Carnatic Music Using KeyBoard

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 18 Oct 2005, 22:07

I'm learnign Carnatic Music using Keyboard. I've a curious question regarding Thalams. When I play simple song like 'See Gananatha Sindura ..' what would be the right combination of patterns I've to use for Mridangam? I'm using SwarShala to play mridangam and not sure how to play the right beats for Mridangam? Any inputs will be very helpful.

Also, when playing carnatic song, what swara that I've to use gamakam? Please let me know.

Thanks and Regards

Krishnan

meena · Post by **meena** » 19 Oct 2005, 12:21

krishnan

Pl. also post ur query at DELETED
Active thread on 'Mridangam Repair and Other Mridangam Aspects' Hope someone will guide u.

good luck

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 05 Feb 2006, 11:52

This is probably too late to be useful....

Krishnan, in carnatic music the mridangam player does so much more than just follow the beat and mark the talam. It is something that, even for practice, I don't think a machine can really replace.

I would also suggest that developing your own laya sense during practice is more important than having a machine keep time for you.

Sivaraman · Post by **Sivaraman** » 15 Feb 2006, 23:27

Can anyone suggest any weblinks which can aid in teaching CM on Keyboard?
Are there any books of Video/Audio Cd's available on this subject?
Will appreciate anyone who is able to furnish this information.
Sivaraman.

meena · Post by **meena** » 16 Feb 2006, 01:01

sivaraman

'Learn to play keyboard' (no info abt the author)
couple of keyboards books authored by Balachandra Raju (no info abt the book titles)

(all available @ KMBC, chennai)

Sivaraman · Post by **Sivaraman** » 17 Feb 2006, 02:24

Meena,
Thanks a lot.

Sivaraman.

sunayanaa · Post by **sunayanaa** » 17 Mar 2006, 17:07

Sivaram,

Sorry to sound a discordant note.

If you have not put in lot of effort so far, I suggest you consider any other instrument that offers provision to play gamakam in place of keyboard.

Keyboard has serious limitations to represent indian classical music and I always feel that it is not worth the time and effort (& money)

If you want to consider non-traditional musical instruments, there are quite a few in western classical orthestra that can be explored.

For instance, fretless guitar is one possibility. I dont think there is anyone in carnatic music circle who plays fretless guitar. (Prasanna plays the usual guitar with frets). You might even become another U.Srinivas or Prasanna for that instrument. I have tried that once (for 1 hr) and I felt that it gave immense freedom to play gamakas.

Sivaraman · Post by **Sivaraman** » 22 Mar 2006, 16:51

sunayanaa,
Thanks for the advice.However, having bought a Yamaha Keyboard, I am trying to put it to some use.That's why the desire to learn CM on the same, albeit with all it's microtonal limitattions.I am told that a musician called Subba Rao in Chennai has mastered CM on Keyboard with Gamakams also.Do you know anything about this ?Please let me know.

Sivaraman · Post by **Sivaraman** » 22 Mar 2006, 16:55

Here is the Musicindiaonline.com link to T.V.Subba Rao's Keyboard music.Please listen and offer your expert comments.

http://www.musicindiaonline.com/l/3/m/instrument.18/

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 10 Apr 2006, 08:15

Master Sathyanarayanan also palys the keyboard and is learning music from Mandolin Shrinivas now.

You can also hear my humble attempts at playing at:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pageart ... dID=500920

full concert available on request.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 10 Apr 2006, 08:55

very nice mohan:

Just now listening to your performance. Beautifully executed! Please join in our discussions and contribute your skills especially when songs are requested/posted (eg., Dr Shrikant thread, Jayacmajaja Wodeyar thread etc.,). It is not permitted to post full concerts here. Could you guide me how I could access your full concert? Thank you!

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 10 Apr 2006, 09:35

Thanks ... Can I upload the full concert onto Rapidshare or some other site and post the URL here? is this permitted?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 10 Apr 2006, 09:56

I just heard the lathangi aalaapana and the marivere. You have done a great job. Please u/l to rapidshare and post the links to
http://groups.google.com/group/carnatic-rasikas
and most of our membership will get them. Also since this is your 'own' concert there is no fear of any copyrights issue. You can also post to
http://www.sangeethapriya.org/
where there is a lively discussion on the use of keyboards going on. I encourage you to keep us informed of further performances since there are a number of Keyboard enthusiast who love to hear the performance of CM on the keyboard (TNS was exceptional as a forerunner!).

