shadvidhamargini and navanItam (and vasantavarali)

[arunk]

I am in mass confusionregarding shaDvidhamArgini and navanItam.

shaDvidhamArgini:
S R1 G2 M2 P D2 N2 S | S N2 D2 P M2 G2 R1 S
navanItam:
S R1 G1 M2 P D2 N2 S | S N2 D2 P M2 G1 R1 S
(difference between the above 2 is ga)
vasantavarALi:
(1) S R2 M1 P D1 S | S N2 D1 P G2 R2 S
(2) S R2 M1 P D3 N3 | N3 D3 P G2 R2 S N3
(3) S R2 M1 P D3 N3 | N3 D3 P M G1 R S N

1. I have heard MDR's pAhi rAma dhUta - it is labelled vasantavarALi but from the various aro/avaro of that raga, there is no way MDR's version is in that raga. The aro/avaro for that raga is given suddhamadhyama etc. for now MDR's version is closest actually to navanItam with the ga clearly having G1 tinge (and thus with S R1 G1 M2 - having a varaLi like touch - perhaps hinting at why vasantavarALi?)
2. Now I have heard Smt. Vedavalli's rendition of g~nyAnamOsagarAdA in a concert on krithis that have undergone change. She sings it n shaDvidhamArgini - and the ga sounds closer to G1 than G2 - basically I cannot sense subhapantuvarALi like tinge - more of a varALi tinge. So close to like what navanItam would sound like.
3. On MIO there is TNS rendition of the kOTISwara Iyer's composition antaranga bhakthi in ShaDvidhamArgini - and guess what? varali tinge and no SubhapantuvarALi tinge. Again close to what navanItam would sound like

Now given all this and particular #2 (the concert's theme, the viDushi's reputation w.r.t authenticity), I am thinking that the ga of ShaDvidhamArgini is more of a G1 tinge? (like asAveri?). Of course that treads it very much into navanItam's territory.

But
4. If you listen to Hyd Bros rendition of pAhi rAmadhUta at MIO - it does seem to be in shaDvidhamArgini WITH G2 - a definite SubhapantuvarALi like tinge!!
5. There is a youtube rendition by a veena artist which also has the same melodic feel as #4. The ga is clearly G2.

And now to top things of
I found a rendition of tyAgarAja's lEmi delpa which is supposed to be in navanItam on http://www.surasa.net/music/tyagaraja-a ... index3.php (link not working for me now). And guess what? It sounds like #4 above i.e. like shaDvidhamargini scale above!

So
something which sounds like navanItam scale above is called shaDvidhamArgini (and sometimes vasantavarALi), and what sounds like shaDvidhamArgini is called navanItam :/:/

Can some pl. unravel this mystery?

Thanks
Arun

[ramakriya]

The confusion with pAhi rAma dUta is primarily because different manuscripts give the name for the kriti as vasanta varALi and shaDvidha mArgiNi.

( I am not sure if there are any other composition in vasanta varALI which is described as a janya of 22nd mELa ? or 20th mELa? - but I suspect there might be a lakshaNA GeetE from sangraha cUDAmaNi)

I have only listened to the Hyd Brothers version of this song, which is is shaDvidhamArgiNi, sung in madhyama shruti ; Where can I listen to MDR version of this composition?

I wonder if the g1 feel (or varALI feel) you mention is because of the kampita gAndhAra - even though nominally placed at g2 level. Some of the rAgas from 2nd chakra and 8th chakra have kampita gANdhara while some have plain gAndhAra. That could be playing a part.

I remember listening to a track of lEmi delpa of S Rajam, but don't remember the details ..; May be I should dig down in my music folder.

