Brahmins and CM

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 29 Jul 2016, 14:40

A post in FB:
Radha Bhaskar

How naive of us to think that the Brahmin community is all steeped in Karnatic music while in reality, most Brahmins today do not even know what Karnatic music is, leave alone the other communities. Even children are encouraged to learn swimming, karate, taichi, western music and so on but not Karnatic music ! Let us first come to terms with this reality and try to rectify it. We have a lot more to do within our own circle before venturing into other areas. Preserving the values of Karnatic music itself is the first challenge now - then only comes the next issue of propagating and reaching it to the masses.
To put it more blatantly, how many of us as musicians of this elite community have been able to bring our own childlren into the fold of Karnatic music and make them understand its greatness? Our heart knows the answer but we may not verbally express it ! Very sad indeed ! To begin with, let us see what we can do within our own family !
In a recent congregational singing by 10,000 children that we conducted, I was alarmed to see that in every school , there is not even a handful of children who learn Karnatic music. I am talking about the so called elite schools! Let us get our illusions corrected first and then act !

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 29 Jul 2016, 15:54

Observations of "an outsider..." (I've made most of the before, but then, this is a here-we-go-again subject

)

1. perhaps an academic point I don't know how useful it is to compare the percentage of rasikas/musicians among Brahmins with the percentage of Brahmins among rasikas/musicians. I suspect that there may be one of those logical fallacies, or some basic error in statistical study, there --- but I am not knowledgeable in either.

2. I had an argument with a non-Brahmin lady, outside a concert hall, in which she was attacking the "Brahmin domination of CM." My point of view: her beloved CM might not even have survived this long without the Brahmin community, in India, at least. And if it had faded away several decades ago, in India, I wouldn't give much for its chances elsewhere in the world.

3. but... elsewhere in the world... In UK, and maybe in some other countries, Carnatic Music thrives among the Sri Lankan communities. Off-stage, at least, there is barely a Brahmin to be seen. In fact, in my, perhaps limited, experience, the UK Indian community as a whole sees music as a chance as to be seen by Lord This, That, or The Other... ordinary concerts at temples or BVB, sans VIPs... not so much.

As an "outsider," it is my belief that the fact that the preservation and continuance of Carnatic music is a great thing, and something to be praised, not taken pot shots at. From me, at least, a hearty thank you to all that achieved it. Whoever they are.

Exclusivity and discrimination is a different matter. An octogenarian tells me that a famous foreign musician was made to wait outside the houses of certain carnatic performers. But we are not in the world of sixty years ago, and I can say for sure that this "outsider," this foreign-therefore-below-even-the-dregs-of-the-caste-system outsider has never, ever, been made to feel unwelcome, even by the elderly/orthodox. Are there still a few who would not take the untufted as students? Maybe (I don't know)... but I am sure they will still easily find other teachers if they want to learn.

Exclusivity, none the less, can be perceived. Even my wife has been known to say, "they are all Brahmins, I don't feel welcome." My answer? Very bluntly: You are wrong and if you want to think like that, it is your problem, not theirs!

So what to do about the perception of exclusivity, when, if it exists at all, it is nowhere near as common as the perceiver thinks, I really don't know. Put up welcome banners? Take music to the beaches?

...Just a few thoughts from an outsider. But, about CM, a very concerned outsider.

devan · Post by **devan** » 29 Jul 2016, 15:58

Well said,radhabhaskar. Very true.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 29 Jul 2016, 16:28

Nick,
What Radha Bhaskar says is a bit like the airplane announcement, "in case of a fall in air pressure, oxygen masks will descend automatically. Fasten your own mask, before assisting your neighbour/kid".

Carnatic music, like any classical, traditional, art, needs deep commitment and years of disciplined learning. Even then, one can reach somewhere only if one has a natural talent=samskara.

Some things in a society will work well only with universal access and experience, like air, water, road and healthcare. A cultivated learning should have egalitarian access but need not have universal espousal or practice. It is highly questionable if access to CM is restricted, preferential or non-egalitarian.

