I just bought Sri Ravi Kiran's book on Ootthukkadu Venkata Kavi and devoured it in 2 days. It was a definite eye opener for me and is a must read for all music lovers. The details and the nearly 250 illustrations are mind-boggling and Sri Ravikiran has quoted from almost every God and Demigod that the poet has composed on.
However, the most stunning statement was the one made by Semmangudi in a Foreword to another book, quoted by the author verbatim. The veteran has actually declared that OVK was in the same caliber as the Trinity.
I cynically put this down as a hyperbolic claim initially, but reading the rest of the book leaves me more than convinced. Ravikiran has also dwelt extensively on OVK's musical command in chapters 2 and 3 and given 30-40 points of reference where OVK stands totally apart as a vaggeyakara.
"OVK = Trinity" Semmangudi!
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vgvindan
- Posts: 1430
- Joined: 13 Aug 2006, 10:51
I read with anguish attempts to 'declare' OVK as equal to Trinity. First of all 'Trinity' are not trinity because someone declared them so. Ramakrishna Paramahamsa was not accorded the title 'paramahamsa' by some of his disciples.
Why the 'Trinity' are a class apart from the musicians and 'self declared' vAggEyakkAra is because they are not mere vAggEyakkAra - some thing more than that. MD and Thyagaraja are not merely 'vAggEyakkAra' in the way it is commonly understood. They are Yogis and jIvanmuktas who used Sangita as an aid to reach the goal. For example consider the statements of MD -
(1) 'cidAnanda rUpO(a)smi brahmAnanda rUpO(a)smi' (kRti AandESvarENa - rAga Ananda Bhairavi) (2) saccidAnanda paripUrNa brahmAsmi' (kRti Sri kamalAmbikayA kaTAkSitOham - rAga SankarAbharaNa)
and the statements of Sri Thyagaraja
(1) 'Sri hari kIrtanacE dEhAdi indriya samUhamula maraci sOhamainadE cAlu' (kRti intakannAnanda - bilahari)
(2) 'Asakti lEka tA gOrucu jIvanmuktuDaiyAnandamunondu bhaktuni cAritramu vinavE' (bhaktunu cAritramu - rAga bEgaDa)
As regards OVK, he is another Jayadeva and a Yogi.
For all these personilities, musical compositions are outpourings - much like those of dRaSTas of vEdas.
These people have transcended 'yardsticks' that we may lay down in order to declare them 'Trinity' or 'Quartet'. It is much like Pope 'beatifying' someone as a 'saint' - a Saint is a not a saint because someone 'declares' him so.
Somebody raised the issue of 'posthumously' awarding 'Bharat Ratna' to Mahatma Gandhi which has been conferred on petty persons for political expediency. This 'Republic of India' owes its very name and existence to Mahatma Gandhi - and who will confer titles on whom?
With regret I say that musicians today carry the kRtis of MD and Thyagaraja much the same way those GhanapAthis who carry vEdAs on their heads without knowing their worth.
In the midst of all those 'self-styled' assessors of personilities like MD and Thyagaraja and may be OVK too - to whom the present day CM owes its very survival, there seems to be some sane elements - one eminent musician who said in a World Space interview recently that 'the Kritis of MD are much like stotra; they can be recited in Pooja - not necessarily with music'.
Ramakrishna Paramahamsa would tell a parable about a salt-doll which went to Ocean in order to measure its depth and that is the end of it.
Remember what happened to declaration of Tamil as a 'classical language'; now every Indian language will be conferred the same title one-by-one.
BTW, is being a 'Yogi' or 'jIvan mukta' also one of the yardsticks?
And what about Dasara - Pitamaha of CM?
Why the 'Trinity' are a class apart from the musicians and 'self declared' vAggEyakkAra is because they are not mere vAggEyakkAra - some thing more than that. MD and Thyagaraja are not merely 'vAggEyakkAra' in the way it is commonly understood. They are Yogis and jIvanmuktas who used Sangita as an aid to reach the goal. For example consider the statements of MD -
(1) 'cidAnanda rUpO(a)smi brahmAnanda rUpO(a)smi' (kRti AandESvarENa - rAga Ananda Bhairavi) (2) saccidAnanda paripUrNa brahmAsmi' (kRti Sri kamalAmbikayA kaTAkSitOham - rAga SankarAbharaNa)
and the statements of Sri Thyagaraja
(1) 'Sri hari kIrtanacE dEhAdi indriya samUhamula maraci sOhamainadE cAlu' (kRti intakannAnanda - bilahari)
(2) 'Asakti lEka tA gOrucu jIvanmuktuDaiyAnandamunondu bhaktuni cAritramu vinavE' (bhaktunu cAritramu - rAga bEgaDa)
As regards OVK, he is another Jayadeva and a Yogi.
For all these personilities, musical compositions are outpourings - much like those of dRaSTas of vEdas.
These people have transcended 'yardsticks' that we may lay down in order to declare them 'Trinity' or 'Quartet'. It is much like Pope 'beatifying' someone as a 'saint' - a Saint is a not a saint because someone 'declares' him so.
Somebody raised the issue of 'posthumously' awarding 'Bharat Ratna' to Mahatma Gandhi which has been conferred on petty persons for political expediency. This 'Republic of India' owes its very name and existence to Mahatma Gandhi - and who will confer titles on whom?
With regret I say that musicians today carry the kRtis of MD and Thyagaraja much the same way those GhanapAthis who carry vEdAs on their heads without knowing their worth.
In the midst of all those 'self-styled' assessors of personilities like MD and Thyagaraja and may be OVK too - to whom the present day CM owes its very survival, there seems to be some sane elements - one eminent musician who said in a World Space interview recently that 'the Kritis of MD are much like stotra; they can be recited in Pooja - not necessarily with music'.
Ramakrishna Paramahamsa would tell a parable about a salt-doll which went to Ocean in order to measure its depth and that is the end of it.
Remember what happened to declaration of Tamil as a 'classical language'; now every Indian language will be conferred the same title one-by-one.
BTW, is being a 'Yogi' or 'jIvan mukta' also one of the yardsticks?
And what about Dasara - Pitamaha of CM?
Last edited by vgvindan on 15 Sep 2007, 21:03, edited 1 time in total.
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jananee
- Posts: 272
- Joined: 30 Jun 2007, 12:27
I have also just finished reading the book on OVK by Sri Ravikiran. I must admit it is an invaluable addition to the world of music and an eye opener to me when it comes to the brilliance OVK.
I think Prof S.R Janakiraman was correct when he says " divine ecstasy, popular appeal, deep emotions, easy paced, felicitous Tamil diction, fascinating content, thrilling anecdotes, catchy tunes and enthralling music qualify the conjuring compositions of Oottukkadu Venkatasubbayyar of immortal fame".
After reading the book which is a amazing storehouse of facts with all the details and the illustrations i too felt that OVK was of the same caliber as the trinity.
As rightly pointed out by Sri Ravikiran,
" It is vital for everyone to bear in mind that none of the great composers was interested in mutual one-upmanship. to them expressing themselves through music was just a way of life. Each style has its own charm, each composer has created masterpieces that even composers in their own league cannot emulate."
I think Prof S.R Janakiraman was correct when he says " divine ecstasy, popular appeal, deep emotions, easy paced, felicitous Tamil diction, fascinating content, thrilling anecdotes, catchy tunes and enthralling music qualify the conjuring compositions of Oottukkadu Venkatasubbayyar of immortal fame".
After reading the book which is a amazing storehouse of facts with all the details and the illustrations i too felt that OVK was of the same caliber as the trinity.
As rightly pointed out by Sri Ravikiran,
" It is vital for everyone to bear in mind that none of the great composers was interested in mutual one-upmanship. to them expressing themselves through music was just a way of life. Each style has its own charm, each composer has created masterpieces that even composers in their own league cannot emulate."
