Appreciating other forms of music

bhaktha · Post by **bhaktha** » 09 Jun 2007, 16:19

I don't even know if this is the appropriate place, but still....
Having been a cm fan for so many years now, I am not able to appreciate any other kind of music (non-classical), probably except ghulam ali. In particular, I seem to be averse to western... (my nephew was saying something about "vedic death metal" the other day! God knows what it means)...I have heard a lot of people say that listening to cm broadens one's musical horizon, but mine seems to have narrowed down to cm only. I wanted to know if others have had the same experience too and how one can start appreciating other forms of music.
-bhaktha

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 09 Jun 2007, 21:01

bhaktha wrote:I have heard a lot of people say that listening to cm broadens one's musical horizon, but mine seems to have narrowed down to cm only. I wanted to know if others have had the same experience too and how one can start appreciating other forms of music.
-bhaktha

Dear brother-member, bhaktha, While Karnataka music is sangati-based Hindusthani music is sangita-based. Sangita-based music means sound based and while the sangati-based music goes only up to the ear the sangita-based music goes up to the inner heart and make the listeners weep heavily with indescribable emotions. Many of our Karanataka musicians may not agree with me, but this is the truth. Listening to music vastly differs with enjoying music. While many hundreds listen to music very few of them really enjoy music. Even in the category of so called stalwarts of Karnataka music, I was surprised to note that many of them can sing music efficiently and excellently and also enjoy Karnataka music only but not any other true music. This sensitive topic is only demonstratable but not debatable. amsharma.

bhaktha · Post by **bhaktha** » 09 Jun 2007, 21:31

Thanks sarmaji. You have touched upon a very sensitive (and debatable?) topic. I was only trying to ask if cm listeners are able to appreciate other kinds of music, more specifically western.
-bhaktha

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 09 Jun 2007, 21:38

http://www.sendspace.com/file/7oanfi

I just tried developing a vaccine for tolerating some other kinds of music.
Bhaktha .. can you just try it and let me know the Results.
(Though it is only now that I have read about the emphasis on western Music)

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 09 Jun 2007, 21:40

Dear brother-member, bhaktha, Of course, our Karnataka musicians, though not many, are also able to enjoy the western music as it is also nothing else than music. amsharma.

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 09 Jun 2007, 21:50

The answer to your question is in the concept of crazy loops. First, your mind has to be open to appreciate other forms of music. If you go with a closed mind, chances are you will fail to appreciate the beauty of the other form. If your mind is open, then you give yourself a chance. And then you come across something, a particular artist or some performance that will draw you towards the artform and broaden your perspectives further.

Personally, I was more interested in western artforms and contemporary dance style straight out of college. I just could not relate to Indian physical art forms as there was hardly any athleticism compared to Jazz or Ballet. I was watching a dance performance by the Alvin Ailey group in the US and when asked what routines do they practise to keep their body so flexible, they said they did Yoga to keep themselves centred. It turned out to be an eyeopener and then I was lucky to get introduced to a wonderful artform called Kalari and subsequently the best version of Hatha yoga (in my opinion) of BKS Iyengar. While I'm now a student of these art forms, I still admire our western counterparts and their mindblowing movements on stage.

I think if you stop indulging in comparisons and just experience the artist and the artform, you usually should be able to see the beauty in a Bach or a Mozart...My 2 cents!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 09 Jun 2007, 21:58

bala,
Worth more than two cents!
You said it so well. Your experince speaks of an open mind and eagerness to experience good music, whatever its caste or creed. If you take Nick, he comes from the other end of the spectrum. Music has no boundaries...

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 09 Jun 2007, 23:19

The funny thing is that what you will hear in my house 90% of the time is ...silence! I really do not listen to that much music at all, although it goes in phases.

But for that 10%... you might find me having a day of listening to 30-yr old psychedelic rock music, but you are more likely to find me listening to something carnatic.

In a way I think it is a matter of habit. I think I would still love a mahler symphony (no, this one is too easy; I'm sure I would...) but I have got out of the habit of listening to Western Classical.

Part of that is practical: my Western classical days were Vinyl days, and I just never acquired that much on CD.

I do find it takes something of an effort to switch between Carnatic and Hindustani. Once the switch is made, I am happy listening to Hindustani, and have to switch back again.

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 09 Jun 2007, 23:33

Just the other day I was walking along the Jubilee bridge (across the Thames) and was caught by some amazing music. It was this busker who was playing amazing flamenco on his guitar. Simply divine stuff.