-Ramakriya

[knrh05]

Ramakriya,
MDR's version
http://sangeethamshare.org/sunil/thyaga ... a--MDR.mp3

[arunk]

ramakriya -

Thanks. This ga (to me) has not much G2 feel. Although I always found this odd. For example, there was a TNS concert long ago where I think he did kOTISwara Iyer piece - and some rasikas opined that it sounded more like navanItam - again pl. check MIO recording of TNS, after you listen to MDR version above. IMO they would not sound like Hyd Bros which clearly as subhapantuvarali shades in the pUrvAnga. But still I was not as surprised by this discrepancy as when I heard Smt. Vedavalli's rendition in a thematic concert of ragas that changed names - and she announces shaDvidhamArgini and IMO sings a raga that is very close or same to TNS/MDR.

This atleast added more fodder to (my) theory that there are 2 ways of rendering shaDvidhamArgini - although one treads on the more obscure navanItam.

Of couse that was till I heard lEmi delpa on that site (too bad it is still down - it worked yesterday afternoon!) - which was like a bizarro world - a navanItam krithi having subhapantuvarALi shades! That confused me completely.

Arun

[arunk]

sangeetham.share has a few renditions of lEmi delpa. S. Rajam's although marked navanItam, is clearly pAvani (he says so at the beginning and even sings aro/avaro). pAvani differs from navanIt am in nishadam (N3 here vs. N2 in navanItam, both with G1)

There are also swarnAngi/suvarnAni versions (Sirgazhi) which is S R1 G2 M2 P D2 N3 S | S N3 D2 P M2 G2 R1 S i.e. differs from navanItam in both ga and ni (and shaDvidhamArgini w.r.t ni)

It is possible the version I heard on that other site is in swarnAngi (it definitely had G2 like Sirgazhi's - I didnt listen to it completely. Stopped as soon as I heard g2 ).

Hmmm. I still need to hear a lEmi delpa (or another song) in navanItam and compare it against the shaDvidhamArgini that has a G1 like ga.

Arun

[arunk]

Got one: http://sangeethamshare.org/tvg/UPLOADS- ... .38-MB.mp3

The Ga here does indeed seem different - more flat and more prominent (and hence prominently vivAdi) than the once with some shaDvidhamArgini flavors (say listen to MDR's version above) Hence also less varALi like.

Thoughts?

Arun

[tmohan]

The mELa rAgamAlika fairly gives the difference betwen these two. The g2 of ShadvidamArgini is a bit lower compared to that in dhEnuka , definitely more than a vivadi note.

The g1 in varALi is quite high for a vivAdi note, also has a noticeable kampita gamaka. The concept of vivADi note , in a way fails here. A teacher can't explain this satifactorily to a student. I feel this is the reason why there is a conception that vaRALi should not be taught by the teacher..

Mohan

[raviraj]

The Ga here does indeed seem different - more flat and more prominent (and hence prominently vivAdi) than the once with some shaDvidhamArgini flavors (say listen to MDR's version above) Hence also less varALi like.

Thoughts?

Arunk,

1. IMO, I have always found that MDR or SSI et al 's intonation of vivadhi svaras isnt adequate enought or possibly muted - refer SSI's rendition of Bhaktavatsalam in Vamshavathi. I would recommend Tanjavur S Kalyanaraman very strongly for his detailed treatment in this regard. I have always felt that he always employed jaarus around the vivadhi notes as adopted by MD, brightly bringing out the beauty of vivadhi as well. IMO employing gamaka variety other than jaarus, kills the vivadhi flavour. SKR's Naganandhini or Kanthamani renditions are examples.

Keeping the note straight and employing jaarus only as in Hindustani music is SKR's forte especially while handling vivadhi notes.Coolji can help by u/l some beautiful renditionsof SKR

2. The SSP Audio project work by TMK/RKS has a veena delineation by RS Jayalakshmi which is also illuminative of the vivadhi notes. IIRC, 2 chakras have been covered so far.

Raj

[ramakriya]

2. The SSP Audio project work by TMK/RKS has a veena delineation by RS Jayalakshmi which is also illuminative of the vivadhi notes. IIRC, 2 chakras have been covered so far.

