Learning the carnatic violin

[cacophonix]

Hello everyone,
Although I've been listening to Carnatic music for some years, I have no theoretical background or formal training in it. I don't come from a musically inclined family. However, I've decided that I want to start learning to play the carnatic violin. I guess I have two questions.

1) I live in Los Angeles, and have not been able to find any resources or teachers in the area. I'd really appreciate it if someone could point me at a carnatic music (esp violin) teacher in LA. Are there any online lessons to get started with the carnatic violin?

2) Is the carnatic violin very different from its western counterpart, or can one play carnatic music on a western violin. I'm looking to buy a cheaper "starter" violin to get started.

Thanks,
Cacophonix

[sankirnam]

Did you come to the Dikshitar Day aradhana in LA yesterday? You would have/might have met several of the other violinsts in the area, they could have helped you out.

[cacophonix]

I'm afraid I missed it. Is there a directory that lists such events? Meanwhile, I'd be grateful to any violinists out here who can give me an opinion on my second question.

[Suji Ram]

Hello everyone,
2) Is the carnatic violin very different from its western counterpart, or can one play carnatic music on a western violin. I'm looking to buy a cheaper "starter" violin to get started.

Thanks,
Cacophonix

A violin is a violin......no difference. Only the way the strings are tuned is different.
However quality matters. A german make is the best, but expensive.

[gn.sn42]

cacaphonix,

Someone here may be able to help you:

http://www.geocities.com/southindianmusicacademy/

Good luck!

[cacophonix]

Suji Ram and gn.sn42, your input is much appreciated. Thank you!

[msakella]

A german make is the best.

Dear brother/sister-member, sujiram, Don’t think that German brand Violin is only the best. Nowadays, Violins of good quality are being manufactuired in our country also. Don’t run after brand-violins, quality only matters. amsharma.

[rasaali]

Cacophonix,

Since you are living in the US, one option for getting an instrument would be to lease one. Most respectable music stores do that. You pay a monthly lease and if you decide to buy the instrument those monthly amounts get counted as payment towards the final price. You may need to buy some insurance too but usually it is pretty moderate.

There is an online store calledd www.sharmusic.com which is a leading resource for violin. However if you find a teacher, it is better to go with what they say. IMHO it is better to try out a few instruments in person rather than ordering online.

I have even bought a $60 violin on ebay but obviously that sort of thing is a total bet. It was okay for a beginner.

To akellaji's point you dont necessarily need a German violin . In US stores you will find any number of good Chinese violins too that are great for even advanced students.

Good luck!

[Sam Swaminathan]

Amsharma garu...

I have two violins, one, czech make and the other I recently brought from India. Only after playing on both of them, did I realise, that the indian one is sounding nasal while the czech one sounds perfect. Can you please suggest me a remedy for this? thanks and regards. Sam

[msakella]

Dear brother-member, SamSwaminathan, As our brother-member, rasaali, put it and as you have already had two Violins you need not purchase a 3rd Violin at all. When you yourself are saying that your Czech Violin is sounding perfect what more do you need, I don’t understand. Shall I suggest you something to make the Czech violin also imperfect or to make the other Violin also perfect in sound? Tell me what you need. Generally, the sound of the Violin, mostly, depends upon the adjustment of the ‘wooden-sound-post’ which is inside the Violin just beneath the bridge. Even though some of the Violin experts tell that the ‘sound-post’ should be fixed just few milli-metres back of the right foot of the bridge, I, having experimented in so many ways, have found that the ‘sound-post’ should be kept just beneath the right foot of the bridge adjusting it while playing the instrument and listening to the sounds of different notes of different Ragas. Your Violin teacher should be able to adjudge the sound of the Violin and adjust the ‘sound-post’ accordingly. Most unfortunately, many manufacturers of our country are supplying Violins with ‘already-pasted-sound-post’ applying some adhesive. Such Violins should never be purchased at all. The Violin teacher should select the Violin having possibility to adjust the ‘sound-post’. The Chinese Violins are generally supplied without pasting the ‘sound-post’. Tell me what you need. amsharma.

[Sam Swaminathan]

Sharmaji....I will get the sound post checked as to its position and try again. Thank you very much for the advice. Regards..... Sam

[Priya]

Dear Akellaji,

Could you please help me out my telling me what the western note equivalents of

the 4 violin string tones are called, i.e. from left to right....low S, low P, Madhya S, and P.

If a western classical musciian who doesn't know anything about the karnatic style of tuning a violin is asked to tune a violin to the karnatic style, i.e. sa -pa- sa-pa....what western note equivalent ( c, g, etc etc) exactly should they be told to tune the strings to ?

thanks in advance.

regards.

