the lisp of Children.

As per Abhinava BharatI, the commentary of Abhinavagupta 'kalatvAccha kAkali saMjNa' due to kala or sweetness.
Interestingly enough the commentator says that though the gAndhAra and the nishAda went up in shruti
gAndhAra was called antara and kAkali was used for nishAda only due to usage (ie commonly known)
To explain a little further Natya Sastra gives the Svaras of Shadja grama and madhyama grama. Some experiments with veenas (in whatever form they existed then) and fixing of notes were done.His finding was that when the interval between notes are lowered or raised their nature varies.
So the interval between notes became the determiner of their quality. At that time the shadja grama and the madhyama grama were known, jAtis, their amshas(precursors to ragas) were there with lots of varieties. There were seven notes and it is said that the 2-sruti interval between G and M and P and N and S yielded 2 more notes.

These were called antara G and Kakali N grouped together as antara svaras. Antara referring to inbetween or intermediary.
Thus antara(the first inbetween note he perhaps chose to name it antara by default) and kAkali was used for nishAda.
Incidentally these were also called sAdhArana svaras. A note was qualified as sAdhAraNa because they do not give up their original nature
or acquire the nature of the next higher note.

2.The kaishiki is that nishAda that had undergone the change of an extent of a hair's breadth or a kEshAgra vasana.
The commentator himself explains the term at length saying the usage of kaishikam is difficult to explain.
ka kEshOrvA kaishika etc. ie subtlety of rendering kaishikam as fine as hair.

3.Why does it apply only to nishAda?
Purely historical and arbitrary (as per 1) and how Bharata and the Veena experimenters of the time looked at ascending notes, swaras, intervals.

3.1 Do these terms mean anything at all in today's context?
Not really since many of the relative postions, the original contexts have changed over centuries.
So the terms do not mean much melodically today.The srutis as mentioned by Bharatha and his derivations and terms used is relevant today in
a purely historical context and to understand the evolution of these terms.

Ref :
- NS various translations of ch 28,ch.29
- Smt. Hema Ramanathan's excellent translation with notes of the AbhinavabharathI,commentary on the Natyashastra of Abhinavagupta(musicresearch.in)
- Pers. Comm with Prof.S.R.Janakiraman

Aside : I have always found this choice of word kAkali to be very arbitrary and wondered (more as a conspiracy theory)
if the Tamizh note kaikkiLai had something atleast etymologically if not musically to do with it. I say etymologically because the kaikkiLai
[the musical note not the term as used in Sangam literature ] of Tamils was a gAndhAra. But it was precisely around that time frame that we see two musical systems merging in the South(the indigenous and the imported) and the influence of Natyasastra in the texts of the Cilappatikaram.

[nigamaa]

To comment the answer by Vidya to the original query (as per my understanding) in some points
quote in ()

(To explain a little further Natya Sastra gives the Shruti intervals of Shadja grama and madhyama grama.)
comm. Natya Sastra gives the Svara intervals of Shadja grama and madhyama grama and gandhara grama. The shruti intervals are permanently fixed.

(Some experiments with veenas and fixing of notes were done)
comm. I read about earliest text that fixing was explained on harps,
unsure if veenas were in practise then?

( Does it mean anything at all in today's context? No. Not really since many of the relative postions, the original contexts have changed over centuries. And do not melodically apply today.The srutis as mentioned by Bharatha and his derivations and terms used is relevant today in a purely historical context and to understand the evolution of these terms.)

comm. Shruties were fixed on the harps or veenas as described in scripture. Even Dr. Lalmani Misra Dean & Head, Facutly of Music and Fine Arts, Banaras Hindu University, Varanasi reconstructed these musical elements.
Ref. “Shruti Veenaâ€

[vidya]

nigamma,
Svara intervals > Yes.
The word Veena is used. Obviously it was some kind of unfretted instrument and not today's veena.
I am not sure I understand your last point. I said the evolution and choice of these terms are historical and have to be understood in the
context of the times that they were mentioned.

