Dr. Shrikaanth K Murthy

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 24 Apr 2006, 06:10

Thanks Mohan. Before I come back with more queries, let me clarify somethings
There are no short cut keys below mandra M and above tAra P right? (you have said atitAra so am confused).
Also I just have word pad not MSword(I use star office). I cant see an option for inserting symbol(Swaram font). Could You please check and let me know if I can do it on wordpad? I will try with Star Office later.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 24 Apr 2006, 06:24

Yes above tara Pa - my mistake.

You should be able to get the other characters in WordPad by holding down the Alt key and typing 0169 on the numeric keypad. Try the range from Alt-0169 to Alt-0176 for the extra characters.

I am not familiar with Star Office but it is likely to have an Insert Symbol command.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 24 Apr 2006, 16:09

DRS

Why should Raama be compared with a Banyan tree here?

Black cloud because-Neela Megha Syaama- right?

I am happy for others to answer some questions. No need to wait for me always. I can always add my thoughts later.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 24 Apr 2006, 17:42

Mohan
Iam able to use Insert "special character" on Star Office. Thanks. As for softy, I will experiment and get back to you. Thanks

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 24 Apr 2006, 18:35

DRS,
Let me attempt to answer Kiran's question: you can add to it/correct it.
Kiran:
Here is a long-winded explanation for a simple question:
A banyan tree by its peculiarity (with areal roots and all) grows to very wide and large dimensions and offers refuge to many, many living beings: birds nest in it's secure branches, squirrles also make homes in the trunk, creepers use it for support to spread, and finally, many a weary traveller has rested in the shade that it provides. Thus, the banyan tree is used as a similie for someone who benefits/blesses/offers succour to many if not all living beings. And the Lord (rAmA, krishNA ...whatever form he may take) is just that - and that too, he is a samdarshI (meaning, everyone who seeks refuge is considered equal - there is no underserving person in his eyes). sUrdAs has a lovely composition on his being a samdarsI...
Ravi

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 24 Apr 2006, 19:50

Excellent job Ravi. It is not long-winded at all. Much to the contrary, this is the kind of discussion I would like. Do post the relevant lines from the sUrdAs bhajan
A few more thoughts.

The banyan, by virtues of its aerial roots, is virtually eternal. Also, it keeps striking roots even in unlikely places ad inexorably spreads far and wide. rAma and rAmAyaNa also have spread far and wide in the world and are still a very much vibrant part of cultures in the far east and south east. And rAma and his qualities are eternal.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 24 Apr 2006, 20:18

Tha banyan(vaTa, nyagrOdha) is also symbolic of knowledge/cit and parabrahma. The peculiarity of having roots above and stem below is said to represent knowledge. It is worth recalling her that Lord dakShiNAmUrti is seated beneath a banyan.
The banyan also represent the universe while its seed is the bIja.

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 24 Apr 2006, 21:35

Thanks both of you for that nice expanation.

Sankar!!!
Kindly post lyrics from that Surdas Bhajan..

Just a bit to add, Baby krishna sleeps on Vata pathra. Right?
Whats the story about?

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 24 Apr 2006, 21:37

Yes kiran vaTa is the same as banyan tree.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 24 Apr 2006, 21:39

The comparison of kArmugilu^ and rAma is on one level due to rAma`s dusky complexion. The inner meaning is that he is like a rainbearing cloud that showers life-giving rain and gives its all to one and all regardless of inequalities(samadarSi). He is the sutainer/life-giver-
sthiti karta.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 24 Apr 2006, 21:43

To summarise
" ye lass! rAmacandra will come and will always be with(us) owing to his boundless compassion. He is verily the banyan tree that gives refuge to one and all; And Oh! he is like the dark rain-laden cloud"

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 24 Apr 2006, 21:43

DRS
Thanks for explaining the inner meaning. It all makes sense now...

Sri Annamaacharya in some compostions uses a similar comparision...

