Name Recognition Paradox - a Clinical Trial

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 19 Mar 2010, 21:45

During my acedemically active days I was busily engaged in conducting a number of clinical trials. In fact the success of modern medical practice is highly dependant on unbiassed clinical trials.
Hence I was tempted to try my skills in regard to Rasika appreciation of CM.

First let me outline the limitations.
This is not a RCT (Randomized Clinical Trial).
This is single blind (not double-blind) meaning that I as the administrator knew what I was purveying.
There was no replication, meaning that this is a single trial. I encourage other Rasikas to replicate the trial to confirm my findings.
The sample size is too small for any meaningful statistical analysis. Of course replication by other rasikas will increase the credibility of the findings and we can carrry out a 'Meta Analysis'.

Hence consider this just a pilot study or Stage I clinical trial...

Purpose: To test whether the name recognition of an artiste influences Rasikas appreciation of CM.

In other words Does knowing the identity of the Performer and the preconceived notions about his excellence (either personal or through peer influence) vitiate the judgement about his performance in subsequent concerts. In short whether there is a 'Hero Worship' effect. Or that Rasika appreciations of CM are mostly subjective and not objective.

This has serious consequences to the advancement of young and upcoming artistes who intrinsically do not get appreciated but only due to the reputation of their Guru.

Method: I assembled three well-versed Rasikas (all male past middle age) and invited them to listen to a concert of a old veteran (I will nnot reveal any names). In fact I played the concert of a recent vocalist whose voice was similar to the old veteran. He had no connection or relation to the veteran by way of guru-lineage. The concert was indeed mediocre. But even during the concert the appreciation by the Rasikas was profuse and overwhelming. After the conclusion they were unanimously of the opinion that 'Old is Gold' and that CM has deteriorated these days. Finally when I revealed that the performer was an unknown recent artiste they vehemently denied; two of them even claimed that they suspected all along that the veteran was not in his usual form. But then they all wanted to congratulate the new artiste who was following the veteran's pANi.

Now on a second occasion (after a lapse of more than a month) I invited the same Rasikas to listen to a concert of the same veteran. This time they were quite wary. I did play for them one of the old recording of the veteran (which again was an average one). They uniformly criticized the artiste (about shruti/tala lapses and even padaantharam) and claimed that I was still trying to fool them. When I revealed that it was indeed the old veteran they were quite shocked.

They all agreed that 'name recognition' seriously biasses their appreciation of CM.

You may like to try this experiment at your end and do report your findings.
IMHO this has serious consequence to the propagation and progress of CM in future.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 19 Mar 2010, 22:09

This empherical study definitely proves that hero-worship including favorable bias towards hero trained disciple exists. This is like South Indians going to Paris and then looking for South Indian restaurant for their lunch, dinner and tiffin instead trying European cuisine. Unknown artists are greek to the rasikas and will not even give a lending ear for appreciation. This is also true in Sampradaya bhajans where people keep looking for OS Sunder, Kalyanaraman, etc.

Music · Post by **Music** » 19 Mar 2010, 22:33

What an interesting study! I would readily believe name recognition biases CM appreciation.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 19 Mar 2010, 22:51

It was on this very forum that I read of an experiment by an American newspaper. They took a top-name solo violinist and had him play, as a common busker, on a railway station...

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 24 Mar 2010, 21:27

On the basis of my small investigation my advice to the younger generation (both performers and rasikas) is
1. Go with your heart. If you like something pursue that and do not go by the so-called advice or recommendations especially of the oldies!
2. Don't be influenced by peer pressure. One man's/woman's food is another's poison.
3. Don't hesitate experimenting on your own. You have every right to be counted on your own.
4. Don't be influenced by the reviews that appear in the dailies. Some do have an axe to grind. Our Forum reviews are much better ( but some are prejudiced

but most are objective and unbiassed!
5. CM belongs to all of us and it is not the private property of a small clique of self-styled experts to dictate what is good and what is not!

