Dr. Shrikaanth K Murthy

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 27 Apr 2006, 02:02

Is that hidden mudra by chance the word Jote(a) in

jotayiraNA

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 27 Apr 2006, 02:07

DRS
right on!

In his book AK has given the title
Sri rAmar sIthayaik KaNdu aiyural
(Rama lookin at sIta and doubting)
Hence clearly the composer meant the song to be the thought process of Rama himself!

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 27 Apr 2006, 02:11

CML
What was AK`s time? Surely he did not publish the book himself!!!

In the song. I think pAngiyar means female companions(tOzhiyar). I cant make out the words after that yet.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 27 Apr 2006, 02:12

This is in Sri raga.
The second line is
nArImaNikaNT...
You can put them together to get the name of the composer/singer

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 27 Apr 2006, 02:12

DRS
right on!

In his book AK has given the title
Sri rAmar sIthayaik KaNdu aiyural
(Rama lookin at sIta and doubting)
Hence clearly the composer meant the song to be the thought process of Rama himself!

Also, the 2nd caraNa, "peNgal pArkkappArkka nOkkum koLLumO kaNgaL" would refer to rAma, not sIta I think.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 27 Apr 2006, 02:13

DRS

I am just repeating your thought elsewhere! The composer has the final say

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 27 Apr 2006, 02:14

This is in Sri raga.
The second line is
nArImaNikaNT...
You can put them together to get the name of the composer/singer

Got it now...

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 27 Apr 2006, 02:21

---
Got it now...

Got what? hey!. CML is misleading you?

DRS

I am just repeating your thought elsewhere! The composer has the final say

LOL

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 27 Apr 2006, 02:25

CML
Arunachala kavirayar lived in the 18th century(1711-1778). You must be kidding that he himself published his compositions. Given this impossibility, you are as much privy to his thoughts as I am

So 2nd caraNa is unlikely to refer to sItA.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 27 Apr 2006, 02:33

DRS
manuscripts have been recovered. If you can give credence to T's compositions you should respect AK too!

again
sIta is femininity personified. A woman belonging to the 'padmini jaathi'. She will never look at another man in the face. Let alone stare and fantasize. It is uncharacteeristic. Vaalmiki does not have this episode! Kamban did it for poetic reasons. We do not want o get sIta mixedup with girls of today

do we

kiran
The raga is dhanyasi and not sri!

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 27 Apr 2006, 02:37

DRS
manuscripts have been recovered. If you can give credence to T's compositions you should respect AK too!-

Your are getting me wrong here. T`s interpretations are not his own. It is what we make of his songs. Likewise for AK. thats all. anyway, lets not deviate from the topic under discussion.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 27 Apr 2006, 03:50

without interrupting the trend may I ask whether there is a 'famous' rendering of Ramayana in kannada? Are there any in sanketi too?

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 27 Apr 2006, 03:57

without interrupting the trend may I ask whether there is a 'famous' rendering of Ramayana in kannada? Are there any in sanketi too?

I heard about one recent one by Kuvempu?

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 27 Apr 2006, 04:20

without interrupting the trend may I ask whether there is a 'famous' rendering of Ramayana in kannada? Are there any in sanketi too?

Are you talking of song or poetry/epic? There are dEvaranAmas dealing with rAmAyaNa although they are not "famous" as far as I can recall! Poetry/kAvya yes! Three famous ones-

pamparAmAyaNa or rAmacandra carita purANa of nAgacandra(also called abhinava pampa)

torave rAmAyaNa by kumAravAlmIki (about 5- 6 centuries old)

SrI rAmAyaNadarSanam of K.V. puTTappa(the j~nAnapITha winner popularly known as kuvempu). Congrats suji on recalling this.

Veerappa Moily(Former CM) has recently written "Sri rAmAyaNa mahANvESaNam".

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 27 Apr 2006, 04:33

DRS
perhaps I was not clear. I was looking for something like
kambaramayanam in Tamil
exhuththachan Ramayanam in malayalam
Tulsiramayanam in Hindi ec',

I guess in telugu the one by bhodana is very popular which Thyagaraja avidly studied.
(I am not looking for one like Rajaji's chakravarthy thirumagan

)

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 27 Apr 2006, 04:33

SO, bottom line: rAma is struck by sItA and wonders, yArO, ivar yArO?
My friend was correct then....
CML,
The dance I referred to was choreographed by the Dhananjayan's, if I remember correctly. I am not sure if RDA used this song in her sItA kalyANam ballet.
Thanks, for the translations.
Suji Ram, you can refer to me as Ravi or Shankar...
Ravi

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 27 Apr 2006, 04:42

DRS
perhaps I was not clear. I was looking for something like
kambaramayanam in Tamil
exhuththachan Ramayanam in malayalam
Tulsiramayanam in Hindi ec',

I guess in telugu the one by bhodana is very popular which Thyagaraja avidly studied.
(I am not looking for one like Rajaji's chakravarthy thirumagan )

CML
I have answered your question appropriately. ALl the ones mentioned by me are kAvya, not prose. No comparison with Rajaji`s

By the way the telugu poet is pOtana, not bhOdana.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 27 Apr 2006, 04:43

Shankar/others
Just to get out of tension!