[msakella]

Dear (presumably) sister-member, Priya, According to the western system of tuning the Violin Strings should start counting them from the string taking the highest-pitch towards the strings gradually in decreasing order of lowest-pitch. So, correspondingly in the tuning of our Karnataka music, we have to count them from right to left i.e., Madhya ‘P’, Madhya ‘S’, Mandra ‘P’ and Mandra ‘S’ but not from left to right as you wrote. Please mind that. In the wetern tuning of Violin they tune the 1st string in the right extreme to ‘E’ which is our corresponding Madhya ‘P’, the next 2nd string to ‘A’ which is our Madhya ‘S’, the next 3rd string to ‘D’ which is our Mandra ‘P’ and the next 4th string to ‘G’ which is our Mandra ‘S’. Here is one very important point to note - they always tune to ‘C’ of the pitch-pipe which is equivalent to our 1-Shruti and they never change it whenever they want any other pitch in which way we change the tune every time for each and every Shruti i.e., 1, 1 ½ , 2, 2 ½, 3 (no 3 ½), 4 and so on. They are always used to tune and play in only one pitch but change the fingering according to the required pitch. In fact, such things could only be demonstrated but not narrated in words. The impact of giving a sweet is much more than listening to a 1 hr. lecture about it. Hope you follow my point. However, you can ask me any doubt. With best wishes, amsharma.

[Suji Ram]

Dear Akellaji,

Could you please help me out my telling me what the western note equivalents of

the 4 violin string tones are called, i.e. from left to right....low S, low P, Madhya S, and P.

If a western classical musciian who doesn't know anything about the karnatic style of tuning a violin is asked to tune a violin to the karnatic style, i.e. sa -pa- sa-pa....what western note equivalent ( c, g, etc etc) exactly should they be told to tune the strings to ?

thanks in advance.

regards.

Akella garu has nicely explained.

One combination one can use is C, G, C ,G, starting from left to right. This gives the distance between Sa and Pa in our system
I use D # (also called E flat), B flat D # B flat

[Priya]

Thankyou very much for the information and clarification Akellaji and Suji Ram,

that was very educational and really helped. I am trying to help a friend get his violin tuned to the karnatic style by a western classical musician who is the only violinist he has access to : )

Just need a little clarification...so if the equivalent for

mandra s - mandra p - madhya s - madya p is C- G - C - G.....is there another term for the "low C" (mandra S) vs. the "madya C" ? : )

I'm a little confused as in I want to know how I can differentiate the mandra S and madya S in the western equivalent because I need to be able to say...okay you have 4 strings...get the left most one tuned to .......western note, get the 2nd string tuned to ....western note, etc..

[mohan]

low S, low P, Madhya S, and P.

From C (sruti 1) this would be:
C one octave below Middle C
G below middle C
Middle C
and G

From Eb it would be (sruti 2.5)
Eb below Middle C
Bb below middle C
Eb
and Bb

[Priya]

so can I say ...get your violin tuned to this:



leftmost string - Mandra Sa = G

then Mandra P = D

then Madya S = A

and Madya P = E ?

just clarifying. thankyou so much.

[Priya]

oh thankyou mohan, that clarifies things a bit.

[Babu Nair]

Hello everyone,
Although I've been listening to Carnatic music for some years, I have no theoretical background or formal training in it. I don't come from a musically inclined family. However, I've decided that I want to start learning to play the carnatic violin. I guess I have two questions.

1) I live in Los Angeles, and have not been able to find any resources or teachers in the area. I'd really appreciate it if someone could point me at a carnatic music (esp violin) teacher in LA. Are there any online lessons to get started with the carnatic violin?

2) Is the carnatic violin very different from its western counterpart, or can one play carnatic music on a western violin. I'm looking to buy a cheaper "starter" violin to get started.

Thanks,
Cacophonix

Priya, you will get a fair idea about carnatic music from this URL.

[Babu Nair]

sorry, I forgot to paste the URL: http://www.karnatik.com/geetams.shtml

[mohan]

Using Scientific Pitch Notation (see http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory1.htm#uspitch) the notes would be written:

Sruti 1: C3 G3 C4 G4
Sruti 5: G3 D4 G4 D5

[Priya]

thankyou mohan fir the more detailed theoretical clarification : )

thanks babu, i was aware of that website, I already reffered him to it.

[msakella]

Dear sister-member, Priya, I shall herunder give the main points separately:
Western system:
Strings are tuned in Panchama-bhaava from left to right – G, D, A & E i.e., in our corresponding terms the 1st ‘G’ is Mandra ‘S’, the 2nd ‘D’ is Panchama to the previous ‘G’, the 3rd ‘A’ is Panchama to the previous ‘D’ and the 4th ‘E’ is Panchama of the previous ‘A’ – thus they tune the strings from left to right in Panchama-bhaava, G, D, A & E which are our corresponding Sa, Pa, Ri & Dha. But, according to their system, as the strings have to be counted from the higher-pitch to the lower-pitch they call them E, A, D & G. Their violins are always tuned to ‘C’ (our 1-shruti). They will not change the tuning of strings whenever the Shruti changes like in our system.
Indian system:
Generally, we count the strings from left to right and always, from left to right, we tune the strings to Mandra ‘S’, Mandra ‘P’, Madhya ‘S’ and Madhya ‘P’. From left to right, in their terms pertaining to the starting note ‘C’, our notes should be called C, G, C & G and in these two groups of C & G the 2nd group always is of the upper octave in our system, in their terms pertaining to the starting note ‘D’, which is our 2-shruti, they should be called D, A, D & A and in these two groups of D & A the 2nd group always is of the upper octave. Thus, we change the pitch of our strings whenever the Shruti changes which they will not do.
In fact, this is more easily understandable if it is demonstrated. Still, if you are unable to understand, tell me and I shall try to find another way to make you understand, as I feel it as my duty to make you understand as a TEACHER. With best wishes, amsharma.