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cmlover
- Posts: 11498
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
There is no need to put anybody on a 'special' pedestal as far as CM is concerned. As Isaac Newton noted they all did 'standing on the shoulders of giants'. Thyagaraja himelf acknowledges his indebtedness to Purandara! That shows his greatness and would not indicate his non-awareness of OVK! CM pedestal is large enough to accommodate all those great mahanubhavas who have toiled over the years to build this magnificent edifice. Hats off to Ravikiran for reclaiming the rightful place for the 'forgotten' OVK!
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Suji Ram
- Posts: 1529
- Joined: 09 Feb 2006, 00:04
The word trinity has 2 meaning
1. 3 closely related members-
we refer to MD, T and SS as trinity because of their contribution to CM at a particular time in our history which did have a big impact
2. The divine union of 3 members (as the west refers in their theology or trimurti in hinduism)
Nevertheless the music our trinity produced is divine- and each had a personality of their own.
CML, you are so correct. Not only is the pedastal large enough to accomodate all the past mahAnubhAvAs but also post "trinity"
I would like to read this book too for CM's sake
1. 3 closely related members-
we refer to MD, T and SS as trinity because of their contribution to CM at a particular time in our history which did have a big impact
2. The divine union of 3 members (as the west refers in their theology or trimurti in hinduism)
Nevertheless the music our trinity produced is divine- and each had a personality of their own.
CML, you are so correct. Not only is the pedastal large enough to accomodate all the past mahAnubhAvAs but also post "trinity"
I would like to read this book too for CM's sake
Last edited by Suji Ram on 16 Sep 2007, 07:12, edited 1 time in total.
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arasi
- Posts: 16873
- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
CML,
Hope you are feeling much better!
Thanks for your words of wisdom--if not on one pedestal, on many more, for others to come and occupy them too.
The expression Trinity for T, MD and SS became popular only recently. We used to hear of Tyagaraja (tyaga brahmam, tyagayyar), Dikshitar and Shyama Sastry individually by name, and of course, their being three of the eminent composers of their time was discussed too. The only problem thinking of them always as Trinity is this. Others coming before them and after-- recede to the background.
As for Ravi Kiran, forgetting he is a child prodigy and a popular artiste for a moment, we have to appreciate his classicism and the amount of interest he shows in musical works of yore and learns all he can about them. That he has written a book on OVK is to be appreciated.
As for the rasikas, it is all very well adoring a particular composer or a particular performer. That shouldn't come in the way of appreciating all the elements that nourish the growth of CM now and in the future, along with our cherishing the past treasures and bringing them to the attention of today's audience and to those would-be CM rasikas...
Hope you are feeling much better!
Thanks for your words of wisdom--if not on one pedestal, on many more, for others to come and occupy them too.
The expression Trinity for T, MD and SS became popular only recently. We used to hear of Tyagaraja (tyaga brahmam, tyagayyar), Dikshitar and Shyama Sastry individually by name, and of course, their being three of the eminent composers of their time was discussed too. The only problem thinking of them always as Trinity is this. Others coming before them and after-- recede to the background.
As for Ravi Kiran, forgetting he is a child prodigy and a popular artiste for a moment, we have to appreciate his classicism and the amount of interest he shows in musical works of yore and learns all he can about them. That he has written a book on OVK is to be appreciated.
As for the rasikas, it is all very well adoring a particular composer or a particular performer. That shouldn't come in the way of appreciating all the elements that nourish the growth of CM now and in the future, along with our cherishing the past treasures and bringing them to the attention of today's audience and to those would-be CM rasikas...
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vgvindan
- Posts: 1430
- Joined: 13 Aug 2006, 10:51
Let me clarify a few points.
I whole-heartedly welcome the endeavour of Ravi Kiran in bringing out the book on OVK.
Art is not like a competitive examination where only a few out of thousands are to be selected. It is more like a public Examination where everyone writing the examination have the scope of securing the top honours. CM platform is large enough to accommodate each and every one.
What irked me was (1) the heading of the thread - somebody trying to make a declaration of sorts. (2) use of the term 'point of reference' - euphemism for 'yardstick'.
People, sporting religious symbols all over the body, and then singing on stage 'maru bAri tALa lEnurA' one moment and in the next, singing 'mOkshamu galadA', making such declarations, is most incongruous.
Appreciating somebody's work is different from evaluating it - here the word 'appreciation' does not mean 'clapping'. A professor or teacher evaluates a student's work and not the other way round.
Yardsticks are applied for evaluation. Let us not use the word 'evaluation' and 'yardstick' indiscriminately.
I whole-heartedly welcome the endeavour of Ravi Kiran in bringing out the book on OVK.
Art is not like a competitive examination where only a few out of thousands are to be selected. It is more like a public Examination where everyone writing the examination have the scope of securing the top honours. CM platform is large enough to accommodate each and every one.
What irked me was (1) the heading of the thread - somebody trying to make a declaration of sorts. (2) use of the term 'point of reference' - euphemism for 'yardstick'.
People, sporting religious symbols all over the body, and then singing on stage 'maru bAri tALa lEnurA' one moment and in the next, singing 'mOkshamu galadA', making such declarations, is most incongruous.
Appreciating somebody's work is different from evaluating it - here the word 'appreciation' does not mean 'clapping'. A professor or teacher evaluates a student's work and not the other way round.
Yardsticks are applied for evaluation. Let us not use the word 'evaluation' and 'yardstick' indiscriminately.
Last edited by vgvindan on 16 Sep 2007, 14:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Sankar K
- Posts: 30
- Joined: 17 Sep 2006, 12:20
OK, when I saw the title, I assumed that it was about equating OVK to all the 3 of the trinity combined, by no one less than Semmangudi himself.
Anyway, these are subjective comparisons always, IMO. So, whats all this fuss about 'yardstick' & 'evaluation'? Whose yardstick, whose evaluation? Is it possible even to have a commonly agreed yardstick for "art" and such subjective issues?
Anyway, these are subjective comparisons always, IMO. So, whats all this fuss about 'yardstick' & 'evaluation'? Whose yardstick, whose evaluation? Is it possible even to have a commonly agreed yardstick for "art" and such subjective issues?
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uday_shankar
- Posts: 1475
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:37
vgvindan,
The grouping of T-MD-SS as the "trinity" of Carnatic music is owing to one factor above all else and that is that they were contemporaries, born within a decade of one another.
If not for this chance historical synchronicity, each member of the "trinity" would simply be part of a pantheon of great, spiritually inspired vaggeyakaras of Carnatic music.
Great vidvans of the present day who have acquired a stupendous repertoire and have attained considerable mastery over the compositions of the trinity (and thereby have developed a well-informed reverence for their compositional brilliance as opposed to an irrational adulation sometimes seen among rasikas) are in a good position to express well thought out opinions about the class of any new compositions that come their way. As a rasika, you are free to take it or leave it - it's only an opinion.
How OVK will be judged by popular opinion of posterity we cannot tell. His compositions are only now being unearthed, more than two centuries after his passing. For now we have the expert of opinion of vidvans like Ravikiran as well as our own musical taste to seek them out.
Meanwhile, there is no doubt that the notion of a hidebound "trinity" is an entirely artificial construct! It could well be a quartet, quintet or a group of any other natural number if evidence of other contemporaneous vaggeyakaras of comparable caliber were unearthed
.
Uday
The grouping of T-MD-SS as the "trinity" of Carnatic music is owing to one factor above all else and that is that they were contemporaries, born within a decade of one another.
If not for this chance historical synchronicity, each member of the "trinity" would simply be part of a pantheon of great, spiritually inspired vaggeyakaras of Carnatic music.
Great vidvans of the present day who have acquired a stupendous repertoire and have attained considerable mastery over the compositions of the trinity (and thereby have developed a well-informed reverence for their compositional brilliance as opposed to an irrational adulation sometimes seen among rasikas) are in a good position to express well thought out opinions about the class of any new compositions that come their way. As a rasika, you are free to take it or leave it - it's only an opinion.
