Padma Awards & Kannadiga

Raja Chandra · Post by **Raja Chandra** » 07 Sep 2006, 22:34

Here is an article from a local daily from Mysore ( Star of Mysore):

ELUSIVE PADMA AWARDS: ARISE, AWAKE, KANNADIGAS!

In the all-India set-up, Karnataka is being sidelined in all fields by the Centre. Be it the classical language issue, water problem, border dispute or flood relief work. An honest tax-payer feels genuinely hurt at the stepmotherly treatment being meted out to Karnataka by the Centre. The vast field of art and culture is no exception either.

Sometime back, G.T. Narayana Rao had written in these columns about the 'Magic of 8th Cross.' He was only referring to the musical magic that is taking place there. But some other magic also took place there. It was ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‹Å“heardÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢ on Sept. 3.

Every year eminent persons are honoured with the coveted ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‹Å“PadmaÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢ awards for the meritorious services they have rendered to the society in their respective chosen fields. Come to the field of Karnatak classical music. Why so far not a single musician has been found fit for a Padma award? Does it mean there is no worthy artiste in this State?

We have our music doyens like R.K. Srikantan, a living legend; V. Rama Ratnam, an eminent Guru, vaggeyakara and author of treatises on music; V.S. Sampathkumaracharya, a musicologist, author of an encyclopedia of music terminologies in Kannada, apart from other music litterateurs; Ra Satyanarayana, a musicologist par excellence and an author of musical treatises in Kannada and English; S. Mahadevappa, who is instrumental in keeping the tradition of the legendary T. Chowdaiah and contributed two gems in Nagaraj and Manjunath. The list is endless.

These men of merit and many more are still living amongst us. But why none of them has been considered fit for the award so far? is a million-dollar question. It is definitely not because that they do not deserve it. But Karnataka artistes lack a powerful lobby at the Centre. Our political leadership is just mute in this area (as in other areas too). They do not take pride in the cultural attainments of the Karnataka artistes and fight for their recognition at the highest level.

In this context, I would like to quote the incident at the 8th Cross music festival on Sept. 3. Vid. Ella Venkateshwara Rao was accompanying Mysore Nagaraj and Manjunath on the mridanga. He wanted to speak a few words after the main raga. What he told was sweeter to the ears of the listeners than his accomplishment on the instrument.

He said, ''Right from the days of Veene Seshanna, Mysore Vasudevacharya, T. Chowdiah to the presentday artistes, Mysore has produced many great musicians. But I wonder why Padma awards are not coming forth to Karnataka artistes? Even doyens like R.K. Srikantan have not received this honour. Why? I see only one reason for this: Kannadigas are not crying for it. You should ask for it, shout for it and fight for it. Even junior artistes in Tamil Nadu get the awards because of the solid backing of the people. Lobbying is an important aspect. You all should unitedly support the cause and get the awards for the deserving in Karnataka.''

These words coming from a senior artiste from outside Karnataka should awake the Kannadigas, especially the politicians and the Government from their deep slumber. It is the lack of self-pride among the Kannadigas that a person from outside the State had to warn us. I only hope that good sense will prevail on all those concerned and this year Karnataka will be blessed with many Padma awards.

ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Â

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 07 Sep 2006, 23:09

padma awards are given by Govt of India. Incidentally the biggest lobbying is that you have to be in the religious minority. Take 3 personalities from tamilnadu. When bharat ratna was given to MS Subhalakshmi , there was a group saying in TN, that if MS Amma gets bharath ratna why cannot IllayarAja get atleast padmashri, remember AR Rehman already got that(one main reason is minority).

Incidentally Shri RK shrikanthan has been given sangeetha kalAnidhi. I would vouch for RK shrikanthan to get a padma award.I donot know about other contemporaries that the article has quoted (my knowledge is limited). Can we stick to CM here sir!

mahesh3 · Post by **mahesh3** » 07 Sep 2006, 23:14

Trued words never written,....the same things could be said of Andhra artists too, and there is perhaps no better example than Vid|| Yella Venkateshwara Rao

Vid|| Yella Venkateshwara Rao...one of my favorite mridangists, easily a giant in his field, yet has seldom been give the due recognition he deserves.....

hopefully things will change in due time.....Mysore Manjunath and Nagaraj are clearly talented....I winced when I was told that they are not even full-time performers. They both depend on research & teaching @ the university for their livelihood, and they are perhaps the most high-profile Vidwans currently from Karnatake. Imagine the plight of up & comers....

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 07 Sep 2006, 23:21

rajeshnat wrote:I would vouch for RK shrikanthan to get a padma award.I donot know about other contemporaries that the article has quoted (my knowledge is limited). Can we stick to CM here sir!

This is about CM rajesh. All the names mentioned are connected solely with CM. There is another thread discussing SK being elusive. If that has a place, this has a place too. Rightly so!

It is sad that you have not even heard of other names. That is the pity of it. I m putting up a list here of some Karnataka artistes who should have got SK and a lot more, and would have if they were Chennai-based

1- R.S.Keshavamurthy
2- R.R.Keshavamurty
3- R.K.Suryanarayana
4- tiTTe Krishna Iyengar
5- Belakawadi Srinivasa Iyengar(sr)
6- R.N.Doreswamy
7- rALLapaLLi Anantakrishna Sarma
8- vINe bekaTagiriyappa
9- cikkarAmarAyaru
10--

The list goes on. It is a raw nerve. Best do not touch it.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 08 Sep 2006, 00:23

The problem is indeed Kannadigas and karnataka itself. To some extent it is true of Andhra and kerala too! The best in CM tended to migrate to Madras and they slowly lost their roots. Chennai has been the musical capital of CM! It is the carry over effect from the British Raj when the whole of SI was the Madras Presidency. Even the enlightened monarchs of Mysore, Travancore, Vijayanagaram etc did not try to strenghthen a regional focus. They were too broadminded! CM musicians go where they are respected and rewarded tangibly but they fail to 'highlight' their regional identity. Again the integration into the local culture is much easier in Chennai than in other provinces. I was surprised when several Cm enthusiasts considered BMK to be a Tamilian in spite of his trying to emphasize his Andhra origin everytime

. There are many who consider KJY to be a Tamil too!

