Umayalpuram Sivaraman playing with Tala Machine - Live video

vignesh_Rasika · Post by **vignesh_Rasika** » 02 Oct 2009, 19:46

Here's a great Vijayadhashmi gift - To observe, understand and learn from UKS. I found this yesterday on the net - the Man Vs Machine - live concert recording where he has played against tala machine.

Many of the members in this forum must have heard about this but may not have seen it live. Here's a chance to see it. The precision, speed and clarity is quite amazing. Great learning for me as a student of this art.

http://www.viddler.com/explore/sanskrit ... /videos/1/

rjayakumar · Post by **rjayakumar** » 04 Oct 2009, 06:13

good one...thanks for sharing

srinivasrgvn · Post by **srinivasrgvn** » 04 Oct 2009, 14:44

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 04 Oct 2009, 16:53

Some people suggest that certain musicians don't keep a constant speed throughout the song. If you have used a talam meter, it is quite hard to keep exactly in sync with it especially when doing kalpana swaram, etc. The UKS video show's his ability to play a detailed tani avartanam and still keep in time with the electronic time keeper.

Radhika-Rajnarayan · Post by **Radhika-Rajnarayan** » 05 Oct 2009, 09:00

srinivasrgvn wrote:I don't understand. What does 'playing with a tala machine' mean? What is a tala machine and why is it 'Man Vs.Machine'? Please explain.

It is not 'man vs machine ' at all. The machine (whether a Talometer or a simple metronome) helps the performer in keeping the talam. That is all.

mohan wrote:Some people suggest that certain musicians don't keep a constant speed throughout the song. If you have used a talam meter, it is quite hard to keep exactly in sync with it especially when doing kalpana swaram, etc. The UKS video show's his ability to play a detailed tani avartanam and still keep in time with the electronic time keeper.

It would be an insult to a great vidwan like Umayalpuram Sir, to say that he keeps time with a simple talometer. Of course he can, and he certainly would have done so if the talam was sankeerna jaati Dhruva talam in complicated nadai too. The talometer is only a practise aid to help the performer keep accurate laya and tala. No one says that the electronic tambura is a machine, therefore too precise in sruti, thus it is hard to keep in sruti, do they?
It is hard to keep sync at the beginning of practising with a talometer, but one gets quite used to it within a couple of weeks, at the most.
Look at this video of a younster practising with the Talometer;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjifokfDYBQ
Maybe he makes a mistake with his swaram - but he does not go off laya. And by continuing to practise, he will eliminate any small mistakes too.
All mechanical / electronic aids help the artist improve the level of performance.
There should not be the erroneous concept of 'man vs machine' at all.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 05 Oct 2009, 10:17

At the level of U.S. he is constantly adjusting to the mistakes of the main artist! & not make it obvious to the audience. So this business of Man vs Machine etc is funny at best.....VKV

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 05 Oct 2009, 23:19

Hah! I thought so too, but figured that if UKS thought there was something tough here, I'd keep quiet (for once).

What I would see as a challenge to a mridangist, is not playing to a tala machine, but starting with one, turning down the volume after a cycle or two, and only turning up again at the very end to see if the mridangist was still with it.

I think that this, after ten minutes of play, and including the nadai changes and syncopation common to the carnatic thani, would be a challenge to any musician --- and a pro mridangist would be one musician I might risk a bet on to manage it.

The BBC does a parlour-game version of this in the anarchic panel-game show, I'm sorry I haven't a clue, where the contestant starts singing along with a record, which is then turned down. They should still be in sync with the record when the volume is turned up again a few minutes later.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 06 Oct 2009, 02:24

Appreciation of a process which results in art, that art, is enjoyment enough for the likes of me. To hear UKS's expert playing is enough for me.
Post mortem comes easily to us with concert reviews, I agree. Some rasikAs are fascinated no end with 'anatomy' classes (which of course is essential for learning to be a physician or a musician).
As in the case of setting records and running races, such an excercise might prove something to some rasikAs and performers who again have an analytical bend of mind towards art. It is possible that UKS did it because someone somewhere made a statement that it is an impossible thing to do. If we were back in a time (a few centuries), it would have been a contest, one challenging the other to keep perfect time with whatever beat indicator they would have had then

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 06 Oct 2009, 06:06

arasi wrote:It is possible that UKS did it because someone somewhere made a statement that it is an impossible thing to do.