You can add your conclusions too!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 25 Mar 2010, 02:27

Great, CML!
An experiment which says that name recognition counts. I like your suggestion to the young (and old?) that we go with an open mind and with hearts which are not partial to one school of music or the other.Yes, youngsters should take your tip about not being influenced by what old folks have to say about good music. Yes, CM is not just the domain of a select few who have their noses up in the air think ing that there is no room for lesser listeners on their exclusive turf!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 25 Mar 2010, 05:27

Very nice arasi!
You have beautifully summarized my message. As a vaggeyakara you are creating music from your heart and it must be evaluated on its merits and not on the basis of comparisons or pronouncements by any so called experts! Performers too should sing what appeals to theiir hearts rather than being bounden by grid-lock Tradition!

karthikbala · Post by **karthikbala** » 25 Mar 2010, 16:55

Cleansing the palate is essential to fully appreciating a wine. The musical equivalent of this is equally relevant. For instance, if one listens to AIR everyday there is a good chance of "acquiring" a taste for badly performed apaswara-garnished music (I use the word loosely). According to Dorothy Sayers, if one consumes small doses of arsenic, over a period of time one acquires a level of tolerance...

Personally, I take periodic "breaks" from CM. Listening exclusively to Carlo Bergonzi, Jussi Bjorling, Elisabeth Shwarzkopf, Abdul Karim Khan etc. for a few weeks helps me maintain resistance to bad singing, like booster shots for a vaccine.
I also find listening to recordings of Nithyashree Mahadevan in prime vocal estate very effective in realigning my sense of perspective.

ShrutiLaya · Post by **ShrutiLaya** » 25 Mar 2010, 17:42

An illuminating experiment, and sadly, one whose outcome is perfectly predictable!

There is a related experiment I propose: the "Emperor is not wearing any clothes" paradox. As someone who was introduced into CM rather late - in young adulthood - I am constantly baffled when various "legends" from the past are described as the best singers that ever lived. Of course I keep my silence, for fear of being branded a philistine. I wonder if your respected rasikas will be able to pick out the great singers from a random mix. In fact, it might be a good idea to assemble an online listening test so all rasikas here can participate

- Sreenadh

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 25 Mar 2010, 18:59

One of the test points is how many languages one knows and do one appreciate the expression in that language. I had an aversion to Northern Indian punjabi bhajans as they some times look like shouting at audience and all they have accompaniment is one or two dolkies. As I sat through for several of them, I started appreciating that. How many of our artists and rasikas understand how many languages and do they listen to north Indian artists like Bhimsen Joshi, Pandit Jasraj, and Anup Jalota and did they try to sing some of the kirtans they sing. Does CM rasikas like north Indian songs other than Hindi movie songs

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 25 Mar 2010, 19:29

IMHO most people don't know what it is that they are appreciating in CM. Their views are usually based on wht their eldrs/peers say. So-and-so is good but dont ask why! Most are not analytic in their appreeciation of CM. Some like CM without even knowing what a raga or a tala means. Of course it appeals to their soul - a soul that is programmed by somebody

Even after years of listening to CM from the old stalwarts to present-day pip-squeaks I could never explain why I like some CM. I know for sure I was programmed by my father who was a CM addict! His favourite being CVB who was almost deity as far as he was concerned. It is not the lyric, that I am sure since I/he don't understand the songs in certain languages. With all my skills in psychology I am still at a loss to define what it is that I love in CM. Of course I have not programmed my kids who are inveterate WM fans!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 26 Mar 2010, 04:04

A relief to know you have not programmed your kids--not that I expected it of a respected professional like you

Ah, that certain elusive something about music felt by us all at varying degrees on hearing various singers...as you say, all of it touches the heart--it could be the content of the song, the beauty of the rAgam brought about by the composer or the way the performer translates the essence of the rAgam and its bhAvam along with the words. That's why all kinds of explanations about the structure of a song, the nature of a rAgam as it differs from another in a note and other detailed analyses about a performance don't say it all.
It is something to be experienced. What pleases you or elevates you is what matters. By the same token, what pleases others is valid too (tastes do differ).
Comparisons are odious and don't get us anywhere. Children who grow up in an environment where they hear music most of the time will develop their own brand of love for certain kinds of music, preference for certain performers and so on.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 26 Mar 2010, 05:21

WM fans! My boys on punk and daughter in law on country

karthikbala · Post by **karthikbala** » 30 Mar 2010, 02:31

ShrutiLaya wrote:...I wonder if your respected rasikas will be able to pick out the great singers from a random mix. In fact, it might be a good idea to assemble an online listening test so all rasikas here can participate
- Sreenadh