How OVK will be judged by popular opinion of posterity we cannot tell. His compositions are only now being unearthed, more than two centuries after his passing. For now we have the expert of opinion of vidvans like Ravikiran as well as our own musical taste to seek them out.
Meanwhile, there is no doubt that the notion of a hidebound "trinity" is an entirely artificial construct! It could well be a quartet, quintet or a group of any other natural number if evidence of other contemporaneous vaggeyakaras of comparable caliber were unearthed
.Uday
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cmlover
- Posts: 11498
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
Thanks Arasi!
The long rest was very helpful for me to read a lot and listen to choice CM. For example I was reading the puranic debate on 'who is older? vinAyaka or muruga?'. There are many in Karnataka as well as North who claim the latter was older while we at TN are usually shocked at the revelation! That of course is another topic.
The present topic tickled my curiosity since it, if pursued will stagnate CM for ever by not letting excellence to be recognized. It is not unlikely that in future there may evolve a (?blessed) outstanding genius of CM who is head-and-shoulders above the knowns (including the 'labelled' Trinity). The only yardstick of CM is 'us' Rasikas who are also evolving in time. The moment we set ourselves to think or claim that all that is to be composed has already been done (by a select few) and all the ragas that are to be sung have already been sung (by some select vaggeyakaras) we then sound the death knell of CM. I remember my younger days when die-hards used to walk out of concert halls whenever a non-trinity song was sung! It took quite some time for the Rasikas collectively to break those self-imposed inhibitions among the performers. When MMI sang first thAyE yashOdA there was eye-brow raising among the 'die-hards' which was quelled by the swell from the Rasikas. I even reached the 'super conscious' (a la Suryaprakash) when I heard it sung by MaNakkaal. I wished then there were more compositions of OVK that should have been brought to light though the climate then was not even good to recognize the genius of PSivan (who just followed on the footsteps of Thyagaraja!). Later NKB in spite of being a fascinating Harkatha exponent failed to bring out the musical excellence of OVK. We sould all be greatful for the genius of Ravikiran for the years of reasearch and efforts he has invested in rediscovering the greatness of OVK (thanks Uday for the reference!). Let us hope our current performers too will rise to the occasion; if not we Rasikas should promote a new breed of performers whose goal is the'excellence of CM' than a blind adulation selectively parrotting the 'past glory'.
The long rest was very helpful for me to read a lot and listen to choice CM. For example I was reading the puranic debate on 'who is older? vinAyaka or muruga?'. There are many in Karnataka as well as North who claim the latter was older while we at TN are usually shocked at the revelation! That of course is another topic.
The present topic tickled my curiosity since it, if pursued will stagnate CM for ever by not letting excellence to be recognized. It is not unlikely that in future there may evolve a (?blessed) outstanding genius of CM who is head-and-shoulders above the knowns (including the 'labelled' Trinity). The only yardstick of CM is 'us' Rasikas who are also evolving in time. The moment we set ourselves to think or claim that all that is to be composed has already been done (by a select few) and all the ragas that are to be sung have already been sung (by some select vaggeyakaras) we then sound the death knell of CM. I remember my younger days when die-hards used to walk out of concert halls whenever a non-trinity song was sung! It took quite some time for the Rasikas collectively to break those self-imposed inhibitions among the performers. When MMI sang first thAyE yashOdA there was eye-brow raising among the 'die-hards' which was quelled by the swell from the Rasikas. I even reached the 'super conscious' (a la Suryaprakash) when I heard it sung by MaNakkaal. I wished then there were more compositions of OVK that should have been brought to light though the climate then was not even good to recognize the genius of PSivan (who just followed on the footsteps of Thyagaraja!). Later NKB in spite of being a fascinating Harkatha exponent failed to bring out the musical excellence of OVK. We sould all be greatful for the genius of Ravikiran for the years of reasearch and efforts he has invested in rediscovering the greatness of OVK (thanks Uday for the reference!). Let us hope our current performers too will rise to the occasion; if not we Rasikas should promote a new breed of performers whose goal is the'excellence of CM' than a blind adulation selectively parrotting the 'past glory'.
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10958
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
VGV, I am not quite sure if I understood your position, so check me on this. You do not want OVK to be 'compared' to the trinity, right? That is a fair point about but the intent of that '=' sign in the title, though provocative, is not one of 'evaluation' but an attempt at 'elevation' of OVK to the level of trinity since in popular conception OVK is no where near the Trinity in name recognition or musician/rasika appreciation. So you can think of such statements as 'carrying the water' for OVK. I do not think there is anything wrong with that since someone at somepoint has to do it. I am sure that had happened with Thyagaraja as well and we should all be thankful for that. This has nothing to do with the intrinsic worth or greatness of the Trinity or OVK, it is all about getting the information out to the public which at best is a messy process.vgvindan wrote:Let me clarify a few points.
Appreciating somebody's work is different from evaluating it - here the word 'appreciation' does not mean 'clapping'. A professor or teacher evaluates a student's work and not the other way round.
Yardsticks are applied for evaluation. Let us not use the word 'evaluation' and 'yardstick' indiscriminately.
Just as an aside, these days it is not uncommon for the students to evaluate a teacher at the end of the semesterA professor or teacher evaluates a student's work and not the other way round.
But on the serious side, do you think it is not acceptable for a scholarly analysis of the relative merits of the compositions of the trinity or OVK?
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vgvindan
- Posts: 1430
- Joined: 13 Aug 2006, 10:51
CML,
'die-hard' - if that term you want to apply to me - with due regards - you are mistaken.
The songs of Meera, Kabir, Surdas, Abhangs, Bharati, Annamayya, OVK and everyone of those great devotees are as much enjoyable as those of Thyagaraja, MD and, of course, Dasara kritis - the most lovable songs.
Thyagaraja has deviated from Valmiki Ramayana in many kritis - the deviations have been brought by me out in the respective blogs. If I am enamoured with Thyagaraja, I would not have done so. I have not lost my rationality.
MD is totally a different matter. His bhakti is SAnta bhakti - like that of Kuchela. Just preparing the Navavarana Kritis for posting as blogs, I felt as if I have done Navavarana Pooja myself - that is the kind of wordings - exhilarating - all without any musical aspect! Some eminent person has said MD's kritis are like 'nArikEla pAkam' - sorry - MD kritis are dripping with honey.
vk,
The term 'trinity' is, in my frank opinion, is not a rational coinage - as if time has been frozen. Yet, it seems to be a popular adulation. The so-called trinity were not 'trinity' by their birth - they earned it - not simply through musical compositions - but much more than that. So also anyone can do - quartet .... nay, let us have a thousand like them. What I am miffed at the way 'declarations' are made - in the same manner as titles are conferred on personalities by the Government and music fraternity by turns.
Artists who simply lend their voice to the kritis of these great personalities are not the competent ones to make such declarations. At best, they know only about Musical aspects of these kritis. If they really cared for the contents, the kind of aberrations that are found in rendering of these kritis would not have taken place. I can go on. But, to cut it short, it is, at best, a comical act to make such declarations.
kAmini vESha dhAriki sAdhvI naDatalEmaina telusunA
“Can a person playing the role of a woman know anything about the conduct of a chaste woman?â€
'die-hard' - if that term you want to apply to me - with due regards - you are mistaken.
The songs of Meera, Kabir, Surdas, Abhangs, Bharati, Annamayya, OVK and everyone of those great devotees are as much enjoyable as those of Thyagaraja, MD and, of course, Dasara kritis - the most lovable songs.
Thyagaraja has deviated from Valmiki Ramayana in many kritis - the deviations have been brought by me out in the respective blogs. If I am enamoured with Thyagaraja, I would not have done so. I have not lost my rationality.