I do agree that continued exposure to CM can rearrange our neurons to the extent it can become a bit hard to appreciate other forms. But the trick I use is not to superimpose the CM structure on other music I listen to - this may make it a bit easier to enjoy them.

I still have my collection of Coltrane, Pink Floyd, Jethro Tull, Joan Baez, etc. etc. Listening to them brings immense happiness because of the association with great times spent years ago at IIT.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 10 Jun 2007, 07:21

Dear b/s members, Please also go through my 12th post of Karnatic music - current and future generations in General Discussions. As our brother-member, nick H put in, though it is a matter of habit, many of the Hindusthani-musicians cannot relish our traditional-gamakas of Sadharana-gandhara or Shuddha-madhyama or Kaishiki-nishada as their radius of oscillation starts from the immediate lower note of the original note which is un-natural while their Gamaka starts from the original note itself. But, as we have been used to it since a long time we are able to relish it even though it is un-natural.
Once a fisher-woman entered into a bus to travel with a basket of fish and sat on the floor of the bus. A few minutes later, a land-lord with a neat dress filled with a nice smell of scents entered into the bus and sat in a seat near this fisher-woman. But, this fisher-woman, having become unable to relish the nice smell of the beautiful scent, bowed her head down into her basket of fish to put her nose as much nearer to the fish as she can. I feel very sorry to tell that this was the state of many of our Karnataka musicians and now-a-days many of them are realizing and relishing other systems of music also. amsharma.

bhaktha · Post by **bhaktha** » 10 Jun 2007, 08:13

Thanks everyone. As already mentioned, I love any form of classical music (incl. western, Bach being my fav). I said I am averse only to the Rock and metal kind of music. Somehow, the noise levels and lyrics put me off.
@coolji,
Great assortment of Indian music.loved it.
-bhaktha

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 12 Jun 2007, 12:58

Sharmaji your thoughts provoke a lot of thought, coming as they do from someone as musically accomplished as yourself. Do you mean that Carnatic Music, they way it is practiced today, is inferior to Hindusthani or is your opinion directed at the art form itself?

Anyway, this is perhaps a good opportunity to reminisce about my own musical evolution (for want of a better word!). Carnatic Music was omnipresent at home when I was growing up but not even Thathaâ€™s fascinating narratives from the Epics was enough reason to put up with the GNBs and MMIs flowing out of his WW2 vintage radio set! Childhood was mostly about Hindi Film songs, especially old ones.High school and college saw a shift to rock but ELOâ€™s version of â€œRoll Over Beethovenâ€

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 12 Jun 2007, 16:18

Dear brother-member, vijay, As all are well aware Music is the only Universal language graced by the Almighty to the mankind and there is no question of inferiority in it. Even the poison becomes a life saving drug and vice versa basing upon the condition of a particular patient. People of one country may not be able to relish the music of other country as they are brought up in one kind of environment of music which is stamped as their â€˜traditionâ€™. Different kinds of combinations of sounds, which we call them notes, and their treatment in their â€˜traditionâ€™ gives soothing effect to the people of that country. These combinations of sounds and their treatment may differ from country to country depending upon the analytical talent of the people and their aesthetic and scientific approach to the art. Above all, it mostly depends upon how much you are exposed to a particular â€˜traditionâ€™ of music to make you enjoy and admire it. As, this topic is mostly demonstratable and cannot even be writable, to make others understand even up to some extent, I, if you pardon me, would like to stop here and demonstrate it if occasion arises. amsharma.

bhaktha · Post by **bhaktha** » 12 Jun 2007, 19:13

msakella wrote:Above all, it mostly depends upon how much you are exposed to a particular â€˜traditionâ€™ of music to make you enjoy and admire it.

Very true sir. That was exactly what I was trying to say. Since I have been exposed to cm right from a very young age (I guess I am still young!!

), I have absorbed only this genre of music and any other non-classical form, like the present day western music puts me off. And to top it all, I hear of a rock fest (or some such event) that's going to take place here. WOndering if I should attend to be able to appreciate better??;)
-bhaktha

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 13 Jun 2007, 04:43

Bhaktha,
Isn't it interesting to see how we rasikAs differ, given the same circumstances! Vijay had the exposure too as he was growing up--just like you. Yet, he went a different route. Came to appreciate CM (and he knows a lot about it too) in his own way. One thing is certain. If you are surrounded by it as a child, you invariably seek it, no matter...

shripathi_g · Post by **shripathi_g** » 13 Jun 2007, 10:35

Bhaktha,

I'm pretty much in the same situation as you. I can't tolerate film music. My mind somehow shuts off when I listen to film music. I can listen to CM-based songs any day though. I can barely tolerate other forms of music save HM. I think it might have to do with the fact that we may be approaching these new forms the way we appreciate CM currently. i.e. looking for subtleties, trying to learn the nuances etc. These new forms may either lack such subtleties or be devoid of intellectual content that we might be seeking. The trick might be to just ask the little guy in our heads to keep quiet for a while and soak in the music. If one's musical tastes have evolved sufficiently and if the music is good, we'll go back to it eventually.

