Origin of the portraits

braindrain · Post by **braindrain** » 28 Jan 2008, 15:56

Not sure if this was discussed..

I'm curious to know who has done the portraits of Sri Thyagaraja , Sri Muthuswami Dikshitar and Sri Shyama Shastry - the pictures that are popular today.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 28 Jan 2008, 16:05

Interesting....if they had lived just a little while longer, we could have had photographs!

When I went to the Vidwant Samajam the other day I noticed a distinctly different portrait of Thyagaraja....it looked a lot like Doreswami Iyengar!

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 28 Jan 2008, 16:51

I have read somewhere that it is one Mr Rajam who has drawn these portraits.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 28 Jan 2008, 17:04

Yes, the portraits which we see in the academy and elsewhere are by S. Rajam.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 28 Jan 2008, 17:44

But he must have been inspired by some painting...or is our conception of the trinity's appearance entirely the result of S Rajam's imagination?....I mean was Syama Sastri really dark and stout and Thyagaraja, fair and frail? Or is all of that just Rajam's manodharma?!!

Have any of the elders on this forum heard their grandparents/elders talk about having seen any of the trinity or even others like Patnam or Maha Vaidyanatha Iyer? Let's say if someone is 70-80 today, it is just about possible that some elder relative of him/her would have seen Thyagaraja in flesh and blood!

arvindt · Post by **arvindt** » 28 Jan 2008, 19:41

But he must have been inspired by some painting...or is our conception of the trinity's appearance entirely the result of S Rajam's imagination?

Definitely in MD's case, there exists an actual portrait by the royal artist of the Ettayapuram Samasthana,
actually drawn in Dikshitar's presence:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Dikshitar.png

chalanata · Post by **chalanata** » 28 Jan 2008, 19:56

i have seen the picture of saint singing and anchaneya swami sitting before him listening to music. i used to think that this portrait was before the popular one going the rounds now in time. this may be because of the subtle clolours used in the portrait giving it a sort of antiquity. (Thanks to Raja Ravi varma for the subtility in oil portraits).

as far as patnam and maha vaidaya natha sivan i have heard one old gentlemen who was associated with kalakshetra taking for podhikai interview saying that when mysore vasudevachar sought the way to patnam's house in tiruvaiyaru vaidhyanatha sivan sarcastically remarked it seems 'andha medhavi antha veetla irukkan; poipparu....'. ( that 'scholar' lives there; you can find him..)
the gentleman i think was vasudevachar's grandson.
i presume the picture was drawn during swami's time itself and the frail looking image in my opinion has lot of credibility.

sramaswamy · Post by **sramaswamy** » 29 Jan 2008, 02:24

This url has some details on how S.Rajam conceived and painted the portraits

http://www.hindu.com/fr/2004/05/21/stor ... 920700.htm

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 29 Jan 2008, 07:11

A wonderful thread started by braindrain.

Remarkable & also historic effort by Sri S Rajam. Posterity will always remember him for this. Thanks to arvindt and sramaswamy for the links.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 29 Jan 2008, 11:01

Wonderful link...so it does appear as if the recreations may not be a faithful pysical representation...Oh! I am now so curious to fund out how the trinity actually looked!

Also, it is interesting to note that Syama Sastri was considered handsome! I think it tells a little tale about how the West has altered our conception of beauty...

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 29 Jan 2008, 12:08

If one goes by Arvind's thread , it appears that Dikshitar's potrait is authentic and a realistic image of how he actually appeared. Sri S.Rajam's potrait is strikingly similar , except that MD appears slightly thinner and so do the Rudrakshas round the neck. Maybe Rajam was inspired by the Etayapuram Palace potrait. (Hope this potrait is being safely preserved somewhere!).

It is interesting that Sri.S.Rajam has chosen the Navagrahas as a background for MD , whereas for Thyagaraja and Syama Sastri it is Sree Rama and Kamakshi Amman (or is it Kali on the picture ?) which is the natural choice.

With regard to the the other two members of the trinity , Sri.S.Rajam must have done a lot of research before actually painting.

On this topic alone I would suggest that maybe someone from our forum can have an interview with the great artist (maybe he his 88 years now) and record the same for future generations. Vijay , how about you

?

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 29 Jan 2008, 13:43

I would be very happy to oblige but I believe Vainika actually knows him or so I remember him mentioning sometime....but I would be glad to volunteer in any case...

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 29 Jan 2008, 13:51

That would be fantastic! Vainika and you can approach together.

