Tyagaraja-Jazz Suite?

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 25 Jun 2007, 00:10

Read on:
http://www.hindu.com/fr/2007/06/22/stor ... 380400.htm

I was not convinced!
BTW, I am still trying to understand the reason for choosing the 3 pictures for this article. Anyone care to hazard a guess?

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 25 Jun 2007, 07:35

The pictures tell a story, don't they? I would stick to the first one any day!

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 25 Jun 2007, 12:07

I thought lengthy alaapanas/RTPs were pretty much the order of the day in Thyagaraja's time. In fact there is this story about his alaapana lighting up a lamp in his first public performance so would that be an innovation. I also understand the violin was introduced by a contemporary of Thyagaraja although he may possibly not have been aware of it.

Who is the lady in the 3rd picture BTW?

bhaktha · Post by **bhaktha** » 25 Jun 2007, 12:28

Did not St. Thyagarajar sing devagAndhArI alapanai for 9 days at a stretch? Heard this somewhere...could be wrong. But even otherwise, as Vijay says, long alapanais were in vogue during his time...The violin IIMR, was introduced by Shri Baluswami Dikshitar in the maharaja's court and it was he who first adapted the western instrument to suit the karnatak style of playing. And BS was a contemporary of St Thyagarajar.
-bhaktha

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 25 Jun 2007, 13:59

Not terribly impressed by the article.... too much stating the obvious, i guess.

Nothing stands still (although some of wish that some things would, of course), especially if it is a performance art.

Living people will make small changes... sometimes even without noticing it, maybe... sometimes, even mistakes get adopted in orthodoxy!

Whether or not innovation becomes tradition depends on its acceptance by performers/audience.

So whether or not that innovation is acceptible --- is in our very own hands!

But imagine... Someone starts with a carnatic concert including drumkit, it draws the youngsters, sabha secretaries get the idea that this is how to sell tickets....

Oh dear, what a horrible thought, eh?

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 25 Jun 2007, 14:01

Oh, and I forgot to include my first thought in my post....

Tyagaraja and Beethoven are both among the funkiest composers I've heard.

Jazz? One might say that they started it!!!!

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 06 Jul 2007, 20:20

Follow-ups:
http://www.hindu.com/fr/2007/07/06/stor ... 120300.htm

http://www.hindu.com/fr/2007/07/06/stor ... 360500.htm

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 07 Jul 2007, 11:22

One side point from the second link...

Western music regards its classical pieces as sacrosanct. Far from it! many pop songs have been composed to melodies from classical pieces, just as there have been orchestral arrangements of modern songs.

There are purists in every culture, but I think Western music is less compartmentalised in this respect.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 07 Jul 2007, 17:29

When you think about it, there isn't anything 'that' new in any form of art (even life, for that matter)! New forms, new ways of looking at things, new generations, new inventions, yes, but everything springs from what has been there already. Crossovers too from various cultures, intentionally and unintentionally.
If you think your genre is entirely original (examples: film music cannot claim to be innovative and non classical when you can very well see that a film song stems from an old rAgA or mix of rAgAs. Pop music cannot get away from the old classical in western music as well). In modern times we have crossover music (I am tired of the word 'fusion' which has been over used and has confused us no end). Was just humming 'Norwegian Woods'. bhAgESri! And the umpteen mOhanams which you can recognize in a song from any part of th world--country music, chinese...

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 07 Jul 2007, 21:54

I was quite intrigued by Vijayalakshmi Subramanian's rejoinder to the original article - and I had not read the original at that time. Thanks for the link.

