Book on Mysore

[melakartha]

There was a Kannada book on the life and times of Veene Sheshanna. I think it is out of print now. I cant recall the name. Would someone know which is the book.? Also would 'Naa Kanda Kalavidaru' of Mysore Vasudevacharya be available somewhere??

[shruti]

There was a Kannada book on the life and times of Veene Sheshanna. ??

You must be referring to the book Vainika Shikamani Sheshannavaru by Swaramurthy V.N.Rao.

It is out of print.

[shruti]

.... had the glorious fortune of meeting His Highness Jayachamarajendra in person. !

Another scholar had such an opportunity and this is what he says:

AN INTERVIEW WITH THE LATE HIGHNESS
JAYACHAMARAJA WODEYAR

- Dr. K.Krishnamoorthy.

It was some twenty years ago that I had the rare privilege of having an interview with our late lamented Highness in the Mysore Palace. I remember it as one of the most treasured moments in my scholarly life.

I had published by then my first ever English translation of the Sanskrit classic of literary theory and aesthetics, viz. Dhvanyaloka of Anandavardhana in the Poona Oriental Series. His Highness had studied the book and had expressed his desire with Prof. M. Yamunacharya to meet me as he was interested in my other writings too. This desire of the late highness was communicated to me orally by Prof. M. Yamunacharya when I had gone to Mysore in connection with some University work from Kumta where I was teaching in those days. I had the fear that I might not be able to meet him within the few hours at my disposal because of the multifarious appointments that His Highness might have already fixed. But surprisingly, the Palace vehicle was there to fetch me without any waiting for the interview.

I was ushered into his study straightaway. It was a sunny morning and I offered my flowers to him as a token of respect. My surprise knew no bounds when I saw him seated in the very informal dress of white pyjamas and Nehru shirt. He shook my hand and offered me a seat and expressed his pleasure at having read my book. Then I presented to him some dozen publications of mine in Kannada, all translations of Sanskrit classic which he accepted with pleasure.

Then we were served some coffee and while sipping the coffee, he started talking on a subject most near my heart - aesthetics. He had just then completed his script, he told me, of the Sir George Stanley Endowment Lectures on "An aspect of Indian Aesthetics" and was interested in discussing about some basic issues of Indian literary theory.

I was asked what in my opinion could be regarded as a key concept which might be regarded -as a bridge between Indian aesthetic psychology and spiritual science or Yoga. When I first suggested the term "Rasa", he pointed out how there were significant differences of approach in the two disciplines. Then I offered the suggestion that the idea or Prakhya or Knowledge by insight could be held as a common bridge between the two; and I quoted Abhinavagupta in support of my statement. He was immediately convinced that this was the concept. he was in search of : and he wanted to know how this idea was accepted in the Yoga system. I quoted Vacaspati Mishra and Bhoja on Patanjali and he rose from his seat overcome by genuine joy and shook my hand. He said that this important point had not been clearly noticed by any of the modern writers on the subject and that he was thinking it was a personal discovery of his own. When he found that another scholar has lighted upon the same truth independently, his admiration was profound. He admitted that the relative notion of Upakhya(literary embodiment) was the differentia of poetry.

Then he asked me whether I could give any other citation which might link the disciplines of Aesthetics Yoga. I quoted a line from a verse which I had lately read in R.G. Noli's 'The Aesthetic Experience according to Abhinavagupta'. It was a book just published in Rome and I had received an advance review copy of it through Madame Sophia Wadia, Editor of the Aryan Path, Bombay. I thought that His Highness could not have my knowledge of it. But imagine my surprise when he replied that he had gone through the book and he could not remember the lines quoted by me. I told him that he must have read some other work because this was published in distant Rome only a month before. At once, His Highness rose from his seat and took out his copy of the book from his shelf and handed it to me. I could not believe that he was not only already in possession of it but had, studied it with pencil marks. Soon I got out the lines I had referred to and he was equally surprised that he should have missed just these lines !

Then we talked of other related questions. He wanted to know whether any one principle of beauty could apply to all the five arts like music, painting and poetry. He was visibly impressed to know that the principle of rasa was indeed recognized as such in Indian works on the different arts.

Then his secretary came to remind His Highness of his other appointments. We had spent more than an hour without noticing it. I got up to take his leave. He asked me in Kannada to ring him up whenever I came to Mysore and spend some time; and added that he would always be happy to talk with me. He presented me his autographed copy of his work on Dattatreya and took leave of me with a smile.

