Dr. Shrikaanth K Murthy

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 21 Apr 2006, 21:11

I do not know anybody who has wovwn in both the raga and tALa mudra before! This is the first.

I think rAmaswAmi dIkShitar has also woven both rAga and tALa names in his magnum opus rAgamAlike of 108 rAgas in the aShTOttara Sata tALas.

Quick question

sULaDi according to laya history was supposed to have been invented by Jayanta (Indra's son). He taught it to Arjuna when he visited IndralOka which came handy during the ag~naatavaasa when he was in the garb of brihannaLaa. That is how it got transmitted to bhUlOka! Have you heard this story?

Never heard of it! Where did you get it from! Please tell us more.

Sahana-priyan · Post by **Sahana-priyan** » 21 Apr 2006, 21:14

DRS Sir,
My namaskarams to your scholarship. Although i haven't been able to spend that much time on rasikas. org like before(which i intend to do from now), you made my morning with ramayana suladi.

Correct me if i am wrong in saying that Haridasa was the one who was a potter by profession and infact killed in his own child when he was so devotedly praying on Lord Panduranga.

Thanks.

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 21 Apr 2006, 21:25

DRS
Is Sanketi a dialect or a language? How related is it to kannada?

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 21 Apr 2006, 21:34

To me Sanketi sounds like a connecting-link between Tamil and Kannada in evolutionary terms.
But I am curious...does Sanketi in your compositions sound different from spoken Sanketi just like Tamil, Telugu and Kannada?

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 21 Apr 2006, 21:45

DRS

While we are at it, havent Ramaswami Dikshtar composed a Suladi in 48 raagas that goes Naatakaadi Vidyala..... which is mentioned in the Second Volume of original SSP?

Is this a different Suladi from the one with 108 talas that you were talking about?

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 21 Apr 2006, 21:57

To me Sanketi sounds like a connecting-link between Tamil and Kannada in evolutionary terms.
But I am curious...does Sanketi in your compositions sound different from spoken Sanketi just like Tamil, Telugu and Kannada?

Not sure if you know of this, but here is another testimonial to DRS: he is the reference for this page on sankEti in wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanketi_language

Ravi

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 22 Apr 2006, 00:11

To me Sanketi sounds like a connecting-link between Tamil and Kannada in evolutionary terms.
But I am curious...does Sanketi in your compositions sound different from spoken Sanketi just like Tamil, Telugu and Kannada?
Not sure if you know of this, but here is another testimonial to DRS: he is the reference for this page on sankEti in wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanketi_language

Ravi

Thanks for reposting this link here Ravi. I am the author of this article in wikipedia. The article should clear kiran`s dobts. Suji Ram`s observation is ineed one facet of the sankEti language.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 22 Apr 2006, 00:14

DRS

While we are at it, havent Ramaswami Dikshtar composed a Suladi in 48 raagas that goes Naatakaadi Vidyala..... which is mentioned in the Second Volume of original SSP?

Is this a different Suladi from the one with 108 talas that you were talking about?

tsk tsk! Kiran, you need to pay more attention.

Ramaswamy Dikshitar has NOT composed any suLAdi. It is only a rAgamAlike. And the nATakAdi vidyala with 48 rAgas is only a part of the 108 rAga magnum opus. Unfortunately, the full song is not available. Lost!

Much is our loss!

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 22 Apr 2006, 00:23

To me Sanketi sounds like a connecting-link between Tamil and Kannada in evolutionary terms.
But I am curious...does Sanketi in your compositions sound different from spoken Sanketi just like Tamil, Telugu and Kannada?

To a degree yes. But not as much as is seen in tamizh. There is always some corruption/simplification when a language is spoken. This is in the pronunciation of words- like eating up vowel endings for instance.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 22 Apr 2006, 00:32

To a degree yes. But not as much as is seen in tamizh. There is always some corruption/simplification when a language is spoken. This is in the pronunciation of words- like eating up vowel endings for instance.

To me, tamizh is the language with maximum corruption from the many dialetcs and patterns of the spoken form to the written form...somehow doesn't seem to occur as much in telugu/kannada/malayalam, or sankEti according to DRS.