"Gaaravinchi(kindly) Dappi(thirst) deerchu(quenches) Kaala meghamaa(cloud filled with Rain)"

sudarshan · Post by **sudarshan** » 24 Apr 2006, 22:49

Kiransurya: Just a bit to add, Baby krishna sleeps on Vata pathra. Right?
Whats the story about?

During the pralayam or the great deluge, with water covering the entire earth. With this all that's living and nonliving is annihilated. At this juncture, the only being around is the Divine, in the form of an infant, lying on a banyan leaf that is floating on the waters of the deluge. This infant has stored in his tummy those beings that are required during the next creation. This divine child is happily engrossed in chewing his toe, thus showcasing the fact that the Divine is indeed Sakshibhuta, the Eternal Witness.

Now, regarding why he chose this banyan leaf, the Lord answers in the Bhagavad Gita "Ashwattah Sarva Vrukshanam." He considers himself as nondifferent from the banyan tree and therefore, lies on a leaf of that exalted tree.

Thus, Sri Leelasukha in his SriKrishna Karnamrutham says:
|| Kararavindena padaravindam
Mukharavindena viniveshayantam |
| vatasya patrasya pute shayanam
Balam Mukundam manasa smarami ||

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 24 Apr 2006, 23:04

Darshan
aSwattha is not banyan but the peepul tree/araLi mara/arasa maram. (Ficus religiosa) while the banyan is Ficus indica. Both are considered sacred in our philosophy with some verlap of their significance.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 24 Apr 2006, 23:24

FYI- About the banyan tree.

In the light of these quotations, does not the significance of the banyan tree symbol appear almost self-evident? Without attempting to develop here the symboliism underlying the reference to the banyan tree as "the Tree orf Knowledge and the Tree of Life," let us turn our attention to the tree itself, under the mighty shade of which Vishnu, in one of his incarnations, is said to have reposed and there taught to men philosophy and sciences. It seems appropriate that, as Madame Blavatsky tells us,

under the protecting foliage of this king of the forests, the Gurus teach their pupils their first lessons on immortality and initiate them into the mysteries of life and death. (S.D., II, 215)

A mighty shade indeed an ancient banyan spreads, though yielding here and there a glimpse of sky. Its leafy vault sometimes extends over a very large area, sometimes more than a leaf-carpeted, sun-flecked acre. One can pass unhindered through the tree from side to side in any of several directions. Many small rooms, however, are outlined by the numerous aerial roots, stretching downward from nearly horizontal branches high above the ground. These roots have sometimes 20 feet or more to go before they reach and penetrate the soil. That once achieved, they thicken and form supporting pillars, indistinguishable in appearance from trunks. And ever from these, as well as from the upper branches, there spring fresh roots, sometimes in a cluster, sometimes intertwined, expressions of the exuberant vitality of the tree.

How easily can one imagine such a grove sheltering ancient teachers who, retiring to the forest, yet attracted pupils from near and far! And who knows whether the noble vault of such a giant tree might not from time to time have been the meeting place of Adepts from different quarters?

Apparently, even for the root that has reached and penetrated the soil, its contact with the branch or bole from which it sprang is vital, for here and there under the great tree's vault one sees a slender stump or huddled group of stumps standing erect, all bare and gaunt in contrast to the leafy verdure of the living tree.

A reflection of Marcus Aurelius seems sadly apposite in this connection. He wrote:

A branch lopped from its adjacent branch must of necessity be severed from the whole tree at the same time. And in exactly the same way, the man who sunders himself from any single one of his fellow-creatures drops out of the community.

Fortunately, though the root's severance is final and almost irrevocable, there is still hope for man. Marcus Aurelius recognizes a difference between "the branch that has from the first grown with the parent tree and continued to share one common life with it" and the branch once lopped off and then regrafted. But "it is in our power to grow once more to the branch we quitted, and resume our place as active members of the Whole."

