A new approach to Carnatic music

[uday_shankar]

Hi All
After a break, I tried some Carnatic music on chitravenu on the request of a veteran to post a "full Carnatic piece"... I chose the simplest possible piece to showcase the capabilites of the instrument...this is a 100 second teaser from the full recording which I will post here after I edit out the blah blah.... This is a publicly accessible Facebook link...take a look and let me know how it sounds and feels...

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_ ... =738123709

[msakella]

An excellent instrument to the people who are more shruti-sensitive if it is tuned and utilised properly with more shruti-sensitivity. msakella

[uday_shankar]

Thanks so much for the feedback Akella garu. This is my life's work ... Will post the full video on YouTube soon.

[vasanthakokilam]

Excellent Uday.

[msakella]

You did an excellent and very sensitive work and help to Karnataka music and I heartily congratulate you for this.

For music Shruti is the first importance and rhythm the second importance just like mother and father. But, most unfortunately, our musicians have been used to give the first importance to rhythm, even though it is right in some aspects only. This importance must be selected and given by an efficient and honest teacher (?) only as, just like mother, the kid starts his/her life with mother only. That is why while mother is the truth the father is the faith.

In 2006 when, on the suggestion and recommendation of my Paramagaru Dr. Shripada Pinakapani garu, I sang and demonstrated with such Shruti instrument in the Chennai Music Academy then SangitaKalanidhi commented, the instrument is very fine but it is not suitable for our Karnataka musicians. Up to some extent it is true to our musicians as they all, unfortunately, have been used to give the second importance for Shruti. msakella

[uday_shankar]

Thanks again Akella garu for your insights.

Here is the full video of the presentation

https://youtu.be/TlM4yDod2IM

[Sreeni Rajarao]

Hello Uday,

I enjoyed listening to your upload!

Congratulations and best wishes on your amazing efforts and results!

[uday_shankar]

Thanks, @vasanthakokilam and @Sreeni Rajarao !

[msakella]

Excellent demonstration. This helps any musician who is super sensitive in Shruti-sense.

As per one stalwart musician the Sadharana-gandhara, Shuddha-madhyama and Kashiki-nishada are given ‘Sampradaya-gamaka’ with their special view but, as usual, this has been mis-used since more than 60 years.

Gamaka is just like salt and its level shouldn’t be either less or more but precise. Unless our musicians start even now to use this kind of instruments and become more sensitive in Shruti sense it is not that easy to overcome this. Even though there are logical ways to do this I don’t think anybody prefers to follow them now as they all have already become immune for the off-sense. msakella

[uday_shankar]

Thanks again @msakella garu!

One request...can I quote your comments about chitravenu on my website which has been sitting idle for the past many years ? It may take me many months to get somebody to help me develop it, this is just an advance request.

It valuable to include comments from a stalwart veteran musician such as yourself on my website. While a lot of stalwart Hindustani musicians have been very enthusiastic about my efforts, Carnatic stalwarts have been quite aloof and indifferent , although younger Carnatic artists have been more open-minded and enthusiastic.

[uday_shankar]

Here's a clip from 2 years ago, highlighting the virtuosic capabilities of chitravenu (and me ! haha)

https://youtu.be/kIaeKNX2_As

[msakella]

I have seen your post even in the morning itself but feeling extremely unhappy of the contents I couldn’t reply immediately.

You can do as you like, dear.

We are born in this country, we belong to this soil, all these people are our people and we people always must strive hard for the betterment of our country, our soil and our people irrespective of their response whatever. With that kind of bent of mind only me too did so many things but with the most minimum response or nil at all.

It looks northern people are more devotional, more sensitive and more responsive too than many of our southerners. It seems their music with more pure notes is making them like this. Our Karnataka music also could be enjoyed by south Indians only as we all are habituated to listen to this kind of music. That is why at the end of their concerts our people have always been used to sing their music items with pure notes which is more soothing. In the same manner our southerners can very well enjoy their music with pure notes and northerners cannot enjoy our notes filled with more un-soothing Gamakas. All such things must be discussed at length for betterment and as our musicians are more traditional-minded, highly egoistic and highly selfish nobody tries to discuss such sensitive things and do the needful.