If we want to discuss this more, there is language thread: let us do it there.
Ravi

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 22 Apr 2006, 01:48

The diff between spoken and written versions of languages is quite common amongst languages ( degrees vary of course ) and is of great interest to Linguists. Spoken languages tend to evolve, morph, get corrupted a lot more than written languages. That is a lot of research value in that. (Even French, the stickler for such things culturally, is not immune.). And in the case like Sanketi, if the two versions are not that different, it is of greater research value to think about the reasons for that since that is quite unusual.

( I had the opportunity to talk with a University Of Chicago professor who had learnt Tamil. He first learnt it academically and then lived in Tamilnadu for a few years speaking Tamil all the time but still his Tamil was very pure and scholarly. It was very difficult for me to converse with him in Tamil. First of all, I had to refrain from laughing at some of his usages, second I can not really talk back to him at the same level of his scholarly Tamil. I sort of had to imagine that I am speaking with my high school Tamil pundit who will not let us speak in colloquial Tamil to him no matter where we bump into him ).

Sorry if I went off topic too much.

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 22 Apr 2006, 02:34

DRS and RSankar
Thanks for the article and the link. It was very informative and clear......

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 22 Apr 2006, 10:01

DRS

That information was from a writeup in Ananda Vikatan quite some time ago! I don't know about the authenticity!

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 22 Apr 2006, 23:21

.... Although i haven't been able to spend that much time on rasikas. org like before(which i intend to do from now), you made my morning with ramayana suladi.

Correct me if i am wrong in saying that Haridasa was the one who was a potter by profession and infact killed in his own child when he was so devotedly praying on Lord Panduranga.

Thanks.

Thank you sahana-priyan. Hope to see more of you from now on.

The term "haridAsa" refers to a movement and all members of the movement. This movemt was crucial in the spread of 3 things- music, devotion and the dvaita philosophy. All these were intertwined of course.

The incident you mention is from the lifestory of just one of those haridAsas-bhakta kumbAra. kumbAra literally means a potter in kannaDa. He was a great bhakta of Lord pANDuranga of paNDharapura. Once, when he was immersed in singing the glory of pANDuranga and kneading clay with his feet, his toddler son comes there. Without realising, he stamps the baby into the clay. "bhakta kumbAra" is also a beautiful kannaDa movie on this haridAsa. The hero(kumbAra) was beautifully played by none other than RAjkumar(but of course) who passed away a week ago.

purandaradAsaru, kanakadAsaru, vADirAjaru etc are all haridAsas.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 22 Apr 2006, 23:27

DRS

That information was from a writeup in Ananda Vikatan quite some time ago! I don't know about the authenticity!

I have not come across this story in any of the books or encyclopaedias. I doubt if there is any weight in it. If you can lay hands on the article, please do post it.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 22 Apr 2006, 23:53

DRS

Have a look at
http://www.tamilnation.org/culture/dance/index.htm
Though not direct it shows the relationship of Jayantha to to 'thalaikkol'. Of course 'shUlaDi' (beating (aDi) with the stick (shUl)) is the basis of tALa in bharatanatyam. If there is any connection of shULAdi with devadasis, it may be very ancient indeed.

I wonder why the pallavi is not repeated in the tALarAga maalika. Was that the original pattern which later got modified?

Pl post the ciTTa svaram (perhaps one at a time) and we can then start the discussion khANDa-wise.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 22 Apr 2006, 23:55

The movie 'gOra kuMbar' acted by nAgiah was a blockbuster in the 40's

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 23 Apr 2006, 00:34

DRS

Have a look at
http://www.tamilnation.org/culture/dance/index.htm
Though not direct it shows the relationship of Jayantha to to 'thalaikkol'. Of course 'shUlaDi' (beating (aDi) with the stick (shUl)) is the basis of tALa in bharatanatyam. If there is any connection of shULAdi with devadasis, it may be very ancient indeed......