I sent out a petition some time ago to make Carnatic music compulsory in schools. There is a thread somewhere here. Many people signed it, too. Egalitarian and facilitated exposure and access. First step.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 29 Jul 2016, 16:39

How many students of CM were turned away because they are not Brahmins? How many poor people will really try to take CM as a career? For only entertainment, is CM anywhere near the other forms? Is it so easy to like CM at first hearing? I am not even an outsider in CM. I am maybe a tine-spender as I do not like many other forms of entertainment, I turn to CM. Despite long hearing, I still cannot listen if the music on offer is not of the highest order.
How can we improve the audience for CM (market)? How can we expect more production when market is limited and supply overcrowded? Is there an appreciable increase in sponsors and patrons over the years?
The niche character of CM will continue and the scene of thin attendance for most performers will not improve at least in my lifetime (I am already 69).

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 29 Jul 2016, 16:48

I made a mental calculation and guess that the global CM listeners (serious listeners who will turn to it regularly) will not be more than a million. Any idea on this?

hnbhagavan · Post by **hnbhagavan** » 29 Jul 2016, 17:32

The posts are very interesting.I think now Bramhins no longer consider CM as one of the things to be cultivated in children.In my own case(Bramhin Iyengar) if i take in total all the relatives whom i know - may be 100 (very distant ones are not considered),I am the lone customer listening to CM.Rest of the people some of them know that there is something called CM,but majority do not give even a passing thought.
As Chellappa Sir has put it CM does not figure under Things to do list-like swimming,sports,karateetc.
In some cases where children are sent for Music tuition,It is not nurtured.They are not taken to music programs.
Only in cases where the entire ancestors,parents are into music,it thrives.Very rarely ordinary communities provide any encouragement to this art.
Perhaps a small percentage of global presence -in USA,UK ,SriLanka etc apart from Chennai,Hyderabad,Mysore,Bangalore and Trivandrum.Mumbai and Delhi has some encouragement.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 29 Jul 2016, 18:03

Bhagwan,
Chellappa has posted what Radha Bhaskar has said in FB.

She should know what she's talking about. She and her husband have done nothing but nurture CM by all the work they put in as organizers and teachers over the years.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 29 Jul 2016, 18:11

Another thread speaks about the other awardee, his hands on work of thirty years, seeing the result in 'hands off' work for about thirty thousand sanitation workers, amazes us. This truly says that times may change, but catalysts of the kind of a Vinoba are still possible in the modern world we live in.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 29 Jul 2016, 18:23

Was Purandaradasa - Pitamaha of Carnatic Music a brahmin? Are all CM singers in Karnaka brahmins? Are all CM singers in Kerala Brahmins? something to ponder!!!

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 29 Jul 2016, 19:08

Why are we pondering this? Who gives a hoot what they are? Why don't we just work on getting more people to appreciate / learn / perform the music?

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 29 Jul 2016, 19:16

Because there is no bar on open discussion.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 29 Jul 2016, 19:22

I am not shutting down discussion. But some paths are fruitless unless one's aim is to roll in the mud. One can judiciously stay away from these paths. TMK loves to roll in the mud. We don't have to.

Bracing for next round of rolling in mud in thread titled "who is a brahmin"?

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 29 Jul 2016, 19:32

TMK may provide the immediate point of reference, but the topic is general. From time to time, the question arises whither CM. In VVS interview, we see him quoting SSI as saying confidently that it is a divine art and will surface somewhere or other. It is for fact that Brahmins nurtured it, but there were many other castes also. It is the legacy we carry that we should talk it in those terms. It is unfortunate that even when we want to broadbase it we must give caste the focus. Radha Bhaskar, as Arasi observes, must know what she is saying. Not many have done what Mudra has done "on getting more people to appreciate / learn / perform the music." Her views matter and worth debating. Good points have emerged here as well as in FB.
I do not see anything wrong in discussing who is a Brahmana. Cho has written a novel on it. It is the subject even in Upanishads.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 29 Jul 2016, 19:44

Radha Bhaskar makes some excellent points. She debunks the whole casteist angle & talks of preserving the art. This is a wise path to take.