Right from my childhood, as I have fully been blessed in all respects by the Almighty and expects nothing from this society, I am able to do things on my own and boldly write even these few things, at the least, here in this post. msakella

[msakella]

Your above clip is very excellent and no words to speak.

Your remarkable contribution must change the attitude of our South Indian musicians and teachers too.

Many of our people mostly prefer either to turn a blind eye or a deaf ear but not to respond either positively or even negatively. As many of them are mostly insensitive in Shruti-sense you need not bother about their response of any nature.

Had I been in my younger age I would certainly have learnt this divine instrument with pleasure. msakella

[uday_shankar]

@msakella garu, thank you again for your kind remarks and encouragement. I will take that as a blessing and continue to proceed as usual with my investigations and development . I will keep you posted as I make more progress on all fronts !

[thenpaanan]

In 2006 when, on the suggestion and recommendation of my Paramagaru Dr. Shripada Pinakapani garu, I sang and demonstrated with such Shruti instrument in the Chennai Music Academy then SangitaKalanidhi commented, the instrument is very fine but it is not suitable for our Karnataka musicians. Up to some extent it is true to our musicians as they all, unfortunately, have been used to give the second importance for Shruti. msakella

I have received similar comments personally. Most notably I have been told multiple times that my tambura sruthi was too loud and that I needed to lower the volume (in fact, it once even happened in the middle of a performance). I thought that perhaps my voice was not up to the challenge of singing with a loud tambura. But when I listened to the recording later I realized that the audience simply did not like the loud tambura. It seems a cultural aspect of Carnatic music that we seem to prefer a soft tambura audible only to the performers, whereas in Hindustani the tambura is very loud and ambience-creating for the audience. I have not been able to figure out the reasons.

-T

[thenpaanan]

An excellent instrument to the people who are more shruti-sensitive if it is tuned and utilised properly with more shruti-sensitivity. msakella

Absolutely agree. The sound of the instrument is very delightful and sensitive. To Sarma garu's point, it gives the perception that it is more finely in pitch that the flute alone does. I wonder why that is so. Is it the combination of two different instrument signatures (meaning even though the flute and the strings are both tuned to the same pitch, they resonate with different balance)? I do not get the same sensation of sruthi-alignment in a concert with flute and violin, for example.

Full credit to Uday Shankar, I like the sound of the instrument very much and in the few recordings that I have watched/listened to, it has been played with great sensitivity.

-T

[Nick H]

I have received similar comments personally. Most notably I have been told multiple times that my tambura sruthi was too loud and that I needed to lower the volume (in fact, it once even happened in the middle of a performance). I thought that perhaps my voice was not up to the challenge of singing with a loud tambura. But when I listened to the recording later I realized that the audience simply did not like the loud tambura. It seems a cultural aspect of Carnatic music that we seem to prefer a soft tambura audible only to the performers, whereas in Hindustani the tambura is very loud and ambience-creating for the audience. I have not been able to figure out the reasons.

With respect, do please remember that what the audience hears as the concert goes on is not what you hear on stage, nor what you hear on a recording. With regard to what they audience hears, they are almost certainly right, because it is their experience at that time. We are regularly caused great discomfort because one or more musicians think they can dictate the house volume and balance from where they sit, not in the house, but on the stage.

Yes, I have heard over-bearing sruti boxes (but I don't think I ever heard an overloud tambura, usually because I can't hear it at all!). I have also seen someone set their sruti box to what they would have considered their usual level --- except it was a micless concert and, yes, their voice (actually a good, strong one) was hard to hear.