MD is totally a different matter. His bhakti is SAnta bhakti - like that of Kuchela. Just preparing the Navavarana Kritis for posting as blogs, I felt as if I have done Navavarana Pooja myself - that is the kind of wordings - exhilarating - all without any musical aspect! Some eminent person has said MD's kritis are like 'nArikEla pAkam' - sorry - MD kritis are dripping with honey.
vk,
The term 'trinity' is, in my frank opinion, is not a rational coinage - as if time has been frozen. Yet, it seems to be a popular adulation. The so-called trinity were not 'trinity' by their birth - they earned it - not simply through musical compositions - but much more than that. So also anyone can do - quartet .... nay, let us have a thousand like them. What I am miffed at the way 'declarations' are made - in the same manner as titles are conferred on personalities by the Government and music fraternity by turns.
Artists who simply lend their voice to the kritis of these great personalities are not the competent ones to make such declarations. At best, they know only about Musical aspects of these kritis. If they really cared for the contents, the kind of aberrations that are found in rendering of these kritis would not have taken place. I can go on. But, to cut it short, it is, at best, a comical act to make such declarations.
kAmini vESha dhAriki sAdhvI naDatalEmaina telusunA
“Can a person playing the role of a woman know anything about the conduct of a chaste woman?â€
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cmlover
- Posts: 11498
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
VG
The epithet 'die-hard' was not directed at you at all but at those of the older generations (including myself) who look askance at the excellent contributions of the pre, subsequent and present generations. In spite of the lyrical excellence the Rama nATakam of aruNAcala kavi never became popular due to lack of attention from competent performers. Annamayya was almost lost until revived by the combined efforts of CM virtuosos. SvAti was restored to his place only through the magnificent efforts of HMB and pitAmaha. JC's obscurity is lightened by the commendable efforts of our own DRS. We should all enjoy and encourage the sterling efforts of those who toil day and night to bring out the best in (and for) CM without making idle comparisons and debating who is better!
I do appreciate your concern for the purity in the lyrics. This Forum is indeed a vehicle (thanks to all contributors) educating the Rasikas on the linguistic subtlities whence the performers will take note and try not to make a laughing stock of themselves (not excepting the past bloomers of the greats
The epithet 'die-hard' was not directed at you at all but at those of the older generations (including myself) who look askance at the excellent contributions of the pre, subsequent and present generations. In spite of the lyrical excellence the Rama nATakam of aruNAcala kavi never became popular due to lack of attention from competent performers. Annamayya was almost lost until revived by the combined efforts of CM virtuosos. SvAti was restored to his place only through the magnificent efforts of HMB and pitAmaha. JC's obscurity is lightened by the commendable efforts of our own DRS. We should all enjoy and encourage the sterling efforts of those who toil day and night to bring out the best in (and for) CM without making idle comparisons and debating who is better!
I do appreciate your concern for the purity in the lyrics. This Forum is indeed a vehicle (thanks to all contributors) educating the Rasikas on the linguistic subtlities whence the performers will take note and try not to make a laughing stock of themselves (not excepting the past bloomers of the greats
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uday_shankar
- Posts: 1475
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:37
Something "dripping with honey" is horribly sweet, impossible to eat and is a perversion of taste!vgvindan wrote:CML,
Some eminent person has said MD's kritis are like 'nArikEla pAkam' - sorry - MD kritis are dripping with honey.
I prefer more palatable analogies like 'nArikEla pAkam' anyday. Sorry
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vgvindan
- Posts: 1430
- Joined: 13 Aug 2006, 10:51
Srimad Bhagavatam - Book 1 - Chapter 6 - Narration about self by Narada to sage Vyasa
antar-bahiSca lOkAMs-trIn paryEmyaskandita-vrataH |
anugrahAn-mahAviShNOr-avidhAta-gatiH kvacit || 32 ||
dEvadattAm-imAM vINAM svara-brahma-vibhUShitAm |
mUrchayitvA hari-kathAM gAyamAnaS-carAmyaham || 33 ||
With the vow of constant remembrance of God continuing uninterrupted, I move about inside as well as outside the three worlds; and by the grace of Lord mahAviShNu my passage is nowhere obstructed. (32)
Playing upon (to the accompaniment of) this lute, bestowed upon me by the Lord himself and bringing out the seven primary notes of the gamut that represent brahman in the form of sound, I go about singing the story of SrI hari. (33)
Statements of Sri Thyagaraja -
rajata girISuDu nagajaku delpu svarArNava marmamulu
vijayamu gala tyAgarAjuDerugE viSvasiJci telusukO O manasA (sva)
(svara rAga - SankarAbharaNam)
The secrets of the treatise ‘svarArNava’ which Lord Siva tells pArvati are known to this victorious tyAgarAja; O My Mind! understand it by believing (the statement of this tyAgarAja).
(According to great harikatha exponent brahmaSrI TS Balakrishna Sastrigal, this treatise was given to Sri Thyagaraja by nArada.)
There are similar episodes in the life of MD about his getting vINA and initiation by Lord muruga by placing a piece of sugar-candy in MD's mouth.
More by Sri Thyagaraja -
balamu kulumu Ela rAma bhakti kAraNamu
velayu sakala siddhulella veNTa vaccu gAni mEnu(balamu)
(balamu kulamu - rAga sAvEri)
O Lord of celestials! Of what avail bodily strength or lineage? As a consequence of devotion to Lord rAma, all the shining super-natural powers would come behind one.
antar-bahiSca lOkAMs-trIn paryEmyaskandita-vrataH |
anugrahAn-mahAviShNOr-avidhAta-gatiH kvacit || 32 ||
dEvadattAm-imAM vINAM svara-brahma-vibhUShitAm |
mUrchayitvA hari-kathAM gAyamAnaS-carAmyaham || 33 ||
With the vow of constant remembrance of God continuing uninterrupted, I move about inside as well as outside the three worlds; and by the grace of Lord mahAviShNu my passage is nowhere obstructed. (32)
Playing upon (to the accompaniment of) this lute, bestowed upon me by the Lord himself and bringing out the seven primary notes of the gamut that represent brahman in the form of sound, I go about singing the story of SrI hari. (33)
Statements of Sri Thyagaraja -
rajata girISuDu nagajaku delpu svarArNava marmamulu
vijayamu gala tyAgarAjuDerugE viSvasiJci telusukO O manasA (sva)
(svara rAga - SankarAbharaNam)
The secrets of the treatise ‘svarArNava’ which Lord Siva tells pArvati are known to this victorious tyAgarAja; O My Mind! understand it by believing (the statement of this tyAgarAja).
(According to great harikatha exponent brahmaSrI TS Balakrishna Sastrigal, this treatise was given to Sri Thyagaraja by nArada.)
There are similar episodes in the life of MD about his getting vINA and initiation by Lord muruga by placing a piece of sugar-candy in MD's mouth.
More by Sri Thyagaraja -
balamu kulumu Ela rAma bhakti kAraNamu
velayu sakala siddhulella veNTa vaccu gAni mEnu(balamu)
(balamu kulamu - rAga sAvEri)
O Lord of celestials! Of what avail bodily strength or lineage? As a consequence of devotion to Lord rAma, all the shining super-natural powers would come behind one.
Last edited by vgvindan on 17 Sep 2007, 10:30, edited 1 time in total.
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baboosh
- Posts: 140
- Joined: 12 Aug 2006, 17:34
Rightly said,There are so many saints who are unheardof.As The Thevaram goes there are some Thogai Adiyaars who will appear from time to time Like Bhaktanai Panivar,Parmanaiye paaduvaretc.,There is no canonisation as in other religions.arasi wrote:CML,
Hope you are feeling much better!
Thanks for your words of wisdom--if not on one pedestal, on many more, for others to come and occupy them too.
The expression Trinity for T, MD and SS became popular only recently. We used to hear of Tyagaraja (tyaga brahmam, tyagayyar), Dikshitar and Shyama Sastry individually by name, and of course, their being three of the eminent composers of their time was discussed too. The only problem thinking of them always as Trinity is this. Others coming before them and after-- recede to the background.
As for Ravi Kiran, forgetting he is a child prodigy and a popular artiste for a moment, we have to appreciate his classicism and the amount of interest he shows in musical works of yore and learns all he can about them. That he has written a book on OVK is to be appreciated.
