TMK on Art

[sureshvv]

http://theaalaap.com/site/theqs/TMKrishna

May be shankarank can explain in simple terms for the rest of us

[Ranganayaki]

May be shankarank can explain in simple terms for the rest of us

[shankarank]

Are you guys saying this is as simple as it can get? Telling it like it is? Nothing to argue with?

[sureshvv]

TMK has a problem with treating music as a way to feel good by/and making the audience feel good.

[sankark]

Not withstanding a bit of narcissism & generally convoluted sentence construction (did Jordan Peterson train under TMK ), TMK brings certain valid points.

Isn’t doing this akin to what some people accuse you of – “force-fitting art that is not natural to a certain context”?

Why do Carnatic musicians go and sing to international audiences in Europe in venues like Churches? Why did the great M S Subbulakshmi sing at the Carnegie hall or at the United Nations? Why does Zubin Mehta’s orchestra perform in India? Is all of this culturally natural to the context of those spaces or people? And all of us socio-culturally entitled individuals swarm to such events. Were not all the delegates at the UN forced to listen to this alien music? But, we celebrate that as a landmark event.

And is willing to experiment, question himself.

Are you saying you will make students learn everything as the essence of the art form and then gradually reveal the scaffolding?

Yes. They have to learn everything and then question and figure out what is the essence, and what is the scaffolding. There will be grey areas. I am still not sure about many things. For example, I very strongly believe that tanam singing cannot be structured in a tight talam structure. But now I am looking at it differently - does tanam with a rhythmic structure have a place, if can we curate it differently? I am clear that they have to be seen as two ideas. The tanam sans tala has an integrity that cannot be breeched. If I am to find a way of giving tanam a place within tala, it has to have a clear aesthetic purpose.

And referring to his better half as Musician SS. That's just great - to me it gives the sense that she is considered first and foremost as a musician; fitting just right the context.

[sureshvv]

The answer is simple.

In order to showcase our music and let the world know what we have nurtured and developed over generations.

I don't see anything wrong with this per se. Or with TMK performing at the beach.

If only he could answer this in a thought out mature way rather than raise some equally bogus counter questions

As a Guru, I have to admit he is an unqualified success! Seems to have transmitted good knowledge and musical values.

[sankark]

sureshvv,

Those who find the former great examples of cultural exchange but feel that experiments such as the Urur Olcott Kuppam Vizha as forced, are in my mind casteist.

There you go. *I* don't think he is against interactions and cross pollination of ideas.

[RSR]

About the interview.. Somewhere around the fourth question-answer, he says that music is not related to religious feeling....and then says the trinity were soaked in it! what is he trying to convey?

[MadhavRayaprolu]

About the interview.. Somewhere around the fourth question-answer, he says that music is not related to religious feeling....and then says the trinity were soaked in it! what is he trying to convey?

TMK makes this point often in interviews. That religious feeling is not core to Carnatic music. But it naturally gets added that on if that is the cultural context of the artist/composer/rasika. In other words, the Trinity were religious people, so the lyrics of their music were naturally religious. In the same way that a nationalist would write patriotic songs. But the essence of their work is devoid of religious feeling. A non religious person derives nearly the same joy from their works as religious people.

[RSR]

MadhavRayaprolu »

TMK makes this point often in interviews. That religious feeling is not core to Carnatic music. But it naturally gets added that on if that is the cultural context of the artist/composer/rasika. In other words, the Trinity were religious people, so the lyrics of their music were naturally religious. In the same way that a nationalist would write patriotic songs. But the essence of their work is devoid of religious feeling. A non religious person derives nearly the same joy from their works as religious people.

Thank you. I get it. but the wording in his reply was not as clear as you have put it... That is what I meant .
His stand is very well known. My opinion is that if we listen to the kruthis in instruments or even better, studio orchestartaion, the real essence comes through. Neither lyrics, nor their meaning make any difference. It could then be anything, religious, ( of any religion) , romantic or nationalistic.. but not when a vocalist renders it.

[MadhavRayaprolu]

My opinion is that if we listen to the kruthis in instruments or even better, studio orchestartaion, the real essence comes through.

That’s a good reductionist way to find the essence. Although we’ll get into philosophical problems of what “essence” means. In this case, a CM instrument has cut out lyrics, syllables, vowels and all the good stuff and it still feels essentially Carnatic. Some of the obvious elements are also removed with this example - things like putting talam with hand etc. If we continue down this road, wonder what is left that is barebones to Carnatic. Ragas? Improvisation? Or is this exercise of finding the essence futile and we should think of CM in a more inclusive way with all the aesthetic elements big and small - like lyrics?

[RSR]

My opinion is that if we listen to the kruthis in instruments or even better, studio orchestartaion, the real essence comes through.