But this is one of my hobby horses, is a regular topic for debate, and is nothing to do with Uday having both developed and mastered that amazing instrument. Excuse the intrusion

[msakella]

Yes, I agree with our brother-member, Nick H. The view of the audience is more important in a public concert than all others.

I have participated in hundreds of concerts as a Violin accompanist or Soloist or very few times as a Vocalist and Mridangist too and in all Karnataka music concerts the sound of the Shruti-instrument is very less audible to the audience. Why??? I feel sorry to express it here as many of the performers may dislike it. However, in the interest of our music and particularly the present music students, who are more open than the old students, it helps them a lot I shall give it here.
As per my experience it is very important to note that the volume of the Shruti instrument must be more audible not only to the audience but also to the main artist to bring out a very shruti-sensitive and soothing music.

When in my demonstration along with my Shruti-instrument in the Chennai Music Academy in 2006 I sang some select Ragas along with the respective consonant pure notes of the respective Ragas in the instrument and with the needed Gamakas it was not received properly by the President as all our Karnataka musicians have always been used all the Gamakas with more traditional-view but not logical-view. Logical view always brings out the truth. msakella

[uday_shankar]

I do not get the same sensation of sruthi-alignment in a concert with flute and violin, for example.

There is such a thing as operator error. Having said that, I have certainly made shruti one of my life's centerpieces, both from a sensual/aural and scientific perspective.

In general, violinists of many schools have high degree of precision, because otherwise the violin will sound awful. But some schools are better than others, for example MSG of course, Dwaram garu, and of course the violin trio...L Subramaniam etc. So when there is a misalignment between flute and violin, it is usually a flute problem. There are some serious technical challenges with flute, particularly 5 kattai (G).


The aadhara shadja of chitravenu can be anything within a range, but the most optimal in my reckoning at G, which is what I have chosen for this recording. There are other recordings online with D and also F I think. But that doesn't tell the whole story. The absolute frequencies of each octave is best expressed as a piano octave number. From that numbering scheme, the chitravenu's aadhara shadja is G4 (~392Hz) and the mel-sa is G5. That's a whole octave lower than the Mali shruti ( B N Suresh, S P Natarajan, J B Shruti Sagar, etc) 5 kattai flute where the aadhara is at G5 and the mel sa is at G6. It is easier to align with shruti at G4 than G5, for reasons I'll explain below. Of course chitravenu is still harder for other reasons explained in the video link below. Back to topic, in the western sense, the G5 Mali flute is in the piccolo range. There is a good discussion about absolute pitches in this thread:

viewtopic.php?t=20697

Absolute frequencies are very poorly understood in CM circles.

There is a phenomenon well-documented in piano acoustics known as octave stretching where the ear wants to hear a slightly higher pitch than the true one as we go higher, to G6 and beyond. Pianos are tuned according to the Railsback curve which can be looked up. In my experience, something similar happens in the flute/piccolo world and it is significantly harder to align to shruti with the 5 kattai flute. Just a few semtones lower, the 2.5 kattai flute is much more shruti friendly. For that and many other reasons, most flautists have shifted to 2.5. But those that have stuck to 5 kattais need to put more work into staying shruti aligned.

One may notice that Pt. Hariprasad Chaurasia is extremely shruti aligned. This certainly his great sensitivity, the culture of shruti sensitivity in HM, but it is also the absolute range. It is very easy to give the impression of shruti shuddham at a flute aadhara shadja of D4, which is what he uses these day. That's 1.5 octaves below the Mali Aadhara shadja. Pt. Chaurasia sometimes picks up a very small flute to play some folkish dhun and the preternatural shruti shuddham goes out the window and it hardly matters. It's a folkish tune and only a rough tunefulness is enough.. Only the folkish bhavam matters. So context is important.