Since you ask:
http://tinyurl.com/yco4wn7/01.mp3
http://tinyurl.com/yco4wn7/02.mp3
http://tinyurl.com/yco4wn7/03.mp3
http://tinyurl.com/yco4wn7/04.mp3
http://tinyurl.com/yco4wn7/05.mp3
http://tinyurl.com/yco4wn7/06.mp3
http://tinyurl.com/yco4wn7/07.mp3
http://tinyurl.com/yco4wn7/08.mp3
http://tinyurl.com/yco4wn7/09.mp3
http://tinyurl.com/yco4wn7/10.mp3

All non-commercial 1-minute clips from AIR. 10 female singers. There is at least one Sangita Kalanidhi in the list.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 30 Mar 2010, 04:29

Excellent!
Let our experts give a try guessing!
Keep the key till everybody gets a chance!
I love these games!
I know for sure Charulatha is in there

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 30 Mar 2010, 10:14

More than identifying the singers, what would be good is to put down which ones sounded good to us, given the premise of this thread.

Let me stick my neck out... Based on a single quick and consecutive listening session, 9 and 10 sounded mature and seasoned.

( Is 10 Smt. Mani Krishnaswami ? )

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 30 Mar 2010, 11:28

I am not able to download this yet, need some time can only do it at home, Give some time then we can give answers , possibly atleast till this week, until then sh...... with the names.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 31 Mar 2010, 16:56

I wish it was the same raga aalaapana all along!
The audio is not so good, but can't be helped!
Let us give time for many to participate.
Don't be shy

VK's suggestion is good! Pick out the two best in the lot!

ShrutiLaya · Post by **ShrutiLaya** » 31 Mar 2010, 17:38

This is a great test .. I too would like to have a couple of days to find time at home to download and listen to all the clips. Can you also make a poll of some sort so everyone can mark their choices for top 3, and then when you reveal the real Sangeetha Kalanidhi, we can see if none/some/many got this right ..

- Sreenadh

karthikbala · Post by **karthikbala** » 31 Mar 2010, 19:08

Rather than a multiple-choice poll, it might be interesting to have qualitative impressions (preferably first impressions without too much second-thoughts etc.)
Identification is welcome just for kicks but that is not the point of this thread I guess...
By the way, I have not specified there is a lone Sangitha Kalanidhi (at least one) or that their singing is in anyway "superior", so please keep an open mind!

Same-raga clips can be arranged for a male singers round. Thodi\Bhairavi\Kalyani are more feasible

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 31 Mar 2010, 20:06

The male will be more identifiable.
Who can ever miss MDR

Blind/objective identification of the top two (or three) will be most helpful from the point of name identification paradox!

sampoorna · Post by **sampoorna** » 01 Apr 2010, 00:23

I listened to all the clips. Here is what I felt as soon as I listened:

1st clip: I felt that there could have been better shruti.
2nd clip: I prefer other types of voices.
3rd clip: I liked it.
4th clip: I liked it but felt uncomfortable after min 1:00
5th clip: I really liked it.
6th clip: Good start. I suddenly felt uncomfortable around 19th sec (maybe recording glitch) and then after 50 sec.
7th clip: Poor recording but I liked it (I interpolated for the recording quality).
8th clip: I felt that it was not heavy enough for me to enjoy as CM.
9th clip: I liked it.
10th clip: I liked it.

I gave comments purely based on my enjoyment of the clips. I do not have too much technical knowledge so what I wrote may be biased by me inability to recognize some complex technique employed. In general, I prefer lesser usage of brighas. I think I liked the 5th clip the best (personal preference) although I liked the 3rd, 7th, 9th, and 10th as well.

Narayana,

Sampoorna.

ksrimech · Post by **ksrimech** » 01 Apr 2010, 01:33

Yeppa, Its so tough to do any sort of identification even for some one who has spent 1000s of hours listening to CM.

Some of my guesses though
06-First half sounds like Bombay Jayashree.
09-Could be the recording of the sangeetha kalanidhi!
10-Definitely not Mani Krishnaswami.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 01 Apr 2010, 04:57

I took VK's suggestion seriously and rated the clips on a scale of 1 (very bad) to 10 (excellent - the sort that makes the hairs on the nape of your neck stand, or brings tears to your eyes)...

