Various speeds of rendering a krithi - the basics

sramaswamy · Post by **sramaswamy** » 14 Sep 2007, 22:26

He started with ninnu kOri varnam and rendered in 5 speeds with additional kalpanaswaras.

5 speeds --> is that a typo????

sramaswamy · Post by **sramaswamy** » 14 Sep 2007, 23:01

This brings me to a question. What is 1 st speed in CM. Do we have a timimg for each beat?

There is no fxed timing. You can start as slow as you want. But then for every higher speed, you have to include double the number of swarams. For the Ninni Kori it will be as follows

1st speed -- > g
2nd speed ---> g .
3rd speed ---> g . g .
4th speed ---> g . g . r . . .
5th speed ---> g . g . r . . . s s r r g g r r

I know that the violin duo Nandini and Lalitha can go upto four speeds in their violins. But I do not know of vocalists going beyond three speeds - unless you sing the first speed slower than MDR and the fifth speed faster than Semmangudi or GNB.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 14 Sep 2007, 23:15

Regarding speeds: This is my interpretation.

I think which is 1st speed itself may be depending on gItam vs varnam/krithi

For gItam/alankaram,
( for catusra gati )
1st speed => each swara/pause spans an akshara
2nd speed => 2 per akshara
3rd speed => 4 per akshara.

I would think for tisra gati it would be 1st speed => same as above, 2nd speed => 3 per akshara, 3rd speed => 6 per akshra.

For varnams/krithis, I think the 1st speed probably never figures(?), and so "normal" speed (hence perhaps 1st) would be 2 swaras per akshara, and 2nd speed (mEl kAlam) would be 4 per akshara - again for catusra gati.

The tempo is sort orthogonal to this - i.e. length of each swara/pause is not determined by this.

Atleast this is how I interpret it atleast for non-cApu talas. I think cApus are a bit different

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 14 Sep 2007, 23:17

But for varnams if someone render's 5 speeds, not sure if 1st speed there is like gItam (i.e. each swara per beat). Also perhaps 2 of the speeds are tiSra normal and tiSra mEl kAlam?

shishya · Post by **shishya** » 14 Sep 2007, 23:17

I have heard instrumentalists play in 4 speeds. Although I practice it (mainly alankaras and akaras to keep the voice in shape), I have never presented it in a concert simply because the aesthetic beauty of the words is lost when one sings so fast. The words become hardly decipherable.
Manda Sudharani specializes in shatkala pallavis. When singing pallavis, the general pallavi is sung in a two kali chowkam and instrad of trikalam, she does shatkalam, expanding the slower and higher tempos beyond what we hear in trikalam. This practice is okay for pallavis since they have only one sentence and not several sentences like a kriti or a varnam.
For varnas and alankaras etc., the premise to start with a very slow first speed and then sing consecutively double speeds. Singing very slowly helps practice greater breath control and makes the artist become "comfortable" with lesured rendering, which comes in handy while singing vilamba kala kritis and when building raga alapana.

appu · Post by **appu** » 15 Sep 2007, 01:15

L Subramaniam used to play varnams quite often in 5 speeds.

Sowkya Kalam, (Slowest speed)
Thisram
Regular Kalam (Not knowing a Tamil word)
Mel Kalam Thisram
Mel Kalam Chatusram

You can choose the number of pulses per beat. If you decide Sowkyam at 2 pulses per beat, Thisram will be 3 pulses, Regular kalam will be 4 pulses, Mel kalam thisram will be 6 pulses and Mel kalam chatusram will be 8 pulses. I guess instrumentalist with practise can deliver it to precise perfection.

Suji Ram, did TKG sing the final speed in Sahityam or all swarams.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 15 Sep 2007, 03:11

Thank you all for your explanations on speed.
Now specific questions:

Arun,
are you using the word "akshara" for beat ? like one clap or wave? (akshara is a letter I thought)

So then, the beat interval remains the same except that you are increasing the # of swaras per akshara or beat.

Appu,
your explanation of pulse for different speed is closer to what my question was. In practice can people vary this duration to suit them? meaning you can take your time to move your palms for a beat or wave?

sramaswamy,
Thank you very much for posting the garudadhwani piece and also your explanation.

And Yes L subramanian plays even a dozen or more speeds.

Shishya,
Yes the aesthetics is lost. But somehow the way TKG sang with all the actions was a beauty in itself.
And he did sing the sahitya in 5 speeds

appu · Post by **appu** » 15 Sep 2007, 06:57

Suji Ram wrote:Thank you all for your explanations on speed.
Now specific questions:

Appu,
your explanation of pulse for different speed is closer to what my question was. In practice can people vary this duration to suit them? meaning you can take your time to move your palms for a beat or wave?

Suji Ram,

Depending on the dexterity of the artist, be it a vocalist or instrumentalist, one can select the opening speed. Once that is set there is no change for the remailning 5 speeds.