Your line of thought is far-fetched CML(no offense meant). suLAdis have been around for at least 800 years. The earliest extant suLAdi is of narahari tIrtha who is from 12-13TH C CE. We dont need to seek refuge in classical dance(I will not say bharata nATYa) to make it ancient. There is no special connection between suLAdis and dance AFAIK.

suLAdis are in kannaDa and conributed by haridAsa. Therefore seeking origin of the word/form in tamizh or another language is futile. I have also already mentioned the kannaDa word sUDa meaning song and venkaTamakhi`s specific mention of this in CP.

sUl is actually triSUla(the weapon of Siva). I dont know if it has the meaning of stick. Also sUlaDi to suLAdi is linguistically untenable(most particularly D to d)

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 23 Apr 2006, 00:39

---
I wonder why the pallavi is not repeated in the tALarAga maalika. Was that the original pattern which later got modified?---

The suLAdis have always been sung as now, as far as is known. The P_AP_C structure waas neither univrsal nor did it hold the pride of place in the past. As I said earlier, there is technically no pallavi in suLAdis and each khaNDa is full in itself with the connection being the theme.

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 23 Apr 2006, 01:56

DRS
Now that we have started discussion, one question from me. A trivial one rather. Nonetheless, Iam going for it..

When you were describing the suladi in intro, you said something about Viloma swaram(sahityam????). However, You sang the chitta swarams and then you proceeded to next taala and raaga.
Unless I musunderstood the concept of Viloma...,is it not singing the swaram/sahithyam or the raagas in reverse order like the way we do for raagas in Dikshitar`s Chaturdasa Raagamalika?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 23 Apr 2006, 02:20

DRS

Could you give the shloka citation (number) of the CP? I only have a printed copy. (is it vailable on the net?)

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 23 Apr 2006, 02:28

tatra sAlasUDEti SabdasyArthaH pradarSyatE |
sUDa ityESha dESIyaSabdO gItavAcakaH ||

(SlOka 5, gItaprakaraNam of caturdaNDI prakASikA)

sUDa meaning song is a kannaDa word. The other languages do not have cognate words for this.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 23 Apr 2006, 02:30

DRS
Now that we have started discussion, one question from me. A trivial one rather. Nonetheless, Iam going for it..
When you were describing the suladi in intro, you said something about Viloma swaram(sahityam????). However, You sang the chitta swarams and then you proceeded to next taala and raaga.
Unless I musunderstood the concept of Viloma...,is it not singing the swaram/sahithyam or the raagas in reverse order like the way we do for raagas in Dikshitar`s Chaturdasa Raagamalika?

Your understanding of the vilOma concept is accurate. If you note at the end, after khaNDa 7 and before joining with the jote in SrIrAga, there are vilOma swaras in all the rAgas beginning with suraTi and ending with SrI.

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 23 Apr 2006, 03:35

very true. Thank you
I got it now. All the time I was expecting swaras from preceeding raagas for each charana.

and overlooked the Vilomam before you returned to Sriraagam.
Moral: I have to be attentive and concentrate more

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 23 Apr 2006, 04:05

Thanks DRS for the ref

sUDa ityESha dESIyaSabdO gItavAcakaH ||

clinches that the word is of vernacular (dEshIya) origin. unless 'sUda' means song inTelugu as well it has to be Kannada origin! Certainly not Tamil!

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 23 Apr 2006, 04:11

Thanks DRS for the ref
sUDa ityESha dESIyaSabdO gItavAcakaH ||

clinches that the word is of vernacular (dEshIya) origin. unless 'sUda' means song inTelugu as well it has to be Kannada origin! Certainly not Tamil!

Try your hardest. You will not find a cognate telugu word. In the unlikely event that you do find it, you woud be a lone duck to derive it from telugu rather than kannaDa. 8)

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 23 Apr 2006, 04:18

CML
I can tell that sUda definitely doesnt mean song in telugu. It means to demolish/kill(as in madhu soodana, just like in Sanskrit) in literary telugu...

which I guess is imported from Sanskrit just like many others...

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 23 Apr 2006, 04:29

Thanks Kiran.
Posting the ciTTeswara

ciTTeswara in SrI rAga- to be sung at the end of the 1st khaNDa
caturaSra jAti dhruvatALa

R , G R | S ,- | N# P# N# S- | R M P M ||
P ,- P N | M P- | R M P N | S* N P M ||
P N S* R* G* R* R* G* | R* R*- S* R* | S*- S* , S* N P- P , | P M R- R , G R S ||

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 23 Apr 2006, 04:35

Mohan
I checked the fonts that you posted. Very easy to use. But the mandra sthAyi cannot be represented below M right? And tArasthAYi onlu upto P, correct? Could you you extend the symbols for mandra G ?(occurs in kAmbOdhi aTa tALa varNa). the safest bet would be to extend symbols for all 3 octaves.- mandra ShaDja to atitAra ShaDja so that ciTTe tAnas for vINes(and other instruments), older gItes(venkaTamahki) can be notated faithfully.