Debating the caste of purandaradasa or the caste breakdown of CM in various states is the path we love to take. This is unfortunate.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 29 Jul 2016, 19:51

I do not see anything wrong in discussing who is a Brahmana. Cho has written a novel on it. It is the subject even in Upanishads.

As long as we can stipulate that they are all dead. We are all vaishyas now.

pattamaa · Post by **pattamaa** » 29 Jul 2016, 20:12

A brahmin is the one who learns veda or teach veda, and lives on whatever money he gets in that process. So, none of today's CM musicians are brahmins !! why is TMK fighting battle ?

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 29 Jul 2016, 22:44

@pattammaa If I wanted to know who is really a Brahmin as per the strictest definition of the word, I would read Ramana Maharshi. Or this : https://www.crystalclarity.com/yogananda/chap14.php

Or even this : http://www.near-death.com/reincarnation ... edict.html

But coming back down to earth and Carnatic Music, at the end of the day, music is also just like a Veda, so it's only natural that people with an artistic and intellectual bent of mind are drawn to it. Of course, when you look back at some of the things they did, like they almost completely got rid of the shringara bhava by proclaiming it "impure" and restricting the definition of bhakti from "rasaaunbhavam" to "reverence", now that is a valid argument to think about. It is true that a couple of generations ago, people were more rigid than today. Today however, one can still see vestiges of those prejudices appear on the marriage market more than anywhere else.

But then these prejudices are found all over the world, and some differences are so different that neither can coexist simultaneously.

But I do not think this was the main reason why other communities abandoned their traditional professions. If you look at the world over, the ability to learn other subjects, get into other professions and settle in other places has increased so much now compared to 200 years ago that the whole concept of "family professions" has fallen over a cliff (it still stays in private businesses and politics, but that's the exception and not the rule). I wonder if the influence of this factor was acknowledged.

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 29 Jul 2016, 23:18

Similarly for the devadasis, society would change in the 20th century and in the process the loss to the arts was huge (if we had today's technology, we would not have had that problem). The other communities stopped practicing primarily because all music was migrating to the city, royal patronage had vanished (along with that went their opportunities) and also because until recently, there never really has been much money in this field at all, which means there is a limit to how many musicians can occupy the Tier 1 status.

I have been privy to arguments that say that the alcohol problem had something to do with it and that was another form of discrimination. Discriminatory it was, but as a guy who's lived with roommates and social parties, I can tell you in excruciating detail how difficult things can get if anyone gets drunk.

More than a community problem, I have always felt that CM is best imbibed right from infancy when the mind has no other purpose except to learn and grow. In later life, I have never seen anyone cultivate a level of interest comparable to those who had had the exposure in childhood. The time, energy and willingness is no longer there by that point and by then, few people will invest in anything that they feel is just a passing hobby. Most people think I am crazy in my generation (including me, the only difference is that I like it

)

In this there are plenty of bad teachers who have very effectively driven away their students from the music.... but that is another matter.

Now here's where the community issues come in. In all other communities, CM has been effectively forgotten by not passing it on to the next generation, and I can prove it that just 2 generations after the torch ceases to be passed, a particular family will abandon it altogether. Other communities have done that, and the brahmin community isn't getting better even in families where the elders have interest in CM -- I guess it never really occurred to them or circumstances such as children settling elsewhere, prevented them from passing it on. There is an additional difficulty in putting time and energy into CM as a hobby after childhood as well, which means many families just lose touch with it over time.

This means that if CM has to sustain in a family, the elders must be good enough to teach a bit of it and expose the next generation to it enough that the interest becomes self sustaining (but never so much that the next generation gets fed up and decide that they want no more CM ever!

). At the very least, the tank must be refilled every alternate generation to keep the interest going. So elders, keep your grandchildren interested at the very least!

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 30 Jul 2016, 01:50

My wife Radhika wrote an article sometime back in Shruti (not available online) as a mild rejoinder to TM Krishna's positions

.