The link

http://www.teosofia.com/Mumbai/7405banyantree.html

Another link

http://www.timesngage.com/fullstory.asp ... ART1242006

sudarshan · Post by **sudarshan** » 25 Apr 2006, 00:17

DRS, sorry for the mistake. Thanks for the clarification.

Ashwattah is indeed the Peepul.

|| Mulatho Brahma rupaya
Madhyatho Vishnu rupine
Agrathah shivarupaya
Vriksharajaya te namah ||

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 25 Apr 2006, 00:40

DRS/Kiran,
There are a few words that I don't rememmber (maybe Lji or Meena can help), but here is the composition by sUrdAs:

In this poem, sUrdAs seems very confident that the only reason he should not be granted nirvANA is if he is considered unworthy on acount of his sins, and he therefore, argues with the lord as his judge, that his sins should not come in the way of being granted salvation.

prabhujI mErE avgun chit na dharO
samdarsI prabhu nAm tihArO, apne panhi karO
ik lOhA pUjA mein rAkhat, ik ghar badhik parO
yeh dubidhA pAras nahin jAnat, kanchan karat duO
ik nadiyA, ik nAl kahAwat, mailO nIr bharO
jab milkE dOun baran hwai, sursari nAm parO
**** ***** sUr syAm jhagDO
ab kI bEri mOhE pAr utArO
nahin pan jAt TarO

prabhujI: Oh Lord
mErE: my
avgun: faults/sins/bad habits
chit: in your heart/mind
nA: don't
dharO: hold it

Oh Lord, please do not hold my faults in your mind (i.e.: please igmore my faults)

Afterall,
samdarsI: one who doesn't discriminate
prabhU: Lord
nAm: name
tihArO: yours
apnE: your
pan: promise
karO: keep it

Afterall, you are called samdarsI (one who treats everyone, saints and sinner alike), so it is now time to keep your promise.

To convince Him further, sUrdAs offers some examples, which is my favorite part:

ik: one
lOhA:(piece of) iron
pUjA mein: in the place of worship (either as an idol, or as a pUjA utensil)
rAkhat: is placed
ik: one
ghar: house (of)
badhik: butcher
parO: is found
yEh dubidhA: this problem
pAras: the alchemist's stone
nahin: doesn't
jAnat: know
kanchan: gold
karat: makes
duO: both

Just like the alchemist's stone that can't tell the piece of iron that has been sanctified by being placed at the altar, or being used in worship from the butcher's kinfe: upon it's touch, both of them are transformed to gold...(iron: sinner ---being transformed to gold: being elevated in status, attaining nirvANA), please disregard my sins and grant me salvation.

ik: one
nadiyA: river
ik: another
nAl: stream
kahAwat: is called
mailO: dirty
nIr: water
bharO: (is) filled with
jab milE: when the streams merge
dOun: of the two
baran hwai: and start to flow
sursari: the celestial river, i.e. gangA
nAm parO: take the name of

When the gangA merges with a dirty stream filled with refuse, it continues to remain the pure and unpolluted celestial stream or sursarI (unfortunately, a literal interpretation of this allegory has resulted in the most polluted ganges!). Similarly, if you allow this sinner to become one with you, your sanctity will continue to remain unsullied.

sUr: the poet/his mudra
syAm: krishNa - his ishTa dEvatA
jhagDO: a fight

ab kI bErI: for now
mOhE: me
pAr utArO: take me across and let me off
nahin: otherwise
pan: promise
jAt TarO: (you will) break

The poet then says, enough of this arguement between me (sUr) and you (syAm): for now, just take me across the bhav sAgar, or stand to break your promise (of being a samdarsI).