I think what msakellaji is talking about can be demonstrated with a simple example - http://www.sangeethapriya.org/~sripathy ... rukesi.MP3
Take any Carnatic Charukesi rendition and it'll never touch your heart the way the clip above does. What might be lacking is not the music itself but the way it's presented. One of my friends opined that CM lacked in aesthetics compared to HM. I'm not sufficiently qualified to comment on that opinion but have felt something similar when listening to certain ragas. Sometimes, I feel that our musicians are more intent on packing a punch rather than conveying the mood of the raga.

http://www.sangeethapriya.org/~sripathy ... tnekar.mp3 - this is another rendition that I've come to enjoy a lot. Thanks to Kji for both the clips.

Sam Swaminathan · Post by **Sam Swaminathan** » 13 Jun 2007, 11:08

Based on my limited knowledge of carnatic music, this is the conclusion I have come to, after years of hearing and playing the divine music.

Carnatic music is a "aalamara vruksham". One can sit under its benevalent shade and eat any kind of food....it could include pure thayir sadam, chappati with kuruma or club sandwich bought from a western cafe. The choice is yours. Once you have finished the food, you can wipe your hand, stretch yourself and enjoy the shade.

I never close my ears to any music. This is the gift CM has given me. I can see and hear carnatic music in other music as well, be it a rendition of hindustani or a bach. Music is music and the lot of them have only one base, 7 swaras. That being the case, why not we spread our wing and fly in to the yonder of the music world ?!!

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 13 Jun 2007, 11:11

This thread is getting interesting with some fine writing by Vijay , Msakellagaru and others.
We did have a similar discussion long long ago (My eyes go moist at the thought of the newly Wed person who was suffering from Cancer and the postings by his young wife.On how Music had made a difference to them.
Are we all not very very lucky to be alive and kicking ?
Bhaktha .. do go to that rock festival .And enjoy yourself if it turns out be good.In the few months that I have been hearing Worldspace, I cant take my ears off from the Country Music Channel.Boy ! What a great use they make of the Guitar ! And the Music can fill life into the most dull of persons.
Strange that so many of us have been travelling on tracks without guidance and yet we find ourselves in common territory.
I remember having read long ago that the beauty of travel is not that you get to see new exciting places.
But that , on returning to base , one finds his own home territory so much more exciting !
Is the same thing not happening to all of us.
I travelled abroad only once in my lifetime and spent a few weeks in a German factory , Spending all my free time like a German.
And as my return flight landed at Meenambakkam , My dad was there to receive me and he shot a quick question.
Hey ! What are first few things that you are thirsting for , that I can help you in the next couple of Hours ?
I could only think of Rice with Rasam and the Music of Madurai Mani Iyer.
Sripathi
You talk of Charukesi.
Here is a track of SRJ that attracted me to his music way back in 1983
http://www.sendspace.com/file/rpbk98

And TVS also sings such a wonderful version of Adamodi in the company of MC-TKM.

And of course there is the additional aspect of our age and experiences.Music is so very much like Books , atleast as far as the following quote is concerned.

Reading books in oneâ€™s youth is like looking out at the moon through a crevice. Reading books in middle age is like looking at the moon in oneâ€™s own courtyard. And reading books in old age is like looking at the moon on an open terrace. That is because the depths of the benefits of reading varies in proportion to the depths of oneâ€™s own experience

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 13 Jun 2007, 11:41

Hi. I'm Prashant P and I'm a musicoholic.

Growing up it was CM all the time. Tapes and spools were playing almost constantly; my grandmother was a very competent music teacher and I began learning around the age of 4; artistes visited and stayed at home, so the seed was planted at an early age. As a child, I think I held the record for falling asleep at the maximum number of concerts.

Come my teenage years, and my mAmA with biscuit crates full of LPs, a great sound system and a taste for classic rock became a big influence. He also had a great collection of Western Classical music and thanks to him, a love of that system came about that endures even today. In this period of black-t-shirted rebellion, CM [apart from relatively unwilling (but still regular) practice sessions and the occasional concert] took a back seat. Going off to college in the US, it receded even further. I pretty much stopped practicing, singing or listening during my undergrad days. I discovered music software in a big way and started writing my own music with friends, which was an insight into a bunch of musical tastes [read: more CD buying].