It can be read here:

https://www.facebook.com/notes/radhika- ... 385832403/

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 30 Jul 2016, 03:54

Sorry, an incomplete post which I deleted.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 30 Jul 2016, 03:58

Radhika,
Superb writing! Objective, and at the same time written from a personal point of view. When I say personal, I hasten to add that it will make many a rasikA agree with what you say, and where you come from. I'm not saying this because of your heritage alone. Any reasonable rasikA can find many similarities in their own approach to music here--in understanding , appreciating and wanting to live with music. The way your daughter grows up in music--with you, Uday's concerns with it as a rasikA andan innovator speaks of what your love and concerns are.

I want to read it again, because it makes so much sense.

Your points are forged in clarity, but are worded as delicately and gently as I find you to be

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 30 Jul 2016, 06:33

Uday_Shankar, kudos to your wife for such revealing article.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 30 Jul 2016, 09:10

Even VEda Vyasa was not of a Brahmin caste - he was an illegitimate child by societal norms. So lets just get on with it!!

When people of Brahmin caste who were given the Gayathri - the chandasAm mAta - who herself is the name given to a Chandas, made a walk out of Mridangam tani - they did not have a clue what they were walking out of. Indriya nigraham (Control of the senses) at the most minimal level was given a short shrift. So when they are told that compositions all have Bhakti themes and that is becoming problematic - will they have a clue on how to parse it?

On top of it one Mridangist wrote in the forum early part of this millenium that the remuneration was not even enough to maintain the instrument for the next concert!

Caste diversity of the past apart - when it was their endowment - how sacredly did they treat it?

When Vidura meets Uddava after Sri Krishna leaves earthly body (BramhaSri Sundar Kumar KGS 1992/1993 Sri Krishna Hridayam), Uddava asks how many of his Bhaktas ( Arjuna, BhiShma, AkrUra, Yudhishtira) really treated him and knew him well. He lists instances to state the contrary.

How many temples are built with non-howling auditoriums with enough absorption material in NA? We beg cities, churches to give us space. The Church that provides space to us here in Dallas accepts Unity Consciousness as I found out when I did the Art of Living course there.

I am pained and saddened to see this now : https://www.change.org/p/dfw-hindu-temp ... -thriving/

We have not shamed the richer amongst us ( to quote the outgoing RBI governor R3) enough to ask them to pay up for it.

This is not just about CM and it's rasikas. Whatever is going to be done is going to represent the philology of an entire civilization! Image of our (not just Brahmin ) children as they walk on the street, jog in the park, enter universities , corporates, board rooms are all under the stake!

Still we act as if tirumanjana vEEti was day before yesterday, and we urbanized only yesterday and our musicians must espouse tyAgaraja's ideal today - at the same time for everything else we dismiss it as " those are old times" - adu anda kAlam!

The only arangEtram of a non brahmin kid I have attended is a Girl of Sri Lankan origin from the land of Ravana the vaiNika, playing the vInA. Diaspora effect - they are ancient diasporas who also happen to be a diaspora of today.

We bring all our modern rational thought to discuss this - but we haven't done our own philology of the past! The ivy-leagues have made a start here:

http://thewire.in/47830/t-m-krishna-and ... art-music/

- Sheldon Pollock's guys are starting to unravel.

You can see me commenting there too

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 30 Jul 2016, 10:10

Feeling bad for Radhika and other such folk who go through such great lengths to defend themselves almost apologetically against the mass drive-by character assassination done by TMK's wayward writing.

bala747 · Post by **bala747** » 30 Jul 2016, 10:29

My wife, a Tamil Muslim from the Rowther community (and some Afghan and Malay blood in there somewhere), tried to learn violin when she was younger.

Her parents forbade it, so she had to learn it in secret. She would give tuitions to earn enough pay for her class fees.

But neither of my kids are introduced to CM. Why? Because I feel it has become formulaic, hackneyed and to be honest is a dying art because of the lack of innovation in the art form since the 1900's. Either that, or it is just innovation for the sake of being different. What is the point of learning the art from a guru when the spirit of the artform has been lost? The way the music is taught has completely eroded the concept of the raga as a vehicle for expressing mood. Every thodi sounds the same. Every concert is the same. Is there even such a thing as a bhani anymore?