[nigamaa]

Vidya,
The issue was different though.
Pandit Bhakthande, the great music reformator of indian music was a Bombay lawyer who wished to reestablish music according to Bharata Natya Shastra and tried for a very long time to do so, I read. He met with greatest resistance from the music gurus of north and south., who guarded their music reportoire, since only they had their own intonation and the birth-rigth to teach them. Some shared it with him., some would not. From this experience, I believe he was disappointed to agree to a new music theories on ragas, without ever stating the old systems should be abandoned. BNS did not have this secretive aproach, but maybe tried to hide the tuning from infidels? Future research will reestablish the old system and perhaps show its superiority, this may also affect dance style? We may be very happy to get some knowledge from the sumero-tamil side, since in the old text there is mention of teaching the me of music. Maybe this was translated already, I am not sure?

[rshankar]

Vidya,

Since you are discussing the swaras, here is something I came across in my cyber-wanderings...wonder what you make of it:

http://www.biostatistics.net.au/carnatic.htm

Ravi

[arunk]

[quote="nigamaa"]Ref. “Shruti Veenaâ€

[nigamaa]

arun,

it might take me a few days to answer, its not an easy matter
but to my understanding one had to be initiated into the shruties,
it was not simple maths.

[arunk]

one had to be initiated into the shruties,
it was not simple maths.

Initiated into sruthis? What does that mean? In today's terms? And still be able apply it back to how it was 2000 years ago? Based on text that mandate additional interpretation due to their conciseness?

I am sorry but at the risk of sounding disrespectful, that would be smoke and mirrors !

The texts are available for all to see. Like I mention above, the older ones are quite concise in information (i.e. as sutras), and so one always is forced to interpret (which is why you have varied interpretations in the first place).

It is when people start defaulting all of their own personal interpretations to laws, and at the end of their research, no longer can distinguish the initial assumptions/presumptions (those that remain so) from actual evidence or ones that get scientifically corroborated, do things start to get dangerous and out of hand.

But that is just my personal interpretation!

PS: Sorry if that was rude. Reading back now - I do realize it sounds so. It was not aimed at you in particular. I am just skeptical that someone needs some acquired X factor to figure these things out. While it is certainly possible my interpretation was way off base, Besides, in that write-up I wasnt revealing anything fundamentally new - all I did was to provide an explanation (with math to back it up where applicable) as to why many claim that the swara-spacing of the sadja-grama was "close to today's kharaharapriya" . I found this to me missing in many of the books I read (back then)

Arun

[nigamaa]

Arun et all,

I am very sorry giving you an impression to write so long comments.
Due to many factors ( time, work, duty, money,...) I cannot rush this thread in the speed you might desire. I have to take time.

I mean innitiate, X factor – not what you mean. But at the time of composing that scripture I cannot imagine that this was taught openly, rather to an elite. So innitiate did not mean today.

Lets see what another says here upon translating a music treatise from 2000 BC:
Quote:
In these lines and above we see Sulgi linking music with invigorating the spirits and hence making one not only energetic but also brave and courageous with the will to fight back injustice, foreign subjugation and general decay. Thus music is also linked with KuNdalini Yoga, the science of activating the Coiled Power within and perhaps for which reason certain musical rituals (Indi, were isolated) and appropriated as only for the kings. When the King is endowed with immense KuNdalini, it was believed that not only the King will be vigorous but also the brave Nir-gal, the one who would NOT deviate from the path of justice.
End of Quote

You and me have some background to the topic, many others don t.To me this discussion will touch maybe 30% on music and 70% on dance. So assistance from the dancer will be required, knowing well that they do not have the many scriptures the music scholars have. So I have to find an easy introduction for them.