It took moving back to India and three iridescent moments, a Vijay Siva kAmbhOji live in 1999, a TVS kIravANi stuck in a rain-induced traffic jam and GNB's shaNmukhapriya RTP on a lazy Saturday afternoon to jolt me back into seeking out CM again. The voluminous collection easily accessible at home really, really helped - I also started learning from my Guru again and lessons quickly progressed from revision to genuine musical progress. That's when I realized that the childhood listening helped - everything came back so quickly.

However, I definitely can't subsist on a CM-only diet. About 50 of my listening is CM. The rest is opera / old Hindi stuff / African music / classic rock / electronic music / chansons / Western Classical etc. I am rather ashamed to admit, however, that my HM listening has been very limited. I like, enjoy and respect the system - I just like other stuff better. Itâ€™s a big gap in my listening and musical learning, but I am sure the time will come soon!

Even dearer to me than the love of music, however, are the precious memories that go with it: the KVN srI vishNu pada that spun on my iPod as I saw a tall and beautiful woman [now my wife] walking through the doors of a Bandra coffee shop looking for the 'guy in a blue shirt'; the Miles Davis album that kept me going through turbulence when I thought we were done for, Kiri Te's soaring voice cajoling me through mile 22 of a marathon [SSIâ€™s sArasAksha doing the trick for mile 23], and others too numerous to mention. Some feelings, across systems, are universal: when, at the Academy last year, Nedunuri gAru sang a tODi that distilled a 50-year music journey in 20 minutes of bliss, when an 80+ Rostropovitch closed his eyes with a smile as he put bow to cello strings during his one-and-only visit to Mumbai, when the first plinks of Ali Farka TourÃ©â€™s guitar gently but firmly quietened the hubbub of the mostly African audience in a little Paris jazz bar, one thing was common: I knew I was in the presence of greatness.

A life without CM, for me, is absolutely unthinkable, but equally so is a life without all the other musical forms that I enjoy so much.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 13 Jun 2007, 12:07

Hi. I'm Prashant P and I'm a musicoholic.

Now do we have two Prashants here ??

If you are the one we know very well, then I must admit marriage is doing wonders to your postings here !!

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 13 Jun 2007, 12:13

LOL - I am the self-same one Kulkarniji [never imitated, so never duplicated

]

bhaktha · Post by **bhaktha** » 13 Jun 2007, 12:23

shripathi_g wrote:Bhaktha,

I'm pretty much in the same situation as you. I can't tolerate film music. My mind somehow shuts off when I listen to film music. I can listen to CM-based songs any day though. I can barely tolerate other forms of music save HM. I think it might have to do with the fact that we may be approaching these new forms the way we appreciate CM currently. i.e. looking for subtleties, trying to learn the nuances etc. These new forms may either lack such subtleties or be devoid of intellectual content that we might be seeking.

I guess this quite sums it up. As arasiji has pointed out, we invariably seek that genre of music that we have heard/experienced/enjoyed in our childhood. I am not lamenting that I have missed out on the kind of music my friends in younger days used to enjoy. In fact, I feel pity on those who have missed out on the treasure house that cm is! But all the same, even now, I feel completely left out in a group of friends/relatives who disscuss Progressive rock and Metallica with as much fervour as I would discuss a KVN or MDR. The reason I wanted to know techniques by which I could appreciate rock and other stuff was not because I really wanted to relish these genres (GOD!! CM itself will take me another 10 janmas), but only because I should not feel left out.
@Coolji,
I was just kidding about the rock show. Won't be able to stand the noise. And I mean the noise that the crowd makes...lest I be misunderstood

