how to identify taalam from any given song

sreevin25 · Post by **sreevin25** » 10 Jul 2009, 04:08

Can anyone tell me how can we identify taalam (including jaati) from a song. Eg: let's say I take a movie song from telugu movie Satyam (sorry thats the only song I cud think for this moment)-

I am in Love I am in Love I am in Love with u#
kannulalO daachina kaavyamE nuvvu
kaaveri kadilite mEghaalu urimite manasulO nuvvE
aa ningi karigite ee nEla chErina chinukuve nuvvE
gunDelO chiru kalavaram
tolisaarigaa nuvve
arpitam ee jeevitam
ninu chEraDam korakE

I retrieved this as 7 beats ( am I right?) Like the first line is sung in 7X4 = 28 totally
so is it khanda jati rupaka taalam or misra jaati eka taalam or tisra jati triputa taalam or chatusra jati jhampa talam ?

My guess is it is tisra jati triputa taalam. am i right? if so, or not so, can anyone explain more

thanks

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 10 Jul 2009, 04:10

Is there a link to the song that we can listen? We can try to figure it out then.

sreevin25 · Post by **sreevin25** » 10 Jul 2009, 07:34

thanks for the reply. I could retrieve this link - http://www.telugufm.com/Modules/music/M ... ?MID=10287
You can click on "I am in love" song. Let me know if this does not work out, i shall figure out an alternative.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 10 Jul 2009, 08:21

That site would not play for me, but I found a youtube link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWfjIIKLfec

You are right, it is a 7 beat cycle at a fast pace. It feels more like Misra Chapu but tisra jati triputa would be technically correct too.

sreevin25 · Post by **sreevin25** » 10 Jul 2009, 08:46

thanks! when u say misra chapu, do u mean misra jati eka taalam? I have heard this chapu term, but dont really know what it means. does it have something to do with laghu?

sreevin25 · Post by **sreevin25** » 10 Jul 2009, 08:49

another query - how would u actually identify the difference between khanda jati rupaka taalam or misra jaati eka taalam or tisra jati triputa taalam or chatusra jati jhampa talam becos all of them have 7 beats? any other technique to spot the difference?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 10 Jul 2009, 09:30

I am not very knowledgeable in these matters. I have similar questions myself. I will write what I am able to glean from various sources including several knowledgeable members here. Others please provide corrections.

Misra chapu does not follow the laghu, drutham type scheme. It is more a stutter-step pattern 3-2-2 . Though it looks like a tisra triputa structure with a 3 beat laghu and two 2 beat drutham, its feel is different because those 7 beats usually occur at double the speed. So it is really 1.5-1-1. It is sort of feelable in some songs if the stress points in the song falls along those lines and structure. There are people here in this forum who believe there is really no difference between MC and TT.

The laghu, drutham based thalas have a middle point which divides the thala into two halves. They need not be exactly at the half way point but a Drutham or Laghu near the half way point plays the role of an anchor or pivot. Carnatic music compositions usually try to do something with that division, either provide a strong emphasis on the mid point ( like the 5th beat of a 8 beat thala, or the 4th beat of a tisra triputa thala etc. ). After the emphasis there may be a small silence ( kArvai ) and then the song continues. You will definitely see this in the Pallavi of an RTP but it is also seen in numerous compositions.

Remember this: In CM, the beginning of the thala is not always easy to sense but the middle is. Once you sense the middle, the beginning fixes itself.

That is a clue to figure out which of the thalas of equal beat counts that a particular song belongs to. A 3-2-3 tisra matya thala will have a stress point at a different place than the typical Adi which has a 4-2-2 structure.