Well, I did try once or twice again; but was not lucky enough to got another chance of interviewing him. But even that one interview of mine has left such a deep impression upon me of His Highness and erudite Rajarshi, up-to-date in scholarship and with a burning zeal for research in our art and culture. May his soul rest in peace!

[shruti]

Is it true that Mysore Vasudevachar fell out with Maharaja Jayachamaraj because the latter forced him to ghost-write his Kritis? This has been a rumour and that is why they said the Acharya moved away to Madras in a huff to Kalakshetra. I was hoping to get some insight into that from Vikram's book. But he hasnt mentioned anything abt it, may be to steer clear of controversy does anyone have any light to shed on this issue?

As per “SANGĪTA SAMAYAâ€

[shruti]

I don't know if MV refused to compose in Kannada - He has one kriti in Saraswati Manohari in Kannada to his credit.

“Vaggeyakara Vasudevacharyaâ€

[shruti]

.He pointed out that JCW was no great patron of Kannada for music lyrics since none of his 94 compositions are in Kannada but in Sanskrit.

Though JCWs compositions are in sanskrit, he was a great patron of Kannada too.

Soon after ascending the throne in 1940, Maharaja started publications of Kannada versions of various puranas, Upanishads, Rig-Veda and other Vedic literature under the series known as Jaya Chamaraja Grantha mala and Jaya Chamaraja Veda Ratna mala (1942-1955). For details see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jayachamar ... ar_Bahadur

Writing in Prabuddha Karnataka , samputa 72, sanchike 3-4 , Mysore University , 1990-91 , Dr. T. V. Venkatachala Shastry says in his article : Kannada Sahityakke Maisuru Odeyara Koduge thus:

By starting Jaya Chamaraja Granthamala at tremendous cost he has published many volumes of Rig-Veda, Upanishads, Puranas and other Vedic literatures complete with original texts with Kannada translations and meanings. This is colossal and priceless. This has made Kannidgas to be ever grateful to this great man for this knowledge treasure of Vedic literature spread over approximately 350 large volumes and 30000 pages.

[paddu]

Thank you Shruti for sharing so much info. I really admire your tenacity.

Thanks
Paddu

[shruti]

Thanks Paddu !

After all the brickbats, it is a pleasant feelings to know i was not in a deserted ship !

[shruti]

[
History then is just a subject of gossip mongerers and jobless people who love to spread canards and slander !!! Wish you show a little more respect to other people's research, intentions and efforts...

Really ! Who is the gossip monger & who is spreading canard here please ?

Carlyle had divided historians in to artizans and artists - the miners as it were, who dig out the quartz, bring it to the surface, remove the gold from the dross and cast it into ingots.: and the artists who shape it into jewelery adding precious gems by their method, their style and their wit !

Read the following:

http://www.business-standard.com/common ... ono=320582

But he also describes, in a tongue-in-cheek way, the lifestyles of the kings to explain their heirlessness: “It is but natural for a king with so many wives and concubines to spend the bulk of his time and divert his affection to them rather than the principal queen.â€

[melakartha]

But one should not assume an air of authority either. Good luck to you .

Good that you realised your own folly in this regard!! as an elderly person i bless and wish u well..

[iconoclast]

I have been following this thread with a lot of interest for many weeks now. I am very amazed by the manner in which we Indians can divert any topic into a matter of confrontation. We talk of freedom of speech and the rest, but even if smone expresses a slight hint of an opinion contrary to ours, we explode on them like a tonne of bricks. at the end we also philosophise saying " it is not good to assume an air of authority" It is there for all to see abt who assumed this air of authority.

I am a professor of history and i happened to buy this book after seeing these heated arguments on this forum which i visit regularly but never really registered or bothered to post as music is an interest and not an expertise area for me. I am really surprised that a book of this kind should even be getting the kind of negative attributes that an "erudite" member here is giving. It is a masterpiece, if nothing less. Picking sentences in random from the book, taking photocopies of random chapters from nowhere, cutting and pasting long articles from the internet and giving scores of lectures doesnt make one a historical authority either. No one here ever slandered JCW or his kritis. They were just enquiring whether the so-called rumours had credence and when one gentleman contacted the author, he too seemed to rebutt that claim as per his own admission in this forum. While rebutting it, he seems to be mentioning that yes, such talks have been going on and they cant be wished away just because someone doesnt like it. I cant imagine why that leads to so much adrenalin in a disgruntled member?

