Vasantha, in another thread I noticed that you had interpreted chords for corresponding notes of Mohanam and also discussed chords used by bands. Sorry for asking the question in this thread, but how does one go about practicing to decipher chords by just listening to a song? I have enough trouble deciphering even the notes of a main melody impromptu while listening to the song. Unless I know the scale of the song I cannot translate the main melody into the notes spontaneously. With that being the case how do you people decipher tough chords from songs? Sometimes it seems impossible to even hear the chords amidst all the sounds from instruments present in the song. Especially in popular songs these days. Any tips to how on you developed this and also timeframe needed to achieve this. Others, who know, please contribute too.
In case this is not the right section, please move the topic to the right section
Translating melody to notes
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vasanthakokilam
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charukesi, I actually do not know the answer since I am quite bad at what you are talking about. The thread you are referring to was some free form discussions on how to incorporate chords in CM but your question is a more general one, how to translate the notes of a melody. I will let others who about this stuff answer.
( I have changed the title of the thread to reflect this )
( I have changed the title of the thread to reflect this )
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arunk
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It is sort of like raga identification. How does one get it even without knowing the structure of the raga or even know if it has ri or a ga and which ones? One could say that you get familiar with "feel of the raga" by subconsciously recognizing basic patterns. Similarly, with some exposure to playing western instruments, you start by getting familiar with the feel for some basic chords. For example, to begin with each chord type i.e. major, minor, seventh etc. have different and recognizable feel/sound to them. It is distinctive enough for you to get familiar with the feel and be able to tell "that is a minor chord there", "that is a seventh there" etc. So even though you may not know that a certain chord change is precisely from G-major to A-minor, you can recognize that it was a transition from a major to a minor chord and even the distance (i.e. 1 full step, G-> Am or A -> Bm, or C to Dm etc, in the case).
Once you get into it more, complex chords like minor-7th, major-5th, sixths, sustained etc. may also be discernible I think. However, I think if you are getting that far, my guess is you probably develop absolute pitch and can get the precise notes as well.
I never got that far - I could with some experimenting get the major-7ths. But I mostly went by cheat-sheets
Arun
Once you get into it more, complex chords like minor-7th, major-5th, sixths, sustained etc. may also be discernible I think. However, I think if you are getting that far, my guess is you probably develop absolute pitch and can get the precise notes as well.
I never got that far - I could with some experimenting get the major-7ths. But I mostly went by cheat-sheets
Arun
Last edited by arunk on 22 Jun 2007, 07:10, edited 1 time in total.
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uday_shankar
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A few more points to add to arun's post above:
1) Some pop/rock bands are easier than others. For example, many numbers from Beatles and Simon&Garfunkel are fairly easy to decipher. But say, Jethro Tull is often much harder since many obscure, often self-styled, chords and progressions come into play. However, even here, a reasonable-sounding substitute can often be found within the familiar simpler chord set.
2) Some genres like jazz require familiarity with an entirely different set of chords and progressions. Since I'm not familiar with that genre, I couldn't comment on how easy/difficult those may be.
3) It is meaningless (and often impossibly difficult) to "decipher" western classical music; it comes to you written anyway.
4) Why bother deciphering when there are cheat-sheets in most cases ?!
1) Some pop/rock bands are easier than others. For example, many numbers from Beatles and Simon&Garfunkel are fairly easy to decipher. But say, Jethro Tull is often much harder since many obscure, often self-styled, chords and progressions come into play. However, even here, a reasonable-sounding substitute can often be found within the familiar simpler chord set.
2) Some genres like jazz require familiarity with an entirely different set of chords and progressions. Since I'm not familiar with that genre, I couldn't comment on how easy/difficult those may be.
3) It is meaningless (and often impossibly difficult) to "decipher" western classical music; it comes to you written anyway.
4) Why bother deciphering when there are cheat-sheets in most cases ?!
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charukesi
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- Joined: 22 Jun 2007, 03:49
Thanks everyone for the responses
Uday, a musician/composer needs to be able to identify chords. Just like how a carnatic musician can instatly identify notes. Its as simple as that. Having sheets and everything else is fine, if I have to read that and perform. Thats probably the first step.