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 10 Apr 2006, 11:01

Great work, Mohan. Sounds very nice.

With respect to posting full concerts, I thought the rules are meant for posting other's concerts. If it is Mohan's full concert, that is not an issue, is it?

In any case, you can follow CML's suggestion with the google groups without waiting for a ruling on this.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 10 Apr 2006, 17:02

The links to the full concert files are available in Carnatic Rasikas in Google Groups. Concert features an RTP in Hemavathy.

http://groups.google.com.au/group/carna ... 230f?hl=en

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 10 Apr 2006, 20:24

Thanks. Appreciated. Could you explain the choice of the instruments on the Keyboard? Since this is from a live concert I assume the violin and mridangam accompanied you live. The violin does seem to dominate the keyboard. Is it avoidable?

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 10 Apr 2006, 23:17

Hi,

Users can post full concerts if it is their own concerts. I dont know why we should curtail that.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 10 Apr 2006, 23:57

Thanks Chembai!

I wanted you to say that in LOUD BLOCK LETTERS

We are getting hamstrung from our regular enjoyment of CM by invisible threats!

Let common sense prevail.

Thanks mohan
for that nice concert. I want everybody to enjoy it as much as I do. The keyboarding is a novel experience. Pl share your fine points with us. Especially the younger generation should be interested since many already know to tweak the Yamaha!

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 11 Apr 2006, 04:58

You can read my article about "Keyboards, Synthesizers and Carnatic Music" at
http://www.carnaticcorner.com/articles/synth.html

The article is little dated. I now use a Roland V-synth. It has the portamento feature, pitch bend and also Roland's unique d-beam which allows huge pitch glides and gives the impression of pulling strings of

The technique for playing general gamakas during a song is similar to any instrument such as Veena or violin. For example for Kaanada Gandharam, I would play Ma-Ri Ma-Ri-Ma (with the portamento on). Having the portamento feature on, gives a smooth transition between notes.

In the concert, I have used a sound similar to an electric guitar. It is a live concert and the violin has come out a bit too loud on the recording.

Happy to answer any other questions.

Mohan

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 11 Apr 2006, 08:59

Thanks mohan
If you can hook up your Roland to the computer and convert the music into MIDI files and u/l , it will be great for us to experimentally try changing Instruments as well as BPM etc., In fact lot of experimentations in CM can be carried out using the MIDI files. These techniques can be discussed under our technical section. It will be very educational and will spur our 'musically oriented' younger genertions to experiment with CM. We may even start a separate CM MIDI section!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 11 Apr 2006, 09:11

CML, excellent suggestion. I sort of have an idea that once it is in the MIDI format, there are so many possibilities for education. But please elaborate and bring us on board to MIDI in the technical section with some example CM MIDI Files and the links to any required software to deal with it.

Mohan, your input and participation is highly appreciated.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 11 Apr 2006, 10:10

Thanks vk!

I have not seen serious CM MIDI yet. I hope Mohan will help us here with his excellent CM expertise on the keyboard. I would love him to inauguate the thread under the Technical section. We can then join in the discussions and add our experiences too!

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 11 Apr 2006, 10:53

I am not very conversant with making midi files but will investigate.

I am not sure if the glides (gamakam) that I play will be truly represented when converted to MIDI.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 11 Apr 2006, 20:15

It will as long as you use the pitchbend. In fact the pitchbend addition to the MIDI language is a godsend for CM! Since I am not versatile with Keyboard I cannot reproduce the glides. But with your expertise it should be a breeze. Do use 'cakewalk' or other compatible software to capture the MIDI inputs and save them as .MID files. Looking forward to it!

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 12 Apr 2006, 05:28

I don't use pitch bend that much. Rather, I use portamento. Also, are free versions of Cakewalk available?

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 12 Apr 2006, 07:19

Mohan,

Maybe one of these may help:

http://www.mymusictools.com/download/synthesizer/

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 12 Apr 2006, 07:51

I don't use pitch bend that much. Rather, I use portamento. Also, are free versions of Cakewalk available?

