Pushy Artists (especially abroad)

[sadananthan]

Lot of time has been spent on pushy parents (NRI) and it is time to talk a bit about Pushy Artists, especially when they are in the US. Here is a typical scene

Venue: Cleveland State University Lounge or the Comfort Inn Lounge.
One of the parents (mostly the mom) walks around with her 7-8 year old son/daughter carrying a violin and meets this substantial crowd around a well known mridangist and a senior vocalist (not the seeeenior type who are already resting in the hotel as they do for most of the Aradhana). Such a crowd often gathers around this mridangist known for wry humour and personal attacks. Our friends, mom and child get closer and closer to the mridangist and the vocalist by pushing the others around so that they will be noticed by this centere of attraction vidwan. They are finally noticed and the vidwan comments"

[Nick H]

It would be nice to have translations please? Otherwise I think a lot of the story is lost on us non-Tamil-speakers.

Elsewhere we are writing about the possible effects of the downturn on the season and those to come. I'm sure that any reduction of sponsorship and performance opportunities will force artists into maximising their foreign earnings capability, something many of them have been fairly enthusiastic about for some time anyway.

I don't exactly criticise them for this: they have to eat, of course.

On the pushy front, we could probably take a look at pushy organisers too. I remember an occasion in London a few years ago where a well-known Carnatic instrumental duo were booked by the organisers of their event. They were approached independently by a London charity, and readily agreed to give a concert for them. Posters were printed and distributed. Regrettably, the organisers of the first event refused to let this happen, saying it would dilte demand for their tickets. Not much charity in the hearts of those guys.

[Raval]

Of course only the main artist can do this business. Visiting violinists and mridangists can not since word will spread that they are accompanying unknown vocalists in the US for money and will lose their place in Chennai.

Well, there is this Violnist who flies down to places between his concerts and stays from Tuesday to Saturday, charges $50 per student under the banner that he is a student of the Legendary Violinist. Despite the fact that he gets boarding and lodging free at the student's house. Also demands that the host find atleast 4 students who would come twice a week during his stay or the trip is not worthwhile!

There is also a Respected Mridangam Artist who only charges $15 per class and does it twice a week regularly from India and does not entertain classes when he is in USA.

It is a matter of luck for the parents who can find artists like the respected one that I just mentioned and not get stuck with the Greedy one's. After all, these Greedy one's either learnt from their dad or nearby relative and never paid even $5 for their class. It is just exploitation and wont last very long.

[cmlover]

While it is OK to cite cases and experiences without any names make sure your language is not offensive. While we at the Forum are interested in disseminating information on 'CM in the real world' , we do not relish being sued for slander
Also let the discussion be constructive, informative and educational and let there be no mud-slinging!

[arasi]

Nick,
Here goes:
jOrAip paNNinAi. yAr kiTTe kattukkaRai?: you did very well. who is your teacher?
ABC (trouble!) kiTTE sAr; from ABC, sir.
avaL sangItam kETka sangadamA irukkumE?: listening to he rmusic her music can be bothersome
ivar kiTTe kattukkungO. romba nalla pAdantaram: learn from her/him. She comes from a good school.
inda sangati....: She learnt this sangati from X. He stayed in our house and taught her.
namba Urile oru cachEri: we need to hold a concert in our town. Let the dear child play in it.
onga UrlE university irukkE?: (you will know this Nick) don't you have a university in town?

Nick,
Hope you have the patience to insert these lines wherever they fall in the text...

[VK RAMAN]

It seems like attack on a particular artist. We have several such sadists at work too.

[Nick H]

Thanks, Arasi, once again.

Far from being attacks on any individuals --- although I'm sure the narrators do have real events and real peple in mind --- I think that the stories that are told are probably events that occur regularly around the world.

In fact, as a postscript, I can almost hear the mother of that young girl complaining to me that such-and-such an artist charged so much to teach her child, in fact teach would not be the word, as the artist taught nothing; it was all a waste of money, but luckily the child's own genius suffices.

Hey ho! I don't suppose we'll ever manage to people the world with perfection! I think that the people who have too much money easily find ways to loose some of it: it is one task that always seems to attract help!