Clip 1: 6
Clip 2: 7
Clip 3: 8
Clip 4: 8
Clip 5: 8.5
Clip 6: 7.0
Clip 7: 7.0
Clip 8: 5.5
Clip 9: 6.0
Clip 10: 7.0

Initially, I thought that clip 4 was a bit jarring because it was the lone viruttam, but it grew on me. Clip 8 was almost filmy in its 'lightness'.

Coming to identifying the artists, the voice in track 3 is familiar, but I can't place it (wonder if it Smt. Anantalakshmi Sadagopan's). The SK track I think is that of clip 5 - Smt. Vedavalli.

I agree with Krishna that the first part of clip 6 sounds like a young Bombay Smt. Jayashree, but the last 24 seconds or so seem to be a different voice altogether. Clip 10 is not Smt. Mani Krishnaswami's.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 01 Apr 2010, 06:51

Very good beginning!
Keep going....

ksrimech · Post by **ksrimech** » 01 Apr 2010, 22:13

Some more guesses,
03 - (young) T Brinda - The sangeetha kalanidhi
05 - Ananthalakshmi Sadagopan (????) (Check: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pfdUEsZecs)
06 - Could be (young) BJR or Vasudha Ravi (Ref: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wnaRTCXk7A)
09 - Sugandha kALamEgham
10 - pantuLA ramA (???)

thenpaanan · Post by **thenpaanan** » 02 Apr 2010, 20:27

karthikbala wrote:
http://tinyurl.com/yco4wn7/01.mp3
http://tinyurl.com/yco4wn7/02.mp3
http://tinyurl.com/yco4wn7/03.mp3
http://tinyurl.com/yco4wn7/04.mp3
http://tinyurl.com/yco4wn7/05.mp3
http://tinyurl.com/yco4wn7/06.mp3
http://tinyurl.com/yco4wn7/07.mp3
http://tinyurl.com/yco4wn7/08.mp3
http://tinyurl.com/yco4wn7/09.mp3
http://tinyurl.com/yco4wn7/10.mp3

All non-commercial 1-minute clips from AIR. 10 female singers. There is at least one Sangita Kalanidhi in the list.

Karthikbala,

Great idea! First some comments. Since the clips are so short it is not possible to comment on the content (and that is not the intent either) but only on the sound of the voices. Furthermore, appreciation of CM is a holistic experience (as opposed to film music, for example, where each song stands on its own) so it is possible, even likely, that one does not like a particular clip posted in this list but hugely enjoyed the concert that it was extracted from and vice-versa. Finally we should be aware of the dangers of sampling -- it is hard to say that each clip is representative of that singer. A clip may have come from a recording where the singer was not in best form or the recording is not the best and so on. In spite of all these caveats, it was a very interesting experience for me.

In my personal opinion, most of the voices sound rather strained, some even sound tired (could be an artifact of recording, mp3, etc). I liked voices numbered 3 and 10 because they sound at ease and fully in control, i.e. it did not sound like the music was getting away from them. Some of the clips sound like the singer is trying to imitate someone else. I will desist from posting my guesses on the names since this exercise without names can be an instructive lesson on how to focus on the voice alone without worrying about the singer's reputation or the ragam or the content etc.

Indeed, listening to the ten voices reminded me of voice culture books with CDs attached -- if you just listen to the CD alone all you get is a seemingly random selection of male/female voices singing random songs. When you read the book you read about the great things or terrible things that those singers did in those little clips and your view of the same content changes dramatically.

I thank you for taking this effort that has enlightened me considerably.

-Then Paanan

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 02 Apr 2010, 21:09

Very good and valid points that shows the limitaion of these experiments.
I am mostly aware of the limitation of my own experiment. Hence my conclusions are not engraved in granite. My purpose was to focus attention on the limitations of appreciating CM through second hand opinions. CM is and must be a personal experience. It takes lot of effort and time to develop a
'True Appreciation' of CM. Of course IMHO a Rasika is made and not born!

Having said that I still believe that a fully controlled Randomized experiment should be performed to debunk the influence of 'Name Recognition/Peer pressure'. Such an experiment could very well be a valid subject for a Doctoral Thesis for a student majoring in CM!

karthikbala · Post by **karthikbala** » 04 Apr 2010, 11:27

Fantastic effort. Quite befitting the CM rasika community which considers itself the "elite"!
It is more a fun exercise- does not change a thing.
Suggestions:
1. Let each of the clips be given points say 1-5 (1: least liked and 5: Most liked)
2. Let each respondent number him/herself as Respondent No.1, 2, 3, etc., It is easily done, as everyone can see the number of the earlier post. Those who have already done may have to do it again.
3. Let us wait till we get, say 30 entries. Then add the points of each artist.
4. Let the proposer of the contest publish the names of the artists- of course, without comment (!!) and we can decide for ourselves, how good we are in the evaluation.