As for the rasikas, it is all very well adoring a particular composer or a particular performer. That shouldn't come in the way of appreciating all the elements that nourish the growth of CM now and in the future, along with our cherishing the past treasures and bringing them to the attention of today's audience and to those would-be CM rasikas...
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cmlover
- Posts: 11498
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
Dear VG
don't mistake my curiosity. I genuinely wish to understand the mentality of the 'great ones'.
The quote you provided from bhagavatam of Narada tells only half the story. In the previous verses he claims:
vibhoH antaH anuprANaM aham vivEshE (I entered into (brahma) along with his life breath.
prANebhyaH marIcimishrA ^RiShayaH ja~njirE aham ca (I was also born along with the marIci etc, riShis from the breath (of Brahma))
Though factual, Narada was indeed 'proud' of his ancestry as well as his skills in Music. The puranic story of the competition between Hanuman and Narada indeed is the telling description of 'nArada garva bha^Ngam'.
On similar lines
While extolling the divinity should we not be aware of the 'human frailties' inherent in the 'great ones'.
Did not the same prophet mohammed (pbuh) who spoke the words of almighty Allah also speak the 'satanic verse'?
don't mistake my curiosity. I genuinely wish to understand the mentality of the 'great ones'.
The quote you provided from bhagavatam of Narada tells only half the story. In the previous verses he claims:
vibhoH antaH anuprANaM aham vivEshE (I entered into (brahma) along with his life breath.
prANebhyaH marIcimishrA ^RiShayaH ja~njirE aham ca (I was also born along with the marIci etc, riShis from the breath (of Brahma))
Though factual, Narada was indeed 'proud' of his ancestry as well as his skills in Music. The puranic story of the competition between Hanuman and Narada indeed is the telling description of 'nArada garva bha^Ngam'.
On similar lines
does smack of boasting. Even the life history of Thyagaraja gives indication that he was proud of his musical accomplishments. Though living in the same street he never paid any homage to (or even praise) MD another blessed vaggeyakara. (In all fairness neither did MD which also smacks of professional jealousy.) Though SS was a great admirer of Thyagaraja.The secrets of the treatise ‘svarArNava’ which Lord Siva tells pArvati are known to this victorious tyAgarAja
While extolling the divinity should we not be aware of the 'human frailties' inherent in the 'great ones'.
Did not the same prophet mohammed (pbuh) who spoke the words of almighty Allah also speak the 'satanic verse'?
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uday_shankar
- Posts: 1475
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:37
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jananee
- Posts: 272
- Joined: 30 Jun 2007, 12:27
Going back to the start of the thread on the book by Sri Ravi Kiran on OVK - Life and contributions..I was wondering if the discussion could also focus on the richness of the Kamakshi Navavaranams and the Saptaratna kritis. i just downloaded the lyrics of the navavaranams from www.shaktiextratainment.com and thought if all you learned people could share your views on the richness of these compositions....
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vgvindan
- Posts: 1430
- Joined: 13 Aug 2006, 10:51
cml,I genuinely wish to understand the mentality of the 'great ones'.
I think that you are expecting a reply from me. There could be two view points - one contemporaneously and the other historically.
Contemporaneously, what you say might be correct, because I am not privy to the information you have provided about professional jealousy etc. Taking them to be true, in his own life time there would have been a scope of disputing his greatness.
Now the historical angle - there is a saying 'do not ask about the pUrvASrama' of a sanyAsi. I believe that all it takes is not even a minute to transform a sinner to Saint. Once he has attained the status, there is no way we can pick holes on his previous life (ASrama).
This is true of every great person. Even Mahatma Gandhi had many failings; Subrahmanya Bharati had failings. We portrary Gandhi as a 80 year old man - not as a 30 or 40 or even 50 year old. The reason is that that was the acme of his life.
The story of nArada is very much relevant because one might fall into the trap of egotism and then he is bound to lose his pre-eminence only to be restored again and never to fall again. Take the case of sage Viswamitra - He as a king did not hesitate to wage a war against an unarmed sage; but the same person, when became Brahma Rishi, would not harm even the harmers and he had to call Rama for protection of his sacrificial oblations. There can be any number of such examples.
The moral is, once you reach the state of non-return, it is not only non-return for the person, but also for others too who should not raise the issue of his past actions. When a fruit has ripened, no one asks question as to how sour it was when it had not ripened.
Looking from this angle, how Thyagaraja was in his life-time before he attained the state of jIvanmukta is of no relevance now. So is the case with MD.
Even in the case of Saint VallalAr - he lamented - kaDai virittEn koLvArillai - mUTTai kaTTiviTTEn - a regret for a person of his stature.
I do not know whether I have answered your query - not that I am telling anything which you would not know. Yet I thought it to be my duty to respond when you put it as a query.
PS
Today I looked at the lyrics of Kamakshi Navavarana Kritis of OVK as provided by ifcm_rfi. (These kritis are already famous and I have recordings of these) These kritis are no less sweet than the MD's Kamalamba Navavarana Kritis. Therefore, it beats me as to why we always go for equations. As Vivekanada said, 'let there be as many religions as human beings are'; So also let all the musicians become true vAggeyakkAra of the stature of Thyagaraja, MD, nay much more. But then, how tall is tall?
PPS - I saw your latest posting about OVK lyrics. I could not agree with you more.
Last edited by vgvindan on 17 Sep 2007, 23:00, edited 1 time in total.
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cmlover
- Posts: 11498
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
Thanks VG
In short the message is more important than the medium; no matter from where it comes from.
Hence we Rasikas expect our performers to give us the 'best' without looking at the composer-label. it is indeed a 'Western' practice to give references/acknowledgements chapter and verse. Our vedic sages never worried about these and hence we revere them collectively! How many vyasas and shankarachaaryas existed we never know! Similarly we should ignore the 'mudras' and celebrate the CM greats collectively! I admire the self-effacing greatness of OVK for not affixing a mudra (exccept in some rare compositions which could be even artefacts!)
In short the message is more important than the medium; no matter from where it comes from.
Hence we Rasikas expect our performers to give us the 'best' without looking at the composer-label. it is indeed a 'Western' practice to give references/acknowledgements chapter and verse. Our vedic sages never worried about these and hence we revere them collectively! How many vyasas and shankarachaaryas existed we never know! Similarly we should ignore the 'mudras' and celebrate the CM greats collectively! I admire the self-effacing greatness of OVK for not affixing a mudra (exccept in some rare compositions which could be even artefacts!)
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garudadhwani
- Posts: 10
- Joined: 03 Sep 2007, 10:24
I have been following this interesting thread for some time.
I also read Shri Ravikiran's book and it is a wonderful treasure and contribution to this music world as it brings a new perspective to the evolution of Carnatic Music around the turn of 17th century, as the author has rightly said in his book.
Jananee, cml and Uday,
I completely agree that Carnatic Music is a pedestal that can accomodate many greats and that the composers themselves were never interested in one-upmanship.
vgvindan,
It is a very well-known fact that there have been many great musician-composers like GNB, MDR and many others. Many other musicians like MS and Semmangudi were themselves deeply immersed in the ocean of lyrics. Without understanding and mastering sahitya, SSI would not have been able to tune many wonderful compositions that are rendered even today. So it is absolutely preposterous to say that artistes are not competent to make such declarations. Obviously, I don’t think we expect some scientist/engineer to study and analyse these compostions.
Even the title ‘trinity’ could have been given by one of the great artiste/musician of yester-years
Also, while the shloka quotes on Narada, Tyagaraja and MD’s divine grace are quite well-known (though I wonder how it is relevant to this thread) to many, it is worth mentioning that OVK was also a blessed composer who had none other than Lord Krishna as his Guru. This is even mentioned by the composer in one of his compositions in praise of Guru (Guru padaaravindam – Abhogi) where he says :
pArvai onrilE viLainda bhAgyamidu
Arkum idu aridAnadu parimaLa sad (guru padAravinda kOmalam)
Talking about Navavarana krtis, it is now accepted that OVK composed these much earlier and apart from the sahitya that brims with mantric, tantric and poetic nuances, it is amazing how a composer could conceive of handling such complex talas such as khanda dhruvam, sankeerna mathyam and khanda triputa (2 kalais) with such spontaneity and ease. This is an unparalled feat that no other subsequent composer has ever attempted (atleast the first 2 talas).