The solution is to promote local talents more vigorously. Here in NA we always look for artistes to come from Chennai while the local artistes however talented are underrated! In malayalam there is a telling lovely proverb:
'muRRarththu mulllaikku maNamillA' (homegrown Jasmine has no good smell). The HITeCH companies in Bangalore are getting fabulously rich. The local folks should legitimately demand that some of those riches be shared to promote local culture!

National recognition (Padma etc.,) is highly elusive and political. Why does not Karnataka establish provincial awards like 'Karnataka kala Ratna' etc. Madras has 'kalaimAmaNi' which is wellknown and recognized. I have not seen any such titles which are highly respected from among the other provinces!

sunayanaa · Post by **sunayanaa** » 08 Sep 2006, 02:24

I was told, Shashank's father was advised by flute Mali to migrate to Chennai if Shashank's father was serious about Shashank's musical career.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 08 Sep 2006, 02:43

cmlover wrote:The problem is indeed Kannadigas and karnataka itself. To some extent it is true of Andhra and kerala too! ----

---CM musicians go where they are respected and rewarded tangibly but they fail to 'highlight' their regional identity.

Part of the story. But it is the latter half that is not quite what it is. The point here is about kannaDiga/other state musicians not commanding the respect that is their right in Chennai. On one side is the all too nice "swalpa adjust mADkoLi" nature of the kannaDigas and on the other side is the pushy nature of Chennai guys hyping up what they have and what they dont as well- that is an annoying and irksome combination.

Again the integration into the local culture is much easier in Chennai than in other provinces.

hehe. Not really. It is easier to do that in Bangalore where we have loads of people from everywhere.

The solution is to promote local talents more vigorously. Here in NA we always look for artistes to come from Chennai while the local artistes however talented are underrated!

There is certainly some truth in this. But again, this is also about promoting elsewhere than only on homeground

'muRRarththu mulllaikku maNamillA'

hittala giDa maddalla (The herb in the backyard is good as medicine)

National recognition (Padma etc.,) is highly elusive and political. Why does not Karnataka establish provincial awards like 'Karnataka kala Ratna' etc. Madras has 'kalaimAmaNi' which is wellknown and recognized.

There are prestigious state awards CML- kanaka purandara praShasti, rAjyOtsava awards. And we also have karNATaka kalASrI, karNATaka kalAratna and sangItakalAratna of course. Apart from these, there areseveral awards given by various sabhes as well. And "kalaimamani" would not pass msuter in karnataka. Only a few would have heard of it.

Chennai certainly has so much of CM in it. But this unilateral declaration to "the world" as the only haven for CM on earth is irritating. There is so much happening in Bangalore. The rAmanavami concerts are no less glorious than the "isai vizha". And it features so many "Chennai" artistes- a lot of them just upcoming fellows who get a "senior" slot because of their "Chennai" tag and big-mouthed lobbying. How many Karnataka artistes do you see featured in Chennai? And even veterans are asked to start with a junior slot! BAH.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 08 Sep 2006, 03:27

DRS

I have never heard any vidvaan flaunting the title they had from anywhere other than Chennai or Delhi. Of course they flaunt a 'doctorate' irrespective of the source! After all SK though it has to be earned is much overvalued. It is NOT the Nobel Prize in CM! If the 'Moneybags' in Bangalore can put together an award (say cash award of 10lakhs and a golden medallion) for the best in CM annually then all the best in CM will flock like flies and if they are impartial the 'kannadigas' can display their talents in open competition. (unfortunately nidhi chaala sukhamE

Again the medallion will be an insignia of recognition which one would proudly display. The centre of gravity may shift to Bangalore!

I think it was mentioned that JC was awarding a golden 'kankaN' which was highly prized and once a famous musician (I forget) went to pawn it and the then divan who came to know of it recovered it and saved the vidvan from penury! There is no such Royalty; nor are there such recognizable insignia!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 08 Sep 2006, 04:01

Having ties with both TN and Karnataka, I can say that the count of TN performers who give concerts in Bangalore and elsewhere in karnataka easily out numbers that of the karnataka performers in T.Nadu. I will even go to the extent of saying that you can count them on your fingers. There may be politics in music in Karnataka too, but compared to TN, it is almost non existent. Every year, several Karnataka performers go to Thiruvaiyaru. How many of them are known to the tamizh crowd if the camera ever focuses on them? There is truth in it when one hears:
Chennai is the place to be. Otherwise, even tamizh artists from Bombay and those from Andhra Pradesh wouldn't be moving to Chennai.
Bangalore has been a welcoming city to immigrant tamizhs for a long time. Tamizh speaking malayalis inhabit Ulsoor and surroundings--it has been a haven for (Palghat) refugees from Burma. The cantonment area has been a tamizh speaking area for decades. Malleswaram, Basavanagudi and other suburbs have thiruppAvai, murugan temples and a tamizh nadu flavor. The climate and friendly neighborhood made the immigrants stay on.
The IT world has changed Bangalore a great deal. Financially rich, cologically and aesthetically Bangalore has lost its beauty and ambience to some extent. Going to concerts in spite of their being free or next to nothing in the price of tickets, traffic conditions have made it difficult for the fans to get to the halls. Still, Bangalore boasts of many concerts a week--and you would see Chennai artists featured in many of them.
Politics has corrupted the innocence of the populace, I agree. Yet, the rudest of the vegetable vendors in the market in Bangalore cannot match his counterpart in Chennai.
Coming back to music, yes, I do feel strongly that Karnataka's musicians come across as second class musicians in the eyes of the Chennai crowd it seems, whatever their level of vidwat...

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 08 Sep 2006, 04:10

drshrikaanth wrote:There are prestigious state awards CML- kanaka purandara praShasti, rAjyOtsava awards. And we also have karNATaka kalASrI, karNATaka kalAratna and sangItakalAratna of course. .

But these days the Rajyotsava awards have lost their sanctity - with the artists having to apply for it. AFAIK, the other awards mentioned still retain their value.

The rAmanavami concerts are no less glorious than the "isai vizha". And it features so many "Chennai" artistes- a lot of them just upcoming fellows who get a "senior" slot because of their "Chennai" tag and big-mouthed lobbying. How many Karnataka artistes do you see featured in Chennai? And even veterans are asked to start with a junior slot! BAH.