Comments:

It is a nice academic exercise. Actually no proof is needed to show that our appreciation is linked to the name. We know it. It is true in all fields. Whether it is Sachin Tendulkar or Prof.Venkatraman or Amrtya Sen.

The important thing to note is that
a. If a CM performer is extremely talented, he WILL become popular. I cannot imagine an MSS or TNS not to become popular whatever be the peer pressures at that time.
b. If a performer is really bad, any amount of "promotional effort" cannot help.
c. Only all those in between the two extremes would be helped by supports and props. There is nothing wrong about it, too.

This field is a great one, where every one of us participate without any monetary consideration. Very many organisers struggle for finance but still continue conducting concerts. Very many great vidwans and vidushis oblige by performing for a pittance, with only the growth of music in mind. Very many rasikas, in spite of very tight official schedules find time to spend with CM in one way or the other. May the great fraternity continue to grow and flourish.

kssr · Post by **kssr** » 04 Apr 2010, 11:36

karthikbala wrote:Fantastic effort. Quite befitting the CM rasika community which considers itself the "elite"!
...............................................
This field is a great one, where every one of us participate without any monetary consideration. Very many organisers struggle for finance but still continue conducting concerts. Very many great vidwans and vidushis oblige by performing for a pittance, with only the growth of music in mind. Very many rasikas, in spite of very tight official schedules find time to spend with CM in one way or the other. May the great fraternity continue to grow and flourish.

Oh!! The entire page above was written by me- the humble kssr. But alas it appears in the name of "karthikbala"!! Really a Rasika paradox, especially when we are discussing about importance of names......

Of course I wrote the above from the cross link given by one of the forum members to the "Reviews and Recordings" list. I guess that is the explanation for the cross-naming (although I do not know how!!).

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 07 Apr 2010, 11:00

Terrific thread. Consumed my whole morning

Outstanding:
#10: (Raji Goplakrishnan)
#8: (Nithyasree)

Good:
#3 ()
#7 (NCV)
#6-first part (Bombay jayashree)
#5 (MLV School)

Intriguing:
#9: Charumathi Ramachandran?
#4: Madurai Somu touches

Average:
#1
#2 (Charulatha mani)

Sathej · Post by **Sathej** » 07 Apr 2010, 17:24

Nice thread..good to think on these lines:) Infact, am a bit surprised that people haven't done this for CM.

My impressions:

Not-so-good:
#1,#2

Average:
#4 (this is actually intriguing, too short to form an impression), #6, #9, #10

Good:
#3, #5 (very good), #7

Didn't find any of the clips really outstanding, but the Clip 5 was really good.

Having said this, the clips were quite short. cmlover's methodology of listening to an entire concert (or maybe atleast a detailed rendition) would help better.

Sathej

sivasubramanyan · Post by **sivasubramanyan** » 09 Apr 2010, 18:00

Since you ask:
http://tinyurl.com/yco4wn7/01.mp3
http://tinyurl.com/yco4wn7/02.mp3
http://tinyurl.com/yco4wn7/03.mp3
http://tinyurl.com/yco4wn7/04.mp3
http://tinyurl.com/yco4wn7/05.mp3
http://tinyurl.com/yco4wn7/06.mp3
http://tinyurl.com/yco4wn7/07.mp3
http://tinyurl.com/yco4wn7/08.mp3
http://tinyurl.com/yco4wn7/09.mp3
http://tinyurl.com/yco4wn7/10.mp3

All non-commercial 1-minute clips from AIR. 10 female singers. There is at least one Sangita Kalanidhi in the list.[/quote]