I might spend a few days in London soon. If anybody there requires any lessons, do let me know! It would be a rare opportunity to benefit as I pass on some of the things taught to me by my illustrious teacher Sri M Balachandar of ...err ...London.

Hmmm. I think I need to do a bit more work on my marketing technique!

[Raval]

Nick - You are just some local teacher -- no good. You need to be a "visiting artist" to be marketable.

[cmlover]

As Lord Polonius would say
Neither a borrower nor a lender be;
Aren't both to be blamed in this marketing strategy? It is the 'Ego' and the gullibility of the buyer that is exploited by the 'cunningness' and 'name-throwing' of the sales person.
If the used-car salesman sells through slick talk then it is the fault of the buyer!

Caveat emptor

[VK RAMAN]

Caveat emptor - a latin expression for "Let the buyer beware."

[arasi]

Nick,
I am hazarding a guess--.your marketing skills are below par in today's world. What you say about what one would hear from the parents--after hosting, paying a handsomely to the teacher--is on the mark. Just as Indian culture survives to this day after all the neglect and abuse it has faced, CM too, still moves and elevates us...

[Nick H]

CM too, still moves and elevates us...

Of course, this is the thing that we should not, and will not forget. It is why we are here.

I'm not against threads that look at the seamier side of our musical world. Artists are not saints, and I do believe that it is wrong to expect saintly behaviour of them. There are certainly a very few very remarkable individuals who's qualities do enhance their music, but, as in any field, the remarkable is rare.

...And even saints have to eat!

[vijay]

Well you don't expect an artiste to just gratefully accept "boarding and lodging" and be content with that. Why shouldn't artistes get due compensation for their services? If half baked financial whiz-kids can make millions of dollars on wall street what's wrong with our musicians charing $50 or whetever for their services. That translates to USD 100,000 a year even assuming they are in the US the whole year...I am sure a good number of NRIs make much more than that without contributing anything to this world other than their weight...It is time we put a higher value on our art and culture.

If a teacher does not do his job well, that's a different matter but if we want to rant about high wages, carnatic musicians are hardly the first ones that come to mind

[Sathej]

If a teacher does not do his job well, that's a different matter but if we want to rant about high wages, carnatic musicians are hardly the first ones that come to mind

Thats pretty much true. Agree fully on that.

Sathej

[arasi]

Isn't it funny that any thread starting with the word 'pushy' ends up being a thread about ambitious parents?
Of all people, as Vijay and Sathej feel, CM musicians cannot be blamed for demanding exorbitant remuneration.
By the way Vijay, not all of us americans are that rich either!

[gogopugo]

Juicy topic. The premise is so true. There are so many of these folks.

My gripe is with DEF of GHI.

He comes from such a traditional and solid patantharam.
So skilled as a performer and teacher.
Gyanasthan.
Fully understands what it takes to become a knowledgable performer.

But:

Tricks parents into thinking that their kid(s) are concert worthy and can easily be achived under his tutelage in a matter of months.
Sez, he will make a CD of the kid and promote that everywhere.
Leaves the kid to continue the learning under his students or his relative XYZ.
In the process swamps XYZ with so many students that he cannot get organized if his life depended on it.
Moves on to the next upcoming (coming soon at a concert near you) performer.
And yes, definitely guilty of some of what sadanathan rants about.

Another midwestern sucker.

Admin Note: Names of artists and the organisations they represent are not allowed, even if they are not the exact names and are merely similar sounding.

[srkris]

Sadanathan and gogopugo, please do not name any artist. Read the forum's rules and disclaimer (http://rasikas.org/rules), we do not encourage any personal attacks or slander and will co-operate with the law if a particular member's identity is sought on such charges, and this becomes easy when the particular member uses multiple IDs.