It took me a long time to read the book end-to-end despite me being v fast at reading--thanks to my profession ! But i stand amazed and humbled at the efforts of the young author who is not a historian but his treatise seems better than a lot of us historians. He analyses every chapter, every myth and legend like a surgeon and disposes what he feels is hogwash. WHile doing so he states clearly that this is his interpretation and no one can really be sure of what the REAL truth is since none of us can go back in time machine to see what happened. This is the right and philosphical approach to history. it is said in the vedanta that the eyes look, the mind sees. that is what history is and i am surprised that a youngster of 26 or so can subconsciosuly imbibe these historical theories without being trained in the subject. So i dont know what canard is being spread abt the mysore kings here other than in the mental landscapes of a few individuals. NO ONE, i repeat no one, can ever assert with authority on the correctnes of any historical event. That is why my professor in history in the US Mr JN Wilford called all "historical reports as interim reports" ...it keeps changing with time and with each generation's view point. If you rely only on the contemporary accounts of that period, and not add your perspective then you would most likely be flawed. Each set of historians even in yore had their agendas---court historians had to write in praise of the kings, british historians had to look down upon native customs, missionaries would have their agendas...communal issues also get in. So in such a compelx topic saying "i know the truth and no one else does" is akin to intellectual fascism. I am glad that the author doesnt do that and takes pains each time to say "this is my interpretation and it might differ from someone else".

People who know abt publishing would also know that index is created seldom for the protagonist of the book...a "wodeyar" appears in EVERY page of the book. so having an index for the wodeyars is meaningless and to pick on that and say ithat shows disregard for the wodeyars is such a friviolous way of looking at things. My suggestion would be---please buy or read the book first....not random photocopies and scans sent by some friends here and there...answers to the curse and whatever would be got thereafter.

For the sake of history, i hope self righteous spokespersons vanish soon! but having started off berating the lack of freedom of expression, i would say we need a variety in this world after all, for entertainment !

[shruti]

But one should not assume an air of authority either. Good luck to you .

Good that you realised your own folly in this regard!! as an elderly person i bless and wish u well..

Sorry elderly Gentlemen,

I have never assumed an air of authority, i have quoted from available records and not indulged in gossip .

Thanks for the blessing .

[shruti]

People who know abt publishing would also know that index is created seldom for the protagonist of the book...a "wodeyar" appears in EVERY page of the book. so having an index for the wodeyars is meaningless and to pick on that and say ithat shows disregard for the wodeyars is such a friviolous way of looking at things. My suggestion would be---please buy or read the book first....not random photocopies and scans sent by some friends here and there...answers to the curse and whatever would be got thereafter.

!

Well Professor, my comments here started only because of some remarks attributed to the author. i had to obtain a copy of the article to know whether the author states this particular fact, as it was relevant to our discussion here. As for as Wodeyars , there were 25 in all (excluding the present scion). Of all the books on Mysore History i have the occasion to read, all of them have index on the individual rulers and chapters exclusively devoted to them.

As for reading the book, when i have read almost all the original authorities, i did not consider it necessary to read an Untold Story . Thanks for the suggestion .

[arasi]

Iconoclast,
A few of us were trying to voice our views, and as days went by, got reluctant about saying anything at all. The reason is obvious. You came along and put things in the right perspective. A professor of history, you have read the book and have approached it in a scholarly manner. A young man, purely because of his sentiments for his princely place of origin and because of his interest in its illustrious son JCW, has gone to the trouble of writing this book. I
If one is greatly interested in the subject matter, the best way to go about one's reaction to is by reading the book and mentioning the merits (the book seems to have them) and then pointing out the flaws. JCW would have disapproved of such a virulent crusade. Just as we do, he would have wondered, 'against what?' In spite of so many quotes, sruthi did not take into account the intent and efforts of the writer. Even my harmless humor was taken to be sarcasm and all those who said something about the topic were retorted at.
Anyway, what you say so well should put an end to this tirade.
While I was waiting for the input of a few on the forum who know a lot on this subject and could have stemmed the negative statements in the thread, you chipped in and I thank you for that--yes, I do recognize the fact thatall this has had one positive outcome: your finally deciding to post on the forum!
Welcome!