Growing up in a small city in Karnataka, all the exposure to concerts I had was at the local Ganapati and Ramanavami music festivals. They had their fair (or not so fair lion) share of Chennai artists - At that time we still called it Madras

Unfortunately, whether we like it or not, the fact is that Chennai music politics makes it quite difficult for artistes from other states to get what they are worth - unless they move to Chennai.

Yes, I too have seen senior singers getting the afternoon slot at MA

-Ramakriya

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 08 Sep 2006, 09:47

Chennai certainly has so much of CM in it. But this unilateral declaration to "the world" as the only haven for CM on earth is irritating.

Definitely agree. As a regular season-goer, most of the concerts I have attended in Chennai have been relatively unfulfilling. I must clarify that this is not a comment on quality - I do not have the knowledge to comment on those issues: it is probably because I prefer the 3+ hour concert format which is prevalent in Mumbai, and not the 1.5 or 2 hours that seems to be the norm in Chennai. The season is a wonderful event, and Chennai is most definitely the only place to be if one wants Carnatic music on a day-to-day, consistent basis, but high-quality Carnatic music is alive and well in other cities around India [and elsewhere in the world, I am sure].

In Mumbai, artistes seem to spread their wings a lot more and sing with abandon, leading to an increase not only in quantity of music, but in quantity. For example, Sri RK Srikantan recently gave a lovely concert in Mumbai where he sang with verve, erudition and child-like enthusiasm for 3 hours, and he is 85!!! Hearing Srikantan Sir during this concert was an experience that touched me very deeply. Nedunuri Sir and Smt. Vedavalli also sang for 3+ hours last year in slots and atmospheres befitting their status as senior artistes. From what I hear from rasikas, the musical atmosphere in Bangalore seems very similar.

I share the sadness in seeing senior vidushis and vidwans being asked to sing in not-so-desirable slots. As great musicians get older, singing becomes physically more tough for them, but the desire to keep singing and deliver the wealth of ideas that continues to populate their imagination far outweighs their sometimes frail condition. Why not give them the best slots, and the honor that their musical journeys deserve, which should give them an extra fillip and motivation to keep singing despite advancing years? Sri SVK of Naada Inbam is one person in my experience who does this, regularly inviting Sri Srikantan, Sri TKG, Smt Vedavalli, Sri Tiruvengadu Jayaraman and other great artistes who are not 'popular' today.

Signing off with a beautiful Mumbai music moment: 78-year old Nedunuri Sir [also posted on the bEgaDA thread]

http://rapidshare.de/files/32138724/Ned ... A.mp3.html

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 08 Sep 2006, 10:04

As is my usual tendency, I seem to have digressed considerably from the topic at hand in my response above. I apologize to the other participants in this thread.

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 08 Sep 2006, 13:33

srkris

It is sad that this forum is allowing such posts. This forum has of late been converted into a tamil bashing forum. Such posts mar the basic fabric of this forum. In fact one member who was posting on the meaning kritis lost his interest seeing replies crtitsing Tamils instead of quality replies.

Language & regional culture are highly sensitive topics and I request the forum members to steer clear of such topics so that music can be discussed.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 08 Sep 2006, 13:47

How about few more points to ponder???
Think I am a manipuri settled in madras and let me base my opinion from shri ariyakudi from early 1920's(before that we all dont know, let us skip)

Carnatic Music is 90% trinity based . The critical mass of trinity based sishya paramparas started getting maximum exposure only when they moved towards the music academy in early 1920's. Other sabhas started springing and slowly the count of sabhas is highest in chennai. Unfortunately no city has been able to catch up (though I would love each one has to...). The analogy of chennai in carnatic music is equivalent to IT in bangalore (whoever has the lead ,generally leads for the foreseeable future).

DRS/RC,
Tx for educating with few karnataka artist. Let us also include rudrapatnam brothers there, they are fabulous too. You seem to not see the big picture of chennai(and also some other parts of tamilnadu). May be you have met only few jingoists , than rather the majority level headed people.(some points here are not directed to you, few may be directed to you)

1. Every year thyagarAja arAdhana was held in tiruvaiyAru. All over the world musicians and rasikas come and participate . Do you see that in the neighbouring state of Andhra it is always annamAcharya because annamAcharya belongs to talapakkam in andhra . No significant mention about sadguru thyagarAja in andhra. Why the reason is obvious because thyagarAja is considered as a neighbouring state.

2. Every year there is a nArayana theerthar festival is held in a place called
Thirupunthuruthi(close to thiruvayAru) . Remember nAryana theerthar compositions are in sanskrit . There is also a yearly festival of nArayana theerthar that BV Raman/BV Lakshman and Srimushnam conduct somewhere close to thrinelveli.

3.I have attended exclusive purandaradAsar concerts by smt MLV amma, dikshitar based kamalAmba krithis by shishyas of LGJ's sister at annanagar, skgs holding trinity day in quick succession, NGS holding the sammelan day from 9AM to 9PM, giving chances to 48 teams in 2 days.Why can't others take that lovely idea and implement it . I could see a chandrasekhara sarma playing ghatam (I dont know where he is from), he was so young , he appeared he can only ghatam and not lift that.

4. There is also a pragmatic and logistics problem of bringing musicians to chennai. All of us(rasikas, organizers etc..) can only take actions based on whom we know. The musicians that you mentioned may not be known by the organizers, even if they are known they would be only willing to come during weekends because they have a job...Please remember if the musicians take full time towards CM , there is better spiritual expectation fulfillment , and chennai hastens that path very
easily (other cities in india , surely not. Rest of the world I dont know).

5. Perhaps this point can be misunderstood more easily, take your time .Carnatic Music is still unfortunately considered a south indian music.Perhaps most of india other than 4 states is imbibed in that blood. Why can't we hear a pandit rajesh sharma (fictitious north indian bihari) singing in Varanasi Music Academy Kasi VishalAshi in gamanakriya. If I am allowed to daydream a little ,the same can be sung by sheikh mulayam(from UttarPradesh) and Francis (from Jharkhand )

To attribute that pride of bangaloreans or chennaites or andhrites or keralites is each one's choice , and to misunderstand the pride as arrogance is each of us's fault. Let us each have a pride , because without pride there can be no art,music and drama.