I hope that answers some of the questions. I have also posted an unlisted video (maybe I'll make it public don't know) which is a continuation of my previous video, where I talk about some of the technical challenges of chtravenu, particulary about shruti:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-P5S0KojzhU

[msakella]

Excellent demonstration indeed. I am not that educated like you people and can follow up to some extent. More over my aims are also different. However, I love this instrument a lot but cannot try to learn at this old age. msakella

[uday_shankar]

Excellent demonstration indeed. I am not that educated like you people and can follow up to some extent. More over my aims are also different. However, I love this instrument a lot but cannot try to learn at this old age. msakella

@msakella garu, thanks again for your kind words. I will be more than happy to travel to your place to do a personal demo of this instrument and get your blessings in person ! Unfortunately I don't have another prototype, especially of the string portion, to leave you with an instrument; otherwise would have gladly left behind one for you!

[msakella]

I feel very happy to see your demo in person. But, having become exhausted till now in many ways, I may be able to enjoy your demo but as I am not able to concentrate upon any new thing I cannot learn anything from your demo at all at this old age. I am satisfied having gone through your youtube video, that’s enough. msakella

[thenpaanan]

@uday_shankar I just watched one of your demos where you say that you have no "pedagogical training in any genre". It is even more astounding to me that you are able to demonstrate such subtleties in Carnatic music (I cannot speak with any authority about other genres) with such clarity and facility in spite of this. I learn new things from each of your demos that I had not known or observed previously.

Congratulations seem superfluous. I would rather say thank you and may your (musical) tribe increase!

-T

[uday_shankar]

in spite of this.

If there is anything useful in what I say, it must be not "in spite of this" but "because of this"! I approach anything without any pre-conceived notions, completely forensically, just using my senses and whatever else additional reasoning power as well as a deep motivation and sense of mystery about life, nature, etc... There can be an endless list of "in spite of this"... the only thing I can claim to have any pedagogical training is basic science and math and Electrical Engineering and some Physics.

This is not a boast but perhaps useful for anybody else embarking on new trails... the need to pick up whatever knowledge, skills, insight along the way. The one resource I absolutely could not have done without in this journey, perhaps helped accelerate years of my effort, is the internet. So "in spite of" not having any training in mechanical engineering, acoustics and vibration engineering, precision machine shop skills, material science, guitar science, sound board luthier insights, luthier skills, very deep research into tuning systems of the world, Hindustani music nuances, Carnatic music nuances, western music nuances, jazz nuances, patent writing, patent reviewing, etc etc I blunder along winging it. And it is working out !

About the tuning of the strings... there are 34 strings, and multiple versions of shadja and panchama across the string box, and they all have to tuned to within a cent or two or the whole thing will sound totally cacophonic. I am able to do that for any raga in under 5 minutes. I come up with the ideal shruti ratios for any given raga on an ad hoc basis, but have a definite methodology and sequence to do it, I can do all this "in spite of" no training. Conversely, do you frankly think any Carnatic musician is capable of "training" somebody to do this, leave alone have the skills himself/herself ?

The one lifelong inborn "skill" I have had could be a precise ear for pitch as well as the ability to extract musical sounds from all kinds of objects. I was raised by extremely enlightened parents who, in spite of being tambrahms, didn't think it was important to "nurture" my seemingly precocous "talents" as a child but rather let me grow up free, happy and unburdened, investigating things at my own will and fancy. So grateful !

Chitravenu has no purpose, no loftly goal, other than to satisfy my curiosity !

[arasi]

Uday,
Your "merely satisfying your curiosity" has come a long way today. Some of us heard you in person several years ago demonstrating your invention. We were impressed. You have lived with Chitra Venu hence with such involvement. Your investing yourself in it shows. Your singing seriously along with it (not humming) made it even more appealing. You are a refined one-man-band in that the kuzhaivu element in the music comes out-especially in the niraval. The swara passage is so lively and pleasant. In all, a complete, full-fledged number.Your focused mind, hard work and artistic capabilities make it all happen...
Hearty good wishes for more musical strides...