Having said all this, CM allows the song to start pretty much any where in the thala cycle. So you can easily circumvent the above guideline by moving the starting point backward or forward and align the stress point on another thala with the same beat count.

sreevin25 · Post by **sreevin25** » 10 Jul 2009, 09:43

thanks for the info! I shall read thru that again and try to assimilate it

In the mean while, I have another song to identify taalam if you are game

I just heard this song and I just realised its sung by ML Vasantha Kumari which made me love the song more. I could not find the youtube for this, but here is the link where u can hear the song
http://www.hummaa.com/music/album/15785/Bhookailas and song is "deva mahadeva"

According to my guess, the song is in 5 counts.. so its khanda chaapu, but to be more specific can I assume its set in tisra jati rupaka talam?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 10 Jul 2009, 10:01

That is a 5 beat structure and it is khanda chapu. If you want to use the laghu based system at double the speed, yes, technically, you can call it is tisra jati rupakam.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 10 Jul 2009, 10:15

Erode Nagaraj sir - can you elaborate on the evolution of the chapu talas? Perhaps Sri Umayalpuram Sivaraman has mentioned something about this in his lec-dems or classes? I have seen him and some other artistes putting misra chapu tala and they just show it as three beats and do not turn the hand.

sreevin25 · Post by **sreevin25** » 10 Jul 2009, 10:33

Hi mohan

I read your post and from my understanding it seems like though they kept 3 beats the timing could still be total of 7 which is misra chapu. To elaborate, I can imagine something like 123, 45, 67 => beat(123) and little finger(45) and ring finger(67) ..

Yet again I am a total novice and this is just my little guess work I cud do. if anyone can please jump in and correct me , would really appreciate it.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 10 Jul 2009, 10:56

yes - it is still 7: thakita | thaka | dhimi but some people turn their hand for the thakita part

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 10 Jul 2009, 13:45

Dear brother-member, sreevin25, In the olden days we have very longer Talas and they have become obsolete as more convenient ones in every aspect have later been introduced. Presently, irrespective of their constituent limbs or acts, mostly Talas of 3-units or 4-units or 5-units or 6-units or 7-units or 8-units are used in rendering music concerts and others are very rarely used. Among them 3-units or 6-units can be construed as Trisra-gati in the fast-tempo or as Rupaka-tala in the medium-tempo or as the same Rupaka-tala even in slow-tempo, 4-units and 8-units as Chaturashra-gati or Chaturashra-eka-tala or even Adi-tala of any tempi, 5-units as Khanda-gati or Khanda-chapu and 7-units as Mishra-gati or Mishra-chapu or Trisra-triputa. Talas beyond 8-units are not used generally except in exceptional cases as they are not easily relishable like the above. amsharma

mridangamkid · Post by **mridangamkid** » 11 Jul 2009, 06:04

I feel what really helps is honestly learning mridangam patterns, with that one can just listen to what patterns the mridangist is playing, and with that find out the thalam. However not knowing mridangam is no problem at all.

what I think would help is first just clap it, usually if you can clap in a steady motion (don't worry about laghu, dhrithums, or anudhrithums), and get back onto thalam, just count how many claps it took, and see if you could find the thalam with that.

However the question is, how do we know if a song is in mishra chapu, or in mishra eka, or thisra thriputa? From what I learned, from a rhythmic and technical point of view, there is no difference. However from singers point of view, there is a big difference because of the sahityam. That's all I really learned from a teacher, but I really thought it out and came up with an answer by myself (though this maybe 100% wrong, so please someone either confirm, or correct me).

I thought it wa somewhat the same as the starting points of Adi thalam. Why is it that for some songs, we start on Samam, some songs we start 2 beats after, some 6 beats after, and some 4 beats after, and I realized it IS because of the sahityam and the way the song is sung.

If we look at a 6 after song,.... let's say Manavyalakim.

The Pallavi goes.... MaNAvyalaKIM, chaRAtaDE. The capital letters shows where it lands on the beat. Now after "tade", there is a six beat pause, what do those 6 beats fill? Samam to the starting point of the pallavi. Now if you try to sing the same song on samam, nothing will fall on the beat, will will always be 2 after, however it will still technically fit. If you try the same song 2 after, it will land on the beat, however "tade" will land on the final beat of the cycle, which I assume just doesn't make much sense at all.

Try singing "Padhavini" on samam, you'd see it's a bit tougher than the normal placing.

Now if we look into a mishra chapu song..... let's say "muruGA muRUga ENRAl uruGAdO undan ULLAM"

As you see a lot of the phrases are on beat, however if you try it in say 3 after thirsa thriputa, it is MUCH tougher, and even after that try it on samam, which is even tougher. Technically it is correct, and rhythmically it fits, however if one tries to sing it, it won't "fit" fit.