[iconoclast]

Dear Ms. Arasi

Yes, i have been seeing that people like you, CML and others have been moderating voices on this thread and i was hoping there would be light at the end of the tunnel. I seldom react to inconsequential talk but this was somehow getting too unbearable for me. I somehow saw myself in this young author whom i have not had the pleasure of knowing or meeting but have been reading quite regularly about him in the newspapers these days. South Indian history being my area of interest, the fact that someone had even bothered to write about Mysore (given the great difficulties we as research scholars faced while procuring documents) caught my attention. Like all high browed professors i also saw the entire thing with a lot of scepticism, especially with media reports of the author being a non historian and such. It felt like yet another whiz kid trying to make hay in media glare. But refusing to make pre conceived opinions i decided to buy the book and read it. And spell bound was the word! For a lay reader wile there are innumerable stories and legends to pass time with, for a serious seeker of history there are precious take aways---not only in the content, but also the style of presentation and understanding of history. Even now i stand amazed how a person "uncorrupted" by the JNU's and Oxfords can visualise history this way in a dispassionate manner. I made all my students read the book and told them if history needs to be read, studied and understood, then this is how it has to be. I dont think there could be a greater service in the modern days to the cause of Mysore and its wonderful Maharajas than this book.
And when this rabid muck raking was going on here and i saw that mst of you (rightly so!) decided to let the canine pass and had gone silent, it just went beyond my tolerance levels and i had to write to get it out my system (despite not wanting to post in this forum ever and displaying my ignorance abt Carnatic music !!!) If any of you is genuinely interested in mysore history, please read this book. It is way too expensive to buy, so atleast in a library, but please do !! Thats all i can say!

[cienu]

Dear arasi and iconoclast,

Well said ! Infact shruti did put across very interesting points for discussion which were extremely good , quoted highly knowledgeable people and this thread could have taken off very well for a good and lively debate.

Except that tragically, the language and tone of shruti was extremely hurting that one did not want to particpate.

Really sad , because in written communication we have an opportunity to fine tune what we want to say without offending the feelings of others.

[iconoclast]

Dear Cienu

I agree with you completley!! the points raised were indeed useful. My only point was there was absolutely no need for getting so defensive or virulent because:

1. Nowhere in the book is it mentioned that JCW was a lesser musician or someone composed kritis for him. (the book incidentally is not a book on JCW or his contributions to Carnatic music, that is just a small chapter in a long narrative on the political history of Mysore from 1399 onwards)

2. The gentleman who began this thread mentioned that he had wrongly understood what the author said to him in person and also made this point clear to all of us, Apologised to us and also to the author for attributing things that he didnt say and pulling him into a debate of this standard.

3. The author himself wrote to clarify that he doesnt endorse these views and that the other gentleman might have mistakingly understood something else and he wished to clear the air for good.:rolleyes:

With these 3, i am sure the matter should have rested for good and all of us should have gone home smiling thinking a few more facts were added in our knowledge abt Mysore hisotry and we ahve a new book to read now!!! Instead all we got was a dirunal tirade of excrutiatingly long posts and quotes, irrlevantly thrown at our face on a daily basis which was trying to prove to us that "look isnt JCW great...X interviewed him and felt so...Y met him and felt so...and look at all of you, who werent born then and you dispute X, Y....how could you??" none of us dispute that anyway that JCW was a remarkable scholar of great repute. So what was this fuss all about except to gain some cheap brownie points? Just because the internet is a free place doesnt mean we create a public nuisance of ourselves and throw all etiquette to the winds...

Someone in ths thread mentioned that it is wrong to assume a king can not compose or do anything creative. Equally wrong i suppose is to disallow even a harmless discussion that goes against a particular king or queen and send all the victims to the gallows, just because someone feels its blasphemous to even entertain such a thought. As Arasi mentioned, even JCW wouldnt have adopted such an irrational and fascist approach!

But what completely ticked me off and forced me to write was needless nitpicking like index, some newspaper review, references to Wikipedia being more superior and so on --when the indivual by his own admission states that beyond that chapter on music they had not read. anything else in the book, I've been a silent spectator in this forum for a long time and hesitated from posting because i am not a carnatic musician or an expert on the art, but just love the idiom, it was always left to "experts" to talk and for me to hear and learn from their discussions. But when it came to nitpicking on history, its authenticity or style of presentation---some of which i feel i have a little experience in---i felt it was now my turn to talk as an "expert" and not do disservice to a young man who has done far beyond his age and peers in serving my subject.
How regularly do we hear bemoans from people of my generation (in the late 50's -early 60's) that the young crowd of today has totally lost touch with the country, its heritage, our customs and all that...that MTV rules these days...and in the midst of all that depressing talk abt youngsters (which i dont personally is true), we do find a few rare individuals who actually reserach on a topic of the past and write with such flourish. even if the narrative has some flaws, its ok for a first-timer. A Sachin tendulkar didnt hit a century in the very first match he played, did he?? but he certainly showed he has the potential and that is what i, as a historian, can see in this book and the author.
But such banal diatribe might jhave ust disillusioned him for good and he might never ever think of writing abt history henceforth and as a man wedded to the subject since decades, it was a duty to set things in the right perspective. I dont know if i succeeded because as they say 'after the calm comes a storm' , may be its just the beginning of another plethora of long posts, internet links, google books and wikipedia references:) so fellow members, being forewarned is being fore-armed:D
But historical research and documentation sadly doesnt happen through posting internet links and worse, through howls !!