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 30 Jul 2016, 11:15

My take on a few of the points mentioned in that article in Wired :

Take, for instance, the idea that the most important element of a vocalist’s performance is their bhava. Bhava, which can be loosely translated as ‘mood’, is a concept from the Natya Shastra, the 5th century Sanskrit treatise attributed to the sage Bharata, to which the more mainstream of our ‘classical’ arts, from Bharatanatyam (emphasis intentional) to Hindustani music, all seem desperate to trace their origins. In the context of Carnatic music, the concept of bhava makes singers akin to actors. When they sing a Tyagaraja keertan (devotional song), they are supposed to convey the saint’s piety and devotion – convey, in other words, the meaning of the lyrics.

This, to Krishna, is a denial of the essentially abstract nature of music. One listens, he says, not to the words but to the sound of the words. Even more importantly, one listens to the sounds that aren’t words at all: the percussion, the violin, the vocalist’s hums and wails, the meaningless syllables that are used to improvise (‘ta’, ‘da’, ‘ri’ and so on). One listens not for a reenactment of Tyagaraj himself but for the individual singer’s musical talent. This, Krishna argues, is most manifest in manodharma, or improvisation within the raga and rhythmic structure. The most novel, sophisticated sounds in Carnatic music are improvised.

This exists in all forms of classical music in different forms. Bach and Baroque music for example has always been a point of contention and it has led to two schools, one based on contemporary interpretation of old works, and one that attempts to be more historically accurate in terms of instruments and the aesthetics of Baroque style. Thyagaraja for one is a very personal composer who experiences for you, while Dikshitar prefers to describe and gives you more freedom to go out there and do the experiencing (but again to someone from another culture, Dikshitar will be as alien as Thyagaraja). However, the author has curiously not mentioned Dikshitar. The real problem seems to be the lack of opportunity for manodharma and the total lack of attention we pay to the tonal colours of our music.

Also, if our music was once intimately entwined with dance

Before Carnatic and Bharatanatyam there was Sadir, the dance form practiced by three communities: the Brahmins, the Icai Vellalars and the Devdasis. Music and dance were performed together, the vocalist didn’t possess the kind of centrality he or she does today and the form as a whole was more improvisatory

But I think this refers to only one type of musician. Solo musicians did exist, and back in the day they performed more manodharma based music and often sang their own compositions. Today's vocalist has to do both these roles and that at times creates a clash between one's own experience and that of the composer, so it's only natural and honest for them to try sing it the way they experience it. Here I should point out that the audience also experiences music according to their own perceptions, if our reviews section was any indication. Bach is no different from Thyagaraja in this matter, and musicians all over the world have faced the issue of their expression vs the composer's.

Tyagaraja is the pivot around which current musical practice turns, and the result is a ‘Brahminised’ music. We see it in the ubiquity of his compositions, in the decor of the halls in which Carnatic music is performed (the om symbols in white paint on the walls, the portraits of aged, fair men, shirtless and draped in cloth, three white lines on the forehead, crosslegged, rail-thin or potbellied), in the food at the sabha canteens (which, don’t get me wrong, is excellent) and in the politics of the community (which, unsurprisingly, consists mostly of BJP supporters). Carnatic music culture perpetuates and maintains caste and class hierarchies. By positioning itself as our ‘classical’ music it stratifies demarcations between high and low culture.

WTH is this?

To show the British that we too had ‘classical’ music, it had to be classicism (which is why it is notated the way it is today).

Nobody uses staff notation for CM now AFAIK.

To establish distance from the orientalist stereotypes of sensuality and debauchery, it had to be cleansed of its associations with the physical and made ‘spiritual’

Ok I agree here that they took out the rasas and replaced it with reverence and that we have been influenced more by the Victorian era's so called "puritan" principles than what we would admit. But hey, we are a shy country that's soon going to be the most populous in the world, we better admit that. And yes, it is true that the devadasi system while supporting the art forms, really didn't allow them to integrate with society as normal people, leading to the very problems that caused it's abolition.

There is also one other factor, and it has nothing to do with being really shy or dishonest with our human needs. As far as Shringara is concerned, the reality is that the arts can now never compete with the film industry in this matter, which did it's part to take it away and own it for itself.