Again this is pure speculation on my part, so this may be completely off, however this is what I'm thinking.

Sorry I couldn't help how to just pick up the thala in the random song, the best I can give is just keep listening and eventually it'll just "click"... or better yet, just look at someone else's thala :p

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 11 Jul 2009, 06:23

mridangamkid - I concur with you. I used play kanjirA for bhajans and that gave me a hang for tALam

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 11 Jul 2009, 10:27

A lot of it eventually comes down to this.

Are beats and sub-beats distinct 'sensable' units in carnatic music?

mridangamkid · Post by **mridangamkid** » 28 Jul 2009, 08:56

I have a question, someone could please answer.

When it comes to audio recordings of RTPs in complicated thalams, such as say Mishra Jaathi Dhruva thalam or something, how could one pick it up quickly? Occasionally I can pick it up with just "guessing and checking", and if I know the thalam before hand I can usually just pick it up at anypoint, however it is when I don't know know the thalam where I get confused. Can somebody help me with this?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 28 Jul 2009, 12:20

See if this works for you.

Count Arudhi to Arudhi.

If it is triputa thala, it is easy to figure out the jathi since 4 beats after the arudhi is the samam. The number of beats from samam back to arudhi gives you the jathi.
Since this is a common thala type, let us assume for now that if there is a tie, this thala type wins.

Ignoring Eka thala type, that leaves 25 thalas. We only need to apply some rules in case there is a tie in the avarthana count.

10 - Chathusra Matya, Thisra Ata
12 - Kanda Matya, Chathusra Ata, misra jampa
14 - Chathusra Dhruva, sankeerna Jampa, Kanda Ata

( I have already awarded any tie with triputa to triputa. We will deal with it if it is not always correct )

For Ata thala, I heard that there are two arudhis. Is this true for only Ata and not Dhurva or Jampa. If so, then that can break the tie for 10, 12, 14 in its favor.

Even other wise, the arudhi point is probably different enough for Matya, Ata , Dhruva and Jampa, that the numerical tie can be broken using aesthetical considerations.

For example, Matya thalas are characterized by longer uttaranga than purvanga.
Jampa thalas are characterized by longer purvanga than uttaranga.
I do not really know how Dhruva thalas are organized in terms of Uttaranga and Purvanga and arudhi. Can someone please comment? Are there examples of RTP in Dhruva thalas.

These are all amateurish reasoning. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will provide further commentary and corrections.

Can some one educate us on where the arudhi points typically fall for the 7 thala types. I have been looking for this info for quite some time.
That info will make the determination of the thala much more quickly and it will also help in tie-breakers.

A more interesting and aesthetically pleasing challenge is when the RTP is set in a different nadai like Tisra, kanda, misra and sankeerna.
Here the challenge is to properly distinguish between beats and sub-beats. Then the exercise becomes the same as above.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 28 Jul 2009, 12:23

@ mridhangamkid

If it's a vocal RTP (or even in some instrumental RTPs) you can hear the talam being put and use it.

Or you should find some letter in some word, and see how many counts it takes before you get back to the same letter in the same word. You should then see, if it's twenty, for example, that it could be 9 + 2 + 9 (sankIrNa maTyam?) or 7 + 7 + 4 (miSra ATa). Then you need to try out putting the two talams and see which suits better.

mridangamkid · Post by **mridangamkid** » 28 Jul 2009, 21:09

Thank you for both of your answers, quick question for Vasanthakokilam. Is arudhi, Uttaranga, and Purvanga the same as laghu, dhrithum and anudhrithum (respectively). If so is it just a language difference (i.e nadai vs. gathi/ muthiye vs. korvai), and if it is not the same, could you explain the differences? When it comes to different nadais (or gathis), I can usually pick it up mainly because I just listen to the mridangist playing and hear how he's playing it and which patterns he's playing.

@srikant, what I found that generally works is to the "thalam" with you're foot pretending you know it, and once the pallavi starts up again stop your foot louder, asserting the fact that you know the thalam (even if you don't), you'll have everyone fooled in a jiffy

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 28 Jul 2009, 22:36

Laya is inherent in the song, it should not be construed from external clues like what the mridangamist is playing or from the thala keeping sounds etc. Thala is the external representation of the laya which is what we are trying to deduce from just the song. mridangamkid's question, bring a mridangamist himself, is from that point of view. The mridangamist should be able figure out the thala even if the singer is not showing it through the kriyas.