I still don't see why it bothered her so much. Her response starts off very well but she gets lost in indignation towards the latter half and doesn't seem to indicate what exactly she disagrees with in the original article. May be just the flippant attitude of the author that leaks thru' the lines.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 22 Jul 2007, 10:19

Here is the author V. Ramakrishnan's rebuttal!
http://www.hindu.com/fr/2007/07/20/stor ... 690600.htm
I am still not convinced...but that's me. I sympathise with Smt. Subramaniam's view to an extent, because, garlic bread, pizza, cokes and cell phone ringtones are here to stay and offer more scope to capture an audience than the exclusive jazz suite in a high-falutin music hall!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 22 Jul 2007, 12:56

It is an interesting sequence of articles. The article seems to be more about the applicability of fusion based innovation rather than specifically about fusing CM and Jazz, the article title notwithstanding. This is not a new thing and it has been attempted a lot. The reason why it is mainly done overseas rather than India is quite straightforward: Jazz fanbase is quite accepting of experimentation and broadening of the boundaries ( but not dilution in quality ). Even in that context such cross genre attempts are not huge since Jazz itself is stuck forever in the 3% marketshare.

Having said all that, one thing needs to be pointed out. Though improvisation is a common element in CM and Jazz, they are of different nature. First vocal jazz and instrumental jazz are quite different things. So it may be fruitful to consider the two combinations: CM & vocal jazz and CM & instrumental jazz. Let us consider the latter case first. The improvisation in instrumental jazz and CM improvisation are quite different: In CM it is improvisation on the melody whereas instrumental jazz thrives on improvisation on harmony for the most part. I am not qualified to say it is impossible but just simply because both CM and Jazz are improvisational art forms does not mean they can be fused together. The author of the Hindu article seems to believe that quite naively.

Vocal jazz and CM combination is something that is worth considering. Consider Jazz scat singing, it basically came about as a way for vocalists to imitate what the instrumentalists are playing but without having to frame that melody in words ( or bound by the words ). It is now a recognized vocal improvisational style set to a rhythm. We obviously have something similar in CM in terms of swara singing. I can easily visualize a CM and Vocal Jazz jugalbandi where kalpanaswarams and scat singing are juxtaposed. Shankarabaranam and Keeravani ( and their janyas ) would be easy choices at first, having straight equivalents in the Major and Harmonic Minor scales.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 22 Jul 2007, 14:18

vasanthakokilam wrote:just simply because both CM and Jazz are improvisational art forms does not mean they can be fused together.

I agree - I don't find any common spaces worth exploring in Jazz and CM - they come across, at least to a lay listener like myself, as fundamentally different musical forms. OTOH, HM-CM jugalbandis which rest on a common theoretical platform seem to make more sense.

It is one thing to adopt practices/concepts from other musical forms (introduction of the violin for example) and quite another to mangle a millenia-old art form, rich in grammar, with mindless ventures into fusion although I suppose there is no harm with the odd experiment even if it yields nothing but trash. If the trickle turns into a ride, however, (in HM it is already the norm for young musicians to devote more time to fusion than traditional music - India Today did a cover on this trend), we all have a lot to worry about.

In this context, it is perhaps Jazz which stands to benefit more from any cross-pollination - perhaps the order and formalism of creative exploration in Indian classical music as well as the richness of its scales can contribute substantially to jazz. Of course, I am presupposing that these elements do not already exist in jazz.

VK, I know next to nothing about scat but there was this guy called Scatman John who used to do the rounds on MTV a decade back...if that gentleman were ever to share the stage with a carnatic musician, the results would be, to put it very very mildly, interesting!

As an aside, one wonders why the Hindu thinks it necessary to allocate so much print-space to this author, especially when they have a legion of vidwans and vidushis writing for them. He has held forth on the merits of fusion over three articles without coming up with anything more substantial than "why not" or the odd reference to his flawed notions of history (no alaapanas in Thyagaraja's time, MD invented the violin etc. etc.). Perhaps the point of his articles is precisely to draw the Vijaylakshmi Subramanians into a verbal duel. But perhaps CM, like all art forms, could do with the odd maverick/contrarian...