Once agin, it is a bit long-winded!
Ravi

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 25 Apr 2006, 00:42

Sudarshan and DRS
Thanks for that nice clarification...(That was a nice story indeed)
DRS !!!!
That article is very good.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 25 Apr 2006, 00:43

Thanks ravi. IIRC, you posted this song and meaning earlier in this forum itself elsewhere.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 25 Apr 2006, 00:46

DRS,
You are correct: I could not find that thread to reference, so I just cut and paste from some of my old notes: I am still missing some words, that for the life of me I can't remember (pre-senile dememtia, I suppose). These were missing from teh first post.
Ravi

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 25 Apr 2006, 00:48

Sankar!!!

It isnt long winded at all. That was a nice song..
Thanks for word-to-word meanings.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 25 Apr 2006, 01:10

Welcome!

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 25 Apr 2006, 05:02

DRS (or anyone)
Can you please re-post the notations for Vamsavati kriti. I realised it was in wodeyar thread long before I joined this forum, but the link has expired. Also notations for Kapali please....which I also missed

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 25 Apr 2006, 07:18

Can someone who has previously downloaded please look into Suji Ram`s request.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 25 Apr 2006, 09:19

here is the link
deleted
see the next post

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 25 Apr 2006, 09:22

I am sorry that link has died! I have reuploaded here
http://rapidshare.de/files/18872142/bek ... h.pdf.html

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 25 Apr 2006, 10:28

Danke CLM!
If you have Kapali please post that too!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 25 Apr 2006, 10:37

here you go
http://rapidshare.de/files/18874446/kAp ... h.pdf.html
(Do entertain us with your performance!)

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 25 Apr 2006, 10:52

here you go
http://rapidshare.de/files/18874446/kAp ... h.pdf.html
(Do entertain us with your performance!)

I have been practising this without notations..
I checked now and.. it is almost perfect to what I played! Perhaps an easy ragam I guess.
Will post after I fine tune this piece.
Thanks again for your help.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 25 Apr 2006, 20:54

Still awaiting the notations for the Sree part of the ragamalika.....

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 25 Apr 2006, 21:00

CML
I intend to post the full notation at the end as it is much easier on me.
Iam keeping quite so people may discuss or ask about what has already been posted. Should I proceed with 2nd khaNDa?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 25 Apr 2006, 21:22

The discussion may proceed khanda by khanda. But the music has to be digested raga by raga. It will be easy to master each segment separately than all of them together. For example here is the MIDIfied version of the Sree
http://rapidshare.de/files/18907993/Shree1Mid.mp3.html

I can correct the errors if I have the notes and post it and instrumentalists (vocalists) too can practise more intelligently when they know the underlying notes. Thanks

However the interesting discussions can keep going in the meantime independently! No need to hurry!

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 25 Apr 2006, 21:31

CML
Let us hear what others say in this regard. Guys speak up if you want notations now. Minimum 5 ayes or else the notation will be posted at the end.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 25 Apr 2006, 21:33

CML
Let us hear what others say in this regard. Guys speak up if you want notations now. Minimum 5 ayes or else the notation will be posted at the end.

yes 2

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 25 Apr 2006, 22:15

Garland maker is now wise to the tricks of the trade

We must pay his price in this 'seller's market'

Speak up guys!

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 25 Apr 2006, 22:23

DRS
You can post the notation so that it will be easier on you. However, as per CML`s suggestion, we should take up each Khanda/Raaga and discuss it clearly before we jump into the other one and in the end we can have a full pledged discussion about the whole composition. That way it gives us a better idea(of Sankethi and Suladi, both of which are new to almost all of us in the forum)

What to do others suggest???