>Is arudhi, Uttaranga, and Purvanga the same as laghu, dhrithum and anudhrithum (respectively).

No.

arudhi, also called pAdagarbha, is the point in the pallavi line where there is a heavy stress followed by a kArvai ( pause or elongation ) followed by the continuation.

It is like asking a question, a pause followed by the answer ( metaphorically speaking ).

The pUrvAnga is the portion before the arudhi and uttarAngA is the portion after the arudhi.

So arudhi is fulcrum point on which the pUrvAnga and uttarAngA are balanced. It has melody, laya and lyrical implications.

Arudhi falls on the beginning of a thAla anga like laghu, dhruthum and anudhruthum. For example, for triputa thalas it is on the first drutham, for rupakam it is on the drutham with the drutham and laghu reversed.

This pattern is followed in varnams and krithis also though not as strictly as in a Pallavi. This is how you figure out eduppu. In CM, the arudhi point is much more deterministic which in turn fixes the eduppu automatically. So eduppu is a derived property of the arudhi given a particuar thala type. So eduppu is not something one gathers from the notation, it is part and parcel of the inherent laya of the song.

My request for information is still out there. Both of these are needed as tie-breakers to assign the most appropriate thala for a pallavi line.

Where do Arudhi(s) typically fall for Dhruva, Matya, Jampa and Ata ? ( ignoring Eka for now )
What clues do you use to distinguish between beats and sub-beats ( from the stresses and emphasis in the song so we can determine the naDai/gathi of the pallavi )

mridangamkid · Post by **mridangamkid** » 28 Jul 2009, 23:34

I see, thank you very much for teaching me this. So just to be clear, the arudhi, is just the one note that is given heavy stress on and is directly before the karvai and utteranga.

The Purvanga precedes everything else, and is pretty much thhe first line of the pallavi (the question metaphorically speaking), while utteranga is after the karvai, (... the answer), this is very interesting and are some new terms I have never learned before. Thank you very much for explaining this to me.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 28 Jul 2009, 23:49

mk, you are welcome. I am hoping laya experts and professionals will provide any corrections.

Here is an exercise. The kaLai can be automatically deduced given the arudhi concept. How and why?

niyer · Post by **niyer** » 31 Jul 2009, 14:11

VK
my attempt at answering this

choose a base metronome reference speed
for a given thalam , lets say the arudhi is at metronome beat 4 for Thisra Triputa Thalam in 1st kalai
if the arudhi is on the 7th beat then it is 2nd kalai

it looks like Arudhi = ( 1+ (jaathi* kalai))
A= arudhi

VK and other experts please pardon any discrepancy in the above formula as I do realize theres much more science and aesthetics involved here . eg: im not sure how to reason the above for the chappu thalas . vague idea is can we consider jaathi=1 for chappu thalas. ?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 31 Jul 2009, 20:21

niyer: Perfect answer.

The kriya ( palm and finger movements ) for kaLai has a different meaning than the kriya for naDai/kAlam though both are externally shown the same way. That is because kaLai and naDai/kAlam are different things by nature. In my view, that is one big confusion that is out there, both in theory and practice.

( Ref: http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php? ... nadai.html )

I would like others to comment or correct. Remember, this is my interpretations as to what makes sense and not from any books.

bagheera · Post by **bagheera** » 09 Aug 2009, 20:07

sreevin25 wrote: ...
I retrieved this as 7 beats ( am I right?) Like the first line is sung in 7X4 = 28 totally
so is it khanda jati rupaka taalam or misra jaati eka taalam or tisra jati triputa taalam or chatusra jati jhampa talam ?
....

thanks

Disclaimer: I am a relative newbie to Carnatic music.