Lets hope this happens

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 29 Jan 2008, 21:02

This link should prove to be an excellent surprise as it was to me a while ago when I accidentally ran into it while searching for something cm related

http://acharya.iitm.ac.in/mirrors/vv/arts/syama.html

It shows that the portraits of Syama Sastry we see today are also based on a similar original.

Arun

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 29 Jan 2008, 21:12

He composed more than 300 songs, mainly in Sanskrit and Tamil, and also in Telugu , the language of his fore-fathers who came from the Andhra and settled down in Thanjavur.

arun,
Thanks for the link.

2) Even those who had Tamil as mother tongue had composed songs in Telugu - He cited the example of Patnam Subramania Iyer and Syama Sastry.

This refers to the Lecdem of Prof TRS.
http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=4215&p=1

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 29 Jan 2008, 21:19

vgv - I think that may have implied "spoke tamil at home". Of course, whether that is true or not I dont know, just saying that it could have been the basis for that opinion.

It is also interesting the statement says that most of his songs were in Sanskrit or Tamil! There is a general belief that his Tamil output is minimum - the contrary evidence against that is Smt. VidyaSankar who I think includes many tamil songs in her work (and her lineage straight to SS).

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 29 Jan 2008, 21:44

Thanks for the excellent link Arun . May be we can try & contact Mr.Raja and get more information about Sri.Shyama Sastri and share here

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 29 Jan 2008, 22:51

This is truly unbelievable.. Thanks for the link arunk..

Something needs to be done to preserve the potrait. No doubt Raja and family need to be congratulated for having preserved this invaluable treasure over a century and a half. Nevertheless these need to be handled by professionals who have knowledge of preservations of historical paintings (and in this case Carnatic Music too as they will need to know the value of this..) The question that needs to be asked is "What do we do to preserve this painting for the next 250 years atleast ? " (if not more.)

Which leads to the next inevitable question , did Rajam see this painting too , as the picture bears remarkable resemblance to Syama Sastry? Whereas the pictures of Dikshitar and Thyagaraja are frontal images , Syama Sastry's image is a side profile..

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 29 Jan 2008, 23:55

Great stuff. I was lamenting in some other context that such original information/writings do not exist or widely available about the trinity. It is great to see the original manuscript and the original painting.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 30 Jan 2008, 04:21

In this context, i am curious about the following.

1) What kind of publication and communication modes existed during Trinity's time? Did we have printing presses then? Are there descriptions of temple concerts and royal court concerts?

2) Do we have material/commentary about the trinity by people who were contemporaneous to the Trinity. I would be surprised if they do not exist, atleast in the Ettayapuram court records about MD and his brother.

3) I am curious if anyone ( Britisher or otherwise ) had traveled down south and gone back to their native country, written about their experience which was then published. Online searches already reveal some great historical material about the various agreements/communication that the indian kingdoms reached with the British east india company/British government. These are all approx. from the trinity's times. SInce they exist, I wonder if material referring to the Trinity exists. For example: (speculating) Some visitor who had traveled and met with MD, had gone back to the British Parliament and talked about the encounter and the records of that speech still exists.. etc.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 30 Jan 2008, 10:55

There is one manuscript in which MD acknowledges his gratutude to one Mr. Brown who was presumably one of his fans. "Brown Doravariki", it says. I am not sure where it is kept...

William Jackson has written a very interesting book on Thyagaraja which includes most anecdotal and factual reference material available...but the focus is more a psycho-sociological analysis of the Saint's personality.

By and large however, CM appears not to have caught the imagination of 19th century indologists....rather a pity, given the westerner's obsession with recording and preserving history

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 30 Jan 2008, 11:30

Vijay: One funny note.. In the whole wide world of internet, the only other reference to 'Brown Doravariki' was by you in another thread in this forum!!

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 30 Jan 2008, 12:03

Well at least that give me something unqiue to brag about! The reference is in one of Samaburthys books I think...

thanjavooran · Post by **thanjavooran** » 30 Jan 2008, 12:50

As S. Raja , the descendent of SS was my school/ college mate , some 55 yrs back I had a chance to peep into the puja room of his house.[ behind the famous Kamakshi amman temple] I have seen portraits of Kamakshi amman and SS besides some old palm leaves tied in a silk cloth, an old tambura and a violin too.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 30 Jan 2008, 13:56

I was caught out once, posting a cheeky reply on a forum for a request for a photograph of Thyagaraja that such a thing was hardly possible. I checked the dates and yes, the invention of the camera did precede Thyagaraja's death.

gn.sn42 · Post by **gn.sn42** » 31 Jan 2008, 00:47

vasanthakokilam wrote:In this context, i am curious about the following.