[cmlover]

Nick

You should market yourself at Chennai and you will be more successful
During my time there used to be a craze for foreign-visited-artistes which I sure hope has not faded Every prominant artiste wants to go abroad to add to his CV and his price goes up in the market. You are not just a London-returned vidvaan but a Londonian

Similar glamour exists in NA for Native Chennai CM artistes. Even the best local virtuoso is sidelined in favour of a mediocre Chennai artiste! There is a nice pithy proverb in malayalam
muRRatthu mullaikku maNamilla
which the late DMK leader Annathurai colourfully parodied as
maaRRaan thOTTatthu mullai maNakkum

(A local(household) jasmine has no flavour)

[arasi]

CML,
Nick looks and acts so local that he is 'uLLUr mADu' (part of the local cattle). The village's own cattle does not sell in the local market (Sandaiyil vilaikkup pOgAdu).

[Nick H]

There is such a simple cure for all of these ills: to learn the music just for the love of the music, rather than for the vanity of self or family, or with expectations of stardom.

But... as I said, people are just never going to be perfect.

[arasi]

A rare commodity of them all is idealism sprinkled with optimism--
So, you ARE valuable goods:)

[prashant]

There is such a simple cure for all of these ills: to learn the music just for the love of the music, rather than for the vanity of self or family, or with expectations of stardom.

Amen, Nick.

[thanjavooran]

Pushy artistes are as bad as NRI parents. My views regarding the workshops. One can wonder how workshop schedules are ' aired ' in a tamil monthly even before the vidwans could plan their visits abroad. Few enthusiastic தொணà¯ÂÂ

[arasi]

Pushy parents and greedy artistes that are around deserve each other. It is the children who are (and should be) their concern and ours. On the other hand, our focusing on a handful of these people takes away the merit and value of all other dedicated teachers and parents who are doing a great job of keeping CM alive and well, thousands of miles away from India..

[Dhanavendra]

Well said Arasi
You have a mature outlook. Blessed are the children who get to learn under great gurus who respect art for art's sake and not the money it brings. Likewise such children would be doubly blessed if their parents are not pushy and do not want their wards to get a concert platform within 6 months of learning. Parents and teachers need to understand that children are the future of carnatic music and if we can imbibe in them real values that the Trinity stood for it would be great. Tapas means intense struggle towards perfection. Now-a-days children are not allowed to do tapas. Everybody wants their wards to be super performers the moment they learn sa pa sa. Parents do have a responsibility towards their wards. One has to wait for the seeds to be sown well so that one can reap a good harvest. Already music profession is a rat race. Please don't let it happen while children are still young and are just learning. No art comes easy. Only intense struggle for years and years can nurture and nourish it to blossom.

[ctu_rules]

Raval: You are the same person that objected to being called a pushy parent on another forum. We supported you then, but now you talk about pushy artists here. The subject here is controversial as such, and you make it no easier by joining.

Please note that there intelligent people on this forum. Please dont try to insult them. We know your identity and we know the artist you are talking about.

[gobilalitha]

Now, why not a little humour? .Some years back,a stout legendarysinger(who is very unfortunately not with us now)and other musicians were invited for a music festival at Pittsburgh Sri Venkateswara temple All of them stayed at my cousin's residence .The senior stout legendary musician was fond of vathakuzhambu My cousin prepared vathakuzhambu on all the 3 days. He took it on all the threedays, enjoying immensely ,gaining a kilo. The other vidwans feeling shy of asking the host for a change of menu ate whatever was offered , losing a kilo gobilalitha

[gobilalitha]

Before somebody pounces upon me labelling as smart alecky(asking me if the host checked the weight of the artists after 3 days,) it is only an injection of humour . gobilalitha

[srikant1987]

In addition to all this, I would like to add that the "concert format" adds to all this quick-result thing.

Since "concert format" is so thoroughly standardised, it looks like what's expected from someone is one varNam (preferrably aTatALam or some obscure tALam), one swift gaNapati kriti with a round of svarams with an impressive kOrvai in the end, and so on.

What should actually be expected is good music ... it's a subtle thing, and to produce that and know one produces it comprises true musical knowledge.

Because concert elements are so throughly fixed, it is expected that 8 kritis can be covered in 6 months, then three short alapanais in another 2 months, some svarams and a big AlApanai in another 2 months and so on.
---
It's like someone said about MMI singing vAtApi in every concert of his, and MMI saying he would be happy once he sang it perfectly. It's not as though two weeks, five classes, first two for the pallavi, third for anupallavi, and fourth and fifth for caraNam and vAtApi is over.