I have heard Dr L open Kalyani varnam at
Sowkya Kalam 4 pulses to the beat
Sowkya Thisram at 6 pulses
Regular Chatusram at 8 pulses
Mel kalam Thisram at 12 pulses
Mel Kalam Chatusram at 16 pulses.

Of course all of this becomes an exercise in technique. What I like to observe is how well was the varnam rendered aesthetically speaking. From your review it looks like TKG did a excellent job.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 15 Sep 2007, 08:11

appu wrote:Depending on the dexterity of the artist, be it a vocalist or instrumentalist, one can select the opening speed. Once that is set there is no change for the remailning 5 speeds.

Understood-Thanks

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 15 Sep 2007, 08:39

Suji Ram wrote:are you using the word "akshara" for beat ? like one clap or wave? (akshara is a letter I thought)

Yes one clap/wave. Perhaps the more approp word may be kriya. I think the term akshara is used for this also - like 8 aksharas in Adi tala. However, I am not clear if there are 16 aksharas in Adi 2-kalai or just 16 kriyas representing (still) 8 aksharas.

Arun

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 15 Sep 2007, 10:42

arunk wrote:
Suji Ram wrote:are you using the word "akshara" for beat ? like one clap or wave? (akshara is a letter I thought)
Yes one clap/wave. Perhaps the more approp word may be kriya. I think the term akshara is used for this also - like 8 aksharas in Adi tala. However, I am not clear if there are 16 aksharas in Adi 2-kalai or just 16 kriyas representing (still) 8 aksharas.

Arun

Ah! kriya another term for a beat!
it beats me!!!

Thanks

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 15 Sep 2007, 11:18

Just to complicate matters a bit, the equivalence of kriya to a beat does not work for chapu thalas if you go with the standard kriya people use for those thalas. This is along the same lines as the exception that Arun mentioned for these chapu thalas.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 15 Sep 2007, 11:18

I think Appu has explained it well - 5 speeds is usually the 3 kaalams in chatusram with tisram in 2 speeds squeezed in between. It is interestting that TKG, a disciple of Musiri, should experiment with such rhythmic adventures. Of course Suguna Purushottaman is another prime example!

Suji, Kriya is not a term for a beat. As Arun has explained it is a sequnece of hand signals which may be one or more beat. A Laghu for example is the first part of the Adi taala (clap followed by 3 finger counts) - that is 4 beats. Drutam is a clap followed by a "khali". Anudrutam (used only in Jhampa taala) is just a clap. Thus except for Anudrutram all other kriyas are more than 1 beat in duration.

Arun I don't think there is any difference difference in the approach to chapu talas. Mel kalam, Tisram, khandam can be done for these just as in Adi/Rupakam. Of course suitability is another matter - I've never heard a vilamba piece in Khanda Chapu for instance - vilamba krithis in 5 beat cycles are usually in Khanda Eka - e.g Hariharaputram of MD in Vasantha.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 15 Sep 2007, 11:38

Thanks VK and Vijay,

You are the experts in laya...

I somehow need some visual demo of all this speed and the way the "swaras"(ah !my turn to use this word)) are spilt in all different speeds, tisram chatursra etc...
Taking an eg of mohana varnam would be good.

Now my turn to learn and digest.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 15 Sep 2007, 11:56

Suji, I am no expert on laya - I just happen to know the definition of a kriya and even that understanding is seriously limited...as regards your next question, that does require the services of a laya expert and I hope someone will oblige so that I can learn along with you!

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 15 Sep 2007, 12:23

Vijay,
If I understood your post right, you are confusing between angas and kriya in your attempt to differentiate between Kriya and Beat. Laghu is an anga and is shown with the help of kriyas. I think Kriya is just a physical gesture. One or more kriyas can be combined to form an anga. Please refer to the 10 elements of tala thread for the definition (post 20) of kriya.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 15 Sep 2007, 12:54

sbala, I was going to say the same thing. Given that, the exception with chapu thalas regarding kriya and beat still exists. ( until someone helps me to get the righti idea or a way to reconcile it )

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 15 Sep 2007, 14:03

Ah that's right Bala - that proves my point about my laya expertise!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 15 Sep 2007, 21:21

perhaps it is now appropriate to move some of the last posts to a separate thread?

I may be confused about cApu talas but here is why I said they are different. It seems to me that in practice (e.g. in krithis), they are treated as a mixture of gatis. For example, miSra cApu can be interpreted as first part being tiSram and second part is catusram. So sort of like a tala with 2 aksharas where 1st akshara is tiSra gati, and 2nd akshara in catusra gati. Or perhaps, it is 3 aksharas, where 1 is tiSram, and the next two are in catusra.

I am having a hard time coming with the right explanation as to why this is so - but its sort of treated as

111 | 2222
(or
111 | 2222 2222

I am not sure if both are right but it doesnt matter for my point as it is more about the first part. I think the first part is usually treated as 1 unit and so when it goes to mel kalam it becomes 1111111 (6 as a unit).