1) What kind of publication and communication modes existed during Trinity's time? Did we have printing presses then? Are there descriptions of temple concerts and royal court concerts?

2) Do we have material/commentary about the trinity by people who were contemporaneous to the Trinity. I would be surprised if they do not exist, atleast in the Ettayapuram court records about MD and his brother.

3) I am curious if anyone ( Britisher or otherwise ) had traveled down south and gone back to their native country, written about their experience which was then published. Online searches already reveal some great historical material about the various agreements/communication that the indian kingdoms reached with the British east india company/British government. These are all approx. from the trinity's times. SInce they exist, I wonder if material referring to the Trinity exists. For example: (speculating) Some visitor who had traveled and met with MD, had gone back to the British Parliament and talked about the encounter and the records of that speech still exists.. etc.

David Schulman might be of help here. He co-authored Textures of Time (http://www.otherpress.com/bookpage.php?bkID=83) with
Sanjay Subrahmanyam (the historian - http://www.history.ucla.edu/people/faculty?lid=3586 ) and Velchuru Narayana Rao.

In addition to being a historian, Schulman studied Carnatic music (http://www.hindu.com/fr/2006/03/10/stor ... 450200.htm) under Pantula Rama.

Excerpt from the book description:

"Generations of Western writers have claimed this to be true: that Southern Indians in pre-colonial times were indifferent to historical fact, and approached their past unsystematically at best, through myth, legend, and story... Textures of Time sets out not merely to disprove that idea, but to demonstrate through a brilliant blend of storytelling and scholarship the complex forms of history that were produced in South India between the seventeenth and nineteenth centuries. Through a nuanced reading of the rich language of folk epic, courtly poetry, and prose narratives, the authors reveal the divide between fact and fiction in South Indian writings and make a clear case for the existence of historical narrative in pre-colonial India."

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 31 Jan 2008, 06:16

Since Thyagaraja and MD were not cremated (don't know about SS) there is a potential for recovering DNA samples from their burial ground and perhaps they can be cloned in the future if we act soon enough !

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 31 Jan 2008, 06:53

cmlover wrote:Since Thyagaraja and MD were not cremated (don't know about SS) there is a potential for recovering DNA samples from their burial ground and perhaps they can be cloned in the future if we act soon enough !

I can understand why Tyagaraja was not cremated. But why MD wasn't? Did he take sanyAsa as well?

-Ramakriya

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 31 Jan 2008, 11:21

Thanks gn.sn42 . I will look up that book.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 01 Feb 2008, 00:14

MD was also a yogi. The standard practice was to break their skull (by breaking a cocoanut on their head; called kapaala mOkSha to release their soul and then bury them. Usually a smaarka will be built at the site and the person will be venerated as a saint. I guess this practice is similar to sainthood in christianity (and perhaps copied from them! Dharma sutras provide the criteria for burial and cremations which of course vary according to the vedic shaakha. There is a potential for recovering DNA samples from some of our great souls. There was a big debate when Gandhiji died as to whether to preserve his body or cremate him! Lord Sri Rama drowned himself at River sarayu, though it is claimed that he went to vaikuNTha with his physical body. Lord Krishna's body was washed ashore at orissa and his petrified body is believed to be part of the idol at Puri Jagannatha. I believe there is good scope exploring some of these sites archelogically as well as use modern analytic tools to take advantage of scientific breakthroughs which may yet occur!

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 01 Feb 2008, 10:52

CML I am sure you meant "putrefied"!

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 01 Feb 2008, 12:58

ramakriya,
There is a saying in Tamil 'kaNDavar viNDArillai - viNDAvar kaNDArillai' - Those who have apprended the ultimate principle are never separated from That - those who are separated (remain egocentric) are not the ones who have apprehended the truth.

Ramakrishna Paramahamsa says there are certain people who stand at the threshold - such people who seemingly retain their ego but ever merged in That are there only for benefit of human kind.

Therefore who is to certify as to who has attained samAdhi or not? It is left to individual wishes - Rama Linga Adigalar - a great Tamil Saint is stated to have finally entered a room after asking his devotees to lock it for ever. It is stated that the room has since not been opened.

Ramana Maharshi underwent a surgery for cancer with any anaesthetics.

