Books with Notation, word by word meanings of trinity keerth

s_hari · Post by **s_hari** » 22 Apr 2008, 06:47

Dear All,

I am not sure whether this has been discussed before or not.. Can some one tell me what books are good for lyrics (in tamil & sanskrit), notation and word by word meaning for St. Thyagaraja, Muthuswamy dikshitar & Shyama sastri?

There may be many books, please list them down in the order of usefulness in this context.. Appreciate your help.. Planning to be in chennai this weekend, and would like to buy the book(s).

Also, would appreciate where one can buy this...in chennai/bangalore

-hari

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 22 Apr 2008, 07:55

If you go to the Karnatik Music Book Centre in Royapettah (Chennai) the staff there will recommend some titles. See http://www.carnaticbooks.com/

TK Govinda Rao has published books of Trinty compositons & Swati Tirunal with Devanagari and English script and notation. if you don't need the notation, then there are other alternatives.

kmrasika · Post by **kmrasika** » 22 Apr 2008, 08:11

mohan wrote:If you go to the Karnatik Music Book Centre in Royapettah (Chennai) the staff there will recommend some titles. See http://www.carnaticbooks.com/

TK Govinda Rao has published books of Trinty compositons & Swati Tirunal with Devanagari and English script and notation. if you don't need the notation, then there are other alternatives.

These are wonderful books; the notation can be followed provided you have basic knowledge of music. The varNasAgaram book (about 500 varNams) by him is also useful. Lookup: http://www.ganamandir.org/publi.htm

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 22 Apr 2008, 08:37

I have tried my hand at using the notations from books. It is such a discouraging thing. It does not sound like the song at all. When I tried and succeeded to get the melody right by myself after a lot of struggle, I compared what I am playing with what is notated. It was quite a revelation. There is so much that is not notated. Even if by some miracle, I get the first sangathi right, the subsequent sangathis are real bad news. It is not just with krithis but with varnams as well. Without a knowledge of Bhairavi, try playing the Ata thala varnam from the books. It is quite hilarious in how bad it sounds. What you play has very little resemblance to what is notated.

It may just be the gamakam, but in addition it seems to be due to how the melody flows with the words. Sarmaji, in his new release of his AMS easy methods CD, available for free download here ( http://sangeethamshare.org/chandra/AMS- ... thods-2007 ) has exhaustive notations of gamakams. He had notated many varnams using his notational scheme. I need to get familiar with his notations and try his scheme.

I guess my problem is integrating the word sounded melody with the swaras provided in the books. Is one book better than the other in their presentation to help out with that.

I do not intend to say the notations in books are useless but without some extra help, I am at a loss to distinguish between bad notations and my lack of knowledge in 'implementing' the swaras.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 22 Apr 2008, 08:44

I agree - learning directly from notation is very hard. Maybe for a varnam you can do it but for most krithis it is very hard. That said, having notation (of your teacher) as you are learning a song, makes the learning process much easier.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 22 Apr 2008, 08:47

Mohan: Agreed. Definitely that helps.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 22 Apr 2008, 09:27

Very true vasanthakokilam. It is really tough to play with notations. play with notations andyou feel like u are playing a different song. Of course as mohan has said it is better to sought your gurus help and never be in a hurry to learn many songs with notations.

But as you gain knowledge and become an expertise you can just follow the audio and that will be more helpful.

Good luck

kmrasika · Post by **kmrasika** » 22 Apr 2008, 10:27

vasanthakokilam wrote:I have tried my hand at using the notations from books. It is such a discouraging thing. It does not sound like the song at all. When I tried and succeeded to get the melody right by myself after a lot of struggle, I compared what I am playing with what is notated. It was quite a revelation. There is so much that is not notated. Even if by some miracle, I get the first sangathi right, the subsequent sangathis are real bad news. It is not just with krithis but with varnams as well. Without a knowledge of Bhairavi, try playing the Ata thala varnam from the books. It is quite hilarious in how bad it sounds. What you play has very little resemblance to what is notated.

Interestingly, this notion is echoed by maisUr vAsudEvAccArya in his second publication of vAsudEva kIrtana manjari, whereby he says:

The very nature of our Karnataka Music is such that it defies a perfectly accurate transcription in notation.

Thereby, it is better to learn from an established guru as it would serve invaluably to provide a guide and serve as a solid foundation upon which one can build his/her music talents and capabilities.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 22 Apr 2008, 11:51

I can echo everything that is said here.
If these books come with audio exactly as notated then one can follow. But that would be a humongous task...
When I revived my interest in CM a few years ago, I bought a few cassettes of Smt Bhagyalakshmi with book containing notations for some kritis and those were helpful as she followed them as given.

But now I have given up notations. I select a good rendition of a kriti and learn it just by hearing. I can achieve fairly well though a in -house teacher would be a boon.

Long back my teacher taught me without any notes. I just had to repeat after she played every line.