[asrini]

Dear Iconoclast

I was very moved by your last post.

I have been observing, for quite some time, the animosity of several people on this forum, not just for Vikram's book, but for a number of attempts made by young people who do not belong to the list of those "approved" (and that is an understatement!). As a younger generation musician, I was once attacked on this very forum (once again saved by broad-minded individuals such as arasi) for attempting something new. As a student of social psychology, I have often found it interesting to observe, at a microcosmic level, the notion of resistance to change at such proximity! It is also common practice in this forum for several people to pass judgment, compare several masters of art forms as easily as one would compare the Lexus and the Corolla - a system of attributes, features, and meaningless differentiators. Not only does this discourage several new "rasikas" but it completely drains artists of positive energy and a will to create.

Constructive criticism has always been welcome, but not the unbridled fanaticism I observe across several issues, new ventures and what I loosely term "change" for lack of a better description. Passion is a great thing, but obsession can become counterproductive to everyone.

However, that said, the experience taught me a lot and helped me grow to believe in my effort even more. I am sure Vikram has benefited immensely from this as well.

I really feel good to observe people like you, arasi and cienu and the spirit of positive camaraderie you foster with your contributions. Thank you.

Anil Srinivasan

[iconoclast]

Dear Anil,

I am a keen follower of your music and i share your sentiments on this larger plane of growing intolerance among people in India today towards anything that doesnt suit their prescribed norms or mental convictions. THis wasnt the case even some 25-30 yrs ago and sadly with advancement in material spheres of life, mentally we seem to be on a retrograde path. It scares me personally as a rasika, as a connoeisuer that fascism of the mind can block any creative output. Protest by all means, but within the precincts of decorum and decency...and most importantly after reading or understanding thoroughly what you are seeking to attack. In our haste to rebutt, we forget we are making a colossal fool of ourselves in public!

I feel history and music are quite deeply interlinked in their approach at unravelling. Both are in a way 'manodharmic'. A musician like you exposes a raga in an alapana or so, which could be different from someone else's exposition of the same raga, though both of you adhere to the basic rules, scales etc of that melodic entity. SImilarly Vikram's interpretation of an issue could be different from shruti's or mine, though all of us speak within the confines of the same set of facts available to mankind---unless of course either Vikram or Shruti have suddenly become privy to unknown, mysterious information. That would be a historical discovery, much like may be the discovery of a new raga!

But having said that i would say History is more complex than music because it deals with human behaviour --which is after all the most unpredicable, unexplainable and un-documentable. In our limited life spans, if i ask 10 of Shruti's friends to write a 1000 word essay on him, i would get different versions. So if i am the one sitting and collating these 10 versions and bringing a common essay, imagine my plight! All the 10 would be both right and wrong in a way...some know certain aspects abt shruti, some know smthing else, some like him, some hate him...now if the same problem is taken back to writing abt a person who lived 200 or 500 or even 60 years ago, when we arent evn sure how the society, people's mindsets, etc were and whose accounts we are to consider sacrosanct----imagine the challenge that a young man like Vikram might have faced....may be multi-manifold more than a musician seeking to unravel a raga?? and despite that if he has come to some level of coherence and common ground, lets just be graceful and applaud and acknowledge. We lose nothing by congratulating a fellow human being and that too someone younger than us! Its a pleasure always to see our children do better than us...But yes, if there are factual errors or huge gaps in understanding data (which to a large extent in my view dont exist in this book...and some other schoalr privy to some other information might well disagree) then let us inform the author abt it...im sure hw would take it in the right spirit and mend it , if he sees merit in the arguments being placed. That is why i said alll historical reports are interim reports....Vikram's book might have displaced some other authoritative book on Mysore History. if Shruti has betterinformation then his book can replace Vikram's and a couple of years later some other individual's book can displace Shruti's....its almost a continuum of life and not always a linera progression like scientific discoveries...

But i really do hope Shruti sees reason and merit in being a pacifist, that we are all not here to desert him on a desreted ship, nor are we shouting our heads off at him; but just trying to tell him that we can make our points in a way that dont impinge on other's sensitivites...and what better time for all of us on this thread to reconcile than the Birth anniversary celebrations of HH JCW, coming up in a few days (18th July).