Pls read what veerapandian wrote recently about late M.S.Subbulakshmi:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akandabar ... nt=-30&l=1
Re: Tamil Music in Sumeria

Each syllable of nha-ma-chi-vA-ya was related to a musical note of Mohana Ragam. The five music notes Sa, Ri, Ga, Pa,Tha (Western notes C,D,E,G,A) represent five branching consonant relations with evidences from chilappathikAram, kallAdam and AnAyanhAyanAr purANam. The last reference clearly explained that the five letters nha-ma-chi-vA-ya must follow five times branching musical notes.

When a person utters these five syllables of a row correctly with right musical pitches it will be a good consonant musical exercise with spiritual context. Anyone who tries to sing the five rows with right musical pitches will gain practical insight into the consonant relations of music notes. The spiritual bliss through this musical exercise can only be experienced and not expressed in words.

Late M.S.Subbulaksmi was reported to play with Tampoora, during her early childhood years. She used to play fifth relation in that instrument and sing along. Then she would suddenly stop vibrating strings to check if her pitches were right.

Probably this musical exercise had enabled her to reach maximum possible heights in music. This gain seems to be similar to the benefits possible with the nha-ma-chi-vA-ya inscription.
----------------------------------------------
For a beginner to understand this, one may try to download a freeware piano keyboard from the net, get the white C key of 128 Hz. Sometime right mouseclick shows that in writing. If possible purchase a Tampoora with 4 strings and get some extra strings cuz they break. Tune the thick string to the software, try 128 Hz, so it won t break. I had lessons CD of how to play Tampoora. Now take second string and double frequency to 256 Hz, take fourth string and double again to 512 Hz. Now tie third string between 2 nd and fourth, so that they sound in a row 1,2,3,4 to first string. This is also called shruti. Just strike up and down. Now that would be a way like M.S. Subbulakshmi tuned her voice. Try to be very accurate. In time one may stand up and learn some steps like adavu. Remember queen Mira Bai is often depicted singing, dancing holding the tamboura playing shruti.
adavu from sumerian tamil lexicon:158: a-da-ab> Ta. adaivu, adavu : a technical term in dance where it means the rhythmic and rule governed movement of the legs; perhaps here the instrument that gives the beat of the PaN or raaga, the rhythm. S. nam-nar> naaranam: instrumental music.

These institutes offer free utube online tution on steps:
http://onlinebharatanatyam.com/
http://onlinebharathanatyamacademy.wordpress.com

to be continued later on how to understand and fix shruties.
Any comments appreciated.

[arunk]

nigamaa,

While we are certainly entitled to follow the approach that appeals to us, I (and this is just my opinion) think your approach seems overcomplicated e by looking at too many tangential things.

The chapter in Natya Sastra about shruthis and svaras ara chapters about string instruments. They are pretty much orthogonal (in detail) to dance. So I do not think one must understand dance to get better understanding of shruthis/svaras etc - it is not needed. Besides at about the same time you have a book by Dattila which is only about music, and talks about the same thing. I have also already stated my opinion on sumero-tamil connection. At present it is an extreme fringe in research circles - and it has been so for quite some time. Until/Unless it gains momentum, in my amateur world, it is again too tangential to consider - it just would lead me nowhere.

BTW, Piano's follow equitempered tuning, and hence they are not at all appropriate for applicability here.

Arun

[nigamaa]

To answer Arun quoting
(BTW, Piano's follow equitempered tuning, and hence they are not at all appropriate for applicability here.)
not anymore true, due to justonic software ( needs to be licensed ) the tuning is accurated, human ear adjusts to as well.
http://www.justonic.com/default3.htm
modern synthesizer keybords have pitch bend for microtonal tuning, etc.