I looked up portamento at http://www.music.vt.edu/musicdictionary ... mento.html and it says "A technique of gliding from one note to another without actually defining the intermediate notes; a smooth sliding between two pitches. This term is used primarily in singing and string instruments. Often called glissando for other instruments, especially the trombone."

Is there a switch for it on the keyboard? And you turn that on when needed? Just curious.

In Mohanam, for example, Sa ri is often executed by an archy sa ga ri. Would that be possible with portamento?

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 12 Apr 2006, 08:19

Portamento is a feature that only the high-end synthesizers have. It is mode or feature that is applied to a sound. The Korg and Roland synthesizers usually have the feature. You won't find it in the cheaper Casio or Yamaha keyboards.

Within the portamento settings there are other settings like Legato mode, Note trigger, etc. You can also set the time that it takes to glide from one note to another. One needs to experiment with these settings to get the required effect for Carnatic music.

Many gamakam can be played using portamento but for others the pitch bend is useful. The problem with the pitch bend is that it I find it harder to control.

If you listen to the Bhairavi swarajathi (preceded by a short alapana) from my concert (links provided earlier) you can get a better idea of what is capable. I have hardly used the pitch bender.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 12 Apr 2006, 20:36

Dear Mohan:
The Korg is a sophisticated synthasizer and it takes expertise to master it (I don't). It is nice you have mastered the gamakam using the portmenteau settings. That requires lot of experimentation. The pitchbend wheel is the easier way to produce the frequency shifts but that too requires considerable expertise and more importantly knowledge of CM.The portmenteau is a legitimate command of the MIDI 2.0 language and will be automatically captured by the software (e.g., Cakewalk professional) as you play your keyboard into the computer. The resulting MID file can be played in any sound player (realaudio, windows media player etc.,) and can be edited in MIDI software to change the instruments and add other melodies/rhythm into it. That is where the experimentation in CM becomes exciting. Do please try and u/l some short CM based MID files. We can take it from there in our discussions. You may even have a bundled software from Roland for the computer recordings if you had bought it from a music store! If not look for 'Cubase' by Steinberg at the music stores!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 12 Apr 2006, 20:43

Try
http://www.softforall.com/mp3naudoi/MIDI/index.htm
for MIDI software downloads. There are some demo versions with a timelimit on use that you can try out!

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 13 Apr 2006, 02:26

Of course all midi files are excluded from upload restrictions.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 13 Apr 2006, 03:57

Thanks!

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 14 Apr 2006, 13:04

There is no issue about an item that has been rendered by the uploader. The same applies in a concert situation, on the condition the organisor and accompanists consent. Hope this stops the fuss. People are welcome to check this legal advice out with any lawyer.

Now....my views
I was once upon a time impressed with myself for figuring out on my own, what can be done with various little functions and techniques on the keyboard (eg; pitch bend). I still am, even though I abruptly found a dissatisfaction with the sound produced by the keyboard. I felt there was not enough depth. So, as usual, I am keeping my eye out for anyone who can reach my high expectations*.

I had a listen of Master Sathya's rendition of one item - my perception did not change. I've got a few more of his renditions, so I will give it another go. Meanwhile, I think mohan unconsciously has signed up to be on my list of candidates to be examined LOL (don't be discouraged in case my opinion does not change even after hearing yours -there will always be a group of people who like it just as it is). Once i've had a listen to some keyboard items later this week, I will post a few comments - perhaps unfortunately

If anyone else is willing to give it a go...just post a link up on the site

*-I have high expectations for music, regardless what medium it's performed in. To impress me might be a challenge as i'm pedantic, yet flexible...what a paradox! Unbelievable? Yeah! coz if I felt I wouldn't be able to meet my own expectations one night (eg; handling a particular rAgA in a particular way), I wud hesitate to step on stage, even though concert tickets had already been sold.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 14 Apr 2006, 17:58

cml & srkris thank you for the links for free software- I will see what I can do. May take a while - so please bear with me!

You can download some of Keyboard Sathya's tracks at http://carnaticonkeyboard.blogspot.com/ ... s-new.html

I listened to his Janani in Bhairavi and it sounds like he uses the pitch bend more than portamento.