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 26 Apr 2006, 00:35

Word to word meaning for 2nd khaNDa

bAla kANDa
rAga- dhanyAsi; (caturaSra jAti) maThya tALa

mArIca subAhuva; maTTi- vanquishing; yAgu- sacrificial ceremony;
bharicavu~n- Him Who fulfilled/carried to completion;
nArImaNiku^- To the jewel among women(ahalya);
aNTina- that which stuck;
naSiyAda- That which does not perish/cannot be removed;
aghu- sin/blame/blemish; taricavu~n- Him Who plucked/wiped/uprooted;
gaurISa- ISvara/Siva; dhanuSa- bow;
caTa khaTa paTa a^Na- With the sound "caTa khaTa paTa" signifying the breaking asunder/cracking sound of the bow(Onomatopoeic);
moricavu~n- He Who broke;
sIrAnkaje- Daughter of janaka
sIra is plough; sIrAnka is "him who has the plough as his banner/symbol/ lANchana i.e janaka. sIrAnkaje is his daughter:- sIta.
dhanyA- Her Who is blessed/happy/virtuous/auspicious;
sItaya- sIta; tA~n varicavu~n- He Who married.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 26 Apr 2006, 00:39

Please feel free to post the running meaning. Here is the ciTTeswara

ciTTeswara for khaNDa 2 in dhanyAsi
M ,- S G~ | M ,- | D P M P ||
G~ , R S- | N# S | G~ , M P ||
N , M P N ,- S* G* | R* S*- R* , | S* D , P G~ , R S ||

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 26 Apr 2006, 01:14

Would the running meaning go along the following lines...

He(Raama) is the one who killed Maaricha and Subaahu and ensured that the sacred ceremony goes smoothly He is the one who removed the blemish of ahalya and He is the one who broke the Bow(Pinakam) of Lord Shiva and married Sita, the daughter of Janka

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 26 Apr 2006, 01:21

bAla kANDa
rAga- dhanyAsi; (caturaSra jAti) maThya tALa

mArIca subAhauva | maTTi yAgu bharicavu~n ||
nArImaNikaNTina | naSiyAdaghu taricavu~n ||
gaurISa dhanuSa caTa | khaTapaTa a^Na moricavu~n ||
sIrAnkaje dhanyA | sItaya tA~n varicavu~n ||

mArIcha(nayum) subAhuva(yum) maTTam(thaTTi) yAga(ththai) bharich(avanai)!
nArImaNikku aNDina(=nErntha) nASiyAda(=nee^Ngaada)pApaththai thavir(ththavanai)!
gaurISa(nudaya) dhanuSa(i) caTa khaTapaTa (enru) moRiththavanai!
sIra(kodiyOnudaya) dhanya sItaya(i) tAnE(himself?) variththavanai!
(rest follow from the first part which is like a pallavi?)

Would like a reference for the plough flag for Janaka

(shankar will anglicize if this is correct

)

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 26 Apr 2006, 01:36

mArIcha(nayum) subAhuva(yum) maTTam(thaTTi) yAga(ththai) bharich(avanai)!
nArImaNikku aNDina(=nErntha) nASiyAda(=nee^Ngaada)pApaththai thavir(ththavanai)!
gaurISa(nudaya) dhanuSa(i) caTa khaTapaTa (enru) moRiththavanai!
sIra(kodiyOnudaya) dhanya sItaya(i) tAnE(himself?) variththavanai!
(rest follow from the first part which is like a pallavi?)

CML,
What language is it in the brackets?

DRS
I thought Sita got that name because she was discovered when Janka was ploughing and the plough got stuck in the box(that has Sita in it)

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 26 Apr 2006, 01:37

CML
Meaning is correct except for vibhakti endings(tarittavanai etc)- you have given dvitIyA but i have set it in prathamA.

Reference you asked for- you may check these entries in sanksrit dictionary(Cologne and others).

5 sItA f. ------- in epic poetry SÃƒÆ’Ã†â€™Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â±Sita1 is the wife of Ra1macandra and daughter of Janaka , king of Mithila1 , capital of Videha , who was otherwise called Si1radhvaja ; she was named Sita1 because fabled to have sprung from a furrow made by Janaka while ploughing the ground to prepare it for a sacrifice instituted by him to obtain progeny----

1 sIradhvaja m. `" plough-bannered "'N. of Janaka Ba1lar. ; of Balara1ma VP. ; of a son of Hrasva-roman ib

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 26 Apr 2006, 01:42

--nArImaNikku aNDina(=nErntha) nASiyAda(=nee^Ngaada)pApaththai thavir(ththavanai)!-----

The essence is correct nut aNTina is not the same as aNDina in sankEti. aNTu^ is stick/oTTudal/nErdal. while aNDu^, among its many meanings also means to approach(aNDudal, nADudal).