(The chapter in Natya Sastra about shruthis and svaras ara chapters about string instruments. They are pretty much orthogonal (in detail) to dance. So I do not think one must understand dance to get better understanding of shruthis/svaras etc - it is not needed)
This might be the fundamental misunderstanding. Although it is proven that music and mathematics were very well known millenia before BNS, BNS did not use mathematics. Modern scholars try to explain with mathematics and fail to recover. BNS used other values for the shruties, i. g. emotions. These were taken in yaties and so the shrutie yaties were differentiated. By applying the shrutie yaties the shruties were fixed. Now, I mean that was taught in secret, without the shruties one could not play music at the time, not properly intoned to please the divinity. In fact each and every shruti was given a Rasa like sentiment and not a mathematical value, so the dancer versed in Rasa would understand the shrutie better than the mathematician. I think this was done on purpose.
If someone practised the Tampoora as mentioned above and hit the second and third string ascending and read BNS, what it says- they would note that they are playing the svaras Ni and Ma ( including their shruties). When singing this descending it would sound aMiN, the same as muslim and syrian christian still today pray the Amen or indian Om word. Authorized scripture of Revelation of John 3:14 reads: “These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.â€

[arunk]

Like I said, you are perfectly entitled to follow these approaches. And perhaps they will gain validity and acceptance.

At this point, based on what I know and can relate to, I cannot find relevance in just about every aspect of what you say above. I am sorry.

But I dont want make any value judgment because of that. I just don't think I will be able to change your outlook in any way, and I have a feeling you will not be able to change mine either. So let us just leave it at that and conserve time and energy

Arun

[vasanthakokilam]

Good job Arun. I read it once and got something out of it. I will have to go back and read again a bit more leisurely. This field of sruthis can use such a clear mathematical explanation. Hope others who knows this will give your write up a thorough and meaningful feedback.

[cmlover]

My dear Arun
You have great potential of becoming a CM Musicologist. You have the enthusiasm and the intellectual equipments as well as industry to become a future Sambamurthy! Mark my prediction in case I was not there when you get recognized! I wish you well!

[arasi]

Arun,
vaSishTAr vAyAl...
All admiration and good wishes for attaining what CML predicts....

[uday_shankar]

Indeed superb effort Arun.

Will take a more thorough look at it when there's time - too preoccupied when you sent me the link a few years ago .

[arunk]

Thanks a lot vk, cmlover, arasi and Uday.

vk - actually there IS a lot of math in the field of sruthis. Unfortunately it is a jumble i.e. due to misinterpretations, misapplications etc. All I did was just pick out what seemed to add up (for the most part) - I did try to figure out certain things myself i.e. in a way to convince my own mind. So in certain places, the approaches/explanation may be "new" - but certainly not the conclusions. The ratios I settled on were well known before (as I mention at the start of that document).

cmlover - as far being a musicologist, I would fail on the following counts:
1. Knows zilch of Sanskrit - so has to rely on other's translations/interpretations (which can be dangerous and misleading)
2. Ditto for Telugu
3. Even tamizh - studied only upto 10th standard (oops!). When given silappatikaram tamizh - is as lost as when encounterting Sanskrit/Telugu text (Actually may be on the same boat even for certain carnatic tamizh compositions - i.e. much more modern tamizh!)
4. Knows a bit about music but not anywhere enough - still a rank amateur.

So usually it is 3 strikes and you are out! I have 4 against me I have hope for #3 as I am learning. For #1 and #2, it would have been nice if I had *enough* inclination to put in the effort - unfortunately i just have little and it is easily squashed by my laziness

Arun

[cmlover]

Arun

The biggest strike against you is your diffidence and self-deprecation!

It only takes Sanskrit 101 to read and understand most of the treatises. In three months you can get to that level. Start with the excellent book
'First Lessons in Sanskrit Grammar and Reading by Judith Tyberg' (available through Amazon).

If you have any Telugu friends you may be able to pickup enough. But it is not that crucial since many manuals are available in Tamil Translations. Especially the'bible' SSP has been so well translated by Vidya and Dr PPN (available on thhe net...). Also keep reading what VGV is writing meticulously on T (bless him!). It is fun, educational and teaches the rudiments of Telugu Grammar.