Vocalist - looking forward to your critical examination! Do listen to the full concert not just one track. I am the first to agree that a keyboard or synthesizer is not ideally suited to Carnatic music!

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 15 Apr 2006, 02:23

Mohan-ji,

Since midi files are usually very small, I wouldnt have problems hosting them on this very site should you be good enough to email them (your performances in midi) to me, so we can avoid the time limit problems of rapidshare.

Thanks again for all the wonderful musical service we have come to expect from you.

sunayanaa · Post by **sunayanaa** » 15 Apr 2006, 05:11

Recently the father of child prodigy, "Keyboard Sathya" send an audio clip of Sathya's thodi alapana, without violin accompaniment so that the gamakas are well audible .

I was amazed that keyboard can produce gamakas of thodi this well

The clip is available here:

http://rapidshare.de/files/17428262/Tho ... a.mp3.html

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 15 Apr 2006, 06:14

Mohan

The todi aalaapana w/o violin does sound like pitchbend! Too bad we don't have a video!

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 15 Apr 2006, 11:31

Sahana and Anandabhairavi from Mohan

Right Click and select "Save as"
http://freepgs.com/carnatic/midi/sahana.mid
http://freepgs.com/carnatic/midi/anandabhairavi.mid

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 15 Apr 2006, 12:01

These midi files are for experimentation only!

They have been played on my Roland synthesizer with the portamento function on, so this has to be turned on when playing back the midi file. I don't know how to do this but perhaps cmlover can advise.

sunayanaa · Post by **sunayanaa** » 15 Apr 2006, 17:28

cmlover, what is pitchbend ?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 15 Apr 2006, 22:38

Bravo! Thanks mohan
Let us carry the discussions at the new thread
http://freepgs.com/carnatic/viewtopic.php?p=8812#8812
so that this may continue the traditional keyboard concerts. I will post my analysis at the new thread. Pl. join there!

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 29 Jul 2008, 11:21

I recently have started using a new synthesizer (Roland Fantom G6) and I think the sound it can produce is very suitable for Carnatic music.

I used it in a recently concert to accompany my wife. You can hear a sample here: http://rapidshare.com/files/132826475/0 ... -_kapi.MP3

tkb · Post by **tkb** » 29 Jul 2008, 19:37

I just heard the sample and its good. Congrats.

blackadder · Post by **blackadder** » 30 Jul 2008, 13:00

cmlover wrote:Mohan

The todi aalaapana w/o violin does sound like pitchbend! Too bad we don't have a video!

Can Sathyanarayanan's father upload a video of the same recording?

mohan: I am curious to know if you sent the MIDI files to cmlover and, if so, do you have any feedback from him that you are willing to share?

tkb · Post by **tkb** » 30 Jul 2008, 15:52

I presently do not have one. But can record and upload for sure.

tkb · Post by **tkb** » 04 Aug 2008, 10:31

I am pleased to inform that i have posted link details of Sathya's concert on Keyboard for GCMA in the Kutcheri Reviews & recordings of this forum. Will try to take teh video on Thodi and post it here at the earliest.

TKB

tkb · Post by **tkb** » 06 Aug 2008, 22:28

sunayanaa, cmlover, mohan and blackadder,

Today Sri TVG of Rasikapriya yahoo groups and a famous personality of sangeethamshare.org visited our house tdy 6th Aug'08. I asked Sathya to perform / try the alapana on ragam Thodi and recorded the same. Here is the video clipping link: http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=Pndw5CiloiQ

Pls listen /and forward your opibion

TKB.

blackadder · Post by **blackadder** » 08 Aug 2008, 09:18

Thanks, TKB. From what I see, Sathya uses the pitch bender rather than portamento. Maybe this is similar to the way, say, a Hawaiian guitar is played.

I am sure that Sathya is busy but when he finds time can you talk to him and let us know how the pitch bend works? I am completely unfamiliar with this, so if he can spell out the rudiments, that will educate me. No rush, of course; I can stay ignorant about this for some more time.

aravindan · Post by **aravindan** » 22 Aug 2008, 12:45

What is the difference between Keyboard,veena,violin,flute and gottu vaidyam and which of these is easy to learn? and why? Can some one guide on these ?

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 22 Aug 2008, 13:53

what is pitch bend and portamento?????