Incidentally if there is pride for this manipuri poster, ignore it .Let us all work together on the point 5.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 08 Sep 2006, 13:56

rajeshnat wrote:Carnatic Music is 90% trinity based .

I think this is not correct going by the statistics posted recently on another thread (I think by Lakshman/coolkarni).

DRS/RC,
You seem to not see the big picture of chennai(and also some other parts of tamilnadu). May be you have met only few jingoists , than rather the majority level headed people.

Dont make your own assumptions rajeshnat. You have no reason to infer that I or anyone here do not have first-hand experience. So try and see things for what they are.

and chennai hastens that path very easily (other cities in india , surely not. Rest of the world I dont know).

Excuse me. It is this presumptive attitude and unilateral declarations that some of us were referring to. How much of Bangalore scene do you know? May be what you heard from "jingoists"? (Excuse the plagiarism)

To attribute that pride of bangaloreans or chennaites or andhrites or keralites is each one's choice , and to misunderstand the pride as arrogance is each of us's fault.

Exactly. But it becomes arrogance/ignorance when one declares ones pride as the only righteous pride and dismiss other's reasonable statements.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 08 Sep 2006, 14:02

rajumds wrote:This forum has of late been converted into a tamil bashing forum. Such posts mar the basic fabric of this forum.

It is indeed sad that you see it so. There is no "tamil" bashing on this thread(Certainly nothing to do with the language. And also not to do with all tamil people)

In fact one member who was posting on the meaning kritis lost his interest seeing replies crtitsing Tamils instead of quality replies.

Too bad we missed out on this member with such a "Broad mind". But is this person is not able to see qulaities in this forum, he wont get it anywhere. At the end of the day, people make thier own choices. Fingers cannot be pointed atowards others for these things.

Language & regional culture are highly sensitive topics and I request the forum members to steer clear of such topics so that music can be discussed.

Dont see things where they are not. WE ARE NOT DISCUSSING LANGUAGE HERE. And no language, let alone tamil has been "bashed" on this forum.

There will always be some uneasy home-truths. It is a great idea to try and discuss some of these on the net as it can be read by people from other states and provinces. A good way of dispelling myths and spreading knowledge.

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 08 Sep 2006, 14:46

rajeshnat wrote:4. There is also a pragmatic and logistics problem of bringing musicians to chennai. even if they are known they would be only willing to come during weekends because they have a job...Please remember if the musicians take full time towards CM , there is better spiritual expectation fulfillment , and chennai hastens that path very
easily (other cities in india , surely not. Rest of the world I dont know).

Rajesh:

The 'pragmatic and logistics problem' of bringing musicians to Chennai is overrated IMO. Sabhas in other cities and countries function just fine with artistes brought from somewhere else.

rajeshnat wrote:even if they are known they would be only willing to come during weekends because they have a job...

Are concerts not held on weekends?

rajeshnat wrote:Please remember if the musicians take full time towards CM , there is better spiritual expectation fulfillment

I'd be interested to know on what basis you make this statement. Is there 'better spiritual expectation fulfillment' for you or for them? Maybe your 'spritual expectation fulfillment' is more while hearing a full-time musician, no-problem with that, but in what way are you able to comment on their feelings? If you enjoyed a concert of a musician and later found out he/she sings for the pure pleasure of it, and not as a profession, would that color your enjoyment or appreciation of their music? Interestingly the Rudrapatnam Brothers [whom you correctly pointed out as being omitted from Dr. Shrikaanth's list] as not 'full-time' musicians.

rajeshnat wrote:chennai hastens that path very
easily (other cities in india , surely not. Rest of the world I dont know).

How sad that I don't live in Chennai. My spiritual fulfilment is a slow train to heaven

humdinger · Post by **humdinger** » 08 Sep 2006, 14:53

1. Every year thyagarAja arAdhana was held in tiruvaiyAru. All over the world musicians and rasikas come and participate . Do you see that in the neighbouring state of Andhra it is always annamAcharya because annamAcharya belongs to talapakkam in andhra . No significant mention about sadguru thyagarAja in andhra. Why the reason is obvious because thyagarAja is considered as a neighbouring state.

This is wrong. there are many villages in Andhra where statues of thyagaraja swami are seen and arAdhanas happen every year in places like vijayawada, vizag etc. Thiruvayyur being his place of residence, the ArAdhana there is more famous and attracts people from all around the world.

annamAcharya may be more popular in Andhra just because his works have more reach. Its just the fact that the quantity of people who enjoy "kurai onrum illai" is more than those who enjoy a hardcore "swara raga sudha". same logic here.

And from my experience, not many people in Andhra knew thyagaraja lived in the current TN. They just think he is a Telugu person...

mahesh3 · Post by **mahesh3** » 08 Sep 2006, 18:25

Perhaps we should really focus on talking abt music, musicans and music culture, characteristics of musicians from Karnatake/Andhra. Also, I would like to point out that besides Bangalore - Mysore, Rudrapatna, Shimoga have a rich musical history. DRS is renedring yeoman service in this aspect, discussing JCRW, MVasudevachar compositions etc.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 08 Sep 2006, 19:21

Why is it then that CM flourishes in other non-indian, non trinity related countries like the US? Why is it that the Cleveland Tyagaraja Aradhana is gaining more importance? My understanding: where there is love and care to preserve the arts, where there are those who are prepared to extend their goodwill and cooperation, the arts flourish. Even in say, Mumbai, the Middle East or in any city in a country other than India, we see that discord among organizers and ego trips of the office holders affect the strength and flourishing of the sabhas.
If I had lived as a thamizh and a tamizh alone in the countries I have lived, eschewing the influences of my neighbors (because they were not thamizh this or that sub-sect), of the human and cultural atmosphere, I woudn't have been any different from the cat that closed its eyes and thought that the rest of the world did not exist, and tamizh alone ruled. Honestly, if I had lived that way, I would have disregarded Bharathi. He was a universal man and taught me that my gut feeling as a human being was fine--that all humans were equal, men and women, those who spoke and sang in sundara telungu, those who lived on the banks of sindhu river, those who came from kerala and so on. Each kitten in Bharathi's Muarasu song was of a different hue. Yet, they were all equal, coming from the same mother. 'onRenRu koTTU murasE, he sang. What a heritage we have, all under the same canopy of such a varied culture! It draws scholars and musicians from other shores and disciplines to India, makes them stay on, learn and propogate (in this case) CM!
The discussion is NOT about petty regionalism. It is about equality among deserving artists, no matter where they hail from. Culture of a region does creep into such discussions. After all, even the devout most rasika while drinking in all the music, does not filter out thoughts about where to stop for a cup of coffee or a snack (specially during the season!), which bus to catch, will there be autos at the end of a late concert and so on. The human elements do come with it.
It is understood that all of us on the forum have music on our minds. We put music first, whatever our other preferences. It is music we bring to the forum--to share, discuss and hopefully learn from. We express our regret about deserving artists being ignored or forgotten. This happens to be a bunch of those--whether they come from karnataka or from Kabul...