I faced the same confusion some time back. Wikipedia helped.
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tala_(music)

"The beats of a tala are divided into groups known as vibhagas, the first beat of each vibhaga usually being accented. It is this that gives the tala its unique texture. For example, Rupak tala consists of 7 beats while the related Dhamar tala consists of 14 beats. The spacing of the vibhaga accents makes them distinct, otherwise one avartan of Dhamar would be indistinguishable for two of Rupak or vice versa"

So the trick is to identify the accents (emphasis beats). At least for me, thats easier said than done

With the help of above information, I came up with an illustration to help understand talams. You might find it useful.
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key= ... utput=html

Any mistakes pointed out will be greatly appreciated.

--
Sriram

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 09 Aug 2009, 20:25

You seem to have mixed up the carnatic and hindustani systems; you can't do that, it doesn't work.

The fact that there are some similar words, like rupaka, rupak, that mean different things, aids the confusion.

I know very, very little (can't even remember the names) about Hindustani taal, but I think that the method of accenting certain beats and of playing other specific beats without accent is very specific, and an important part of how the musicians find their way around what can be astonishingly long rhythm cycles

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 09 Aug 2009, 22:00

Sriram, Great job with that spreadsheet. I like it very much. I strive for stripping things of artificial complexity created by terminology, obfuscation and looseness in definition. You seem to have suffered through the same thing and made an attempt to clearly present things. Nice!

Nick is right, what you have read in Wikipedia is more a HM concept. In CM, accents on all angas ( what you call vibhagas ) are not strictly followed or required. What is practiced more or less uniformly is the accent on the Arudhi point.

The aesthetics behind the arudhi is that it is a balancing point between the poorvanga ( front ) and uttaranga ( back ) of the thala. So it tends to be more or less in the middle.

For example, for triputa thalas the arudhi is on the first beat of the first drutha. For various jAthis, the arudhi will move around, obviously. I had heard some of these thala types can accommodate dual arudhis ( like, for ata, it is the second laghu and first drutham ). That adds to the beauty and balance, and more fodder for the imagination of the composers and performers.

I am sure you will ask 'what point is the arudhi accent for the various thala types?'. I have been asking that question here but no one has stepped up and provided a definite answer.

The following rule is definitely there

1. The start of the second anga is the arudhi normally.

Your spreadsheet provides a framework to quickly determine the ambiguities with just the arudhi requirement. In each category, scan vertically to see if there are 'X's in the same column ( other than the first column ). If so, resolve the ambiguities using the arudhi rule(s).

On my first look, only the category ( 7,14 ) has an ambiguity: chatusra jampa and chathusra druva. That can be neatly resolved if the arudhi for druva is on the beginning of the second laghu. I do not know if that is actually true. It does make sense since the second laghu is closer to the middle than the first drutham. Some one please confirm. There is a druva thala varnam but unfortunately that does not seem to follow the arudhi closely.

If true, it requires an additional rule.

2. If the second anga is a drutham, and if there is a laghu following it, arudhi is on that laghu.

Let us add a third rule for incorporating Ata thala dual arudhis, whether it is needed for uniqueness or not.

3. If the second anga is a laghu, and if there is a drutham following it, both the laghu and drutham get the arudhi accent.

Your spreadsheet convinces me that CM thala accent requirement is quite minimalist while getting the job done. That is quite attractive. It shows that you do not really need stresses/accents on every thala anga for ensuring uniqueness. That provides for more freedom which is reflected in the laya aesthetics of the CM compositions, varnams and RTPs.

You can take a stab at the uniqueness problem with arudhi stress point alone ( put an 'x' at the arudhi alone ) in another spreadsheet and put it up for people here to shoot holes in it, if any.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 13 Aug 2009, 12:46

sriram and I collaborated over the past two days and created another spreadsheet incorporating the Arudi.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key= ... 0qpQ&gid=3

It can definitely use a review from you all and please verify if the descriptions and the arudhi designation for the thala types are correct ( especially Druva ).

Thanks.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 13 Aug 2009, 18:33

Brilliant work on the spreadsheets, very useful

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 19 Aug 2009, 05:41

This link for kapAli by DKJ was posted in another thread today: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogaFwrMT1p4

DKJ starts the song on 1/2 eduppu of 2 kaLai adi. Is that how it is typically done?

Applying the arudhi principle, the thala that matches closely the laya structure is 2 kaLai Thisra Matya with the eduppu on the second beat in 2 kaLai with the arudhi on 'li' of kapAli..

It seems to fit OK throughout the song as well.