-bhaktha

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 13 Jun 2007, 13:01

Dear brother-members, Recently when I met my Parama Guru Sangita Kalanidhi Dr.Sripada Pinakapani (Guru or my Guru Shri Nedunuri Krishna Murthy) of Kurnool, in course of our discussion on music, he told that the excessive Gamaka which is being used in singing Sadharana-gandhara, Shuddha-madhyama and Kaishiki-nishada of Karnataka music is a later intrusion made by some clever Vidwans and it was not there in the olden days. Me too agree with him. In our music, the lower limit of the radius of these notes has cleverly been extended to the immediate lower note of the respective note i.e., up to Chatusshruti-rishabha for Sadharana-gandhara, Antara-gandhara for Shuddha-madhyama and Chatusshruti-dhaivata for Kaishiki-nishada by some Vidwans unknown. Even our musicians, as they have, since a long time, been accustomed to go along with them, are able to manage and even relish them as they are also concord with our basic Shruti.
Had these notes been discordant with our basic Shruti, even some of our ancestors would have opposed them long long ago. But, as Hindusthani musicians always sing the Gamakas of any note on the upper side of the note only but not beneath the note at all they are unable to relish our music like us and, moreover, they think we are singing off-note. As our brother-member, shripathi g puts it â€˜what might be lacking is not the music itself but the way itâ€™s presentedâ€™. Also I cannot agree with the argument that CM is lacking in aesthetics when compared with HM. Truth is always bitter. Lacking in aesthetics is not the fault of Music but the person who brings it out. No doubt at all, any music is always full of aesthetics. If you see even an ugly baby with the eyes of his mother you can relish his beauty. Being Karnataka musicians, are we not able to relish our music? We are able to do so, as we have been accustomed to listen to it since many years. In the same manner we may not be able to relish Chinese music. But it is not the defect of music at all. That is the defect of the singer or the listener who have never been accustomed to sing or listen to it like our Chinese-brothers. As our brother-member, coolkarni puts it â€˜there is also the additional aspect of age and experiencesâ€™, adding fuel to the fire. Of course, this is an endless topic to handle and I feel, always it is better to discuss this in person while listening to some heart-warming music, whether it be Karnataka or Hindusthani or Western or any other variety. amsharma.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 13 Jun 2007, 19:57

Things have certainly become more initeresting. It would be great if we could have more views on how members got into CM, especially those who've not been into in since childhood.

Sharmaji thanks for your clarifications - it is reassuring to note that your opinion is limited to the manner of presentation rather than the art form itself..

Sripathi, what you say is true. In Indian classical music, CM in particularly, places a lot of emphasis on grammar, making the experience more absorbing than most other forms of music. I frequently find it possible to "get interested" in concerts that I don't necessarily enjoy - TNS on a bad throat day being a classic example! From identifying the raga to catching rare phrases to fuguring out the nadais and korvais, it is as you rightly point out, often a distraction from aesthetic enjoyment! I find this aspect completely missing in most western forms of music (even western classical music does not really demand the same kind of knowledge from its audience as CM/HM).

Have to disagree on Charukeshi though (I am unable to download but I presume they are HM tracks). This is one raga in which I feel the HM approach tends to be rather scalar in intepretation as compared to CM recitals (in the L Sub - Amjad jugal for instance, the HM version was, well, bland). You should have heard Sanjay at Indian Fine Arts in 2003 - it was a revelation.

Prashant your musical tastes are eclectic indeed. Pehaps we should start a world music section with you as the moderator!

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 13 Jun 2007, 20:27

Vijay,
Here goes:
CM for me started with the AIR national programs of music - 'early' dinner, lights out, concentrate just on the music, with mom and dad (uninitiated, but die-hard rasikas nevertheless) making comments on styles etc...from there, to listening to CM on spools on an antiquated Grundig. For a LONG time, HM was equated with Ravi Shankar (and to tell you the truth, did not really catch on much!)....
Listening to film music came later - being born with absolutely no sense of time, my dad came up with the idea of having the radio on, and as he had timed it that one song+ads took 5 minutes or so, time was measured in song units..it was easier somehow to figure that I had a 3 song units to shower and change, or else be late for school assembly! And as time went on, the songs began to interest me - he used to tune the radio to stations that played old hindi songs - began a lifelong romance with the language and music genre...
When we moved to Madras, I started to listen to tamizh movie songs as well...
After marriage, began to appreciate country music (thanks to my wife who is an officianado), and the Carpenters!
So, if I were to break down musical genres I listen to as Prashant has done: 60-75% CM (depends on my mood), 15% Old hindi songs, 5% tamizh songs, and the rest, country music (the other CM!).
When (if I were 100% honest, I would say, 'if'!) working out, I prefer a set of tillAnAs, or songs in kuntalavarALI, or Rafi Asha duets...my speed tends to be inversely related to the 'weight' of the compositions, so, any other music just doesn't do it for me at all! I am really impressed that Prashant and Sripati are able to run listening to 'heavy' pieces by SSI and KVN..etc.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 13 Jun 2007, 21:01

My story:

CM was in house from childhood but even though my memories are hazy, I do remember that I mostly avoided it - and didn't find it as appealing. My parents didn't "force me to get appealed" - a "liberty" my child doesn't have now I should add

. I am a bit ambivalent now as to why my parents didn't do that. I feel I missed out getting into CM earlier, but other times I feel I gained by appreciating other forms - at least for a while.