Raja Chandra · Post by **Raja Chandra** » 08 Sep 2006, 19:52

It is unfortunate that my post has generated some unintended fracas. Padma awards are national awards for honoring Indians who have excelled and brought pride and glory for Indians. The only purpose of the article (Written by regular CM critic) is to highlight some bias or injustice in the 54 year long history of Republic of India. A kannidaga cannot blame a Tamilan for hogging the limelight inadvertently or otherwise. But it cannot be denied some genuine injustice has been done. As the article itself says Arise and awake Kannidgas. Don't we have that much privilege to implore the powers be? Let me assure everyone no one is bashing any one here much less Tamilans.

Long ago in the beginning of this century there was an agitation in Mysore called Mysore for Mysoreans. This was because Mysore DiwanÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s were traditionally outsiders. This prompted the Maharaja to bring Sir MV from Poona and make him the Chief Engineer to begin with and later make him a Diwan.

Some time, one need to remind the people who matter to make amends. Please don't try and whip up regional bias in a CM forum. Whether you are a Manipuri or a Naga, we are all Indians. We should honor even an American if he is good in CM or recently I read about a Chinese who has mastered CM under DKP !

CSS · Post by **CSS** » 08 Sep 2006, 21:13

What about Belgaum and Hubli !! The cradle of great music.

Coming from a big country, we have our attachment to small regions and places we hail from. But we need not imprison our minds with such small thoughts.

CSS · Post by **CSS** » 08 Sep 2006, 21:29

An after thought. Karnataka has Hindustani music's influence too. So, it does not have CM alone.

The Kirana Gharana owes it's origin to the Hubli-Belgaum-Dharwar belt. Bhimsen Joshi, Gangubai Hangal and Mallikarjun Mansur are some of the well known and great artistes from this region. The music of this region, along with NatyaSangeeth, has shades of CM which is why it appeals to many Tamilians.

Music cannot be shackeld by political boundaries and let us stop being parochial.

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 08 Sep 2006, 22:08

drshrikaanth wrote:It is indeed sad that you see it so. There is no "tamil" bashing on this thread(Certainly nothing to do with the language. And also not to do with all tamil people)

You have inadvertantly accepted that tamil bashing occurs in this forum
. If you want further proof please see the thread 'Learning Telugu' in 'Languages section' where in you so unabashedly criticised the way others talk but for kannadigas there is no obvious fault in the way they speak other languages. If your intention on that thread was to have hearty laugh then I have no problem. But you were not willing to laugh at kannadigas.

Dear fellow forum members

After my first post on this thread i didin't want to comment further but the way a few people have chosen to run the forum , I was forced to post.

I request the admin to lock this thread (if possible expunge)so that we can continue to discuss music.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 08 Sep 2006, 22:22

rajumds wrote:You have inadvertantly accepted that tamil bashing occurs in this forum

Are you a lawyer? It simply appears that you are trying to score a point. Dont play on my words and draw irrelevant conslusions.

. If you want further proof please see the thread 'Learning Telugu' in 'Languages section' where in you so unabashedly criticised the way others talk but for kannadigas there is no obvious fault in the way they speak other languages.

O really! You simply choose to see it that way. 2 things, for one there were so many tamil people as well having a good laugh there. You have conveniently ignored there comments but picked on mine simply because you identify them as one amongst you but me as an "outsider".

If your intention on that thread was to have hearty laugh then I have no problem. But you were not willing to laugh at kannadigas.

Obviously you do have a problem which is why you are getting worked up. If you read that thread carefully and without preconceived notions, you will see that I said "O go ahead if you have something. It will be fun" and we can all have a laugh if someone commented upon kannaDiga's way of speaking. If you could pick something up in kannaDiga's accents you should have gone ahead and posted. You couldnt find which is why you are commenting all this here. In that thread, arasi did make a few comments and I certainly did not have a problem with that. I was ready to laugh at a good joke unlike you who is picking meanings from innocuous humour. And we were not laughing only at tamils accents either.

Dont try to attribute imaginative motives and meaning to my words.

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 08 Sep 2006, 22:38

drshrikaanth wrote:O really! You simply choose to see it that way. 2 things, for one there were so many tamil people as well having a good laugh there. You have conveniently ignored there comments but picked on mine simply because you identify them as one amongst you but me as an "outsider".

I didn't identify as such but it you who has identified yourself as an agrieved outsider. That is the reason i laughed along with all others in that thread. But the way you identified yourself i was forced to see those posts in a different light.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 08 Sep 2006, 22:47

See, you are again trying to score a point. Iam a kannaDiga and I have no hesitation to admit it. Why would you expect otherwise! Would you identify yourself as anyone other than a tamilian?(even if you spent 20 years in say, karnataka) I hope your doubts have been set to rest from what I have said earlier. If they have not, there isnt much left to say to you. Regards.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 08 Sep 2006, 23:01

If we all get mighty serious about music, that's good. If we throw humor and bonhomie out of the window in the process, it's another thing. Consider, many of the forum members (I don't belong with them) are not only erudite but SHARE their valuable knowledge and ideas with us. For example, DRS takes it so seriously some times that a bit of humor doesn't hurt. We are not here writing scholarly theses. Yet, some of the topics get to the extent of reaching the level of those scholastic studies.
I cannot imagine that there are many among us who would only read Sartre or watch Ingmar Bergman movies and have nothing in life that included a bit of humor. Even tragedies have a comic elment in them. Among (rasika) friends there is a bit of bantering. Is laughter not allowed among music lovers? Being a tamizh speaking person, I made fun of tamizh pronounciation as well in that thread and I was not offended!;)
For a moment I thought how different life would have been for Coolkarni if he had only listened to HM in all the years he has lived in Chennai. If he hadn't developed a love for CM he wouldn't have shared with others what was his joy and bounty...