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 22 Jul 2007, 22:16

I am wondering if it has all got to do with the new 'look' and tone of Hindu articles on CM (plus attractive photographs--vINA Jayanthi and violin Kumaresh playfully tapping each other on the head with miniature models of a vINA and violin bow was charming!).
On the one hand, this trend brings CM home (hopefully) to the younger generation. Good. But to bring the youth's fleeting food fads and borrowed cultural expressions into CM to attract them might make CM the fad for a very short time and make it fade away from their minds when a new fad arrives. Not only that. It would bring CM down with it. To bring the young into the temples, imagine giving pizza prasAdam! No. That is not the way to go about it.
I am coming back to the same refrain. Like other values and love for richness in culture, it all starts at home. No matter how modernized a society, a family with good values and love for the arts is enough incentive for a youngster. You may buy a particular brand of product once because they offer a 'free something you like' with it. You would soon switch to another one because it appeals to you more, your friends like it, or because their free offer is more attractive!
Coming back to the Hindu articles: yes, with interesting photographs, some are refreshing, others are fluff. If the fluff becomes the regular thing, there is the danger of losing the real thing (CM). By the way, some students of CM who are born into pizza and jean culture, know nothing much of their parent's culture, temples, and climate of their homeland do learn and also perform in India admirably (there are reviews of Ranjana Swaminathan accompaying CM artistes in Chennai).
We can make CM more attractive and less intimidating to the youth, definitely. However, we don't have to 'sell' it to them in an unpalatable manner...

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 22 Jul 2007, 22:20

Vijay,
VK is thinking of the Ella Fitzgerald kind of scat--not the MTV kind?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 22 Jul 2007, 22:26

Yes that is right, Arasi and here is an example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbL9vr4Q2LU

Once you hear it, it will be obvious that you need to peel of couple of layers of jazz-specificity to see some resemblance to kalpanaswaram singing ( and possibly kanakku oriented variety ), thanam and may be thillana. Even then, bringing them together aesthetically and tastefully requires some good musical minds. In fact, IMHO, the acid test is the resulting form sounds quite different from the two fused parts but still sounds great and appeals to a good subset of the listener-base of both systems and bring in new listeners who are currently in the periphery.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 23 Jul 2007, 03:03

I think a good jazz musician/group can take the Thyagaraja's pancharathna kritis and adapt them to the jazz style and make it really mind blowing. So I am with M.V.Ramakrishnan on this one.

jyestha07 · Post by **jyestha07** » 23 Jul 2007, 12:47

I think the whole point is not against fusion per se but dragging Thyagaraja into it........... and whats wrong with eating pizza and garlic bread and enjoying carnatic music? thats the whole point of fusion, I would think. Only have things that are compatible together. Mr. MVR seems to miss the point time and again. And as someone here pointed out, why does the hindu allocate so much space to such articles?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 23 Jul 2007, 13:08

Right, why drag the poor pizza and garlic bread into this?

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 23 Jul 2007, 19:51

jyestha07... i think you have it all wrong.

1. Why should Thyagaraja be excluded from creative pursuits like fusion? Why do you want to give him the "bye" on this? Do you think his work needs to be "protected"?

2. I think it was more "popcorn and potato chips" rather than "pizza and garlic bread", the non-nutritious fast food symbolizing lack of both taste and forethought

3. The whole point of fusion is creatively synthesize good ideas - putting M&M's on top of hot fudge doesn't count

4. In spite of MVR hitting the nail on the head, it appears that people are missing the point. So may be Hindu hopes that publishing more of these articles will help some re-evaluate their priorities.

jyestha07 · Post by **jyestha07** » 25 Jul 2007, 11:24

Sureshvv
I appreciate your point. Have you heard of this lady Suseela Raman who won some award from BBC for her debut work? It was absolute 'kolai' of Thyagaraja Kritis.........Pl listen to it once and you'll get my drift! In fact, Mrs.YGP had written a stinker to the Hindu about her contorting Mantras...
I have heard brilliant orchestration of Mohanam and Madhyamavati played by the Zew Zealand Philharmonic orchestra under Dr.LS and it was mind blowing. It was awesome to see the whole orchestra playing our korvais. I am all for that kind of stuff. Not half baked attempts that do end up mutilating kritis.
Re the pizza and garlic bread, its been picked up from an article on VS's website by MVR... I merely quoted that. And to my mind, that is true fusion...change with the times in things that are allowed to change. One can't start singing Vathapi in Todi, can one, for that?:)

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 25 Jul 2007, 13:55

I think many members here have listened to Suseela Raman once --- and found it to be more than enough! I don't necessarily share their viewpoint that she sings religious music in a way that is inappropriate (but that's probably just because I don't understand the language), and like her voice. Her music may encourage one or two to listen to the 'real stuff'.