So anyway I first stuck to tamil film songs during school, and then to tamil film and western (rock) music in college, and to mostly western music in US. In US, tamil film became mostly a nostalgic experience - as I couldn't get into Rahman as much as I got into Viswanathan(-Ramamurthy), and of course Ilayaraja. The "blame" if any is really mine - I think such things are in general a tendency of our mind to become more closed driven by the fear of loosing what it already cherishes. I suffer from this "fear" even now as I mention below.

But things somehow changed about 12 years or so ago. Slowly started getting attracted to CM - a maharajapuram santhanam cassette of OVK songs playing a huge role. CM also made a re-entry into my house via my better half, and also via a different vehicle (i.e. dance). What was funny was even though my memory told me that I didn't enjoy CM when I was young, I guess it still must have seeped into my system, since I was able to remember songs that my mom used to sing and that I instantly could relate to, somehow knew tODi, bhairavi were major ragas. The big factor was raga identification came to me easier than I thought. Soon I was hooked pretty good, and from then on it has been exclusively CM. The benevolent few who shared their huge collection of concerts played a huge role too.

Music I enjoyed before like tamil film songs, and that of western rock bands like Pink Floyd, Deep Purple, Eages all started become "just memory" of what I viewed as it "my previous life". I dont know how it is for others, for me the fact that "i came back to my roots" and I can enjoy it immensely - seem to strangely pump my ego at times. I felt "blessed" and "lucky" leading to the thought What you are listening now is better, infinitely better. Besides it is our own music. Can there be a better situation? Now why would you want to compromise this ideal situation by also listening to other forms. But it is all in the mind - the silly games we play! At least I am thankful that it didn't drive me to the point of putting down other art forms (popular and classical). They just seemed no longer my cup of tea and not grab by interest.

I am ambivalent about this too - I wish I can divide my time to all art forms but that irrational "fear factor" I mention above plays the hurdle: I don't want to get drawn into something else that I loose what I am enjoying now even by one less an iota. Silly isn't it?

Last week, I attended a western rock concert of my favorite band. It was great reliving the songs after many years and I enjoyed it a lot. I was humming those tunes for a few days - went back to listening standard FM radio to catch some old classic rock songs again. But soon I was back to CM land. I still enjoy both, but enjoy CM better. Somehow it seems more deep, more complete - but I am sure it is all in the mind. The mind is cleverest con man of 'em all!

Arun

shripathi_g · Post by **shripathi_g** » 13 Jun 2007, 21:14

Vijay, I did hear Sanjay's Charukesi in IFA in person when I was on vacation and I have recorded it too. Still, I feel that the Carnatic version of the raga doesn't do justice to the raga entirely. The Hindustani version seems to touch some chord in me that I cannot explain. But it could be an entirely personal thing. So, I guess it's not fair to cite that as an example.

Talking about CM exposure during childhood, I didn't like CM till I was 17. Forget CM, I had no musical inclination whatsoever till I was around 16 or so. And then I happened to hear MMI's Ga Ma Pa Ma Ga, Ri Ga Sa Ri Ga Ga....

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 13 Jun 2007, 21:17

rshankar wrote:I am really impressed that Prashant and Sripati are able to run listening to 'heavy' pieces by SSI and KVN..etc.

My wife found it quite odd when I said when I ran (which happens only once in a blue moon as per her precise calculations), I preferred a heavy CM piece like a pantuvarALi/toDI. It seemed to intensify my concentration and bring clarity. I find this true in listening/attending concerts also.

Arun

shripathi_g · Post by **shripathi_g** » 13 Jun 2007, 21:32

arunk, personally, I find that I listen to long pieces when I'm running or I record a whole concert as a single track and listen to it. Also ,for someone used to music during running, it might be difficult to run without it. I found that I was able to run faster without the music but when I was not in peak condition, music was definitely able to carry me through. Recently, I was struggling hard to get myself going in one of my legs, which was at midnight, in a Relay. Enter Chembai with his Panthuvarali and I managed one of my best times on a tough course.