That’s a good reductionist way to find the essence. Although we’ll get into philosophical problems of what “essence” means. In this case, a CM instrument has cut out lyrics, syllables, vowels and all the good stuff and it still feels essentially Carnatic. Some of the obvious elements are also removed with this example - things like putting talam with hand etc. If we continue down this road, wonder what is left that is barebones to Carnatic. Ragas? Improvisation? Or is this exercise of finding the essence futile and we should think of CM in a more inclusive way with all the aesthetic elements big and small - like lyrics?

A good example will be raga aalaapanai by a nagaswaram vidwan. (say) T.N.Rajarathnam Pillai's toDi. No lyrics, no taaLam, .Or great solo recitals by famous players of flute like Mali, Palladam Sanjeeva Rao, veeNa experts, other nmagaswaram experts, gottuvaadhyam experts, violinists and AIR Vadhya vrundha .
Also, swaram singing without lyrics.
Ideally, all this must be audio only. No visuals. No concert videos. Something like OLD AIR concerts .
That would be ideal.
However, I have difficulty in remembering tunes only , unless they are atleast nominally attached to lyrics. So, when I hear TNR playing 'jaanaki ramanaa' , I keep singing that kruthi in my mind. though I may not know the exact words or meaning.
Nothing is lost. And we need not waste our time in controversies about the exact wordings and meanings. They are not really relevant to pure music.
But, the lyrics should be decent. We can have chakkani raaja margamu as well as a parody of 'puthup peNNin manathai' . with harmonium played with savage gusto!
Visuals are a horror. One more reason, why the old vintage records of stalwarts in both CM and HM are a delight.

[MadhavRayaprolu]

Nothing is lost. And we need not waste our time in controversies about the exact wordings and meanings. They are not really relevant to pure music.

Hmm, I wouldn’t say nothing is lost. We lose something if all CM were only instrumental music. Lyrics is debatable, but more important loss is the syllables and vowels. It is like singing krithis and manodharmam entirely in aakaram. Whether this loss cuts into the essence of CM is up for debate.

[sureshvv]

Nothing is lost. And we need not waste our time in controversies about the exact wordings and meanings. They are not really relevant to pure music.

Actually pure silence is the best! No controversies at all. Nothing else relevant. We should all try it

[RSR]

Hmm, I wouldn’t say nothing is lost. We lose something if all CM were only instrumental music. Lyrics is debatable, but more important loss is the syllables and vowels. It is like singing krithis and manodharmam entirely in aakaram. Whether this loss cuts into the essence of CM is up for debate.

Though I consider Instrumental music would lift CM above controversies about lyrics and themes, I have also admitted that human mind cannot remember pure tunes only without some lyrics. I have given example also. I would say that the lyrics being essential to support retention of the tune, it need not be very poetical or literary or even grammatically correct! . I wonder how many of the carnatic vocalists even of the golden era really knew telugu or kannada or sanskrit and understood the meaning . Was it essential? did it take away the beauty of the rendering? I dont think so.
The lyrics need not be devotional, or even poetic. Purandharadasa kruthis are poetic with rhymes but many Thyagaraja kruthis when seen in translation, do not have much to attract a non-believer or even a saivite. Dikshithar kruthis had lovely sanskrit simple and sonorous.
I will feel sad if the logic is extended to Smt.MS 's rendering of Barathy and Kalki classics. because the lyrics are so beautiful and poetic. How to analyze the song 'vadavaraiyaimatthaakki' by Smt.MS? I am at a loss for adequate theory
The lyrical beauty will be lost by any non-tamil listener , sadly! What do we lose by 'pretending' to be a vaishnavite when listening to that masterpiece? Great as Ilango Adikal's poetry is there, would it have the same impact without Smt MS singing it or without SVV 's musical composition? just thinking loud. As for social message, environmentalists will love Smt MS song in Sakunthalai in naadhanaakmakriya.
manam kuLira https://sites.google.com/site/homage2ms ... kan-kulira

[RSR]

lyrics in thamizh.. of Smt.MS song 'manam kuLira' in Sakunthalai film (1940) ..naadhanaamakriyaa?
மனம் குளிர ,உள்ளம் குளிர,இளம் காற்றில் அசைந்து
மணம் கமழும் மலர்களும்,தீங்கனிகளுமே தந்தீர் !
தினம் இன்ப நிழல் தந்தீர் !அருமை மிகு தருக்காள் !
செழும் செடிகாள் !மலர்க கொடிகாள் !
இனம்பிரியா இசைக்குயிலே !இளம் தோகை மயிலே !
இன்சுவைப் பால் எனக்களித்து ,வளர்த்த செல்வ பசுககாள்!
கனவிலும் எந்தனைப் பிரியா மான்கன்றே !
இனிமேல் கண்டு மகிழ்ந்துஉங்களுடன் கழித்திடும் நாள் என்றோ!
அந்நாள் என்றோ?