At this point I should point out that Rajaji did try in 1953 to ensure that hereditary professions were encouraged while providing access to conventional education, but the idea was seen as a means of encouraging the caste system by the same politicians and vehemently shot down, leading to him stepping down as President of the Madras Legislature Congress Party. The irony was that it created a different kind of caste based vote bank politics and discrimination of a different kind, leading indirectly to the creation of the very NRI based backing of CM that is strangely being protested by the same politically conscious souls who supported it. Oh the irony of it!

Let there be no doubt on this, politics claims to exist for the larger society, yet in no other field are individual interests as paramount as in politics. No one can survive there who doesn't put oneself first. One may read the 48 laws of power in this regard.

Always_Evolving · Post by **Always_Evolving** » 30 Jul 2016, 11:46

Arasi: Thank you for the sweetly worded compliments. I am touched.

I grew up internalizing quite a bit of Brahmin chauvinism. And this plays out in me -- and in my Brahmin community in so many subtle ways. There must be a lot of the "old boys club" mentality in the sabha organizer and musician circles that continues to decide who gets prime time, and so on. I am sure that over the last few decades there are many cases of subtle and not-so subtle biases creeping into the system. The Palghat Mani and Palani Subramaniam Pillai story, and the experiences of present day non-Brahmin musicians should be understood by us. I have observed first hand that artists from non-Brahmin backgrounds co-opt the lingo and mores of Brahmins, for e.g. addressing people as mama/ mami and I for one wish for more diversity. It would be wonderful if they could assert their own cultural backgrounds than subtly adopt the "if you can't beat them, join them" establishment ways. While we are examining the biases inherent in the system though, my question is does it all add up to a systematic or deliberate plan to dominate the art.

Some of this might sound like "same side goal" to some of you. I am not actually defending the Carnatic establishment and taking a polar opposite position to TM Krishna. We have to look at this in a more nuanced way than just saying "oh whoever refused to teach someone because of their caste" and such other defences. We have to look at what are the subtle factors that have gone into making this art so Brahmin dominated and does it really have to be. I do maintain though that there are many other factors that have contributed and we Brahmins need not be flagellating ourselves. Class and caste in any case cannot be black and white topics where one group can be scapegoated; all parties (including the political ones!) need to take responsibility for their role in the present situation.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 30 Jul 2016, 12:24

bala747 wrote: But neither of my kids are introduced to CM. Why? Because I feel it has become formulaic, hackneyed and to be honest is a dying art because of the lack of innovation in the art form since the 1900's. Either that, or it is just innovation for the sake of being different. What is the point of learning the art from a guru when the spirit of the artform has been lost? The way the music is taught has completely eroded the concept of the raga as a vehicle for expressing mood. Every thodi sounds the same. Every concert is the same. Is there even such a thing as a bhani anymore?

First of all, it is not a dying art. It is just dying inside your family.

Secondly there is plenty of innovation and subgenres of CM that are quite the rage. They may not be as successful as we want, but they are dedicated and they are innovating and if you care to look, you can find them.

Every thodi is not the same. Every Hemavathi or every vachaspathi is not the same. Just heard a fantastic hemavathi on the violin at Kalakshetra yesterday. Don't even know the name of the violinist but will find it and post it here. It was quite off beat and had never before heard sancharas. But you may have to sit thru a few dozen before u can start making things out.Things are not going to jump out at you and scream that they are different like in film music.

Banis take time to establish themselves. You cannot make one every week. That banis are still recognizable (did u attend the Upendran day fest?) long after their proponents are gone are testimony
to their immortality.

PS: Newspaper says violinist was V.V.Srinavasa Rao. Great accompaniment yesterday esp. Hemavathi alap.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 30 Jul 2016, 15:58

uday_shankar wrote:My wife Radhika wrote an article sometime back in Shruti (not available online) as a mild rejoinder to TM Krishna's positions .

Fascinating. Please thank her from me. It is a pity that she does not get at least the same opportunity of publication that her friend gets. I cannot speak of music, as I have never heard her sing, but I know who is the better writer!