# 1 - Perhaps Charulatha Mani - Lots of sruti lapses
# 2 - Sounded like a poorer version of Nithyasree. But then Nithyasree sings with much better sruti suddham and overall perfection. Therefore I'm guessing it is one of her students
# 3 - Rama Ravi
# 4 - T Balasaraswati - This is the Sangita Kalanidhi Karthikbala was talking about!
# 5 - In places it sounds like Mani Krishnaswamy, but then maybe not. So-so overall.
# 6 - Bombay Jayashree
# 7 - I bet I know this singer, but can't recognise her now. However, the overall sruti is pretty good.
# 8 - Nithyasree Mahadevan
# 9 - I know this one, but just can't put my finger on it! But it's a good one.
# 10 - Raji Gopalakrishnan

My observations are:

1. It is evident that the older generation of musicians paid way more attention to sruti adherence. Clips no. 1 and 2 showed a lot of lapses.
2. Clips no. 5, 7 and 9 are decent but not distinctive. This is the generation that got sandwiched between the DKP generation and Nithyasree generation. There is a certain amount of restraint, and striving for top-notch quality.

Fantastic thread. Thanks cmlover and karthikbala!

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 09 Apr 2010, 18:44

Karthik - 'tera tIyaga rAdA?' - can you not part the veil of (ignorance) and inform us?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 09 Apr 2010, 19:32

Shall we wait for one more week. Now only iinteresting comments are flowing in. We may get a clue as to how rasikas appreciate the music once they identify it with a name. Apparently there is overwhelming emphasis on shruti adherence . There is the myth that oldtme musicians are staunch adherents of shruti. Is it true? There have been glaring examples of shruti lapses among giants even pitamaha (Subbudu used to pounce on him like a tiger

Are we brainwahed into thinking "Old is gold the new we should eschew.." ?
Is the newcomer generation really lacking in vidvat?
Is an objective evaluation possible at all?

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 09 Apr 2010, 23:02

it is just very very tough, only sure in first pass with Smt RAji gopAlakrishnan and may be nityashree, all the rest making calculated guess.
Say for the same 1 minute clip if 10 male voices are picked up, I bet all of us would have been sure with more choices. As such female musicians are not very distinct to be identified in one minute clip.

01 - chArulatha Mani
02 - young voice , guessing sriranjani santhAnagOpalan
03 - fairly old voice , may be R.Vedavalli
04- Guess since it is a semmangudi mAma number ,seetha rajan
05- guesing s sowmya
06- Bombay Jayashri
07- N. C. Vasanthakokilam
08- nityashree mahadevan
09- MLV schoo, may be shubhA ganesan
10- rAji gOpalakrishnan

sivasubramanyan · Post by **sivasubramanyan** » 10 Apr 2010, 07:54

# 1 - Perhaps Charulatha Mani - Lots of sruti lapses
# 2 - Sounded like a poorer version of Nithyasree. But then Nithyasree sings with much better sruti suddham and overall perfection. Therefore I'm guessing it is one of her students
# 3 - Rama Ravi
# 4 - T Balasaraswati - This is the Sangita Kalanidhi Karthikbala was talking about!
# 5 - In places it sounds like Mani Krishnaswamy, but then maybe not. So-so overall.
# 6 - Bombay Jayashree
# 7 - I bet I know this singer, but can't recognise her now. However, the overall sruti is pretty good.
# 8 - Nithyasree Mahadevan
# 9 - I know this one, but just can't put my finger on it! But it's a good one.
# 10 - Raji Gopalakrishnan

My observations are:

1. It is evident that the older generation of musicians paid way more attention to sruti adherence. Clips no. 1 and 2 showed a lot of lapses.
2. Clips no. 5, 7 and 9 are decent but not distinctive. This is the generation that got sandwiched between the DKP generation and Nithyasree generation. There is a certain amount of restraint, and striving for top-notch quality.

Fantastic thread. Thanks cmlover and karthikbala!

Here are a few more to my existing 2 cents as I can't get this thread out of my mind!

1. I am now quite positive that clip # 9 is Seetha Rajan.

2. I'm still not sure about clips 5 and 7, but I am certain that they are artistes of Smt. Seetha Rajan's generation (let's call it the middle generation). There is a greater commitment to sruti adherence than clips no. 1 and 2, which I am certain are of the neo-generation, if I may coin a new phrase. I'd like to think of the neo-generation as those set of artistes who came after the Sowmyas, Jayashrees and Sanjays (the younger generation).

3. In clip # 6, the voice in the raga alapana is certainly Bombay Jayashree. The alapana initially sounds like Mohanam, but after a few seconds you realise that what sounded like Ga till that point is actually the Ma! There are also some slips in the brigas. The kalpanaswaras however don't sound very much like her.