I also read Shri Ravikiran's book and it is a wonderful treasure and contribution to this music world as it brings a new perspective to the evolution of Carnatic Music around the turn of 17th century, as the author has rightly said in his book.
Jananee, cml and Uday,
I completely agree that Carnatic Music is a pedestal that can accomodate many greats and that the composers themselves were never interested in one-upmanship.
vgvindan,
This is not a fair statement. While I completely agree with the fact that there have been and continue to be some musicians who are not well-versed lyrically, it is not fair to apply that yardstick to judge and baptize all musicians in the same league.Artists who simply lend their voice to the kritis of these great personalities are not the competent ones to make such declarations. At best, they know only about Musical aspects of these kritis. If they really cared for the contents, the kind of aberrations that are found in rendering of these kritis would not have taken place. I can go on. But, to cut it short, it is, at best, a comical act to make such declarations.
It is a very well-known fact that there have been many great musician-composers like GNB, MDR and many others. Many other musicians like MS and Semmangudi were themselves deeply immersed in the ocean of lyrics. Without understanding and mastering sahitya, SSI would not have been able to tune many wonderful compositions that are rendered even today. So it is absolutely preposterous to say that artistes are not competent to make such declarations. Obviously, I don’t think we expect some scientist/engineer to study and analyse these compostions.
Even the title ‘trinity’ could have been given by one of the great artiste/musician of yester-years
Also, while the shloka quotes on Narada, Tyagaraja and MD’s divine grace are quite well-known (though I wonder how it is relevant to this thread) to many, it is worth mentioning that OVK was also a blessed composer who had none other than Lord Krishna as his Guru. This is even mentioned by the composer in one of his compositions in praise of Guru (Guru padaaravindam – Abhogi) where he says :
pArvai onrilE viLainda bhAgyamidu
Arkum idu aridAnadu parimaLa sad (guru padAravinda kOmalam)
Talking about Navavarana krtis, it is now accepted that OVK composed these much earlier and apart from the sahitya that brims with mantric, tantric and poetic nuances, it is amazing how a composer could conceive of handling such complex talas such as khanda dhruvam, sankeerna mathyam and khanda triputa (2 kalais) with such spontaneity and ease. This is an unparalled feat that no other subsequent composer has ever attempted (atleast the first 2 talas).
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vgvindan
- Posts: 1430
- Joined: 13 Aug 2006, 10:51
Uday, If you see my post (#2), I have mentioned OVK is a Yogi. I am aware of OVK and his lyrics long before.
BTW, I can understand your sarcasm. Now that Kamakshi Navavarana Kritis are published, I wish musicians would enjoy the juice and not the bagasse; but then who will bell the cat? One eminent vocal musician told in an interview when making comparison with instrumental music - "Instrumentalists have no problem of lyrics, but vocal musicians find it difficult to stick to the diction" or words to that effect. Obviously when notations are written in a mechanical way, how words would fit in? In fact, there is a proposal in one of the forums to automate notation-writing. I am not amused.
Remember the famous dialogue of Sankarabharanam - Sankara Sastry tells the teacher of a girl student - 'ammA' this word many bhAvas and expressions depending on the situation. The 'ammA' of crying child for milk is different from the 'ammA' of a frightened child - it is different again for 'ammA' of a beggar asking for alms. If this simple principle is understood, notation-writing would have been treated with much more seriousness and sincerety than has been done so far.
I am reminded of the movie 'The Terminator' - the Machine-man Arnold would tell the boy 'Why do you weap - I have never understood human emotions'. That is the ultimate truth about automation. You can wire the whole world, but one human emotion cannot be replicated by programming.
Sorry for digression.
BTW, I can understand your sarcasm. Now that Kamakshi Navavarana Kritis are published, I wish musicians would enjoy the juice and not the bagasse; but then who will bell the cat? One eminent vocal musician told in an interview when making comparison with instrumental music - "Instrumentalists have no problem of lyrics, but vocal musicians find it difficult to stick to the diction" or words to that effect. Obviously when notations are written in a mechanical way, how words would fit in? In fact, there is a proposal in one of the forums to automate notation-writing. I am not amused.
Remember the famous dialogue of Sankarabharanam - Sankara Sastry tells the teacher of a girl student - 'ammA' this word many bhAvas and expressions depending on the situation. The 'ammA' of crying child for milk is different from the 'ammA' of a frightened child - it is different again for 'ammA' of a beggar asking for alms. If this simple principle is understood, notation-writing would have been treated with much more seriousness and sincerety than has been done so far.
I am reminded of the movie 'The Terminator' - the Machine-man Arnold would tell the boy 'Why do you weap - I have never understood human emotions'. That is the ultimate truth about automation. You can wire the whole world, but one human emotion cannot be replicated by programming.
Sorry for digression.
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sureshvv
- Posts: 5542
- Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17
Uday...Uday_Shankar wrote:I prefer more palatable analogies like 'nArikEla pAkam' anyday. Sorry
I think "nArikela pAkam" is not so much about the palatability but about the effort required before you can enjoy the taste. There are 3 pAkams usually applied to literary works... (1) drAksha (2) kathali and (3) nArikEla. All in increasing effort required before you can enjoy the fruit of your labor
nArikEla is used to describe Narayaneeyam and I find MD quite a bit easier to follow.-
arasi
- Posts: 16873
- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
My question is, how do we know if one or a few of those who now inhabit the CM world wouldn't make the grade to even sagehood in the future, just as the greats of the past did? A tall order, I agree, but the contemporaries of T would not have imagined him as the figure worthy of ArAdhanA, as we see him now. Also, we revere T's kritis, no matter when they were composed--after his 'ripening' with wisdom or before...
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cmlover
- Posts: 11498
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
Good point arasi!
The greatness of a person is seldom discovered during their lifetime. It is distance (in time) as well as the lore which gets builtup that lends the enchantment. One of the rare exceptions is our Kanchi PeriyavaaL! In music MS comes close (though not all stories that are being told about her poshthumously are savourable!). Even take the case of Mother Theresa! The road to 'sainthood' is rough and tough!
The greatness of a person is seldom discovered during their lifetime. It is distance (in time) as well as the lore which gets builtup that lends the enchantment. One of the rare exceptions is our Kanchi PeriyavaaL! In music MS comes close (though not all stories that are being told about her poshthumously are savourable!). Even take the case of Mother Theresa! The road to 'sainthood' is rough and tough!
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Sankar K
- Posts: 30
- Joined: 17 Sep 2006, 12:20
cml - regarding Mother Theresa & road to sainthood - IMO, the whole process elevating a person to sainthood currently in vogue seems silly. Anyway, that is totally tangential to the discussion.
vgv - let us posit that somebody about a hundred years ago created the concept of Quartet, instead of Trinity, comprising of ST, MD, SS & OVK. Would we be discussing this today (those older than 100 not included in the we)? Wouldn't we have been conditioned to accept Quartet. God forbid if some upstart started saying no it should be Quintet.
vgv - let us posit that somebody about a hundred years ago created the concept of Quartet, instead of Trinity, comprising of ST, MD, SS & OVK. Would we be discussing this today (those older than 100 not included in the we
)? Wouldn't we have been conditioned to accept Quartet. God forbid if some upstart started saying no it should be Quintet.
Last edited by Sankar K on 19 Sep 2007, 00:27, edited 1 time in total.