A husband and wife were living on the 50th floor in an apt in Manhatton. When they arrived home the lift was not working. They climbed all the way to the 50th floor. Now the husband says I have forgotten my key downstairs. The wwife responded I too have mislaid my key. Unfortunately no cell phones those days. What does this remind you from Ramayana.

Answer (since all of you don't know Tamil;

aNNalum 'No key' nnaan avaLum 'No key' nnaaL
(though you may laugh it was no laughing matter for them

)

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 27 Apr 2006, 04:57

Shankar/other--
aNNalum 'No key' nnaan avaLum 'No key' nnaaL
(though you may laugh it was no laughing matter for them )

good one

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 27 Apr 2006, 05:03

------
Suji Ram, you can refer to me as Ravi or Shankar...
Ravi

Ok Ravi,
Call me Suji

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 27 Apr 2006, 05:14

Pl don't quote the whole message. Take only the snippet that is relevant. We need not waste space

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 27 Apr 2006, 05:33

some points to note in the dhanyAsi khaNDa. The word "maTTi" has been used meaning vanquished and not a word for slaying as mArIca was spared.

"naSiyAda aghu taricavu~n"- The blemish/ sin of being unchaste is something which cannot be wiped(naSiyAda). Yet, with His divine grace, there is no sin that cannot be destroyed.

Janaka was given the title "sIradhvaja" because of finding sItA at the end of the plough. Hence she was not actuallly born of him. "sIrAnkaje" thus hints at this by circular formation. Actually it is a pun as sIrAnkaje can also be obliquely interpreted as meaning "Her from whom was born the sIrAnka".
(Note similar use of "karNasUnO" in MD`s sUryamUrtE)

dhanyA is a name of lakShmI found in the lakShmI sahasranAma and hence this implies that sItA is none other than lakShmi. The meaning of the word also gives rise to this interpretation.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 27 Apr 2006, 06:01

dhanyA is a name of lakShmI found in the lakShmI sahasranAma

Way to go, DRS....
'dhanyAm hiraNmayIm lakshmIm, nityapushTAm vibhAvarIm'

CML,
nAngaLum nO key nOm, rasittOm.

BTW: 'mUkkum muzhiyumAi irukkiradu' - at least in my mother's words meant a figure of speech meaning 'very beautiful' (to irritate her, my sister and I would say that the 'drishtiparihAra' pumpkin also had big eyes and a large nose, so, would she consider it beautiful!)

Suji,
So noted!
Ravi

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 27 Apr 2006, 06:08

Way to go, DRS....
'dhanyAm hiraNmayIm lakshmIm, nityapushTAm vibhAvarIm'-Ravi

That is from the aShTOttara. Thanks.
?Way to go where?

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 27 Apr 2006, 06:22

[quote=""drshrikaanth""]

?Way to go where?

[/quote]
Way to go with meaning within meaning within meaning! chippi kuLLE muttu, muttu kuLLE mANikkam and so on...
Ravi

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 27 Apr 2006, 06:25

Again there is nice aadya and antya praasa, viz.,
mAri.. nArI... gaurI... sIra (not that good)
bharicavu~n ....taricavu~n ...moricavu~n....varicavu~n as also yAgu and daghu

(I can't say whether there are any svaraaksharams since you have not heeded to my request

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 27 Apr 2006, 06:32

Again there is nice aadya and antya praasa, viz.,
mAri.. nArI... gaurI... sIra (not that good)
bharicavu~n ....taricavu~n ...moricavu~n....varicavu~n as also yAgu and daghu

(I can't say whether there are any svaraaksharams since you have not heeded to my request

For Adi prAsa, the swara on the 2nd letter does not matter. Only the consonant/vyanjana matters. so "ra, ri, ru"- perfectly ok. antyaprAsa, yes, the swara on the last letter should be identical PLUS, the vowel on preceding consonant should be of same length(hrasva or dIrgha). AdiprAsa(dvitIyAkShara prAsa) is mandatory while antyaprAsa is optional. I have maintained bothe thorughout. (In hindi and hindUstAni compositions, the antya prAsa is mandatory!)