4. CMlover, there are enough recordings of the artistes of the older generation (I mean the artistes of the golden era) to prove that they adhered to sruti MUCH better than subsequent generations. Subbudu, with all due respect, was no great critic of music. He won acclaim for his sensationalism rather than his sensitivity! Notwithstanding his nasal tone and other occasional lapses, Semmangudi's recordings are ample testimony for his sruti adherence. Even GNB, who was criticised in his lifetime for sruti issues, only displayed weakness in the higher Sa region. His sangatis and individual placement of notes, irrespective of the speeds at which he chose to sang, were spot on.

5. There is absolutely no doubt that the generation upto T N Seshagopalan (who of course is in a league of his own!) show a markedly better commitment to sruti. If anything, they can only be accused of not 'packaging' their content as attractively as the younger- and neo-generations do. I am not saying that the younger and neo generations are not good, but it is clear that they take the plunge first and hope to learn and perfect as they go. Whereas the older generation was much more conservative and did not ascend the performing stage without being strong in something as basic as sruti. There are always exceptions to everything though!

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 10 Apr 2010, 09:18

A distinct voice that is uniquely identifiable automatically promotes the artiste to the next higher grade. If I could identify singer #9 (Seetha Rajan seems to be a good guess), she would be in the "Outstanding" list.

karthikbala · Post by **karthikbala** » 12 Apr 2010, 20:09

Here's the list of singers along with collated responses:

In case you can't see the image:
TRACK 01 - MS. RADHIKA
TRACK 02 - MS. CHARULATHA MANI
TRACK 03 - MS. RAMA RAVI
TRACK 04 - SANGEETHA KALANIDHI MS. BALA SARASWATHI
TRACK 05 - MS. SOUNDARAM KRISHNAN
TRACK 06 - MS. BOMBAY JAYSHREE + MS. ARUNDHATI
TRACK 07 - MS. NIRMALA
TRACK 08 - MS. CHARULATHA MANI
TRACK 09 - MS. SITA RAJAN
TRACK 10 - MS. RAJI GOPALAKRISHNAN

Image URL:
http://charulathamani.com/clips/random/list1.jpg

Note:
- rankings and/or identification guesses included where provided in the responses
- best picks, where applicable, are highlighted in blue.
- last names of some singers not known to me; profuse apologies...

tschuss,
karthik

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 12 Apr 2010, 21:32

Great work with the test and results.

Can you provide full names of Ms. Radhika and Ms. Nirmala please?

Will you also be able to provide an approximate date when the clip was first broadcast/recorded? May add some insight into the matter.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 12 Apr 2010, 22:26

Karthik - great exercise! Thank you for the trouble you have taken in coming up with these clips and collating the results as well!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 12 Apr 2010, 22:30

Excellent! Proves the point that good CM should be enjoyed with eyes closed and an open mind.
Though the sample is small it is evident that folks enjoy music by known celebrities better but the unknowns could be equally good if not better.

I think it is Nirmala Sundarrajan....

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 12 Apr 2010, 22:36

Great tabulation karthik.

VK,sampoorna , ,thenpaanan,sathej ---> 0
ksrimech -1/2 - Bombay Jayashri(he said BJ or Vasudha ravi)
rshankar -1 - Bombay Jayashri
rajeshnat -2 - Bombay Jayashri , Raji GopAlakrishnan
Suresh vv -3 - Bombay Jayashri , Raji GopAlakrishnan,charulatha mani
sivasubramanyan -3 Bombay Jayashri , Raji GopAlakrishnan, rama ravi

Most of us are familiar of Bombay Jayashri, and raji gopAlakrishnan as they are very distinct. Possibly if arunA sayeeram was included we all would have participated and got 1 but that would have spammed the site for a day . |(

Nirmala must be smt nirmala sundarrAjan , veteran musician mother of subhAshini parthasarathi. Incidentally most of us have confidently answered charulatha mani as nithyashree which was wrong.

No idea about radhika , is sounderam the relative of Arasi from ambujam krishna family?.
I did not anticipate the googly ;( of charulatha mani in two clippings. Great one karthik.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 12 Apr 2010, 22:48

Interestingly as per Suresh CM gets rated average but outstanding when identified as Nityasree

sivasubramanyan · Post by **sivasubramanyan** » 13 Apr 2010, 06:35

rajeshnat wrote:Great tabulation karthik.