Does that make sense?

sr_iyer · Post by **sr_iyer** » 09 Sep 2009, 19:17

kapAli is sama eDuppu.

In the video, video leads audio by that deceptive skew. This can be made out by careful observation especially the mrdangam strokes vis-a-vis the sound.

For an obvious instance of this, in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzrqDvsG ... re=related which is part 2 of video, please observe around the 26 to 28 seconds interval, again focussing on the mrdangam strokes and sound.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 12 Sep 2009, 08:01

sr_iyer. thanks. Understood.

What is your take on the alternate thala suggestion of 2 kaLai Thisra Matya, so arudhi like stress falls on an anGA boundary ?

Also, while we are at thist, can you look at the spreadsheet at http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key= ... 0qpQ&gid=3 and see if the arudhi assignments for the various thala types are correct. ( especially the druva and ata thalas but others can use a review as well ). We were trying to show that the arudhi position alone is sufficient to disambiguate thalas of equal avartha count in this family of 35 thalas ( and the full anga structure of the thala type need not be brought in for that purpose )

Vijayakumar · Post by **Vijayakumar** » 16 Sep 2009, 14:42

Recently I witnessed Sikkil sister's flute concert in which they announced that "Sri ranga pura vihara" song as Tisra eka talam whereas I am seeing the same song being mentioned as set to Rupaka talam in other concerts. Are both Tisra Eka talam and Rupaka talam same for all practical purposes?

Also we see several songs being sung in alternate ragas. Is it possible to change the tala base of a song? That is, can a song set to Adi be modified/ rendered in other talas or vice versa.?

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 16 Sep 2009, 14:57

Just confused today: deleting this post

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 16 Sep 2009, 19:34

Nick: I assume you meant to write "tisra jAthi".

Vijayakumar, Chathusra Jathi rUpakam has to be 2 + 4, for some reason it has become OK to convert it to two avarthas of 3 beats. It obviously does not work while singing a Pallavi where the arudhi matters.

"Sri ranga pura vihara" does seem to fit tisra Eka since I do not discern a strong arudhi to warrant a front/back or before/after distinction.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 16 Sep 2009, 21:24

Nick: I assume you meant to write "tisra jAthi".

VK... I can't think what I meant: I've got so confuse that I've deleted the whole post!

Sundar Krishnan · Post by **Sundar Krishnan** » 30 Mar 2012, 13:46

30/3/12

The Excel Table created by Shriram by bunching the Multiples (= Categories), and further enhanced by vasnthakokilam's brilliant idea of adding the Arudhi Pts, in the process, postulating some rules for the Arudhi Pos etc, is really a good one, and very helpful for people like me , who want to understand things mathematically.

***************

A) A Novice Query this : If Arudhi = PAdagarbha is an important Standard CM defined term, and also since it is an important fulcrum point, would it not be shown distinctly in the detailed notations of any / each Song ?
If yes, can this be used to confirm VK's query on Arudhi's position(s) ?

***************

You have been raising yr Arudhi query for confirmation, repeatedly ...

B) I am not an expert, but to understand the Excel Table better, all by referring to just one Sheet, I thought it better to add / make these modifications : [Pl see : http://www.sendspace.com/file/b2h1f8]

1) replaced “X” Pts with :
Laghu Matras’ Counts - like 3, 4, 5, 7, 9
0 for Dhritam (this is Fixed Count of 2, so no need to show the Count)
~ for Anu-Dhritam (this is also a Fixed Count of 1, so no need to show the Count)

2) For Arudhi locations, added “(A)” at the appropriate above “X” Pts.

This way, you can immly get to know if the “A” is a “1(A)”, or a “0(A)”, or a “~(A)”, and the no of MAtrAs for the Laghu X Pts also, all in the SAME Excel Sheet Page instead of flapping pages.

Just to have completeness in the Excel Sheet, Category (Multiple =) 22 should also be added to “11” :
ie, Category 11 -> Category 11, 22

Just an Observation :
Between the Min Count of 1 (Anu-Dhritam) and the Max Count of 29, the foll 8 Counts (or Categories) : 15, 19, 21, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28 do not figure in the Sapta TALam Table.