nadhasudha · Post by **nadhasudha** » 13 Jun 2007, 22:42

My musical evolution - Was exposed to a lot of music during school and college days. learnt to play the veena for around 4 to 5 years but quit when I reached 10 th grade. Took to carnatic based film music during plus two and college days. Married and had a son. I rediscovered the treasure of our carnatic music system only when my son started learning it. It was as if a light bulb switched "on" in my head and suddenly things I had learnt/listened years ago made sense and my appreciation for our carnatic music system sharpened. It has now evolved to the point where I cannot be without listening to carnatic music on any given day. My musical listening is 100% carnatic. I have no patience for rock,pop or any other systems of music. To be honest, I find hindustani music boring.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 14 Jun 2007, 00:46

I wish I could attend a concert of my favourite rock band --- but it is now many years since Jerry Garcia's death brought the Grateful Dead's touring days to an end, and they seldom visited UK anyway. I do recall seeing them in early 1990s, and wondering why, as someone who hated crowds and loud noise, I was on my way to a place where over 10,000 people would be watching a rock band! Have to say I loved every minute of it!

In my childhood I enjoyed my parent's collection of romantic ballads, in which they had lost interest. Similarly I was always wanting to watch stuff like Fred Astaire movies that drove them mad because they'd had enough of them decades previously.

Through the 1960s I prefered Gilbert & Sulivan to Lennon and Macartney --- and only came, much later, to appreciate the magical richness of their melodies and compositions. It took me even longer to appreciate Hendrix! I liked folk rock, with it's greater emphasis on melody, and interesting lyric to tune matches. I liked singers whose words I could hear and always hated shreiking into the microphone. I liked music with at least some improvisational content --- the aforementioned Grateful Dead could improvise for hours, and were said to never plan a concert, but come on stage and play whatever they felt like playing. And I enjoyed the rock music equivalent of the thani --- and even in that environment the drum solo was often seen as an excuse to adjourn to the bar!

I mentioned Mahler in an earlier post, and I suspect that one of his symphonies could probably still send me into a meditative state as might a long Hindustani alaap.

But there is music that we just feel at home with. It causes a kind of a sigh --- like the taste of chai after many hours (or worse, days...) without it.

At a London concert bringing together performances on the fiddle from traditions all over the world, every single performer was wonderful. But the ones that gave me that inner resonance were --- Jewish, Irish and Carnatic. I have no racial affiliation with any of the three! Music is certainly not dependent on physical genetics!

Oddly, I have never been very fond of solo violin in Western music. When I first heard it in carnatic music I had a powerful feeling: this is how the violin is supposed to sound!

But film music? I have become tired of that typical high-pitched female voice which I once found charming, and I recognise too much derivation from the western pop music of decades ago that many of us wrote off as being rubbish even then.

Mind you, there are a few absolute-rubbish pop songs I really like!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 14 Jun 2007, 08:54

Fascinating accounts, all!

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 14 Jun 2007, 09:20

rshankar wrote:When (if I were 100% honest, I would say, 'if'!) working out, I prefer a set of tillAnAs, or songs in kuntalavarALI, or Rafi Asha duets...my speed tends to be inversely related to the 'weight' of the compositions, so, any other music just doesn't do it for me at all! I am really impressed that Prashant and Sripati are able to run listening to 'heavy' pieces by SSI and KVN..etc.

Just as an example, I did about 5-6 mi a couple days ago with SSI's tODi RTP in my ears. I warmed up slowly to the rAgam, got into a stride during the tAnam and was pretty much flying into my final sprint along with the pallavi fireworks. It also depends on what I've been practicing - lately, I've been singing a lot of tODi and kharaharapriyA, and I generally tend to listen to similar stuff to what I've been working on during practice time. Listening while running allows me to really concentrate, appreciate the music and mentally file away some of the nuances to work on later.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 14 Jun 2007, 10:00

Intersting to hear about the exits to the bar during drum solos! So western audiences (at least rock addicts) are no different from the average mama in kutcheries...

Prashant the biggest problem I have, running to carnatic music is that I get hugely disoriented if the beat is not in consonance with my running rhythm (which in case of CM is more often than not!) I remember knocking down a kid while running on the marina with a TNS Pallavi on! I also can't help putting taalam in the air while running and that draws a lot of unwanted attention! Net, net I've blacklisted CM as a running or driving companion....

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 14 Jun 2007, 10:10

Vijay
some years ago I read an article about a new pair of shoes developed by Nike which assessed the speed at which one runs and transmits a message to the ipod for choosing an appropriate Track
I tried googling but could only find this

http://www.time.com/time/business/artic ... 89,00.html

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 14 Jun 2007, 10:13

vijay wrote:I also can't help putting taalam in the air while running and that draws a lot of unwanted attention!

This I do all the time. People at the gym or on my running route think I must be nuts... since that isn't entirely untrue, it's all good!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 14 Jun 2007, 13:33

The talam-putting runner! What a lovely mental picture!

