Languages and Carnatic Music

vidya_lr · Post by **vidya_lr** » 21 Jun 2008, 02:38

Hello,
Carnatic music songs are in several languages - tamizh, telugu, kannada etc. So, when a person who does not understand the language render a song, would you have the same experience that a person who knows the language would get? For eg., the pronounciations may not be right, may be because you wouldnt know the right way of pronouncing the word in the other language or you might not understand the meaning of the song. In order to fully understand and sing right, is it not necessary to know the other language?

Vidya.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 21 Jun 2008, 02:47

IMHO, in order to sing songs of other language, one should listen to singers from that part of the country to see how they pronounce

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 21 Jun 2008, 02:51

Vidya,
You would be interested to know that something related to this is being discussed in the kalpitam and kalpanA thread.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 21 Jun 2008, 12:04

Between Tamil, Telugu and Kannada I think that if we learn
(a) a bit about declensions of nouns and verbs in these languages
(b) the alphabet, and maybe certain subtle points like the 'tc'-'c' difference in Telugu and the kuRRiyalugaram in Tamil specific to the words in the song,
(c) the line-by-line (NOT word-by-word, just line-by-line) meanings of the songs,

it should be enough. The line-line meaning will, with the knowledge of one language and an idea about the declensions in the other language tell the singer / instrumentalist all they need to know.

I think we can club Malayalam into this group, but not sure.
---
Sanskrit ... Carnatic songs in Sanskrit are usually only descriptive, and contain names assigned to the Deity. They don't have "emotional" content. Therefore just correct pronounciation might do.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 21 Jun 2008, 18:49

srikant1987 wrote:(c) the line-by-line (NOT word-by-word, just line-by-line) meanings of the songs,

it should be enough.

I beg to disagree.

This most certainly will not be enough as one will not one how the words combine and thus people will simply break at arbitrary spots. For example, baNTurIti kolu..... viyavayyarAma! Or duDuku gala nannE dOrA where not only dOrA is incorrect, just using these 4 words as the refrain throughout the song (as in the most popular version) without the next half of the line is quite incorrect (in particular dora-koDUku as a single combined word is crucial here).

I think not only word by word meaning, but how the words combine to form the final forms are necessary. Just going by gist (or not even get there) may be the reason for sangatis galore in places where perhaps Thyagaraja may not used it (although IMO one must not go too overboard here, it is possible that sangatis are sort of like poetry reading - where you present a concept step-wise).

If you have to get the right bhAva, IMO, it would help a lot when you know what each word means, as even in a sentence with weight, certain words carry most import - and you can perhaps emote them more effectively.

Arun

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 21 Jun 2008, 19:05

In this context, I would like to get some doubts clarified.
Sometimes, it is musically difficult to sing the words together and especially stop.
For eg. in the song
Nannu brOva neekintha thAmasamaa- while stopping it is musically easier to stop as
'nannubrOva nee' rather than 'nannubrOva neeku'.
Geethaarthamu in suruti- the tendency while sopping is to sing as 'geethaarthamu sang' bec.musically it seems to stop there. Otherwise one has to stop at 'geethaarthamu' or sing the whole line.
Kantajoodu(choodu?)-while singing swaram for alanaadu soumitri-
the tendency is to stop as 'alanaadu sou '

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 21 Jun 2008, 20:11

You will notice that singers who speak the language do a better job in singing the complete word or in making complete sense before pausing--unless they are insensitive to words. The singer should keep in mind that the composer did not mean it to be that way. Words come to him in a flow, not split into meaningless syllables. Occasionally in a sAhityA which is set to tune by some one else, if the one who tunes it is not sensitive to sAhityA, this might happen.

What Arun says about lines is very true. The last word of a line sometimes runs into the next, as in:
..........................gO
vinda.....................
in which case you have to sing the word without a pause.
Beginners of music and performers who are not as brilliant as MMI should not slur, indulge in padac cEdam or ignore the meaning and intent of the song. Children who learn to sing CM should be guided to pay attention to the words and their meaning. In dance, does this happen? I am certain that children are taught the meaning and the bhAvam for each line so that they can emote them in their dance along with the steps that they learn...

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 21 Jun 2008, 22:30

arunk wrote:This most certainly (line-line meaning) will not be enough as one will not one how the words combine

But if we know declensions and one of Telugu, Kannada and Tamil, we can easily figure out the individual words AND their meanings. Yes, that means learning word-by-word meanings, through DEDUCTION rather than rote. Further, getting a line translated is much quicker than looking every word into a dictionary, and figuring WHICH meaning of tha particular word will fit. Especially with more than one word, its a problem, so many permutations and combinations arise!

arasi wrote:the composer did not mean it to be that way. Words come to him in a flow, not split into meaningless syllables.