What about Arudhi Pts for Eka TALam Rows in the Excel Table ?
Either Arudhi is not applicable for Eka TALam (which I doubt), or since, it is all Laghu MAtrAs only, we can probably mark the Centre MAtrA directly ??
I have tried to mark this in the modified Excel Table – these are marked “Eka (A) ?”.
However, when we add such Center-Arudhi Pts for Eka TALam, we observe that we have a clash in the Columns of Categories / Multiples : {5, 10, 20} and {7,14}.
So, how do we resolve this ?

Also, we will have 2 Center-Arudhi pts for Chatushra-Eka ??

Also, the point about "Veechu" - pl refer PS-1 below.

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C) A small point :
Post # 24 : niyer states : Arudhi = ( 1+ (jaathi * kalai))
Should it instead be : Arudhi = { 1+ (Laghu MAtrAs’ Count * kalai) }

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D) Post # 36 : ""Shri Rangapura Vihara" does seem to fit Tishra Eka, since I do not discern a strong Arudhi to warrant a front/back or before/after distinction."
However, the Bible Ref : http://www.medieval.org/music/world/car ... ihara.html says Rupakam TALam ??

***********************

PS : It may be preferable to read this Post together with my foll Posts, also being sent today in :
- MC vs TT TALams
on MC vs TT TALams.

- 9527 - kaLai, kAlam and Gati / nadai
on kaLai, kAlam and Gati / nadai.

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Thanks in Advance (TIA).

...

Sundar Krishnan · Post by **Sundar Krishnan** » 30 Mar 2012, 17:56

30/3/12

I would like to know the equivalent TaaLam name for “Jhoomra TaaLam” in Carnatic Music ?
Bindu Chawla wrote sometime in Aug 2008 in the Times Of India, under the Spiritual column :
“... Jhoomra Tala – the most viLambit ... inspired by the gait of the elephant ... 56 beats, divided into frames of 12 and 16 ... the frame of 12 must be played within the time period of 16 to get the rhythm going evenly ...”

The foll is an attempt to see which “might” be close :

56 = 14 x 4 Cycles ? [under ATa, KhaNda : 14 = 2 * 5 + 2 * 2 ? - Doubt it, since the ratio of “L : D” = 10 : 4 does not match with 16 : 12] ??

56 = 7 * 8 Cycles ? : There are four “7”s in the Table :
Jhampa TALam, Chatushra Jati : 1 ~ 0 :
4 for Laghu and 3 for D & AD, which matches with the ratio of 16 : 12
The other three “7”s don’t match.

Even in (Jhampa TALam, Chatushra Jati : 1 ~ 0) x 8 = 56, we don’t have 12 or 16 frames at a stretch ie, even though I have checked wrt “L : D/AD Ratio” (or, is there something better to check with ?), this match may not ?? be the one that defines Jhoomra TALam as :
“56 beats, divided into frames of 12 and 16, the frame of 12 must be played within the time period of 16 to get the rhythm going evenly ...”

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In rasikas site, I found only one ref to “Jhoomra” – under Hindustani Sangeet :
f=14&t=9613

TIA

...

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 30 Mar 2012, 20:58

I do not know anything about this thala but "the frame of 12 must be played within the time period of 16" says that the 12 beat portion is in Trisram in reference to the chathurasram of the 16 beat portion. So it is a mixed gathi thala.

Sundar Krishnan · Post by **Sundar Krishnan** » 02 Apr 2012, 13:18

2/4/12

Thanks. Yes, it seems that it may be a case of a multiple Gatis' TALam, to have :
“the frame of 12 must be played within the time period of 16 to get the rhythm going evenly ...”

But, what Jati, what TALam in our Sapta TALam Table, comes close to it ?
I also think that a simple L : D/AD Ratio may not do in this case. My examples in Post # 39, were just to show how I attempted to check if the ratio may have a significance.

Can others also throw some light on
- CM Eqvlnt or Near-Eqvlnt of Jhoomra TALam ?

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Any additional comments on Post # 38 above ?
- like the correctness of the modifications in the Excel Table ?
- Pt A
- Pt C etc ...

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And on the other 2 related Threads ?? :

Post 32 in f=8&t=9527&start=25

Post 85 in f=8&t=5099&start=75 ??

...

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