I wish you knew kannaDa as I could have scanned the series of articles I wrote for the music journal "ananya abhivyakti" on chandas in musical compositions a several years ago.(sangItadalli chandovicAra

srinidhi · Post by **srinidhi** » 27 Apr 2006, 17:44

Amonst the various Ramayanas, Tulsidas dwells a great deal on the garden encounter. Sita who has gone to perform worship to Gouri, is struck by the beauty of Rama. Her companions inform her that this is indeed the same prince about whom the whole Mithila was talking about the previous day. The early morning Sun casts a few beads of perspiration on Rama's forehead who is plucking flowers for Vishwamitra's puja . Sita becomes very concerned and wonders anxiously :if a very simple task like plucking flowers can cause this young man to break into sweat, how would he bend and break the Great Bow? Hence her ferverant appeal to Godess Gouri.

To maintain propriety, Tulsidas clarifies, that the two do not look into each other directly. This is done only at at the auspicious muhurtha when the the antarpat( the screen between the bride and the groom) is removed. This is a common feature in many north indian weddings. Moreover, Sita looking at Rama does not impair Her chastity since the two were Husband and Wife in Vaikuntha (As MahaVishnu and SriLakshmi)

That night, Rama who has also been similarly enamoured by Sita's Beauty confides his thoughts to Lakshman saying that even the full moon is in no comparison to Sita's mukharavind. Rama explains hastily that those born in the glorious Raghuvansh do not even think, let alone look at other women (thus subtly implying that he considers Sita to be His.)

This is a beautiful episode and gives me goose bumps everytime I read it.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 27 Apr 2006, 18:32

Lovely episode and very nice narration. Thanks srinidhi.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 27 Apr 2006, 20:04

Character(nayaka) mudre= Rama in 1st Khanda

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 27 Apr 2006, 20:07

Character(nayaka) mudre= Rama in 1st Khanda

Full marks Suji,

. God work. Also rAmacandra is also the iShTadEvatA mudre.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 27 Apr 2006, 20:44

Here are the actual words of Tulsidas himself:

bahuri gauri kara dhyana karEhu|
bhUpakisOra dEkhi kina lEu||
sakuci sIya^N taba nayana udArE|
sanamukha dOu raghusimgha nihAre||
nakha sikha dEkhi gama kai sObhA|
sumiri pitA panu manu ati chObhA|| (Ramacaritamanas 233)

sIta's companions said:
'meditate on gauri afterwards. behold the princes now'.
Bashfully sIta then opened her eyes, saw the two lions of raghu(race) opposite her.
From tip of (toe) nails to (top of) head the effulgence
remembered father's vow with concern

A commentator adds that it was 'toe nail to top of head' in contrast with 'head to foot' according to west since in India in those days girls, especially Sita who was the embodiment of feminine vitues will never take the audacity to look straight into the eyes of a suitor.
Again she feels concern for the vow made by her father since arranged marriages were the order of the day.

All these invocations of divinity etc., do not find place in Valmiki Ramayana where he is trying to depict Rama as a mortal (worth emulating). There indeed must have been a historical basis for the story of Ramayana though Poets can let their dream horses ride high

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 27 Apr 2006, 21:38

-----There indeed must have been a historical basis for the story of Ramayana though Poets can let their dream horses ride high

http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/a ... artak.html

Books have been written by erudite and acclaimed scholars on this.

Another person has come up with different dates though.

http://www.hvk.org/articles/1103/77.html

The biggest damage British rule did and Engislh education is doing is to doubt our own culture and history and dismiss it as myth and lore. Someone said we are all "McCaulay`s children"

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 27 Apr 2006, 22:08

Thanks DRS for giving those references.
Astronomy has been a strong point in our ancestors!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 27 Apr 2006, 22:19

DRS
Thanks for those refs.
Here is the joke
"The War begins 3rd November 7292 B.C
Kumbhakarna is killed 7th November 7292 B.C.
Ravana is killed by Rama 15th November 7292 B.C.
Rama returns to Ayodhya 6th December 7272 B.C."

Rama returns to ayodhya before the war begins

(How should we reckon months for B.C ?)

Look at AK writing
"paangiyar inamum thuraiththanamum "
Doesn't he regal deportment as 'thraiththanam'. Even the battle of Plassey has not taken place yet!
Or is 'thurai' an ancient dravidian word?