[uday_shankar]

Uday,
Your "merely satisfying your curiosity" has come a long way today. Some of us heard you in person several years ago demonstrating your invention. We were impressed. You have lived with Chitra Venu hence with such involvement. Your investing yourself in it shows. Your singing seriously along with it (not humming) made it even more appealing. You are a refined one-man-band in that the kuzhaivu element in the music comes out-especially in the niraval. The swara passage is so lively and pleasant. In all, a complete, full-fledged number.Your focused mind, hard work and artistic capabilities make it all happen...
Hearty good wishes for more musical strides...

Arasi, so good to hear from you ! Thanks for watching my video. Thanks much for all the good wishes and encouragement through the years ! I never give up !

[rajeshnat]

@uday_shankar
I heard the play , perhaps if it is say late 1970s or 1980s you can be picked up as a special effect instrument for any of the great melodies that illayaraja sir tuned . The tone is so nice, it is bit of flute , bit of guitar like some thing quite original not heard that yet feeling remains. Having said that

1. Please put clips where you have a quality percussionist playing along with you. At times just without rhythm it is just difficult to just concentrate on your output for a longer time.

2. Musicians like say Kadri Gopalnath had a huge lift after AR Rehman picked him up in film duet and externalised . You need far more opening and marketing muscle so that more ears hear it .

3. If #2 happens it is great plan A . HOw about a plan B , hope some prodigy like Mandolin Srinivas calibre joins you as sishya , a great practioning sishya is key .

[uday_shankar]

Thanks @rajeshnat . Your suggestions are good and I've been thinking along those lines too. As for percussive support, as we graduate from "demo" to "concert" that will automatically happen. I am of the feeling that I will provide more rhythm as well as melodic support with the strings . There is a corner of my mind hoping it can be a totally "standaline" instrument. What you may be missing is the constant percussive action of a mridangam, say.

[Nick H]

... I blunder along winging it. And it is working out !

We should have a big Thumbs-Up smiley!

You are a refined one-man-band

One-Man-Bananda Uday

[thenpaanan]

in spite of this.

If there is anything useful in what I say, it must be not "in spite of this" but "because of this"! I approach anything without any pre-conceived notions, completely forensically, just using my senses and whatever else additional reasoning power as well as a deep motivation and sense of mystery about life, nature, etc... There can be an endless list of "in spite of this"... the only thing I can claim to have any pedagogical training is basic science and math and Electrical Engineering and some Physics.

I stand well-corrected. I should definitely have said "because of this" -- lack of baggage/prejudice is an important factor, perhaps even the most important factor, in progressing knowledge in well-studied areas.

Chitravenu has no purpose, no loftly goal, other than to satisfy my curiosity !

Some of the best technologies in mankind's history have come from this curiosity.

-T

[uday_shankar]

Here's an old attempt to play a snippet of the famous Jazz piece Take 5 on chitravenu, horrendously difficult to play chromatic staccato passages, for fun. The other thing is that one can accompany oneself on rhythm (Take 5 is basically Khanda chappu, so no great challenge for Indian music!), although developing independent limb action is a challenge at every stage and has to be nudged in small doses

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jfVL_NYba0

[msakella]

In fact this is not a new approach to Carnatic music itself, but only an introduction of a new combination of music-instruments for performing our music.

Unfortunately, in our music, everywhere, only the parasitical performers (among which I was also one of that bad lot under the guise of an efficient teacher for many years) who have always been looting the society in turn without honestly or efficiently giving the needed to the innocent kids within a minimum period of training have always been given the top priority in many aspects and, very sadly, the highly needed, talented, and respectful teachers truly and truthfully serving the society have always been given the last seat.

if the truly talented teachers are properly encouraged every time in a proper manner they can do the real service to our society inventing such excellent instruments and also bringing out simultaneously both talented teachers and performers from their 'logical, time-bound and result-oriented'system of training. msakella