VK,sampoorna , ,thenpaanan,sathej ---> 0
ksrimech -1/2 - Bombay Jayashri(he said BJ or Vasudha ravi)
rshankar -1 - Bombay Jayashri
rajeshnat -2 - Bombay Jayashri , Raji GopAlakrishnan
Suresh vv -3 - Bombay Jayashri , Raji GopAlakrishnan,charulatha mani
sivasubramanyan -3 Bombay Jayashri , Raji GopAlakrishnan, rama ravi

Karthikbala, I accept my fault for not mistaking Charulatha Mani for Nithyasree! The voice and styles, especially the rendition of the higher Ma, were strikingly similar.

I however didn't assert that clip #5 was Mani Krishnaswamy. It was a 50-50!

Rajeshnat, not to nitpick, but I also got T Balasaraswati and Seetha Rajan right, so that is a 5 on 10.

CML, your suggestion that one should appreciate music with eyes closed is a good one. Let's also add that it shouldn't be with ears shut and eyes open, which is what most listeners tend to do!

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 13 Apr 2010, 06:48

Air Jordan & Nike - how did they market their shoes? Fame and acceptability go together every where and CM is not exception. As CMLover says we should keep an open mind while listening to known and unknown singers instead of biased listening. That will bring more artists and constructive competition among artists.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 13 Apr 2010, 07:23

Great thread, and the man who stirs all this starts off as a researcher and ends by sounding like a philosopher: with eyes closed, or in that state of mind. Can't agree more.

Sivasubramanyan,
True! and add: with mouth shut too

Kartikbala,
Enjoyed the whole thing. My one guess was not worth entering the test, so I waited. I wouldn't have fared badly, after all, looking at the scores of more discerning rasikAs! I also knew that Ananthalakshmi Sadagopan wasn't not there.

Rajesh,
No, Soundaram Krishnan is not a relative but strangely enough, a childhood friend! I had lost touch with her. We met after many years for a fleeting second during the season a few years ago. A long time ago, I came to know that she had become a vocalist and I got a cassette of hers from her sister. Her singing was very good--particularly her azhagA azhagA. No, I did not recognize her voice! By the way, Arundati Krishnan, a talented young singer (and a member here?) is Soundaram Krishnan's student.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 13 Apr 2010, 08:03

btw, in my earlier post I mentioned that this should not be an exercise in identifying the artists as per the spirit of this thread and the hypothesis CML was postulating. Without knowing who the artist is, evaluate how you well you liked the singing. ( though I threw in an off the wall guess which I should have eschewed ). But the exercise seemed to have turned to that, namely, identifying the artists. ( there are exceptions like rshankar who provided a grade for each on a 10 point scale ). I am glad karthik added the sparse subjective evaluation scores, wherever provided, in the elaborate tabulation.

karthikbala, I mentioned that I liked 9 and 10. I called it as 'sounding mature'. You can add that to the table for completeness. Thanks.

CML, It looks like we have the ability to identify good music even when we do not know/not sure who the artist is. Or when there is considerable uncertainty. Probably not solid enough evidence but it seems to be trending in that direction. I realize that is the not the conclusion you are drawing.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 13 Apr 2010, 09:38

BTW this exercise does not help in gauging the quality of any musician , I personally felt the sample duration is too short to say the first is good , the second is better etc.. Also for a one minute if a musician say sings latAngi vs the same one minute if a musician sings say hindOlam ,the tilt is there towards hindOlam. This exercise is still nice, though not sure of what clinical trial it is?. Karthik bAlA -Can we bring in a collection of male singers like this ?

sivasubrahmanyan , yes you are right you got 5.

By the way a small interpretation that can be challenged:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
In general as rasikAs are we not looking for distinct voices in general and start attributing our bias either towards or against the singer in general . Is that not especially true for female singers in general?Just curious there?

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 13 Apr 2010, 11:22

cmlover wrote:Interestingly as per Suresh CM gets rated average but outstanding when identified as Nityasree

cmlover, In typical fashion you are jumping to invalid conclusions. The rating was for the clip and not for the artiste. Identifying the artiste was a parallel exercise. I guess, in your world the same artiste performs in the same way all the time.