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 27 Apr 2006, 22:30

-----

Rama returns to ayodhya before the war begins
(How should we reckon months for B.C ?)-----

tch! tch! You need to be careful. We are talking of BC here, not CE CML.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 27 Apr 2006, 22:32

Srinidhi's description and the verses quoted by CML can be heard here set to wonderful music.
http://www.dishant.com/album/tulsi_rama ... manas.html

The scene in the garden starts at around 32 minutes into 'bAlkAnd part 1'. The conversation between rAm and lakshman occurs first, because he sees her first. tulsI's description of sItA through rAm's eyes is lovely (he recognizes her as janaka sutA, and that the dhanuryagNa is for her hand, and tells Lakshman that her face is the moon, and her eyes 2 chakOrs). CML's verses come in at the very end, when she sees them.
The alpha male voice is Mukesh, the female voices are Vani Jairam (I am sure) and Dilraj Kaur (not too sure).
The 'chaupAyI' style of singing can be heard as well in some places.
Ravi

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 27 Apr 2006, 22:33

Or is 'thurai' an ancient dravidian word?

yes turai(T), dore(k) are ancient words.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 27 Apr 2006, 22:48

Ravi
Thanks for the audio of rAmcaritamAnas. Vani Jayaram has a lovely voice so very suitable for bhajans. The recitation starts nicely with sALagabhairavi. Please give timeline for caupAyi style so we all can understand and appreciate.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 27 Apr 2006, 23:05

To recapitulate- the SrIkhaNDa has rAga mudre(SrI), tALa mudre(dhruva) and the nAyaka mudre, rAja mudre and dEvatA mudre(all 3 being rAmacandra here).

(SrIkhaNDa-a delicious sweet of Karnataka and Maharashtra! What can i say except recall tirukkuRaL

sevikku uNavillAda pOZhdu siRidu |
vayiTRiRkum IyappaDum ||

When there is no food for the ears, then some food will be given to the stomach.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 27 Apr 2006, 23:37

Ravi
Please give timeline for caupAyi style so we all can understand and appreciate.

Shrikaanth,
Check 'bAlkAnd End part': the first 50 seconds or so are in chaupAyI style. The whole of the RCM is supposed to be sung that way, or recited in the way from 1:20 min to 2:17.
You are correct about vAni jairAm...that pitch suits these kinds of songs well.
Ravi

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 28 Apr 2006, 00:27

Cheers Sankar..

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 28 Apr 2006, 01:09

Thanks ravi
Suji and CML, yours were the two votes for the notation now. As I had asked for a minimum 5 ayes and the rest were not forthcoming, I added up the 3 votes from my side. BINGO

http://rapidshare.de/files/19052995/rAm ... y.pdf.html

Although I understand human curiosity to see everything at once, I request all that you do not study in detail, parts that have not yet come up for discussion. Let us take our time and concentrate on what we are seeing now.

Thanks Mohan for the swaram font.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 28 Apr 2006, 01:17

Great DRS!!!!!
beautiful picture(s)

You squared our votes and added yours!

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 28 Apr 2006, 01:26

DRS
You missed me from your count

. Iam on it too...

Thanks for the notation

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 28 Apr 2006, 02:25

It would have been 4, had I not missed the call for votes.

Nicely done DRS. Embedded pictures enhance the experience.

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 28 Apr 2006, 02:38

DRS

Reading through the lyrics of the Suladi. Pictures make it more interesting. Especially those Tanjore style paintings. I would have to sya that Iam having lot of trouble in pronouncing the words as Iam not familiar with the language.
Thanks anyway for the notation.....

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 28 Apr 2006, 02:44

Thank you^infinity
Now I can hear enjoy and analyze each segment leisurely.
Those pictures (some of them seem to be special) are great. You should explain them in context.

You forgot to mention
SriKhaND automatically refers to the composer's name

It is also a favourite savoury (which I cannot eat freely

) in TN!
(Now I have to hunt to see whether Sahana is hiding somewhere

)

You must share some of the lesser known facts on the ragas with us. Was not Sri an original meLakarta raga during Venkatamahi times. In fact it is MD's asampurna mela.

let us not ignore music in our enthusiasm for the storyline

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 28 Apr 2006, 02:55

CML
Its true that Sri is MD`s asampoorna mela with chaturasruthi daivatha. However, St.Thyagaraja dint use the Daivatha in many of his Sri raaga songs, especially Endaromahanubhaavulu. Perhaps DRS can enlighten us with some interesting facts...

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 28 Apr 2006, 03:39

I have also noticed that D is not much used in Shri Ragam...Even if it is present it always appears towards the end of the song like PDNPM...

I only learnt mInakshI gItam in shrI.