The same vAtApi matures as one gathers musical wisdom.
---
It is said that an average teacher "covers" the syllabus for a student, where as a great teacher guides the student to discover the deepest mysteries in the subject.

[sramaswamy]

Dhanavendra

Thats a very profound post of yours. Those are excellent points to value for people in carnatic music (and also true for any arts in general). However, I have to nitpick on the following line though.

Well said Arasi
You have a mature outlook. Blessed are the children who get to learn under great gurus who respect art for art's sake and not the money it brings.

Why do we need to think of respect for arts and money it brings as being mutually exclusively exclusive? The mere act of also making sure that you want to make money does not mean you do not hold the arts in high value. And who is to decide what is more or less money? As long as it does not go to the extent of extortion or blackmailing or obscene display of money, I feel it is all right to make sure that you earn enough as well. Now of course, one can ask what is obscene display of money? I am not getting into that chakra-vyuha.

[Dhanavendra]

dear vasanthakokilam and ramaswamyji

Thanks for your response. Rasikas are the trumpcard. These days we cannot blindly take one doctor's word. Thanks to internet if we get some insight into medical knowledge, we can take the doctor's word with a pinch of salt and go to another doctor for consultation. Likewise, rasikas should not merely get mesmerized with the voice of a vocal artist or nadam from an instrumentalist. With a little more knowledge one can become discerning without getting biased. I am not saying everyone should become experts. Rasikas must be sound enough to question the wisdom of organisers and sponsors in choosing who should perform. That doesn't mean that if rasikas are not there the artist is not good enough. Now a days rasikas are not discerning enough to spot artists who dont compromise on anything for getting a platform. Neither are modern day committee members and secretaries. In fact they are happy if there are hobnobbing artists around to pamper their inflated ego. It is a strange cycle wherein it is factors other than talent alone that propels artists to fame. So instead of fame, talent alone should be the criterion for selection. But if organisers and other players do not know what is talent then it is a sad situation. So rasikas are indeed the trumpcard. One can only correct oneself. I am a rasika and I can point finger at myself only. Organisers' big sized egos would get hurt if one says you are not discerning enough. Now undue importance to fame is the root cause of pushy parents and pushy artists. Thats why if rasikas can choose to listen to artists with adequate talent to protect the cause of carnatic music and are sure that such artists have come up on their own without any props of any kind then the word 'pushy' will be out of the carnatic dictionary.
ramaswamy sir, what i meant is that money needs to be only a means not an end for nurturing art.

[arasi]

Dhanavendra,
The great thing about RasikAs is that we have many experts here as members. There is always something to learn from them every day. There are those whose knowledge of CM is amazing. A few of them know all aspects of music. Others are very well versed in some particular areas. Hence, we have enough input to learn from here, if only we have the time and ability to assimilate what they all offer us.

[srikant1987]

These days we cannot blindly take one doctor's word. Thanks to internet if we get some insight into medical knowledge, we can take the doctor's word with a pinch of salt and go to another doctor for consultation. Likewise, rasikas should not merely get mesmerized with the voice of a vocal artist or nadam from an instrumentalist.

I beg to differ. Unlike a doctor, whose suggestions produce certain quantifiable changes in our body (lessening of temperature if we go to them with a fever, for instance), a musician's work is entirely different. How does it matter if they make a "wrong" piDi here or there, as long as they produce aesthetic music?

How does it matter if I put 18 grams of sugar in your tea instead of the 21 listed on the recipe-book, as long as you find it as refreshing?
---
The 21 grams is a suggestion -- one of the sure ways to make decent tea: the ultimate criterion to judge it should be how refreshing it is. To judge tea, you should drink it and see. Not chemically separate everything and see if they're in the right quantities.