This is true only of lakshya sangItam. varNams and svarasAhityams need not follow this.

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 21 Jun 2008, 22:38

arasi wrote:Children who learn to sing CM should be guided to pay attention to the words and their meaning. In dance, does this happen? I am certain that children are taught the meaning and the bhAvam for each line so that they can emote them in their dance along with the steps that they learn...

Very true indeed Arasi. If children who dance know the meaning of the song the Bhava would be more easily forthcoming. The same should hold good for children who learn music (both vocal and instrumental)

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 22 Jun 2008, 01:23

Thank you, Cienu.

Srikant1987,
Yes and no. Pallavi lines come under the same category too--with different names of a god or with an addition of a verb along with them.True, we pay more attention to the elaboration of the line musically that even a trite line does not offend. Yet, a bit of feeling invested in those words makes the line sparkle. The line that comes to mind at the moment is: nAdanai dinam ninai manamE! brundAvana sAranga...In a pallavi, AlApanA may sound beautiful but it all comes to life with the pallavi line. 'ninai manamE' becomes the meditative mantrA and if sung with feeling, such a line can elevate the singing and add to our listening pleasure. Music is vital, like the skeletal system. sAhityA fleshes it out. The more charged the words, the better the music. I am not saying sAhityA it superior to or is more important than rAgA or svarAs--just that a good composition without doubt adds to the beauty of a piece...

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 22 Jun 2008, 05:05

Pallavi lines come under the same category too--with different names of a god or with an addition of a verb along with them.
But in Sanskrit songs, pallavi verb tend to always be the very factual 'vaNangugiREn' (namaste, bhajeham, etc.) and not 'vaNangu!'. 'bhajare mAnasa' is an exception I recollect. I guess there are some more "bhajare"s.

Telugu and Tamil songs have very varied pallavis. At least Tamil songs from OVK and Arunaachala Kavi.

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 22 Jun 2008, 06:36

If my understanding is right, 'bhaja re manasa' means, 'oh mind ,worship(theLord). It is an'order or command to the mind, so to say.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 22 Jun 2008, 07:50

Punarvasu,
Command, entreaty and more! It is not as if the words don't carry any impact. How we perceive them and how much attention we give them is what makes the difference. Like several other issues on the forum, when it comes to sAhityam, those of us who are particular about it are considered by some as extremists! There was once a thread called 'The Tyranny of SahityA'!

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 22 Jun 2008, 08:06

Arasi,
Did I give an impression that words or sahitya carry no importance?
I have always been very particular about this-as a listener and as a singer(whatever and whenever I sing).
I wrote about Bhaja re -as a reply to what Srikant1987 wrote.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 22 Jun 2008, 08:21

Of course not, Punarvasu! Your example was a good one and I merely meant that it would mean more too, to emphasize that just because we come across those words often in sanskrit compositions it doesn't follow that they are deficient in feeling. I would not have thought of you as someone who is indifferent to lyrics. You are a 'versifier' yourself

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 22 Jun 2008, 08:34

Arasi,
thanks.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 22 Jun 2008, 10:24

Music is not perceived only through ears - the whole body responds to it. That is the finding of 'Music Therapists' - (the PDF version on the subject may be downloaded from http://www.musictherapyworld.de/modules ... 1_2006.pdf )
Our Yogis found that out millenniums ago - 'nAda brahmam'

The true artists - on his part - does not sing only with his mouth - his whole body sings - nay he becomes music - that is nAdOpasana.

Uttering 'fire' does not make 'fire'. The question is can we make 'fire'? 'varshaya varshaya varshaya'

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 22 Jun 2008, 20:16

Govindan,
While we are struggling to bring home the basic stuff, you mention the very unreachable, all the same desirable qualities and qualifications in a practitioner of music!
If the children are guided to take the right route--to first of all 'understand' the words that they sing, then we can hope that at least a few of them would end up meaning what they sing and eventually, by their realization, become ideal musicians too!
I am not giving up hope. Supposing my faith were that strong, and I also believed in the sanctity of bathing in GangA, I would not stand on the banks of the holy river pointing my finger at it saying how polluted it is and refuse to jump in. I have faith in CM and a great desire that it keeps going, reaching better heights--your wish too, for sure..

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 22 Jun 2008, 22:37

Arasi,
Such positive outpourings!
Let us aim for the sky; we may probably reach the tree top.