Who is here to state what was the state of Thyagaraja and MD? We can only guess from their kritis what they aspired for and whether they would have attained it or not - no finality of course.

Taking Sanyasa is not the criteria for not cremating.
Not taking Sanyasa is not the criteria for cremating.

When one has separated Himself from the Body - while still living (jIvan mukta) or at the time death of body (vidEha mukti), what happens to the body is of no consequence. It may be of sentimental value for those nears and dears.

PS : 'viNDilar' (viNDArillai - as erroneously given by me) has another meaning also. The root word 'viLLu' also means 'talk freely - without restraint'. If that meaning is adopted, then it will be translated as 'those who have apprehended the truth are unable to express (the state) - those who speak of That are indeed not the ones who have apprehended That.
(This meaning seems to be more in tune with the Malayalam version given by harimau.)

PPS -

I know nothing except the fact of my ignorance - Socrates

http://www.quotationspage.com/quotes/Socrates

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 01 Feb 2008, 14:06

vgvindan wrote:ramakriya,
There is a saying in Tamil 'kaNDavar viNDArillai - viNDAvar kaNDArillai' .

That would be "Kandavar mindarilla; mindavar kandarilla".

Oops, wrong language, Malayalam.

In Tamil it is "Kandavar vindilar, vindavar kandilar".

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 01 Feb 2008, 17:29

harimau,
Thanks for the correction. From the Malayalam word 'miNDarilla', it seems that it should be taken only as 'speak' and not 'separate'. I have added a suitable PS.

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 01 Feb 2008, 19:07

cmlover wrote:Since Thyagaraja and MD were not cremated (don't know about SS) there is a potential for recovering DNA samples from their burial ground and perhaps they can be cloned in the future if we act soon enough !

I was expecting someone to comment on CML's suggestion of potentially recovering the DNA samples of Thyagaraja & MD from their respective Samadhis for perhaps cloning in the future..

Though I understand that CML had made this proposition with the best of intentions , I somehow found this preposterous.

Firstly the above reasons are not sufficient enough to violate the sanctity of the samadhis and secondly where do the clones go after we have satisfied our curiousity ?

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 01 Feb 2008, 19:37

cienu,
In a parallel thread, Uday had pointed out that CML does not have a 'malicious bone' in him and he only wants to stimulate others into thinking. I take that CML is half-joking because he may not be unaware of Hitler's Aryanisation theory and the consequences.

Further, DNA caters for only physical features; when conjoined twins do not have similar traits, what to talk of DNA produced 'Thyagarajas' and 'MDs' - leave alone some Frankeinstein coming out as by-product.

There is a joke - I do not remember whether it was Shakespeare or Bernard Shaw. A lady wanted to marry that gentleman in order to have a brilliant - genious off-spring. The prospective groom retorted - what happens when the off-spring looks more like me and has your brains? So,Good Luck for DNA search.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 01 Feb 2008, 21:07

There are serious discussions going on about stem cell research. Banking chord blood is a standard practice to protect the future integrity of tissues as also cloning organs for transplantation. Crayo-preservation though currently just a fad may hav ea potential future! Science is indeed advancing by leaps and bounds. The idea of a 'jurassic park' itself is not that wild. If the physical body can be cloned then cloning of the mind iteself may not be impossible in the not too distant future once the code for 'consciousness' has been cracked! Our ancient dictum 'tattvamasi' will be true as mankind inherits the potential of Godhood through 'material' means while our ancients strived for it through 'aanmIkaM'. It is our sacred duty to preserve the physical remnants of 'great persons' intact (as also their teachings and ideas) so that the future of Mankind takes a turn towards 'k^Rita yuga' than fulfilling the disaterous predictions of 'kali yuga'!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 01 Feb 2008, 22:41

VGV,
It was George Bernard Shaw. When a beautiful woman (actress?) exclaimed to GBS lhat if they were to be married, a child born to them would possess his genius and her beauty to which Shaw replied, what if it had his looks and her brains.
Not that Shaw did not have the looks...

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 02 Feb 2008, 00:07

The actress was not Marilyn Monroe

(though the jokebooks attribute it to her!).

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 02 Feb 2008, 00:40

Who knows Marilyn is the DNA clone of the actress who wooed GBS!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 02 Feb 2008, 00:56

At any rate that was one occasion when all the five arrows of manmatha were proven useless

..and perhaps GBS's alter ego incarnated as Joe DiMaggio and fulfilled his 'seven year itch'

kmrasika · Post by **kmrasika** » 02 Feb 2008, 08:28

cmlover wrote:Since Thyagaraja and MD were not cremated (don't know about SS) there is a potential for recovering DNA samples from their burial ground and perhaps they can be cloned in the future if we act soon enough !