I have another question, are you able to modify/develop software to represent other symbols as well?

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 23 Apr 2006, 05:10

DRS
I always wanted to know what makes a raaga Mangala kaaraka raagaa?
Is it the swarams/sruthis of the raaga or the gamakas that are used on these notes or both or what?. Thanks for the swaram

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 23 Apr 2006, 05:56

Lovely! Flows beautifully with the ciTTasvarm.
Now the meaning so that we learn it with the spirit. Word for wod will be good to learn some sanketi expressions too!

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 23 Apr 2006, 15:26

Yes please...

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 23 Apr 2006, 20:08

Word for word meaning for khaNDa 1 in SrIrAga

dA- a form of addrees, particularly to women;
SrIrAmacandru; varaNA- will come;
daya- compassion; vaccu^- will keep; sadA- always;
jota- company/ with one; iraNA- will be/stay;
ASrayu- refuge/support; kuDara- one wthat gives;
Alamaru- banyan tree; kaNA- again a form of address;
Aha- en exclamation of wonder/surprise/admiration;
kArmugilu^- dark/black cloud/rain-bearing cloud;
attahavu~n- Him that is like; kaNA.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 23 Apr 2006, 21:43

dA SrI rAmacandru varaNA | dayavaccu^ sadA jotayiraNA ||
ASrayu kuDarAlamaru kaNA | Aha kArmugilattahavu~n kaNA ||
So putting it all together
'hey Ladies! Sri Rama will come!
With compassion always will keep company!
Like (kaNA?) the banyan tree that gives refuge!
Aha! He the one who looks like(kaNa=maathiri?) the dark rain-bearing cloud!'
OK?

If so, please post the notations too bfore we proceed to raga discussion..

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 23 Apr 2006, 21:49

DRS/CML
Is this song written in the form of a narration?(thast what meaning looks like to me????)

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 24 Apr 2006, 00:45

CML.
Great job at summarising the meaning. As for rAga, I would rather not discuss the rAgas at length. Many will come up again later. We can discuss these then.
Let us concentrate on the sAhitya and the interpretations. I am of course happy to field any specific questions related to these rAgas from anyone.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 24 Apr 2006, 01:45

vk
Your prolonged silence is puzzling and uncharacteristic.
Also I am hoping you will post your flute rendition of kAntaswara and other kRtis.

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 24 Apr 2006, 01:52

DRS

Why should Raama be compared with a Banyan tree here?

Black cloud because-Neela Megha Syaama- right?

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 24 Apr 2006, 01:56

DRS
I always wanted to know what makes a raaga Mangala kaaraka raagaa?
Is it the swarams/sruthis of the raaga or the gamakas that are used on these notes or both or what?. Thanks for the swaram

Tradition. Behind the tradition, I am sure there is some thinking and/or historic incidents but we are sadly not privy to it. There are some oppimions of weight people about some rAgas such as suraTi and saurAShTra:- that these rAgas were originally from the region which was also home to propserity and plenty(sUrat/saurAShTra region of Gujarat) and hence their association with mAngalya/prosperity/auspiciousness. I dont know how much weight is there in this theory.

And yes, the suLAdi is in form of narration. It is in the 1stcase/prathamA vibhakti.

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 24 Apr 2006, 01:59

Cheers...

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 24 Apr 2006, 02:02

Kiran
What I said to VK about posting renditions applies to you too. You have been sliiping for too long now. Now you must post a rendition.

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 24 Apr 2006, 02:04

Surati, the name although originates from "Surat" it is a telugu word and it means a huge fan (this is what I have read in a book) used in the royal palace. As you said, may be the auspiciousness of raaga is connected with the name and stuff....
No clue...

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 24 Apr 2006, 02:16

Kiran
What I said to VK about posting renditions applies to you too. You have been sliiping for too long now. Now you must post a rendition.

Ummmmm

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 24 Apr 2006, 02:17

vk
Your prolonged silence is puzzling and uncharacteristic.
Also I am hoping you will post your flute rendition of kAntaswara and other kRtis.