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vgvindan
- Posts: 1430
- Joined: 13 Aug 2006, 10:51
Sankar,
I think my point has not been understood correctly. It was not about 'elevation' or 'downgrading'; these personages about whom we are discussing have, IMHO, risen beyond the stage of recognition etc. Should they be alive to-day, they would be sitting in judgment about the capabilities of these very individuals who are 'nominating' for 'title' of 'Trinity' or 'Quartet' or Quintet'. Who should judge whom? It is like son nominating his father as 'father'.
I think my point has not been understood correctly. It was not about 'elevation' or 'downgrading'; these personages about whom we are discussing have, IMHO, risen beyond the stage of recognition etc. Should they be alive to-day, they would be sitting in judgment about the capabilities of these very individuals who are 'nominating' for 'title' of 'Trinity' or 'Quartet' or Quintet'. Who should judge whom? It is like son nominating his father as 'father'.
Last edited by vgvindan on 18 Sep 2007, 15:07, edited 1 time in total.
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ganamurthi
- Posts: 4
- Joined: 15 Sep 2007, 18:46
When I made my initial post, I probably did not make my meaning clear. I did not upgrade or downgrade anyone but merely paraphrased a quote. I just quoted what someone else had quoted from what someone had published.
That said, I would still think that this is not whether OVK = Trinity put together or taken individually. The accepted norm has been to club those three contemporaries as the benchmark of Carnatic composing. If we find evidence that shows that music was not exactly languishing before the big three but actually flourishing strongly, we would naturally doff our hats off to the composers who were responsible for that, wouldn't we? (The composers could have been uncaring about recognition but it is not unnatural for scholars to analyse or categorise them.)
In my opinion, a very pertinent and significant point has been made in chapter 3 of this book, which I will attempt to recapture here:
"Applying the yardstick of not just the quantum output but the quality and style of composing, OVK's style is 'one of the five distinct styles' in CM, the other four being T, MD, SS and Kshetragna padams (he qualifies these as rendered by Veena Dhanammal group)." The author opines that the rest of the comopsers' styles fall within one of these broad categories.
Sri Ravikiran comes through as someone who has a keenly evolved lyrical knowledge. The heavier part of the book has separate chapters on OVK's poetic felicity, imagination, philosophy and spiritual thoughts, songs on pilgrimage kshetra, operas etc. The examples from many rare OVK compositions actually show him to have been a sangeetha yogi of rare stock.
This is why, I felt that the pitAmaha's assessment was, at the end of the day, very apt.
That said, I would still think that this is not whether OVK = Trinity put together or taken individually. The accepted norm has been to club those three contemporaries as the benchmark of Carnatic composing. If we find evidence that shows that music was not exactly languishing before the big three but actually flourishing strongly, we would naturally doff our hats off to the composers who were responsible for that, wouldn't we? (The composers could have been uncaring about recognition but it is not unnatural for scholars to analyse or categorise them.)
In my opinion, a very pertinent and significant point has been made in chapter 3 of this book, which I will attempt to recapture here:
"Applying the yardstick of not just the quantum output but the quality and style of composing, OVK's style is 'one of the five distinct styles' in CM, the other four being T, MD, SS and Kshetragna padams (he qualifies these as rendered by Veena Dhanammal group)." The author opines that the rest of the comopsers' styles fall within one of these broad categories.
Sri Ravikiran comes through as someone who has a keenly evolved lyrical knowledge. The heavier part of the book has separate chapters on OVK's poetic felicity, imagination, philosophy and spiritual thoughts, songs on pilgrimage kshetra, operas etc. The examples from many rare OVK compositions actually show him to have been a sangeetha yogi of rare stock.
This is why, I felt that the pitAmaha's assessment was, at the end of the day, very apt.
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vgvindan
- Posts: 1430
- Joined: 13 Aug 2006, 10:51
The only pitAmaha I am aware of -This is why, I felt that the pitAmaha's assessment was, at the end of the day, very apt.
varamaina pEru kalugu ganga-rAviki
vandanamonarincitE brOva nErcunA
Thyagaraja Kriti 'naLina lOcana' - madhyamAvati
http://thyagaraja.sulekha.com/blog/post ... vam-16.htm
Last edited by vgvindan on 20 Sep 2007, 11:33, edited 1 time in total.
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srinivasasarma
- Posts: 89
- Joined: 23 Oct 2006, 18:16
to all
if what i understand VGV's statement as
- trinity means T, MD and SS-,
as 'mukkani' means mA, palA and vAzhai
as 'muththamizh' means iyal, isai and nAtakam-
a standard/NAME set by elders, for reasons well known to them.
He is very much right to say that we are not here to alter these
though some of the compositions of others were very very great.
Everyone knows PurandaradAsa, OVK .... are equally great.
--
sorry, i cud not stop sending this msg. anyway i enjoyed reading
allm msgs.
--
if what i understand VGV's statement as
- trinity means T, MD and SS-,
as 'mukkani' means mA, palA and vAzhai
as 'muththamizh' means iyal, isai and nAtakam-
a standard/NAME set by elders, for reasons well known to them.
He is very much right to say that we are not here to alter these
though some of the compositions of others were very very great.
Everyone knows PurandaradAsa, OVK .... are equally great.
--
sorry, i cud not stop sending this msg. anyway i enjoyed reading
allm msgs.
--
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vgvindan
- Posts: 1430
- Joined: 13 Aug 2006, 10:51
Sure,
But for which He (bhIshma) would not have had the presence of his mother (Ganga) when he was lying on Sara Sayana; but, why worry, when others have the presence of Ganga Sagaram itself?
But for which He (bhIshma) would not have had the presence of his mother (Ganga) when he was lying on Sara Sayana; but, why worry, when others have the presence of Ganga Sagaram itself?
Last edited by vgvindan on 21 Sep 2007, 10:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Ponbhairavi
- Posts: 1075
- Joined: 13 Feb 2007, 08:05
Lot of discussion has taken place about the equation attributed to SSI that OVK=Trinity.I am anxious to know whether SSI has sung any song of OVK in any of his stage concerts . I shall be very thankful if any of the correspondents of this forum or the author of the bookcan upload any recording of any OVK's song bySSI or Ariakudy or GNB or MSS. I have been yearning to listen to them in the voice of the great Maestros
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cmlover
- Posts: 11498
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
Folks
All this heat just because SSI said
OVK = Trinity
because some of us would not or could not accommodate OVK in that 'congested' pedestal.
I wish SSI had said
OVK > Trinity
With the information available perhaps that can be justified. No feathers will be ruffled since Trinity can comfortably share and contest their cosy corner. He also predates them and would not be competing for a place with 'pitamaha' time-wise
Seriously Ravikiran has only opened treasure chest. Bounty hunters should rushin to collect and cash the spoils.
Are our openminded new generation of budding Iconoclastic CM Performers ready ?
All this heat just because SSI said
OVK = Trinity
because some of us would not or could not accommodate OVK in that 'congested' pedestal.
I wish SSI had said
OVK > Trinity
With the information available perhaps that can be justified. No feathers will be ruffled since Trinity can comfortably share and contest their cosy corner. He also predates them and would not be competing for a place with 'pitamaha' time-wise
Seriously Ravikiran has only opened treasure chest. Bounty hunters should rushin to collect and cash the spoils.
Are our openminded new generation of budding Iconoclastic CM Performers ready ?
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nadhasudha
- Posts: 382
- Joined: 22 May 2006, 06:40
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Ponbhairavi
- Posts: 1075
- Joined: 13 Feb 2007, 08:05
My point is if SSI considers that OVK is of the same caliber as the Trinity why he has not sung any of his compositions as much as he should have.Is there not a paradoxe here? If the statement is from a musicologist or author of a book we can take it as an hyperbolic comment or an eulogistic utterance. But SSI being a musician who has sung millions of krithis, the anomaly is glaring.Add to it the fact that the other three stalwarts mentioned by me( may be there are some more ) of yesteryears have also kept off . There is some duality here.