Yes- I think is spot on!

sadananthan · Post by **sadananthan** » 06 Oct 2009, 08:39

What Umayalpuram Sivaraman has done is a cheap publicity stunt. No man can play like a machine in as much as no machine can match a man. He is adjusting his phrases to fit with the thalometer and that is rdiculous. Wesern musicians practice as a routine, practise with "machines" like the thalometeter all the time and they admit they can never match. There is no no need too. Sivaraman is a great artist and there is no need for him to fall prey to cheap stunts. Let him be what he is and let the machines be what they are; lifeless and unimaginative.

Radhika-Rajnarayan · Post by **Radhika-Rajnarayan** » 06 Oct 2009, 08:57

sadananthan wrote:What Umayalpuram Sivaraman has done is a cheap publicity stunt. No man can play like a machine in as much as no machine can match a man. He is adjusting his phrases to fit with the thalometer and that is rdiculous. Wesern musicians practice as a routine, practise with "machines" like the thalometeter all the time and they admit they can never match. There is no no need too. Sivaraman is a great artist and there is no need for him to fall prey to cheap stunts. Let him be what he is and let the machines be what they are; lifeless and unimaginative.

What is the publicity stunt about playing with a talometer / metronome? It is only a practise aid. It helps you perfect yourself. It is possible that mohan is right. Sri Sivaraman must have done it to prove that you can achieve perfection by practising with an aid to achieve this perfection. And since he already has, it must have been child's play for him to play along with the talometer/rhythm machine.
So according to the quote above, if machines are lifeless, then the sruti box / tambura also is too perfect and 'lifeless', and if we are 'adjusting our sruti to match the tambura' (which I thought, was the whole idea!)- then maybe we should stop doing that, let our sruti go up and down and waver merrily.
By the way, why are we so obsessed with deriding 'machines'? Is it a national trait?
So if 'machines' are dead and lifeless, throw away your tambura, why throw away the mridangam too, (both of them are 'machines', that is, not living things), throw away your cell phone, TV, telephone, car, refrigerator, fans, electric lights---I could go on.
Good idea, what?

Arasi is right. It is a pleasure to just listen to Sri Sivaraman and revel in the naadam of his mridangam. Thanks to the person who uploaded the video, to give us all a treat!

Radhika-Rajnarayan · Post by **Radhika-Rajnarayan** » 06 Oct 2009, 09:16

As a continuation -- I remember the astounding comment made by the great Palghat Mani Iyer when he saw the Talometer for the first time. He said in Tamil 'This is a very useful gadget. If I practise with it, I am sure I can improve'.
Both Raj Narayan and I were dumbfounded at the humility and broad mind of this genius.
Another person to comment on modern electronic Indian musical instruments as practise aids was none other than the late Ustad Vilayat Khan Saheb. At a seminar in Mumbai in the early 1990's on musical instruments, he specifically commented on the electronic tabla - "we did not have such wonderful aids to practise. Now students can practise whenever they want, for as long as they want. Now they have no excuse to say that they cannot achieve perfection. They should all aim to play much better than me or anyone of my generation".
By the way, although South India adopted the electronic tambura early, they resisted the talometer. However, the North Indian musicians took to the electronic tabla (a 'machine') immediately and happily practise with it. The South Indians, though, for all their pride about their laya-orientation, were not willing to practise with any taala aid.
Strange, isn't it?