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 08 Sep 2006, 23:32

Just to add, accents are beautiful too!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 08 Sep 2006, 23:54

Suji Ram,
This is what we said in that thread. An accent can be charming. Quaint is the word I used, I think...

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 09 Sep 2006, 11:45

rajachandra sir
I was bringing the manipuri connection, only because I want to bring objectivity without getting to my roots of being tamilian for my post. Incidentally the stand in your first post and the last post are so different sir. . May be you made an excessive cut and paste from the newspaper .

Incidentally my wife is from Mysore and I have worked close to a year in mysore too.(nAAvu illi sathyavAda mAtugala bagge mAthadhona??? - That means let us talk about truth and facts... )

See if i continue to bring more objectivity ??

Padma Awards are given by Delhi officials (there are south indian carnatic music regional folks participating agreed but they may be few too less ) and they give about totally 50 awards each year. They exhaust all the sports and film personalities which take the bulk. Then they go to environmentalist,social activists,doctors ,policemen and literature .They take up the pure classical musicians and end up with carnatic and hindustani music artists(maybe 6 out of 50) . Incidentally while looking at the logic of sorting out padma awards , they also drive logical blocks on quotas of states and union territories(simply unavoidable) . Infact the classical musicians who are popular in film music only gets awarded first(even though they are young) and then only the padma awards are given to classical musicians (who dont get into films...) who are generally old.

Look at the state of karnatAka they have both hindusthani and carnatic musician,so awarding padma award to karnataka carnatic music artist is a small possibility.Here is the tough part? Take your time sir. Every year when they administer and if you incidentally run your mind you know who will stand out.

Take it + or - 10 years into the future .When more and more musicians spend more time nowadays travelling around the globe,that also means that there may be (not will be) possible consolidation within india at chennai and others irrespective of their calibre can be marginalized in the minds of the awarding community specifically because of simple lack of awareness .

Tell me if my post makes sense??? If I am done with you, I have to go with DRS and Humdringer. I have no hard feelings with any one.

Raja Chandra · Post by **Raja Chandra** » 09 Sep 2006, 11:57

svami rajesh avare,

My second post is my own stance in this regard and the first post was not a cut and post job. It was what was written by the learned CM critic in Star of Mysore. I did not even add a coma anywhere. You can still log on to http://starofmysore.com/ and read it under special features on Thursday 7Th. I just posted it here to generate some objective analysis from the CM lovers and see how many in these 54 years have got padma awards for CM and from where they are from. As for as HM awards are concerned Kannidagas need not have any grouse as, we had some outstanding personalities.

I am sorry about the heat generated here and it was not my intention.

namaskara.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 09 Sep 2006, 12:51

RC Sir
If you have mistaken that I have accused of anything else (like addding comma etc...) that you have added in the first post, it is just your way of viewing things .

When you take up a post from online newspaper and put it here , it is cut and paste . When I say excessive there are other things in the first post that was not just music for which we can agree they were unintentional now on your part(not the author's part) as of this time . It certainly did not appear so in the first post.

My intention to explain in post #31 about CM artists not getting padma award for which we can agree to disagree(it is just objectivity without feelings). Hopefully let shri RK Shrikanthan break that in the next year. I will be rejoicing as much as you.

Don't put the prefix svami(please...), I am calling you Sir ,because you are acharya's grandson so you must be atleast twice my age. There is no heat to me yet.

url of the post http://www.starofmysore.com/main.asp?ty ... &item=1909 that RC sir picked up.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 09 Sep 2006, 15:31

rajeshnat wrote:I am calling you Sir ,because you are acharya's grandson .

Which AcArya!!!

Raja Chandra · Post by **Raja Chandra** » 09 Sep 2006, 23:00

Dear Mr. Rajesh,

I am sorry to disappoint you ! I am not related to acharya (I presume you are referring to the late Mysore Vasudevacharya of the revered memory). I am flummoxed how you got such an impression.

I am old yet not that old!

Well, when i speak in kannada, invariably address every one as svamy !

Namaskara mattu vaMdanegaLu.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 10 Sep 2006, 01:19

Words are powerful tools when it comes to expressing our thoughts. They can inadvertently create problems too. There are words and expressions which in a same language after some years come to mean something very different. Born and brought up in TN most of my younger years, I was puzzled when I came across some new expressions after I had left India. An example--oRE aRUvai! (surgery? No. a new way of saying 'such a bore', AhA).
The same thing with related languages. Recently on the forum the kannada word sallApA was used which means conversation. In tamizh it is used for amorous words between lovers. Words here on the forum are our only tools in communication--there is no eye contact, no body language.
As far as I know, swami is a familiar yet respectful way of addressing someone. It has nothing to do with age or stature.
Sir in taminglish is also used more or less the same way. Go one step further and imagine a non-indian who has studied kannada but knows the word swami only in one sense and thinks the addressee is one's guru!

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 10 Sep 2006, 03:14

Well, my personal impression is that these distinctions are more or less artificial and merely appear big. At least between Tamil and Kannada, it is easy to understand simple day-to-day language with a little bit of attention.

Even cursory knowledge of haLe kannada will I think facilitate translations to and from Kannada into Tamil a lot. One can only find difficulty with the abundance of Sanskrta vocabulary in Kannada, otherwise it is not a problem, even Tamils can understand most of the commonly used sanskrit words without much difficulty.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 10 Sep 2006, 23:11

The svami-acharya connection is minor. Let's drop that.I would like to continue this post as a Q&A session where I generate questions(Playing devils advocate) and I answer , so that my thought process is more cohesive and less misunderstood by all of you without any interruptions.

Question #1:rajeshnat ,you said that Carnatic Music is 90% trinity based for which a person with kannada roots (DRS)highlighted it is wrong quoting some real data?.