[Priya]

Thank you very much for such a detailed explanation Akellagaru.

I very much appreciate it and am so glad to know that if I have a violin query, that I can rely on

artists like yourself for clarification. thank you once again.

regards.

[Babu Nair]

Hi everybody, can you tell me where from i get varisas of various ragas like mohanam, kalyani, Shudda saveri, Bilahari etc. Basically we are learning varisas of 15th melakartha mayamalava gaula.

[gowri narayanan]

babu
i think once u are taught the varisais in mayamalavagowla and the arohanam and avarohanams of the ragas u have mentioned u have to play/sing and practise the varisais just like MMG.i don't think varisais in these ragas are available anywhere unless someone has done it very recently.

[msakella]

Dear brother-member, Babu Nair, If you just keenly observe and analyse the varisas in Mayamalavagoula you have already learnt you can yourself formulate the varisas in ragas having karma-arohana & avarohana i.e., without any twists of notes.
For example, if you sing the varisas you have already learnt in Mayamalavagoula in terms of serial numbers as furnished hereunder you can arrive at an idea.

1. s r g m p d n s - s n d p m g r s
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 - 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1

2. s r g m s r g m - s r g m p d n s
1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
s n d p s n d p - s n p p m g r s
8 7 6 5 8 7 6 5 - 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1

3. s r g m s r s r - s r g m p d n s
1 2 3 4 1 2 1 2 - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
s n d p s n s n - s n d p m g r s
8 7 6 5 8 7 8 7 – 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1

In the same manner for Kalyani with 8 notes, Mohana and Shuddhasaveri with 5 notes you can formulate the required varisas with the required number of notes. But for Bilahari, as the Arohana and Avarohana have a twist, it is not desirable to sing or play varisas in that Raga. Take any Raga without having any twists in its Arohana or Avarohana and formulate such varisas in the same manner. With best wishes, amsharma.
(Sorry, after typing them, they are taking another shape!)

(Moderator Edit: Lined up the swaras and numbers using spaces instead of tabs)

[radharajan]

can any body tell me where can i get violin strings in NJ/Newyork area? thanks in advance.
regards,
radharajan

[meena]

radharajan

try the yellow pages- music supplies stores

[Babu Nair]

Dear Ms. Gowri & Mr. Sharma (msakella), Thank you very much for your detailed explanation. When I spoke to Shri Kaavalam Sreekumar (a notable carnatic vocalist) couple of months back, he advised me regular practice of difficult notes will help for proficiency in violin-I am learning violin. So I thought if varisas of other ragas are readly available it will help me. Anyway, i have recd. some clue from msakella. thank you very much again.

[vasanthakokilam]

radharajan, try the yellow pages- music supplies stores

Or its online cousin, local search like what yahoo and google offers. For yahoo, it is http://local.yahoo.com

(http://local.yahoo.com/results;_ylt=Ak7 ... Jersey&fr=)

[radharajan]

meena! thanks a lot.
with regards,
radharajan

[msakella]

Dear brother-member, Babu Nair, Obtaining proficiency in Violin play is not that easy at all. It is always desirable to start learning Violin-play between 8 and 10 yrs. of age and even before 15 yrs. of age much of its learning should be completed. Aspirants who start learning Violin above the age of 20 yrs. need not even dream about it. In playing Violin all notes are equally difficult. While a Veena player should not feel the frets at all even though the frets are readily available a Violin player must feel the frets even in the absence of them. There are some very important techniques in Violin- play to be adapted both for the right and the left hands but they should only be taught in person and the teacher should be more vigilant while teaching them to the student. Bringing all those details here is not at all possible. amsharma.

[coolkarni]

A violin is a violin......no difference. Only the way the strings are tuned is different.
However quality matters. A german make is the best, but expensive

SujiRam
Shortly after the First World War, Fritz Kreisler was scheduled to perform in London.
And in the Engagements section , the London Times critic, wrote quite pompously:
Coming Saturday, when Kreisler plays at ..... , the elite of London will attend to hear the strains of that magnificent Stradivari Violin, and not the man who fought under an Austrian Uniform.
After the concert opened , Kreisler played a short opening composition and received a standing ovation.Not one Londoner was seated.
And then...
Kreisler broke that violin on his knees and threw it aside.
And said
"That was a Violin I bought at Picadilly yesterday for 2 Pounds and not my Stradivari.Which I will play from now on.This should probably help you all to decide whether to stay back for the rest of the concert.."

A Violin is a Violin , no difference.Yes indeed.