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 06 Oct 2009, 09:42

R-R,
You are right. TiruvaLLuvar says, why 'pick' unripe fruit when there are fully ripened ones on the tree? Yes, when we get a chance to listen to someone as skilled and great-sounding as UKS, why would we choose to listen to his practise (or competition) session with a mere machine?
I don't think others have knocked the machine either. It is a valuable tool, as attested by none other than PMI as a valuable aid to students. I don't think we can compare tambUra and sruti box with it, however. A tambUra is valuable not only for keeping Sruti but for its sound. why would we need the 'machine' on the stage?
satananthan explains the difference well.

mahesu · Post by **mahesu** » 06 Oct 2009, 10:00

After listening to this recording, one can only appreciate the genius in Sivaraman. We have heard the same (almost) phrases in most thaniavarthanams, for different main artists. He plays them to the utter joy of the rasikas and vidwans, at the same time adjusting his phrases to the tala of these main artists (not to mention the capability of maintaining tala of different vidwans). But to see the same phrases repeated with a tala machine maintaining it, where Shri Sivaraman proves why he is an all time great in the art of Mridangam.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 06 Oct 2009, 14:13

arasi wrote:Appreciation of a process which results in art, that art, is enjoyment enough for the likes of me. To hear UKS's expert playing is enough for me...

Yes, I too thoroughly enjoyed the clip, regardless of what it may have been "about".

Radhika-Rajnarayan wrote: By the way, why are we so obsessed with deriding 'machines'? Is it a national trait?
So if 'machines' are dead and lifeless, throw away your tambura...

It is a national trait to believe that the word "tradition" is the most powerful trump card in the pack, and over-rides all and any argument, and justifies everything, good, bad or indifferent! In carnatic culture, it becomes a mantra, with the requirement to use the word so many times every day

My laya sense is nowhere near even approaching the ability to know how UKS might, or might not, have adjusted his phrasing, that is to say, how "mechanically" he played. I wouldn't see the need for such adaptation of play anyway.

As an aid to practice, the talometer, or even the simple metronome, makes a very tough master for the student, and thus, I guess, a good done!

Rhadika, many of the machines that you mention are not ones from which we ask art or creativity, so I do not know that they are relevant. I can say, though, that, in my experience, the drum machine (I don't mean electric or digital instruments, I mean that thing that plays a repeated loop) can be a real stroke of death to music. Even this, though, I've seen used as a musical instrument in live performance, so there is no absolute!

Performers may do all sorts of things for all sorts of reasons. For instance, there is nothing "musical", in putting different talams with different limbs, but it is a display of incredible discipline and control --- and musicians are entitled to show off from time to time!

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 06 Oct 2009, 20:19

Vellore Ramabhadran's Sarva laghu DVD( at least 10 years ago) explicitly shows him playing with a "Talameter"(I don't know what it is but assume its some sort of metronome) to illustrate aspects of Talam. So there is nothing NOVEL in this. Devices like these were used from at least in 1950's. So the motivation is obscure & puts the GREAT VIDWAN in peculiar light. VKV

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 06 Oct 2009, 22:05

R-R, I am with you that it should not be considered a big break from any tradition to use a metronome or a thala meter for practice.

By the way, although South India adopted the electronic tambura early, they resisted the talometer. However, the North Indian musicians took to the electronic tabla (a 'machine') immediately and happily practise with it. The South Indians, though, for all their pride about their laya-orientation, were not willing to practise with any taala aid.
Strange, isn't it?

It is not unexpected. In fact, their pride of laya-orientation may indeed be the reason for not the thala machine for practise in huge numbers. ( just my speculation ). There is a point of view that always practicing with the machine make you a slave to it and you can not perform without it on stage. People believe in having the kalapramana as part of their system completely internalized. Of course, one can counter that the talameter or metronome helps you in that internalization process. I am very much sympathetic to that counter point.