I did buy the TKG books during my recent visit. Yet to given it a thorough look.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 22 Apr 2008, 12:25

There is also a book by Mumbai S. Balachandar called Apoorva Krithi Manjari that has notations for some rare trinity compositions. Accompanying this book are two CDs with all the songs rendered by Dr Vijayalakshmy Subramaniam.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 22 Apr 2008, 19:31

The only place where the notations are given and faithfully followed is @
http://www.ecse.rpi.edu/Homepages/shivk ... index.html
He also gives almost word for word meaning. Also all his lessons are available on CD where he patiently explains the nuances as well as Gamakas.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 22 Apr 2008, 19:40

I think s_hari was looking for books with word-by-word meaning and I have a feeling that is important part of the request. TKG's books have only gist meaning. For tyAgarAja krithis, there is a 3 volume book by Srinivasa Iyengar. Unfortunately it is not a complete one (does not have that many krithis).

Learning a new song from notation is not going to work because of the various shades gamakas take. Akellaji has seemed to have captured perhaps the widest possibilities (besides SSP of course). I think notations work mainly as a reference after you have learned the krithi. But I think once you are able to correlate more of what you have learnt from a guru to how it is represented in notations, I think you can then take a new song and map it fairly well. Many experts do it. But one should note that CM always has personal interpretative element to it. So two experts may not match 100% to the tee. May vary in subtleties.

Arun

s_hari · Post by **s_hari** » 22 Apr 2008, 21:31

Hi All, thanks for the responses and suggestions.

Meaning - yes, i need word by word meaning... since i don't have good command over telugu and sanskrit... I do have an working knowledge, so would like to dive deep.

On notation - my intention is not to learn or sing.. but use that and follow the renditions and understand how they are notated in book. So that, i can increase by swara jyanam.

-hari

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 22 Apr 2008, 21:39

hari - you are rarely going to find renditions of artist to match notation to a tee.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 22 Apr 2008, 21:45

hari - I must add, that our vgv's word-by-word explanation is easily the best I have seen. I think that should be primary reference.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 23 Apr 2008, 00:24

I echo what Arun says about VGV's work. Always a reliable and quality source of word -by-word meaning and full meaning

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 23 Apr 2008, 03:40

I also second it. I also hope somebody will do a similar service for the daasar padas too! Shankar our resident Tamil translator is doing a marvelous job of requests coming in with able assistance from Arasi.

Rigapada (Sarmaji) has offered to help with Telugu lyrics word for word long time ago and shishya has also been helping most of the time.

These resources can be used freely by Rasikas and we should be very grateful for their dedicated services.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 23 Apr 2008, 03:42

vgv- maybe an e-book?

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 23 Apr 2008, 09:18

arun, cml, vk,
Thanks for your kind words. The credit goes to the sadguru.

prEraNa bhi tum
rAstE ki sAthi bhi tum
manzil bhi tum
sabne mujhko dekha, na kisIne tumkO
tum agar nahIn to main kuch bhi nahin

The kritis are undergoing final round of revision. It is likely to take between 6 months to one year.
For those who are in a hurry, I can right now supply the MS Word file (zipped 2mb approx).

veenajj · Post by **veenajj** » 23 Apr 2008, 09:37

Dear Sri VGV,

Could we have your email ID? Kindly respond to [email protected].

Regards,
Jeyaraaj & Jaysri

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 23 Apr 2008, 09:51

vgvindan wrote:arun, cml, vk,
Thanks for your kind words. The credit goes to the sadguru.

prEraNa bhi tum
rAstE ki sAthi bhi tum
manzil bhi tum
sabne mujhko dekha, na kisIne tumkO
tum agar nahIn to main kuch bhi nahin

The kritis are undergoing final round of revision. It is likely to take between 6 months to one year.
For those who are in a hurry, I can right now supply the MS Word file (zipped 2mb approx).

This is wonderful news Sri Govindan!

-Ramakriya

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 23 Apr 2008, 10:24

The zip file of Thyagaraja Kritis (MS Word) may be downloaded from here.
http://rapidshare.com/files/109701632/T ... Kritis.zip

This has two level indexing. You may use 'Document Map' option to view the index and select the kritis.
veenajj - You may check your mailbox.

veenajj · Post by **veenajj** » 23 Apr 2008, 12:13

Govindanji, received your mail from the rapidshare link. Thank you very much for the same, but your email ID is not mentioned there, which we would need to communicate with you for a specific purpose. Thanks.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 23 Apr 2008, 16:28

veenajj,
If you click on my name, you will get my e-mail id.

mathe-kamas · Post by **mathe-kamas** » 23 Apr 2008, 19:03

I am lurker on this forum. Reading the above posts got me thinking. Would it be impossible to create a software that takes good music input and translates it to accurate notation? I am one who usually learns by listening much more than via books and notation. However, the issue I see there is that since I may hear the song rendered differently by different people, my sangatis usually turn out to be a hodge-podge of everything I have heard and since I do not write down the notations mostly, I am left with no constant reference.
It would be nice if standard books had CDs with renderings of songs in them, just as is, with no neraval or swarams.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 23 Apr 2008, 19:14

VGV
The MS Word file is just fantastic! Just one click takes one to the sahityam which can be watched while listening to the audio and again browse the meaning flowing with the words. It is sheer delight! If we can integrate Arun's Notation engine (since TVG has notated most of these kritis) it will be a CM learner's paradise.