[Dhanavendra]

Its time that such rasika power was harnessed into an ideal forum or more legally an Association. This forum should have eminent rasikas as committee members, Secretary and President. In the name of rasikas' choice, organisers are finalising the december season concerts. But rasikas are never consulted while choosing artists. The way out of 'pushy' syndrome is to allow the registered"Rasigar Madram" of Carnatic Music to become one of the players in matters of choice only during December season. At other times this forum should not interfere in the day to day functioning of sabhas. This judicious forum should have unbiased and knowledgable rasika-members who have a penchant to promote talent wherever it is available irrespective of the fact that the artists are famous or not. This would ensure that talented performance alone counts and not just fame. However, the choice of time slots becomes a ticklish issue which can be sorted out amicably if aritsts are rotated every year. Its a catch 22 situation. If an artist is famous, right time slot is never a problem. But to become famous you need right time slot. So the rat race for fame and compromise is sustained. Yet it is worth a try. Its a better way than debating endlessly about which popular artist is the best because finally members end up fighting among one another over non-issues. Already there is such a thread elsewhere which sadly reflects that rasikas also think like organisers and go after fame and popularity. Rasikas are led by organisers, organisers are led by sponsors, sponsors are led by artists, artists are led by media, media are led by a few critics, critics are led by personal opinions and bias and of course the rapport they enjoy with artists and their families. So the chain starts with rasikas and ends up with biased critics, a viscious cycle. One can see pseudo fights between artists and critics to hoodwink rasikas in the name of non-bias. Thus rasikas can consciously cut themselves from the rest of the chain not only by becoming more discerning and unbiased but also by insisting on involving themselves in the decision making process of December seasons. Once this utopian dream of "Rasika freedom" can be realised then there is a fantastic future for carnatic music. Rasika power vazhgha!

[arasi]

dhanavendra,
Before getting organized for organizing with organizers, let's see how many of us can manage to get together for a RasikAs get together during the season

[rshankar]

These days we cannot blindly take one doctor's word. Thanks to internet if we get some insight into medical knowledge, we can take the doctor's word with a pinch of salt and go to another doctor for consultation.

Sorry for the digression, but a couple of points here:

1) The idea of a second medical opinion should, in no way, be purely a consequence of the current internet age. It should happen routinely when the health-related issue is serious enough. IMO, when people are ready to check in several shops before buying some sabji to cook, seeking second, and even third opinions should not be so infrequent as it currently is. Part of this may be due to the fact that while one doesn't have to pay to enquire about the cost of sabji in 10 shops, one does have to pay a fee to each doc for his/her opinion.
2) Beware of everything that is written on the net (including this one)....

And to come back to the topic, how is seeking a second medical opinion similar to appreciating music - unless the idea is to modify one's opinion based on another's? If so, I'd rather not!

[arasi]

Ravi,
Docs and sabji wAllAhs--
While your lot hands us a bill with a smile,
The other kind pelts us with curses--for
Merely looking and not buying--the best
From the Chennai kAi kaRi wAlllAh

[Dhanavendra]

dear rshankar

Doctors and Artists are compared. Doctors are balm for the body and/or mind. Artists are balm for the soul. So with a little knowledge, if we can find how a doctor treats whether he or she is famous or not and find the diagnosis not satisfactory we can go to another competent doctor. Similarly with a little knowledge, if we find an artist, whether popular or not, to be not 'refreshing' enough or not having 'aesthetic appeal' as young Srikanth1987 put it, we can go to another artist who renders soulful music with 'right' pidi (vocalist , instrumentalists and percussionists) with bhava, vidhwat and creativity within tradition. He or she may not be popular. Fame and popularity need not be the criterion for 'refreshment'. 'Diagnosis' and 'Aesthetic appeal' must also be 'right' in order to blossom fully without causing any harm to 'body' or 'soul'. The comparison between artist and doctor ends here. The writer is not responsible for any further discussions on this comparisons because digressions obscure the reason for writing on this topic. Kindly address the main issue rather than the fringes. I don't write to score brownie points. Rasikas must profoundly contemplate and think ahead for the next 20 to 30 years and rectify factors causing deterioration of standard, if any. Or else just like citizens deserve their leaders as mentioned by Winston Churchill, mediocre rasikas will encourage mediocrity. When everyone else with a little awareness demands quality no matter the 'goodwill' of firms, why not rasikas is my question?