I do not question your knowledge of Tamil which is more than adequate.

From the time I knew you, you have made phenomenal progress in CM. And with the great 'pitchappa' by your side and your experimenting nature you are well setup to test the postulated theories (debunk or modify them!). When you hit a brickwall just holler to Uday

When there is motivation and enthusiasm there is no room for laziness!

Rome was not built in a day

GOOD LUCK!

[arasi]

Said it like a psychiatrist ! Any group therapy sessions available??

[cmlover]

Of course! The very first meeting of the group will be to listen to your choice lyrics still waiting to see the light of the day
(The next session will focus on the manodharma interpretation of the lyrics by Uday in his magic pipe!)

[arunk]

cml -

Thanks for the reference to that book. I do have some books but one on Sanskrit recommended by you would be an immediate by and read for me.

And yes VGV's writeups for Tyagaraja krithis are easily the very best I have seen *EVER*. His work beats all of the books i have seen (and all I have) hands down within a heartbeat! His write-ups on the krithis are absolutely essential for anyone singing those particular songs.

PS: Believe it or not, I do have a Brown's Telugu grammar book! But unfortunately a very hard read as 95% of the telugu words are in telugu in a hand-written font (so hard to decipher)

[vasanthakokilam]

Arun:

On the sruthi derivation, I have not grasped one thing. Bharatha's experiment starts with two Vinas tuned to Shadja grama and Madhyagrama. How was that accomplished in the first place? Is that to be taken as an 'axiom'? And did they find that by trial and error just by listening? I can see that some of the swarasthanas of the two gramas can be figured out by 'what sounds right to the ear using consonance relationships' but they would have had the same problems for other notes that can not be determined through consonance. Apologies if this question is due to not understanding the basics of Bharatha's two vina experiment.

[arunk]

Arun:

On the sruthi derivation, I have not grasped one thing. Bharatha's experiment starts with two Vinas tuned to Shadja grama and Madhyagrama. How was that accomplished in the first place? Is that to be taken as an 'axiom'? And did they find that by trial and error just by listening? I can see that some of the swarasthanas of the two gramas can be figured out by 'what sounds right to the ear using consonance relationships' but they would have had the same problems for other notes that can not be determined through consonance. Apologies if this question is due to not understanding the basics of Bharatha's two vina experiment.

Yep an axiom in my write-up. As I say initially, the write-up does not get into how/why the intervals are there are. It assumes that Bharata knew to tune the vina to sadja-grama, which of course is not an unreasonable assumption

Given that, if we apply the math behind consonances, we get these ratios (of course ri and dha's raios being assumed i.e. 10/9,5/3 seems most plausible ).

Note that once you have a certain tuning get ingrained in a system, people will develop innate ability to know each tone. For example, in Guitar you have EGBDAE. When you start as beginner and learn tuning, you start with E, then using that get A etc. But later on, can tune each string by just knowing how it sounds in arpeggio. Many just know from E, what A should sound like, B should sound like etc. Consider the old vina-harp to be like that except it was sa-ri-ga-ma-pa-da-ni rather than EGBDAE. Knowing a "sa" they can tune everything else

Arun

[vasanthakokilam]

Arun:

OK, thanks. One follow up question.

Are the two gramas independently defined ( and tuned ) or one is defined in relationship to the other? like, if the Madyamagrama is defined in relation to the Shadjagrama.

If the two gramas are truly independent, then the sruthis are a by product of that. There is then something fundamentally significant. I can interpret that the sruthis are born out of those two independent entities and discoverable by Bharatha's two vina experiment. But if the two gramas are dependent on each other, then the sruthis are just another representation of that dependency of the two gramas.

I do not mean to question the significance of your mathematical derivation, but I am just trying to figure out from Bharatha's experiment where the sruthi's originate at a fundamental level.