I believe the dIkshitar and ShAstri kuTumba paramparAs have persisted, save for the fact that they are not so involved in music. I remember an article in the late "Sangeetham" website wherein the mention of the progeny of the dIkshitar family (believe their names are muttusvAmi and cinnasvAmi) have in their possession the vINA of muttusvAmi dIkshitar which is only available for public view by advanced appointment.

ShAstri's progeny is a number of siblings (from aNNasvAmi ShAstri? - it's mentioned in gOvinda rAu's book) .

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 02 Feb 2008, 18:18

[quote]This is also known as â€œDasamadvara,â€

baboosh · Post by **baboosh** » 02 Feb 2008, 20:25

[quote="vgvindan"][quote]This is also known as â€œDasamadvara,â€

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 02 Feb 2008, 21:02

baboosh,
There are a lot of practices which have no scriptural sanctions.

I am quoting here two most reputed authorites on the subject.

Let us not make rules out of exceptions - such abominable practices should be treated as exceptions and we should be discussing rules and not exceptions - of course one can always mention the exception.

I had to post the quotes because what has been mentioned in one of the previous posts is this exception - without first mentioning the rule.

Let us not put the cart before the horse.

baboosh · Post by **baboosh** » 03 Feb 2008, 17:13

vgvindan wrote:baboosh,
There are a lot of practices which have no scriptural sanctions.

I am quoting here two most reputed authorites on the subject.

Let us not make rules out of exceptions - such abominable practices should be treated as exceptions and we should be discussing rules and not exceptions - of course one can always mention the exception.

I had to post the quotes because what has been mentioned in one of the previous posts is this exception - without first mentioning the rule.

Let us not put the cart before the horse.

VGV,I agree that there are several practices which are in vogue but without the sanction of shastras.But still sampradaya also has been given an equal weightage .For instance there are views that Mangalyadharanam is not shastraic,but still it is practised and acknowledged by Kanchi Mahasvamigal also.Many such practices are adhered to.Since the mortal remains are to be interred of Sanyasis the above practice is done as though the Jiva unified with the Cosmos thro Brahmarandhra,this should have been done.Even in KanchiMahasvamigal's case I heard it was done.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 03 Feb 2008, 17:29

How preposterous!
We have made a mockery of the terminology - mukti!

baboosh · Post by **baboosh** » 04 Feb 2008, 19:56

vgvindan wrote:How preposterous!
We have made a mockery of the terminology - mukti!

I beg to differ here because as vedantis,we need not attach importance to bodies.H.H.Mahasvamigal also opined that Sanyasis interred and buried are done as matter of respect.Earlier it used to be the practice tro cut the body into pieces and thrown in forests for animals to devour the same.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 04 Feb 2008, 20:38

baboosh,
You might have heard about 'aNil kaDicca pazham' 'kiLi kottiya pazham' - fruit which has been bitten by squirrel - pecked by parrot.

In olden days we used to prefer such fruits because squirrel and parrot would taste only those fruits which are totally ripe.

In the days where every fruit is ripened with chemicals, people might not understand what the taste of such fruits are.

Do you need chemicals for ripening a fruit which has been bitten by squirrel?

Similarly, should you break the kapAla of person whose prANa has already escaped through the atomic whole on the brahma randra?

Conversely one who has not attained such a mukti, cannot attain it by breaking open his kapAla after the body has fallen.

What kind of blind ritual is this?
That's why I said preposterous.
That's why I said we have made mockery of the word 'mukti'.

Thyagaraja states about such people who follow rituals for the sake of rituals in the kRti 'manivnAlakinca' rAga naLina kAnti as under -

karma kANDa mata AkRshTulai bhava
gahana cArulai gAsi jendaga
kani mAnava avatAruDai
kanipincinADE naData tyAgarAju (manavi)

Looking at people suffering, by becoming wanderers in the forest of Worldly existence, being drawn towards the set of beliefs as contained in the portion of sacrificial (ritulistic) actions of vEdas, the Lord having embodied as a human being exemplified the right conduct.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 04 Feb 2008, 21:56

VGV,
There is still hope for kiLi kottiya pazham since 'going organic' is gaining popularity.