But developing the skill of identifying chords and notes is a must. You cant get by without it. Name one carnatic composer or western classical composer who did not have swaragnaanam or chord-nyaanam. You are talking ONLY from the point of view of aperformer. But even there, lots of western classical performers can identify chords by hearing. Havent you heard of "playing by ear"? Thats what its all about.
If you cannot hear chords then you cant probably compose them either, without playing any instruments
arunk, what to say? I can only envy those who can do what you are saying. Somehow I find identifying chords is ten times as tough as identifying notes while listening to a melody and I even find the latter difficult. To be able to instantly write the notes down and the chords after listening to a song is a great skill to have.
What I find difficult is most of the time I dont even hear the chords like how I hear the melody of the song. There are a lot of instruments going on in a song.
1. So, which instrument is playing the chords?
2. Are there any chords at all that are being played? or is the instrument playing only the melody?
We have to deterrmine above 2. Then you need to finsd the pitch of the song.Typically you have the lead melody, certain instruments playing lead melodies, certain instruments playing chords and then certain instruments playing basslines. Apart from the percussion. So you see how complex it is. Out of all this, you have to just pick the chords alone. Sounds like an incredibly difficult job. But I believe with the right practice and lots lots of listening it can be done.
How do llocal orchestras and the keyboard players in them decipher the chords of a popular song and play it? Do you think they get the chords correctly 100%, or some of it is guesswork? Do all of them have perfect pitch? I think not. So how do they do it?
They put their own chords that fit those lines? That seems possible.
Since there are more than 1 chord that can fit a particular melody piece, it makes identifying chords more of an art.
Right now, to me, a lot of chords sound the same. Unlike notes of melody, the chords dont seem to be distinct enough for me to identify them. That is, after I determine whether what I heard was a chord at all:-), which is by itself is another difficult task.Iam just a beginner.
Unlike identifying notes of a carnatic/light song from listening to the melody(which itself takes a loooong time to develop), I believe picking chords from a song requires that you be an instrument player of some kind, right? I think thats why picking chords seems difficult to me. I dont play any instrument particularly well. Unless I learn piano/KB or guitar really well and play out those chords myself I feel I wont be able to decipher even 10% of all the chords.
So many questions, sorry for piling it all up.
Uday, a musician/composer needs to be able to identify chords. Just like how a carnatic musician can instatly identify notes. Its as simple as that. Having sheets and everything else is fine, if I have to read that and perform. Thats probably the first step.
But developing the skill of identifying chords and notes is a must. You cant get by without it. Name one carnatic composer or western classical composer who did not have swaragnaanam or chord-nyaanam. You are talking ONLY from the point of view of aperformer. But even there, lots of western classical performers can identify chords by hearing. Havent you heard of "playing by ear"? Thats what its all about.
If you cannot hear chords then you cant probably compose them either, without playing any instruments
arunk, what to say? I can only envy those who can do what you are saying. Somehow I find identifying chords is ten times as tough as identifying notes while listening to a melody and I even find the latter difficult. To be able to instantly write the notes down and the chords after listening to a song is a great skill to have.
What I find difficult is most of the time I dont even hear the chords like how I hear the melody of the song. There are a lot of instruments going on in a song.
1. So, which instrument is playing the chords?
2. Are there any chords at all that are being played? or is the instrument playing only the melody?
We have to deterrmine above 2. Then you need to finsd the pitch of the song.Typically you have the lead melody, certain instruments playing lead melodies, certain instruments playing chords and then certain instruments playing basslines. Apart from the percussion. So you see how complex it is. Out of all this, you have to just pick the chords alone. Sounds like an incredibly difficult job. But I believe with the right practice and lots lots of listening it can be done.
How do llocal orchestras and the keyboard players in them decipher the chords of a popular song and play it? Do you think they get the chords correctly 100%, or some of it is guesswork? Do all of them have perfect pitch? I think not. So how do they do it?
They put their own chords that fit those lines? That seems possible.
Since there are more than 1 chord that can fit a particular melody piece, it makes identifying chords more of an art.