Always_Evolving · Post by **Always_Evolving** » 30 Jul 2016, 16:55

Haha Nick! Thank you but I cannot be considered musically accomplished even within my family. TM Krishna is an amazing musician

-Radhika

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 30 Jul 2016, 17:11

Tomorrow Paalam is webcasting an interview with Subhasree Thanikachalam. She is doing a great service in taking CM in various ways to a larger audience and also in motivating youngsters. She does it with no rancour and without bringing in non-musical ideas into music.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 30 Jul 2016, 17:13

*deleted*

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 30 Jul 2016, 17:18

deleted/

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 30 Jul 2016, 18:21

How about Lord Rama - was the Lord Brahmin?

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 30 Jul 2016, 19:15

Always_Evolving wrote:Haha Nick! Thank you but I cannot be considered musically accomplished even within my family. TM Krishna is an amazing musician

-Radhika

I had forgotten that this is you, yourself... in person! And yes I agree.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 30 Jul 2016, 20:24

SrinathK wrote:There is also one other factor, and it has nothing to do with being really shy or dishonest with our human needs. As far as Shringara is concerned, the reality is that the arts can now never compete with the film industry in this matter, which did it's part to take it away and own it for itself

It is somewhat being packaged back into the dance Arena. The Dance drama performances last year from this duo http://www.shijithnambiar.co.in/the-duo.html almost looked like an old Movie enact!

Nothing wrong - we need this injected back into tradition. As younger and younger artistes accomplish early and gain appreciation this should no more be a problem.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 30 Jul 2016, 20:29

SRngAraka mESa vRScika rASyAdhipatim!!

A nice video that shows all his forms: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcfVQ-rDhrU

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 31 Jul 2016, 02:43

posted in 'Unshackling..' thread.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 31 Jul 2016, 02:44

In the TMK in Conversation with Sadanand Menon - a gentlemen poses a question why MSS could not have done something etc. To which the reply is : MSS was an institution run by a family, a pan Indian symbol , not a movement.

The real institutions were the grammarians of CM Establishment stipulating what is classical on the one hand - and JNU professors who were institutionalizing their vision of society through History writing - very much biased against Sanskriti.

We came home from both and listened to her Bhaja Govindam and Nahi Nahi rakshati dukrinkaraNE. She was indeed the movement for the times - even as she catered to classicists requirements - when the priority and struggle was to get a foot hold on ones life in the infancy of a politically Independent India. Could SRngara ever worked as a priority then?

As Ubhaya Vedanta Sri Velukudi Krishnan explained his recent visit to Dallas - Bhoga cannot be through Bhoga - but should be through Yoga. Sage Viswamitra had a 1000 year Bhoga with Menaka but then he performed a 1000 year Tapas. Tradition has materialism built into it beyond our imagination - all the way up to Indra padavi.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 31 Jul 2016, 05:19

Kaama, Krotha, lobha, moha, Mata, maatsarya including materialism as depicted in Gods and Devaas are meant for mortal human beings. Let us not justify that as normal for us. IMHO.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 31 Jul 2016, 05:47

VK RAMAN wrote:Kaama, Krotha, lobha, moha, Mata, maatsarya including materialism as depicted in Gods and Devaas are meant for mortal human beings. Let us not justify that as normal for us. IMHO.

I left out what else he said: He enjoined all of us to practice celibacy.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 31 Jul 2016, 06:03

VK RAMAN wrote:How about Lord Rama - was the Lord Brahmin?

Rama are two syllables "Ra Ma". Valmiki started moving his jaw bones with its Anagram "Ma Ra" for a long time. That is a Chandas by itself.

In our zeal we claim straight access - and forget that there are Acharyas to begin with. They are are not mediators though. We have this imported concept called God. All we are told about tyAgaraja is that he was rAma Bhakta. So we walk out when the song and swaras are finished. I wonder why we sit through the swaras - Oh ! it ends with the song line huh..

Here is another one from Velukudi. My Colleague who would otherwise be a willing listener to discourses said he will not attend that day.

Reason: Velukudi did not answer him ( during his 9th grade) why birthdays for Rama and Krishna are celebrated on tithis and not nakshatras like us mortals. Instead asked him a terse question as to who is his Acharya? My friend did not know how to respond. Velukudi asked him to find that first.