Raj

Somehow, I felt that the vivAdi notes are much flatter in this rendition of TMK/RKS - ( May be this is how it is notated in SSP) compared to other renditions of kritis in chakra 1.

p.s: This is a purely personal opinion

-Ramakriya

[YetAnotherMusicLover]

Recently came across this version by MBMK : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njXgGhnB11s
What do you all think about this?

[Christian Kenit Ram]

Quite similar issue as I have been looking for some renditions of Shadvidhamargini which would sound like Subhapantuvarali ( purvang ) + Kharaharapriya ( uttrang ) , and not in madhyama shruti (like pAhi-rAma-dUta-Hyderabad-Brothers) . Don´t know if this version even exists ...

While searching , I came across "Antharanga Bhakthi -... - Koteeswarayyar Krithi "

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzLD6HV5we4

One user from the comment section expresses this dilema about the gandhar treatment which makes it sound more like G1 probably ...

"it is a melakartha raga. it has sudha rishabha , SADHARANA GANDHARA, prathi madhyama, panchama, chathusruthi dhaivatha, kaishika nishada. no point on rattling gandhara like 'varali' . oscillation shall be for 'sadharana gandhara' , not for sudha gandhara which is not a part of this raga . "

Can not comment on whether the comment is appropriate ot not but it helps me to understand why I am not hearing a Shubhapantuvarali Ga .

Post edit :
The sound I have been looking for --

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PKFZRmpz78 Haimavatim – Janaka Raga Kriti Manjari – Dr. M Balamuralikrishna

A clear G2 in this clip .

[rrkaushik]

Firstly, I am soooo glad this is bothering others as well! This raga(s) has been bothering me for decades now and so glad that arunk (Arunkumar Sreedharan by any chance from the old rmic days?) is confused too! Good to have company.

Here is a snippet describing the assessment of my confusion at least. Maybe it may unlock some keys in some knowledgeable rasikas?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fIhSy- ... sp=sharing

I haven't been able to resolve this despite some enquiries with knowledgeable musicians.
(put it down to just one more of those gaps between theory and practice)

My resolution as a practical matter when singing these ragas is
1. Treat Pahi Rama Duta as a derivative of Navanitam like MDR. It sounds quite a coherent raga in terms of aesthetics. If I'm wrong, I'd rather be wrong in company with MDR than right with other musicians anyway!
2. Delete Antaranga Bhakti from my repertoire! Have enough ragas to last for the next 100 or so lifetimes anyway, so won't miss one.

Not really familiar with lemi delpa so don't want to confuse myself even more!

[shankarank]

arunk is a different person than Arunkumar Sridharan - latter used to post in Sangeetham and not seen him here. You can see him post in various youtube channels. arunk used to be in Chicago. Arunkumar used to be in Phili.

Now antaranga bhakti, when you sang the sAhitya enai(yA...) sounds like bhA.. of bhAgayanayya , but you paused and split the word and did something else after that.

May be the reason why varaLi was made to go Sg1r1g1

Now if Vasanta vaRALI has pD2S , I am going to speculate that, D2 causes it to move away from g2 to g1(R2). This sounds odd with inter-tetra-chordal relation : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWhvo5GbfW0

vAdi / samvAdi has had an impact on Carnatic music (not just Hindustani as claimed) not withstanding all the cataloguing, and attempting to establish Vidvat by going against the grain!

Do we really understand what a rAgA is?

Gamakam enRu onRai kaiyil koDuttaal edai vENdumaanalum seyvada?

Gamakam is not fundamental at all. vAdi / samvAdi is more fundamental. Gamaka rests on that foundation.

Hence there is no separate southern music.

Now I am going to argue back, that bEgaDa is from SankarAbharaNam because G3 spells an N3 sound! This is against some suggestions based on the gamaka DNA that it should go to HarikAmbOdhi!