Right now, to me, a lot of chords sound the same. Unlike notes of melody, the chords dont seem to be distinct enough for me to identify them. That is, after I determine whether what I heard was a chord at all:-), which is by itself is another difficult task.Iam just a beginner.
Unlike identifying notes of a carnatic/light song from listening to the melody(which itself takes a loooong time to develop), I believe picking chords from a song requires that you be an instrument player of some kind, right? I think thats why picking chords seems difficult to me. I dont play any instrument particularly well. Unless I learn piano/KB or guitar really well and play out those chords myself I feel I wont be able to decipher even 10% of all the chords.
So many questions, sorry for piling it all up.
Last edited by charukesi on 22 Jun 2007, 22:18, edited 1 time in total.
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arunk
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No need to be envious as I really dont have that skillcharukesi wrote:I can only envy those who can do what you are saying. Somehow I find identifying chords is ten times as tough as identifying notes while listening to a melody and I even find the latter difficult. To be able to instantly write the notes down and the chords after listening to a song is a great skill to have.
. I can get a few in few songs - but pretty much always only after I have sit with a guitar and play, and see if it "feels" like the chord in the song. I remember many a times getting all excited when I finally arrive at the right one! But that was before I discovered cheat-sheets 
Also dont assume that in all songs there is a rhythm guitar or a keyboard playing the chord. That can be more so for older bands, some simple rock songs, and for many songs of bands like Beetles etc. But it is very common for many instruments to combine to give the effect of the chord - the bass guitar, the organ/synthesizer at the back, the rythm guitar (which can be really really soft). In general, where I have had success is to guage the overall "feel" and see which chord is close enough - this is not unlike the feel of the raga but it obviously is much more transient. For simple songs my guess would be usually correct, for complex songs this would be approximation - sometimes good, more often really bad. But I was trying to play a song on a guitar - if the original song had many instruments combined to produce an effect, how can my guitar alone produce the same?
As Uday said, many bands use chords which are quite complex and also modifications to standard ones (jazz probably being the most complex). So many times people (amateurs) approximate - but I would think experts usually get it nail it correct or get it very close no matter how complex - the cheat-sheets can be very accurate.
And yes you are right - it is very complex with polyphonic music. To reproduce accurately you must be able to figure out the pieces of all the instruments. Not very easy - but it can be done by experts. I have cheat sheets of some songs which are extremely elaborate and spell out the melodies/parts of every instrument - but I do not know if all were figured out just by listening to the whole song, or they use techniques for isolating pieces and then do it.
All this complexity is also why cheat sheets are very useful. I would guess that even people serious into music would use them rather than trying to re-figure out everything from scratch (i.e. they leverage of other's work). It saves a lot of time.
Arun
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charukesi
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arun, thanks.
These sheets you are talking about, for what kind of songs(i.e western pop?) do you have them. Do you have any for Indian popular or film songs that involve ragas?
Is there any online source where I can have a look?
Maybe like you said most amateur orchestras that play these songs offen approximate or use cheat sheets. Also since its possible to play more than one chord for a given melody, they can always substitute their own. Which makes reproducing the song exactly on stage close to an impossible task (i.e except for the lead vocals)
These sheets you are talking about, for what kind of songs(i.e western pop?) do you have them. Do you have any for Indian popular or film songs that involve ragas?
Is there any online source where I can have a look?
Maybe like you said most amateur orchestras that play these songs offen approximate or use cheat sheets. Also since its possible to play more than one chord for a given melody, they can always substitute their own. Which makes reproducing the song exactly on stage close to an impossible task (i.e except for the lead vocals)
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vasanthakokilam
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charukesi: You may find this program useful for working on your chord-gyanam: http://www.chordstudio.com/ChordStudio/index.htm
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arunk
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charukesi - I worked mainly with western music ones (rock - not pop ). But that was because I was more into it then and it was quite a few years back. I do not know about film music although I think with the internet era you may be able to find these online.
Arun
). But that was because I was more into it then and it was quite a few years back. I do not know about film music although I think with the internet era you may be able to find these online. They dont have too much freedom as that will change the effect of the song too much. If your approximation is bad, in general it will show.charukesi wrote:Also since its possible to play more than one chord for a given melody, they can always substitute their own.
Arun