When I heard this - being a Chandas hog in this forum - I grabbed the opportunity to tell him - he is asking you to find out who moved your jaw bones first.

I also then reminisced about a Temple event when little Girls were singing in the Sannidhi - a family with boy who had verbal disability was praying - the boy suddenly yelled - making me realize the importance of it.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 31 Jul 2016, 07:27

Shankarank,
Good story.
Children! They make us focus on things we have long forgotten to pay attention to

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 31 Jul 2016, 11:07

In the TMK in Conversation with Sadanand Menon - a gentlemen poses a question why MSS could not have done something etc. To which the reply is : MSS was an institution run by a family, a pan Indian symbol , not a movement.

What was the question exactly and in what context was it asked?

I thought MSS did enough to get a Bharat Ratna, but alas, it fell short!

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 31 Jul 2016, 18:21

It was interesting to listen to Subhasree Thanikachalam on paalam. It is amazing the way she has done many things to take CM in novel ways to a larger scale across the world. She quoted Sanjay, ‘Why do you want to take it to the masses? What we do in king’s court, we cannot do in a playground.’ This is of course one view, with which my heart aligns.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 31 Jul 2016, 20:14

Now, Sanjay is known to quip around when 'serious' questions are asked (his seriousness about music apart), and Subhasree tends to bring out that mood in him in full strength, as we have seen him do in the MMU concerts every year. Once, after saying that musicians are not like other professionals in what they do, but are able to carry on their profession because of rasikas, organizers and sponsors. They need no unions. Good point. Then, to emphasize it he says (quips): engaLaip pOi sivappuk koDi piDikka sonRIngaLA? Do you expect us to go protest with red flags as union workers do?

Now, here's someone who thinks about his 'business' seriously, also wishes to have (and has) fun with it. He hopes that we do too. Fun, joy, enrichment, whatever. Yet, his resorting to humor of this sort lends itself to misinterpretations, I think. King's court (could make one perceive him as an elitist). Playground, which stands for children lends itself to a response that he's not concerned with CM reaching them (which
is not his belief!).

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 31 Jul 2016, 21:03

A further post by Mrs. Radha Bhaskar:
"My earlier post has nothing to do with caste or any individual. It is all about my concern that Karnatic music itself is facing challenges for its survival even in the community which is supposed to have patronised it. It is time we did something to first remedy this. We are escaping from problems within our sight & trying to solve some problem which never actually was there. Did any dalit come & lament to you that he has been banned from listening to karnatic music ?Well, he may not even know what karnatic music is & that is another different matter ! For him, listening to music itself is a luxury amidst the question of survival.So, by organising one festival a year in some remote slum,if we think we are reaching Karnatic music to all and enlightening & educating them & making them inclusive, it is the height of naiveness. This movement requires the involvement of thousands of people on a 24/7 basis for several years to see even a ray of result. Which musician has the time & dedication to do this ? Let us not pat each other's back and pacify ourselves. Ideologies & reality are different....... I am saying this after practically experiencing it, not adhoc statements!"

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 31 Jul 2016, 23:48

arasi wrote: Yet, his resorting to humor of this sort lends itself to misinterpretations, I think. King's court (could make one perceive him as an elitist). Playground, which stands for children lends itself to a response that he's not concerned with CM reaching them (which
is not his belief!).

Only if you take metaphors literally.

Also many believe that CM does not have to "reach" anybody. And there will always be people "reaching" for CM. And that people have been bemoaning the demise of CM forever.

Today's tamil (telugu/kannada/malayalam) film music is just CM trying to reach out to everybody. It comes at a cost. Malayalam may be trying to reach out to fewer people

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 01 Aug 2016, 04:18

Sureshvv,
Agree wholeheartedly with you...

Along with CM, let's look at humor as it affects different folks. Some take things literally and misinterpret statements like this, some are so serious they frown upon them as his being trivial, others take offence that in their view, bhakti bhAVa in CM is disregarded

To many of us, Sanjay is a musician, a mighty serious one at that. As rasikAs, we like to hear him, and he delivers the goods as a professional, and nothing else matters. Oh, I also like his ready wit...