Our grateful thanks to you and prostrations to the sadguru who is the inspiration behind!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 23 Apr 2008, 20:14

mathe-kamas wrote:Reading the above posts got me thinking. Would it be impossible to create a software that takes good music input and translates it to accurate notation?

Yes - near impossible. Pitch detection is itself a very challenging concept - particularly when you have other instruments in the mix. But getting that into swara notation with gamaka indicators is as big if not a bigger challenge.

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 23 Apr 2008, 20:21

vgv - Great work! I am looking forward to the final version.

Arun

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 13 May 2008, 08:33

vgv- maybe an e-book?

arun,
Can you suggest a suitable software for e-book pse?

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 13 May 2008, 12:01

vgv - I think the best would be a PDF file - which can retain the content hyperlinks.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 13 May 2008, 12:20

mohan,
The problem with pdf is that of file size. Particularly when it is languages other than English, the file size becomes very large. A Unicode text file of 3k would be around 150k in PDF.
I agree that it can retain hyperlinks.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 13 May 2008, 14:46

A new book of Thyagaraja krithis in English and Telugu script with meanings has been published.

The Complete Kritis of Sri Thyagaraja
Mr.Maddali Venkata Subbaya
ISBN: 978-81-314-2093-5 / 652 Pages/ Rs.625 / April 2008
Overview:
The inspiration to add one more book of Sri Thyagarajaâ€™s compositions arose in the mind of the compiler, when he attended Thyagaraja Aradhana festival some time back. The inspired singing of the great vidwans and the enthusiastic response of the truly international audience sparked the idea in the compilerâ€™s mind, that the saint-composerâ€™s goal and the heart-felt enjoyment and enlightenment of the audience would be even better served if the text was available in English script and the original Telugu, with the full meaning in English. When he mooted the idea with late Dr. G. Venkatadri and his uncle Dr. R. Venkataraman, they welcomed and backed it. In brief, the idea is: to present in the composerâ€™s original medium all the songs of Thyagaraja available to date, from the labors of previous compilers like Dr. Manchala Jagannatha Rao (published by TTD) and Sri T.S. Parthasarathy, with an occasional reference to the monumental work of Sri Govinda Rao, when necessary. This book serves the multiple objectives, such as: To provide for the lovers of Karnatic music, -- and particularly Thyagarajsâ€™sâ€”who do not know Telugu, a version in English script notation. The saint-composer conceived of â€˜Svara, raga sudharasayuta BHAKTIâ€™ as heavenly. Indeed, in the next line of the song he proclaimed that those who stop with enjoying the great music alone are like herons and frogs sitting on a red lotus, missing the honey within. The heart melted by the music, is meant to receive the Bhava, the Bhakti. The vast circle of ardent lovers of Thyagayyaâ€™s music in India and abroad needed to be furnished with accurate and complete meaning of every line of his compositions. Not a single line has been left unclear in this book. It is appropriately being inaugurated at the 2008 annual celebration of the Thyagaraja Aradhana Samiti at Cleveland USA.
Contents:
Â· Foreward
Â· A Short History of Sri Thyagaraja
Â· Kritis of Sri Thyagaraja
Â· Bibliography and References

Copies can be purchased from
Channel Sales Division, The Icfai University Press
# 126, Malaxmi, Srinagar Colony, Hyderabad â€“ 500073, India
Ph: 23423101 â€“ 105, Fax: 040 - 23423111
Email: [email protected] Website: www.books.iupindia.org

krishnanrasika · Post by **krishnanrasika** » 13 May 2008, 17:22

Govindanji,

The compilation is excellent - a very good piece of work. Many thanks.

Pranams
Krishnan

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 13 May 2008, 18:16

vgvindan wrote:The problem with pdf is that of file size. Particularly when it is languages other than English, the file size becomes very large. A Unicode text file of 3k would be around 150k in PDF.
I agree that it can retain hyperlinks.

When I converted the 10MB Word file to PDF, the size was reduced to 7.6MB. I am not sure if any other formats will make it smaller than this.

It sure is a monumental work, which we are all grateful for! How long did it take to compile?

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 13 May 2008, 18:28

mohan,
The file size increases much for Language (Indian) versions because of the fonts.
I am in 4th year of compilation.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 15 May 2008, 03:05

vgvindan wrote:
vgv- maybe an e-book?
arun,
Can you suggest a suitable software for e-book pse?

vgv - let me research and find the info on this

Arun