Answer #1 :
When I quoted that 90% trinity number,that is not the count of no of compositions that is rendered in concerts by trinity. That is what the statistics says and it is right. I was quoting that most of the carnatic music performers of today are all sishya paramparas of the trinity . Infact if sadguru thyagarAja did not train his top 5 to 7 lieutenants ,we may not have that much CM today anywhere in the globe.

Question #2:Take an example please I dont get it???

Answer #2:
Take an example of hierarchy of guru sishya paramparas sadguru ThyagarAja-Manambuchavadi Venkatasubbayyar- umayAlapuram Swaminatha Iyer- Maharajapuram Vishwanatha Iyer-Semmangudi-PS Narayanaswamy - their performing discipiles.

Looking at the above guru sishya tree in today's performers list ,the single largest count of living vocalists are SSI-PSN disciples.Where are those disciples,mostly they are residing at chennai (they may be tamilians, kannadigas,telegu speaking etc... ). The key message is they are residing at chennai either from birth or migrated from other states to chennai in the last few years.

Question #3:There are also others in that sadguru thyagarAja hierarchy (not just the stated one but multiple combinations) who are not residing at chennai but may be in other parts of south india (not tamilnadu ) ?

Answer #3:
They are , but they are very few in count and in comparison to the critical mass count of today's performers who are residing at chennai. Please take an important consideration that the state of tamilnAdu in the last 700 years was not touched and not culturally influenced by other religions other than hinduism as much .Certainly Carnatic Music and Hinduism are inseperable.That way the present day tamilnAdu has got a fluke element that is not enjoyed by other states of south india to that extent.

Question #4:What is the connection of padma awards of govt of india and carnatic musicians residing at karnatAka not getting it???

Answer #4:
Already answered in my last post

Question #5:Are you implying that others residing in other southern states (except tamilnadu) should not get it?

Answer #5:
No I am not implying that . Infact I would love that alteast RK ShrikAnthan of karnatakA should get it at at the earliest year.

Question #6:You made a sweeping statement that "Please remember if the musicians take full time towards CM , there is better spiritual expectation fulfillment , and chennai hastens that path very easily (other cities in india , surely not. Rest of the world I dont know??)"

Answer #6:
That was not drilled enough to convey a meaning .Let me explain I consider if carnatic musicians take full time instead of part time, they will have more time to go along to qualify as spiritually fulfilling and experienced performers. If you have work , you just don't have time.When I say work, it means work not related to Carnatic Music.

Question #7:But you are implying that only chennai does that as though the city is very spiritual and Other cities donot have it??

Answer #7:
You got it wrong , i did not imply that.Take it slowly. Spiritually fulfilling experience takes years of performance and sAdhakam . The key for sAdhakam is playgrounds which are actualy sabhas .Incidentally the largest sabhas are in chennai and the largest support system for the musicians are in chennai.

Spiritual fulfillment is a 3rd phase , the 1st phase is the learning phase and the 2nd is the commercial and playground phase where artists need to make money by performing in sabhas/temples all round the year to raise their family and kids.

Question #8:Are you saying only chennai does it , other southern states dont do it?

Answer #8:
There are few musicians who have done it. But overall they are very few .The majority of them to the best of my knowledge are residents of chennai . If you consider the first and second phase that certainly gets accomplished fast when you are in chennai. With respect to other states, stage 1 may be there , but I doubt on stage 2 I think it is very difficult .

Question #9:Are you saying the stage 3 is achieved by all musicians who reside at chennai?

Answer #9
Sorry no ,if you take 100 performing musicians , most of them stop at stage 1, some at stage 1 and 2 , only very few of them reach stage 3(hopefully). Please also remember stages 1,2 and 3 are not steps in a ladder , it is more like a concentric circle(it is continous where one stage feeds the other).

Question #10 Are you going to adore if they reach stage 3.

Answer #10:
No way. Carnatic spiritual experience of the musicians is just a small dot when compared to what true spiritual people have achieved in the past

Question #11:You made a sweeping statement that sadhguru thyagarAja is/was not adored that much in andhra.

Answer #11:
Remember the statement of thyagarAja - andhra should not be measured in the last 5 years timeframe . I have few telugu speaking friends and elderly gentlemen who are based at chennai and in andhra who are quite knowledgable in CM. They have told in the period from 1960 to 1990's, Andhra was excessively siding only annnamAcharya(because he belonged to talapAkkam town in Andhra) , only now in the last 5 years that thyagarAja is also revered as much as annamAcharya.

Question #12:But how are you sure you are right, I know in vizag,vijayawada ,there are yearly festivals in celebration of thyagarAja

Answer #12:
There is , I give it to you even though I have not seen it . Are they held at same scale and same elaboration as much as what is held in chennai and tiruvayAru .

Question #13:Can you elaborate scale and elaboration ??

Answer #13:
If you look at chennai ,for atleast 1 full month different sabhas(15 to 20) and lot of musicians (even kids)participate that is scale and elaboration. Even last week bunch of kids were singing pancharathna krithis. Does the same happen at andhra,educate me with data . At this point , I think it will take quite a lot of years.

Question #14:
Did u go to andhra,karnataka and kerela etc and heard any concerts ??

Answer #14:
I will be straight here. The time frames of those in years and the concerts that I have attended are

1981 to 1991 - about 20 concerts at chennai
1991 to 1997 - just 1 (I was a fool and bereaved the loss of maharAjapuram santhanam too long )
1997 to 2000 - just 2 in aurora temple,IL,USA
2001 - just 2, one in bangalore and one in mysore
2001 - 2006 - about 125 concerts at chennai (thanks to illayarAja ,SPB,KJ YesudAs retiring ...)

Question #15 Any urls to back what you said?

Answer #15
To get the count of sabhas in the globe refer the following url (which will give good objectivity). refer http://carnatica.net/sabhas.htm

The post is long for complete brevity, I am almost done clarifying from my side.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 11 Sep 2006, 00:11

rajeshnat wrote:Looking at the above guru sishya tree in today's performers list ,the single largest count of living vocalists are SSI-PSN disciples.

I am not getting into a who is number one contest. Will jsut mention that the R.K.Srikantan and family's SiShya parampare is HUGE and it is not just restricted to Bangalore/Mysore.