I was expecting a more colourful reply (meaning) from you

Let us spend some time on the meanings and interpretaions. Everybody chip in.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 26 Apr 2006, 01:50

Kiran, the meaning posted by you for the 2nd khNDa is also correct. The language CML has indicated within brackets is tamizh.

CML- Cologne is same as Monier-Williams

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 26 Apr 2006, 02:02

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 26 Apr 2006, 02:21

Here I quote SrImad bhAgavatam Canto 9, Chapter 13

Verse 17
kRtiratas tatas tasman |
mahArOma ca tat sutaH |
svarNarOma sutas tasya |
hrasvarOma vyajAyata ||17||

From Mahadhrti was born a son named Krtirata, from Krtirata was born Maharoma, from Maharoma came a son named Svarnaroma, and from Svarnaroma came Hrasvaroma.

Verse 18
tataH sIradhvajO jaj~nE |
yaj|nartham karShato mahIm |
sItA sIrAgratO jAtA
tasmAt sIradhvajaH smRtaH ||18||

Meaning
From Hrasvaroma came a son named Siradhvaja [also called Janaka]. When Siradhvaja was plowing a field, from the front of his plow [sira] appeared a daughter named Sitadevi, who later became the wife of Lord Ramacandra. Thus he was known as Siradhvaja.

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 26 Apr 2006, 02:35

So DRS
what does the word "Sita" mean?

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 26 Apr 2006, 02:45

So DRS
what does the word "Sita" mean?

Kiran,
In vEmapTTi chinnasatyam's sItA kalyANam ballet, the lyrics when sItA is named (nAmakaraNam) by shatAnandA are:
'sitAgrajamulO dorakina I sishuvu, sItA yani piluchU' - so, based on the contextual meaning, I assumed that the plough was sitA, and she was called sItA because of that.

And the same ballet taught me that jankA's brother was kushaDHwajA...goes nicely with siraDHwajA.
BTW: what was the name of sItA's mother?
Ravi

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 26 Apr 2006, 02:58

Balakandam:
Some comments:
The mukhAri thread jostled my memory:
ahalyA shApa mOchanam is portrayed so interestingly by different poets:
annamAchAryA:
kAmini pApamu kadigina pAdamU
Kamban:
kai vaNNam angE kandEn, kAl vaNNam ingE kandEn
Arunachala Kavi:
gautaman ashramam sErkAL
kADadilE raghurAman pAda dhUL sinda
kal uru pOi nal uruvAi ninra ahaligai...

And she is introduced to rAma as:
gautaman dEvi ivaL rAmA
gautaman Avi ivaL rAmA
andram nAdiya, indiran kUdiya dEvi ivaL rAmA....

And now,
DRS:
nArimaNikku aNTina naSiyAda aghu.....

Tres bien...

BTW, wasn't Ahalya the mother of shatAnanDa, Janka's chief priest?
Ravi

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 26 Apr 2006, 02:58

sIta means furrow or ploughed line/earth. As she was found in a furrow when ploughing the field, she was called sItA. sIra(plough) and sItA are etymologically related.

Ravi, the verse(19) after the ones I have quoted names kuSadhvaja.

kusadhvajas tasya putras |
tatO dharmadhvajO nRpaH |
dharmadhvajasya dvau putrau |
kRtadhvaja-mitadhvajau ||19|| (canto 9, chapter 13 of the bhAgavata).

Thanks for the nice telugu quote. I think it should read as sItAgramulO (not agrajamulO).