Comparisons to tampura or sruthi sound does not hold as others have pointed out. In fact, the musician can internalize their kattai and they can be on sruthi without a tampura ( theoretically ). But the audience wants to hear that and enjoy listening to that sound. Moreover and possibly more importantly, the audience needs to hear the reference drone, otherwise occasionally there can be confusions on what raga is being sung depending on what AdhAra Shadjam they latch on to.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 06 Oct 2009, 23:32

I wish to add a "Non-Scientific" comment about MMI encouraging U.S.( in his younger days) to give more "Arai Chappu" & "Chappu" during concerts in which he accompanied MMI. I have a feeling the interactions with GREATS like MMI etc+ his own father Sri.Kasi Viswanatha Iyer's immense expertise- I was a few homes from his house at Kamatchi Josier st in Kumbakonam for a few years- not to mention the GENIUS HE WAS & IS I feel is worthy of celebration than playing with Talameter etc which is Kindergarden stuff......Hope this is of interest to at least Nick as we have started discussing various things like NAM etc.VKV

sudhakarks · Post by **sudhakarks** » 24 Oct 2009, 09:33

Hi All,

As a person who watched this live, I can only tell you how spell bound the rasikas were at the event. This event was organised by Swathi Sanskriti to commemorate the release of Mridanga Cintamanih, yet another master piece by the Legend UKS. This was one of the items in the event VIBGYOR - art of playing Mridangam for various forms like Bharatanatyam, Namasangeetham so on and finally against the machine.

It was on Dec 8, 2008, a great evening for all rasikas at Music Academy. I am proud to have been associated with this event and I know for a fact it was no "Cheap stunt" as many of you here agree he did not have to do it. If at all anyone benefited from this program it is me, as I could quote in this forum as being associated with this event

Sudhakar

skumar63 · Post by **skumar63** » 11 Nov 2009, 15:31

Interesting comments! Since I was a witness to the Man Vs Machine, may be I can provide some background.
1) This was a program where Sri UKS demonstrated how mridangam accompanient embellishes various type of art forms. He began with harikatha, moved on to sampradaya bhajans, then to Bharatanatyam, then to folk type music and then to carnatic, after that to playing with rhythm pad and then finally with the machine (Roland rhythm box)
2) So, what we all saw was the deployment of mridangam playing techniques to various types of music. If you look at this as a complete program, what is underlying as a theme was the adaptation of playing to different musical forms over the years.
3) Now to the main topic - a crescendo - at the very end is when Sri UKS plays with the machine (Roland rhythm box). What I thought it demonstrates is
- how an artiste has to adapt himself to playing for different types
- the intricacies in terms of the style, deployment and techniques that are necessary for each of them (eg.he demonstrated how Usi is to be handled)
- finally, when you master these, the acid test is to play with a machine.
It is an acid test because - unconsciously while keeping the beats, humans hv a sense of rhythm and hence there is a micro second 'adjustment' which is both a challenge and an opportunity to handle. However, the machine, does not give that tolerance.

To play to 'zero tolerance' requires absolute perfection in execution. Sri UKS demonstrated this and more - he changed nadais and played korvais, played mel kalam, - all of them came exactly to the beat of the machine!!

Indeed - it was exhilirating to see the mastery of laya - to suit humans keeping the beat AND to suit a machine.

What can I say? Is there anythying else that can be achieved on the laya?

I was very very fortunate to witness this. I hope this provides clarity on why this was called man vs machine - the pinnacle of achievement

bhavarasa · Post by **bhavarasa** » 13 Nov 2009, 10:24

I am in 100% agreement with Nick on this topic. I've read somewhere that when MSS was a little girl, she would pluck the strings of the tambura early in the morning and after a whole day of chores, play and studying (all the time singing, humming), she would come back every so often to pluck the tambura strings to see if she still remain in perfect pitch. Needless to say, she did.

http://www.tlca.com/adults/new-mss/index.html

Similarly, what would be interesting to observe a percussion player do the same with a metronome / tala-meter.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 13 Nov 2009, 13:18

skumar63 wrote:Interesting comments! Since I was a witness to the Man Vs Machine, may be I can provide some background.
1) This was a program where Sri UKS demonstrated how mridangam accompanient embellishes various type of art forms. He began with harikatha, moved on to sampradaya bhajans, then to Bharatanatyam, then to folk type music and then to carnatic, after that to playing with rhythm pad and then finally with the machine (Roland rhythm box) ...

Your post puts the item in context, which helps a great deal. Thank you!