There are , but they are very few in count and in comparison to t.he critical mass count of today's performers who are residing at chennai.

Dead wrong. Again a unilateral declaration! I completelt disagree with the critical mass bit.

Question #4:What is the connection of padma awards of govt of india and carnatic musicians residing at karnatAka not getting it???

Answer #4:
Already answered in my last post

Pardon me but this is utter nonsense. Clearly self-righteousness.

No I am not implying that . Infact I would love that alteast RK ShrikAnthan of karnatakA should get it at at the earliest year.

You seem to know only R.K.Srikantan-avha and that is because he got SK!! WOW! What a surprise!

1981 to 1991 - about 20 concerts at chennai
1991 to 1997 - just 1 (I was a fool and bereaved the loss of maharAjapuram santhanam too long )
1997 to 2000 - just 2 in aurora temple,IL,USA
2001 - just 2, one in bangalore and one in mysore
2001 - 2006 - about 125 concerts at chennai (thanks to illayarAja ,SPB,KJ YesudAs retiring ...)

You have next to no concert-attendance in anywhere except Chennai. Not a good start to draw conclusions.

To get the count of sabhas in the globe refer the following url (which will give good objectivity). refer http://carnatica.net/sabhas.htm

Haha. This is the best joke in your post. But as fo objectivity,- its lists THREE sabhas in Bangalore(Or is it 4)! And none in Mysore. And that is objective for you is it! Sure, because it backs up your claim. WAKE UP rajeshnat.

The post is long for complete brevity, I am almost done clarifying from my side.

hhhhh! Wiping my brow with relief.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 11 Sep 2006, 05:49

Rajeshnat wrote :

>>>Question #12:But how are you sure you are right, I know in vizag,vijayawada ,there are yearly festivals in
>>>celebration of thyagarAja

I do not know about Vizag and Vijayawada ; What I can assure you that Tyagaraja Aradhane ( in addition to Purandara Aradhane) is celebrated with all the Pancharatna singing in lots of places all over South Karnataka - Not just Bengalooru and Mysore. I'd be surprised if they do not occur in Vijayawada and Vizag( because they are much larger cities, than my hometown)

Please stop thinking things that you have not witnessed do not exist

I would believe you'd not be so naive to believe that the list of sabhas listed on carnatica.net (or for that matter, any other website) could be comprehensive! It does not list the Ganapati seva samiti or Ramanavami mandali from my hometown where I have attended over 100+ concerts between 1979 to 1990 (that is a low side estimate).

I think everyone can give statistics - But for what ?

-Ramakriya

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 11 Sep 2006, 12:48

It is true that CM artists from Chennai have won more awards than artists from other places. But if you see it as a percentage of awards won against the number of artists based in Chennai then may be we will get a better idea.

There are very few artists who hail from Chennai. Except for Madras Kannan (this again I persume from the name) I have not heard of any artist who hails from Chennai. Artists have moved from thier native ( be it Thanjavur dist, Tirunelvelli dist or Palghat dist) to Chennai to further their career.

In todays world every one aspires for awards and prizes and actively lobby for it. This is true for any profession.You can't blame artists from Chennai for others not getting awards. Everyone lobbies for himself but I don't think anyone lobbies against another.

In any field talent alone will not help one to grow. It may sound cruel but true. You may be the best doctor / IT professional but if you are going to live in a small town it is not going to help you. Mountain will not come to you. You have to go to the mountain.

These grouses exist in all fields. Rasikas are not bothered about titles but only about quality. Personaly i don't check whether the artist is a SK or PS before attending a concert. The craving for awards is more from artits side & rightly so. But if an artist is keen on awards he has to do whatever it takes (be it moving to Chennai or lobbying) rather than blaming someone else.

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 11 Sep 2006, 13:45

Interesting
http://www.kutcheribuzz.com/season2004/news/bang.htm

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 11 Sep 2006, 19:33

rajumds
Your last url is a good one.

ramakriya/drs
The url for sabhas that I mentioned are certainly not exhaustive of all sabhas (inclusive of chennai and tamilnAdu) in the world ,but that url provides a good single view. We rasikas can go to concerts only where we are? Very difficult almost impossible for any rasika to have the perspective of all states. Only artists know that.They are anyway not going to come to these forums as active posters.

DRS,
Interestingly DRS you are very brilliant in most topics, but here in this topic you refuse to see the big picture.You are more interested in highlighting here and there few lines of my post.

All,
I tried my best,with the intention to knock out a lot of misunderstandings .Hope many of you connected all my posts which were significantly objective without considering me biased . No hard feelings(inclusive of DRS) .Take it easy

venkatpv · Post by **venkatpv** » 11 Sep 2006, 19:37

oh yeah... significantly objective!!!

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 11 Sep 2006, 20:01

venkatpv
When I meant significantly objective , I meant I can still be misunderstood for objectivity somewhere as I almost tried to document what I could speak? Inadvertant slips do occur when you make big posts that too when the quote tag is there to be used by everyone .

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 11 Sep 2006, 20:24

rajeshnat wrote:,but that url provides a good single view.

Are you really unable to comprehend what is being said or are you pretending?

Interestingly DRS you are very brilliant in most topics, but here in this topic you refuse to see the big picture.

Dont take that patronizing tone with me. I do not have any hard feelings until now, but if this is going to be your tone, that will change.

Take care.

I tried my best,with the intention to knock out a lot of misunderstandings .

yah. You first try and clear your web of misunderstanding.

Hope many of you connected all my posts which were significantly objective without considering me biased .

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 11 Sep 2006, 22:13

There can be no end to a debate where both (or all) sides keep stressing their views. I think the views have been made known, and if neither side agrees to the views of the other, it's best to agree to disagree, and leave it at that. Views and opinions depend on one's understanding of times and circumstances. Since none of us are out to prove the other wrong as an end in itself, we can afford to state our perceptions and leave it there.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 11 Sep 2006, 22:29

srkris
This is not just about differing opinions. Saying that the list on carnatica is representative of reality is utter rubbish. That is simply choosing to be blind with a self-righteous attitude. I have no intention either of engaging in or continuing the debate as you call it. Others can decide for themselves.