Does the book of Ravi kiran throw any light on this duality? I have no doubt and I perfectlyagree with cmlover that OVK is >Trinity but the certificate from SSI is hollow and does not add anything to the glory of OVK..
Does the book of Ravi kiran throw any light on this duality? I have no doubt and I perfectlyagree with cmlover that OVK is >Trinity but the certificate from SSI is hollow and does not add anything to the glory of OVK..
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cmlover
- Posts: 11498
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
Ravikiran is the right person to answer this query. But I can assure you that Thaaye yashoda was sung from early 30s and it was an anomaly. There was a strong reluctance to sing Tamil songs in those days until MS, MMI and GNB chose to break the rules. Our old school of stalwarts were quite traditional who would sing only Trinity in concerts. But outside in light moments they would sing anything. It took a very long time for Tamil and nontrinity songs to be accepted as main piece in concert circles. Remember MS was shunned by MA (or was it the otherway around (Ramraj corrct me ) for singing Tamil (as well as non Trinity) songs. If asked to sing Tamil songs they would say 'athu namakku paaDam illai'. OVK was definitely in obscurity until NKB brought him to the attention of MA with a huge fight. Many die-hards even refused to believe that there was a person called OVK (reminds me of the recent claim by kalaignar that Rama does not exist!). Incidentally it was only due to the Royal Commision SSI started singing svAti (and only he did so and also his shishyas!). How many were singing HMB when he was alive. Did anybody sing JC during his days except in his darbar? For that matter how many sang Thyagaraja when he was alive other than his sishyas (lucky for us!). Hence it is not a mystery stalwarts did not sing OVK during their time. Knowing more about him it is incumbent on our 'modern' performers to change the History of CM!
) for singing Tamil (as well as non Trinity) songs. If asked to sing Tamil songs they would say 'athu namakku paaDam illai'. OVK was definitely in obscurity until NKB brought him to the attention of MA with a huge fight. Many die-hards even refused to believe that there was a person called OVK (reminds me of the recent claim by kalaignar that Rama does not exist!). Incidentally it was only due to the Royal Commision SSI started singing svAti (and only he did so and also his shishyas!). How many were singing HMB when he was alive. Did anybody sing JC during his days except in his darbar? For that matter how many sang Thyagaraja when he was alive other than his sishyas (lucky for us!). Hence it is not a mystery stalwarts did not sing OVK during their time. Knowing more about him it is incumbent on our 'modern' performers to change the History of CM!-
vasya10
- Posts: 101
- Joined: 26 Mar 2005, 22:32
Can anyone let know what the title of the book and where is it available in Bengaluru/Chennai ?
I feel its the mind that is the culprit (yet again), with the (perhaps natural) inclination to simplify things by labeling or classifying the greatness like Music Trinity, Tamil Trinity. Im pretty sure in future we shall have Modern Trinity, 21st century trinities and even "Trinity of Trinities". As long as the mind perceives complexity, the attempt to classify will be there.
Anyway, as a layman rasika, to me OVKs songs are as enjoyable as other composers. Once, upon my request in a small concert, Sri Ravikiran sang a fantastic ritigaula. I think the lyrics ran like 'Koti Koti Koti.." I forget the lyrics. The Saptaratnas are a real gem. Just like that of T/MD/SS with polishing of these kritis by various musicians they will be shining in all their radiance.
In sangeetham.com, Sri Ravikiran participated in lot of discussions about OVK. I do think current musicians have the inclination to sing obscure songs and I wish OVK's kritis also become popular soon.
I feel its the mind that is the culprit (yet again), with the (perhaps natural) inclination to simplify things by labeling or classifying the greatness like Music Trinity, Tamil Trinity. Im pretty sure in future we shall have Modern Trinity, 21st century trinities and even "Trinity of Trinities"
. As long as the mind perceives complexity, the attempt to classify will be there.Anyway, as a layman rasika, to me OVKs songs are as enjoyable as other composers. Once, upon my request in a small concert, Sri Ravikiran sang a fantastic ritigaula. I think the lyrics ran like 'Koti Koti Koti.." I forget the lyrics. The Saptaratnas are a real gem. Just like that of T/MD/SS with polishing of these kritis by various musicians they will be shining in all their radiance.
In sangeetham.com, Sri Ravikiran participated in lot of discussions about OVK. I do think current musicians have the inclination to sing obscure songs and I wish OVK's kritis also become popular soon.
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vgvindan
- Posts: 1430
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arasi
- Posts: 16873
- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
Compositions aside, if nAdam IS music (divine, to many of us), and if the swarAs speak to us of its beauty--except in the case of children singing or dancing to them (VG, you will agree on this)--I don't see any problem there. I am assuming that such songs are featured in concerts only as tukkaDA pieces. They have their own value when it comes to fine musical quality. Please note that I am NOT saying this of the sAhityA part of these songs.
Then again, there is no need to get rattled about it.
I wonder. Are there those who refuse to go to temples because of the sculptures of damsels in the halls that one passes through before one enters the sannidhis?
Then again, there is no need to get rattled about it.
I wonder. Are there those who refuse to go to temples because of the sculptures of damsels in the halls that one passes through before one enters the sannidhis?
Last edited by arasi on 22 Sep 2007, 22:12, edited 1 time in total.
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vgvindan
- Posts: 1430
- Joined: 13 Aug 2006, 10:51
I have buried my head deep into the sand. It will go away.there is no need to get rattled about it.
What about so many musical colleges? What is their role in bringing to light worthy compositions like OVK? Has there been audit of these institutions?
Last edited by vgvindan on 23 Sep 2007, 08:39, edited 1 time in total.
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jananee
- Posts: 272
- Joined: 30 Jun 2007, 12:27
With reference to why maestros did not sing OVK's kritis..i think the simple fact is many of them have been published only recently. More & more songs are being sung only in recent times because they are coming to light only recently. I think the book has addressed these questions and many other such questions.
Most of the songs were probably published with notations after the 1980s if I am not mistaken. Many of today's top artistes are singing more and more of his works.
To quote Sri Ravikiran " Venkata Kavi's works were not analysed earlier because their existence was not known. But once they came to light, thanks primarily to the late Needamangalam Krishnamurthy Bhagavathat they have been scrutinised and appreciated by legends like GN Balasubramaniam who eulogised about the composer in his article " kattil Vilainda Kasturi" for a Tamil magazine in the 1950s. SSI though he did not sing many of the compositions which came to light later clearly saw the merit of the compositions and thus made the comment.
Most of the songs were probably published with notations after the 1980s if I am not mistaken. Many of today's top artistes are singing more and more of his works.
To quote Sri Ravikiran " Venkata Kavi's works were not analysed earlier because their existence was not known. But once they came to light, thanks primarily to the late Needamangalam Krishnamurthy Bhagavathat they have been scrutinised and appreciated by legends like GN Balasubramaniam who eulogised about the composer in his article " kattil Vilainda Kasturi" for a Tamil magazine in the 1950s. SSI though he did not sing many of the compositions which came to light later clearly saw the merit of the compositions and thus made the comment.
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Ponbhairavi
- Posts: 1075
- Joined: 13 Feb 2007, 08:05
Jananee has written that : the simple fact is that many of them have been published only recently.
GNB'article is dated 1950. by that time he should have known some.Had he popularized any? as he did the THIKKU theriyada Kattil.
She has written in the last sentence:"ThoughSSI did not sing many of the compositions which came to light later..."Has he sung ANY of the composition which came to light earlier?
The fact remains that our Maestros were large hearted to shower praize on OVK ( this itself is commendable no doubt) near the fag end of their active musical career but did precious little on the stage.
GNB'article is dated 1950. by that time he should have known some.Had he popularized any? as he did the THIKKU theriyada Kattil.
She has written in the last sentence:"ThoughSSI did not sing many of the compositions which came to light later..."Has he sung ANY of the composition which came to light earlier?
The fact remains that our Maestros were large hearted to shower praize on OVK ( this itself is commendable no doubt) near the fag end of their active musical career but did precious little on the stage.