Your thinking is quite understadable and just a couple of hours back I myself thought about not having posted my experience with your suLAdi. (This is the blind garland maker situation....). I listened to the suLAdi once ( and mentally queued it up for further listening sessions since it really deserves many more ), enjoyed tremendously the singing of both you and Sahana. Nice choice of ragas, not necessarily going with the traditional choices by choosing Suratti for the last one. They all fit in nicely. I am glad you added the lecture on the suLAdi because before this I did not know anything about its form and tradition. That was a great lesson, crisp and to the point, as yours are always are.

I was telling a few people around me that the composer I know not only composes in rare ragams but resurrects lost song forms with his own compositions.

I have sent the link to the in-laws of a friend of mine ( thru him ). I know they are interested in CM ( not sure how deep ). They are kannadigAs. In my short description, I mentioned that the suLAdi is in kannadA, before I knew better. I was going to send an email correcting that but then decided to hold off. I want to see if they recognize it is in sankEti

Yesterday at a tamizh sangam function, I bumped into a friend who is a big fan of CM. I am going to forward your links to him. I am sure he will eat this all up eagerly.

Regarding doing your work on the flute, I have long back decided to try kantaswara, that is still part of the plan!! I WILL get to it, it is just a matter of time.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 24 Apr 2006, 02:26

Late-a vandAlum latesta vanduTTEL

-.... Nice choice of ragas, not necessarily going with the traditional choices by choosing Suratti for the last one. They all fit in nicely. ---.

This is the mindset I addressed in my lecture. As all these are mangaLa rAgas, ending with any of them is fine.

Also, I am surprised by your comment about suraTi. Ending with suraTi is not at all uncommon. There are countless mangaLas in suraTi(very many magaLas of haridAsas).

And lastly, the suLAdi actually ends with SrI, not suraTi.

Regarding doing your work on the flute, I have long back decided to try kantaswara, that is still part of the plan!! I WILL get to it, it is just a matter of time.

Yes I remeber your words of conviction when we discussd kAntaswara. It would be nice if you try some of the others as well.

OhO kAlamE!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 24 Apr 2006, 03:24

You are right about suraTi. When I wrote that, admittedly loosely, I was thinking about the few raga malikas I could think of. But I am sure there are raga malikas with suraTi as the last raga.

OhO kAlamE!

LOL.
Indeed....No kidding... that is my current pain point...Though obsessing with it does not help matters either

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 24 Apr 2006, 05:09

Mohan
I checked the fonts that you posted. Very easy to use. But the mandra sthAyi cannot be represented below M right? And tArasthAYi onlu upto P, correct? Could you you extend the symbols for mandra G ?(occurs in kAmbOdhi aTa tALa varNa). the safest bet would be to extend symbols for all 3 octaves.- mandra ShaDja to atitAra ShaDja so that ciTTe tAnas for vINes(and other instruments), older gItes(venkaTamahki) can be notated faithfully.

I have another question, are you able to modify/develop software to represent other symbols as well?

That's right the range I included in the font was lower Ma to upper Pa. I will look into extending it so it covers all three octaves.

Yes - the font writing software I used allows you to create whatever symbols you want but it is a tedious process and you need to create each letter individually. I used the Softy Font Editor http://users.breathe.com/l-emmett/

What symbols are you looking for?

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 24 Apr 2006, 05:16

Thats great Mohan. I wanted a software to write sankEti. I have devised a script- modified version of kannaDa to serve sankEti phonology. Of course I have a hand written version. Is it possible to say scan it and use this software so as to have each symbol represented by one key or combination of keys?
There are softwares such as baraha and nuDi for writing kannaDa. Is it possible to add the few extra letters/symbols to it so as to avoid the tedium of starting de-novo?

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 24 Apr 2006, 05:25

There are softwares such as baraha and nuDi for writing kannaDa. Is it possible to add the few extra letters/symbols to it so as to avoid the tedium of starting de-novo?

Yes - in fact I modified an existing font only to create the Swaram font. You just load the baraha or nuDi font into Softy and then edit the existing characters in the font set as required.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 24 Apr 2006, 06:00

I just checked the Swaram font set and can confirm that in upper case you can type three octaves. There are no short cut keys for notes below mandra ma or above atitara Pa but you cn insert them in Microsoft Word by setting the font to Swaram the selecting Insert - Symbol.