I don't know if people still run out of western rock percussion solos, or indeed if they still happen! I have to admit that, sometimes they were very, very long!

Mickey Hart, by the way, The Grateful Dead's drummer (err... one of them) was the man behind the CD Planet Drum which he worked on with Vikku Vinayakram.

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 15 Jun 2007, 03:57

bhaktha - pls take a look at this video of Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan (the 'Madurai Somu' of Qawwali)...
what passion!
and what a mehfil!
A rock concert and carnatic kutcheri all rolled into one! And neraval, swaras to boot...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJ4otNX_kcg

and this masterpiece...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0wuPt5JfUY

Im A Skal Man · Post by **Im A Skal Man** » 16 Jun 2007, 03:00

I like listening to Carnatic Music while I run too. Very invigorating. I keep talum with my feet though. I have to do a lot of hopping on one leg for Mishra Chapu or any odd cycle:)

I like just about every genre of music. Actually, about 99% of it is garbage but there are stellar artist in every style. I tend to like music that is more raw and direct and appeals to the human emotions without being manipulative. Carnatic music fits right in there with Delta blues, punk, gospel and West African music. I have some guilty pleasure pop favorites too.

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 16 Jun 2007, 17:27

I'm A Skal Man wrote:I keep talum with my feet thought. I have to do a lot of hopping on one leg for Mishra Chapu or any odd cycle:)

Hehehe.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 16 Jun 2007, 17:55

Feet are good at rhythm --- which is, I suppose the origin of dance.

It seems like a strange sort of schizo thing, but sometimes, when my hands have completely lost the tala, I realise that my feet are still following the beat!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 16 Jun 2007, 19:46

My feet are better in keeping the beat than my hands. I thought all these years that it was due to my frustration in missing out on learning bharatha natyam!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 16 Jun 2007, 22:57

The business of feet is rhythmic; except for musicians, the business of hands is much less so.

But, when we first began to walk that now-simple rhythmic activity was quite difficult for us!

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 16 Jun 2007, 23:07

Arasi - If you had tried dancing, your feet wouldn't have been so relaxed and you would have lost the battle "hands down". In my view, the hand's action is controlled by the mind when ur listening to the music. The feet are just reacting naturally without the interference of the mind. That's why your feet are doing ok. Next time, try to keep the thala consciously with the feet and let me know how it went. I wouldn't surprised if your hands emerged as the winner.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 17 Jun 2007, 03:10

Thank you, Bala. I will try that!

chalanata · Post by **chalanata** » 17 Jun 2007, 09:40

i'm a novice as far as cm and other forms of music are concerned. but one thing is puzzling. why in other forms of music people do not sing in the same pitch in which they talk?

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 17 Jun 2007, 10:16

I think in other forms the song is set to a pitch and you cannot alter it. Singing in a different pitch is different from falsetto where you are trying to reach beyond the natural range of your voice and that might look artificial compared to your speaking voice. Waiting to hear the views of experts.

shripathi_g · Post by **shripathi_g** » 17 Jun 2007, 13:52

Hey Vijay,

Chance for you to relive the moment from four years ago. - http://www.sangeethapriya.org/~sripathy ... _Part2.mp3

I apologize for the poor recording quality but that was the best I could get during that time. Unfortunately, my brother who was doing the recording, missed the first few seconds when Sanjay had us guessing whether it could be Thodi.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 17 Jun 2007, 21:16

chalanata: I don't think the premise of your question itself is correct. May be I misunderstood, please clarify. Also the implication that in CM people sing at their speaking pitch ( if there is anything like that ) is not necessarily correct. If you listen to MDR speak in a lec-dem, it is higher than his singing pitch.

sbala, what you say is probably true of western classical music.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 17 Jun 2007, 21:55

vijay wrote:Intersting to hear about the exits to the bar during drum solos! So western audiences (at least rock addicts) are no different from the average mama in kutcheries...

Vijay: It is probably not as much as in CM concerts. In non-classical concerts,the drum solos focus on speed and volume and that is appealing enough for people to stick around.

While on this topic, would a CM laya enthusiast appreciate Sivamani, the drummer of many different instruments. He definitely excels in speed and volume and the amazing ability to handle multivarious instruments and different drumming genres. From what I hear, Sivamani is a big hit among the sell out crowds at A.R. Rahman's current U.S. tour and people go nuts with his solos. Is he all speed and volume or there are enough nuances, technical prowess and subtlity of a mridangam vidwan?