I haven't heard the LS orchestral arrangement referred to --- but I've never been keen on orchestral arrangements, even of Western pop songs.

Western music is as competitive a career as in any art --- orchestra musicians may appear undistinguished against soloists, but nobody gets to be an major-orchestra musician without being very highly competent. Put the notation in front of them and they'll play it!

But, rather like the office notice, Miracles performed daily; the impossible takes a little longer --- perhaps the orchestra might take a little longer to take on board gamaka

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 27 Jul 2007, 22:59

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSV99sRK3lc

endarO mahAnubhAvulu ensemble with vINa, guitAr, drums etc..

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 29 Jul 2007, 01:02

Here is something that is related to this topic... Suba does something close to the Jazz scat singing but in the CM mould for a few minutes in the middle of this song. This is close to how I imagined the CM style jazz scat singing would be.

Chalanata Blues
Description: Composed by Suba Sankaran, this song was commissioned by Harbourfront Centre, Toronto, and supported by the Canada Council

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fusea ... =817179825

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 29 Jul 2007, 02:22

VK,
Thanks!

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 29 Jul 2007, 03:02

wow... Suba Sankaran and autorikshaw sound really great! Enjoyed the Ganamurthe video also... Definitely someone to watch out for... Is this Vidwan Trichy Sankaran's daughter?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 29 Jul 2007, 10:51

Is this Vidwan Trichy Sankaran's daughter?

Yes. More about her and her work at her myspace page: http://www.myspace.com/subasankaran

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 29 Jul 2007, 13:07

Must have sounded good to people who are familiar with Jazz but I'm afraid I couldn't really relate to it - I admit that this may be my own shortcoming.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 28 Sep 2007, 01:16

An article about the fusion master John McLaughlin

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070927/mus ... zC2v4E1vAI

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 28 Sep 2007, 08:36

Thank you, VK.
Liked reading it as much as McLaughlin likes his miLagAip poDi!

babaji · Post by **babaji** » 28 Sep 2007, 09:24

i have seen many jazz musicians from ethnc backgrounds as well as the graduates of music schools such as trinity e.t.c in my time and my time before yet still nobody was able to give a fusion properly of jazz with thyagaraja.

i believe the only person who fused classical with thyagaraja perfectly was isaignani ilayaraja album:how to name it song:tulasi dala.
what beauty how beautiful if any western classical musician listens to this.he will drop his instrument and start learning carnatic classical music.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 28 Sep 2007, 09:35

VK,
I would have second thoughts about bringing Tyagaraja to this thread!

babaji · Post by **babaji** » 04 Oct 2007, 09:37

nobody's brnging thyagaiyer here he's still in samadhi in thiruvaiyaru.we are only bringing his name so that this forum is blessed by his name.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 04 Oct 2007, 09:57

babaji,
I did not convey what I meant, I realize. Like you, I feel too that it is better if we think of him always on this forum!

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 04 Oct 2007, 10:37

babaji,
Indeed, thyagaiyar is in samadhi only and that too as a stone - he will not be able to 'relish' the jazz - what a pity!!:(

And what a 'isai jnAni' Ilaya Raja is who would loot the public by horrendously rendering the holy Tiruvachakam and offer a diamond studded makuTa to Mookambika costing Rs. 3 crores!! - a bribe to the God?

babaji · Post by **babaji** » 08 Oct 2007, 21:13

hahahaha well well well i see.but i don't find that in anyway wrong atleast he gave it to god.there is one person who takes deepaaradhana everymorning gets crores of money and keeps it with himself.what can we call people like them.

babaji · Post by **babaji** » 12 Oct 2007, 10:13

http://www.vidyamusic.com/

apt group for discussion