Now contrast this with catuSra gati tiSra tripuTa, where it goes like

1111 1111 1111 | 2222 2222 | 3333 3333 ||

The first part (1111 1111 1111) is not necessarily a single unit like in miSra cApu. There are just 3 aksharas in catusra gati that form one anga. In miSra cApu it is like 1 tisra gati akshara that forms in anga.

Mathematically both can become the same but I think musically there is a difference.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 15 Sep 2007, 21:50

I second Arun's request
VK can you move the post from 8 onwards where I posted my query regarding speed.
Give a title like that of dabblers.... and put it under sangeeta kala(laya)

rather than tala since we already have several high level topic there.
I like a beginner level discussion in it.

I hope someone can provide a visual demo using swaras rather than mridamgam notes (this might be asking for too much)

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 15 Sep 2007, 23:06

arunk wrote:Mathematically both can become the same but I think musically there is a difference.

I tend to agree with that although mathematically they are the same. You can usually make out Misra Chapu from the structure of the krithi. The emphasis on the 1st, 3rd, 7th or 11th matras is usually quite noticeable (krithis like Janani Ninnuvinna, Akshaya Linga Vibho, Amba Kamakshi, Mari Vere etc.) On the hand Thyagaraja's krithis such as Pakkala Nilabadi and Etulabrotuvo in places stress other matras although the overall pattern is still familiar.

However many opine that Misra Chapu is just a reduced version of Tisra Triputa (just as usual manner of keeping time for Rupakam is a reduced version of Chatusra Eka). Also when RTPs are sung in Tisra Triputa the taalam is usually reduced to Misra Chapu. I'm really still confused about how different talas with the same time durations can be differentiated (although the ardhi helps) so I will leave it there.

BTW, the first of the 2 notations (I presume "1" and "2" refer to the second part rather than the number of beats) for Misra Chapus correct. If the first part is 3, the second part would be 2+2 and if the first part is 6 (mel kaalam) then the second part is 4+4.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 15 Sep 2007, 23:47

vijay wrote:BTW, the first of the 2 notations (I presume "1" and "2" refer to the second part rather than the number of beats) for Misra Chapus correct. If the first part is 3, the second part would be 2+2 and if the first part is 6 (mel kaalam) then the second part is 4+4.

You are right. But in krithis in complicated sangatis not all parts (i.e. angas) go into mEl kAlam - I was trying to imply that (but was having trouble).

However many opine that Misra Chapu is just a reduced version of Tisra Triputa (just as usual manner of keeping time for Rupakam is a reduced version of Chatusra Eka). Also when RTPs are sung in Tisra Triputa the taalam is usually reduced to Misra Chapu.

Yes - miSra cApu is indeed a "sub-set" of all possibilities of tiSra tripuTa. But when you one tries to equate say 2 cycles of miSra cApu <=> 1 cycle of tiSra tripuTa (like 2 cycles of rUpaka cApu <=> 1 cycle of catuSra rUpaka), I think you end up some trouble - mainly because how the first part is treated sort of like tiSram.

I dont know in mIsra cApu 2 cycles of mel-kalam (28) are simply done with 7 ta-ka-di-mi's (i.e. 7*4 = 28) and variations within, or always more like ta-ka-ta-ri-ki-Ta ta-ka-di-mi-ta-ka-ju-Nu ta-ka-ta-ri-ki-Ta ta-ka-di-m-ta-ka-ju-Nu ( 6 + 4 + 4 + 6 + 4 + 4) and variations within. Note that I am here talking about how the melody of song may flow, and not how a mridangist would accompany.

Of course there are also things you can do with tiSra tripuTa which I dont know if are done in miSra cApu. Like you can have tiSra tripuTa in tiSra gati (ta-ki-Ta ta-ki-Ta ta-ki-Ta | ta-ki-Ta ta-ki-Ta | ta-ki-Ta ta-ki-Ta ||) khaNDa gati etc.

Anyways, I always cannot convince myself miSra cApu "is just a reduced" tiSra tripuTa (not that my opinion mounts to anything). Also some I think some of this to bring cApu's into the umbrella of the "defined talas" allowed by the "Sastras" etc.

Arun

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 16 Sep 2007, 03:44

Ok here's the akhilAnDESwari clip.
So is the tAlam in Adi in tisra gati? I want to get the nomenclature right.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDjYZcCOhvA

Unfortunately there is a delay in audio to video..

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 16 Sep 2007, 03:57

I'm really still confused about how different talas with the same time durations can be differentiated (although the ardhi helps) so I will leave it there.

Vijay, I am with you. Atleast for non-chapu thalas, arudhi helps a lot as a tie breaker, though still not 100%. I have tried to approach CM rhythm from bare fundamentals: beats per minute (BPM), sub-divisions per beat (SDB) and avarthana repetition beat count (ARC). All the various, sometimes conflicting and possibly confusing, terminology should be explainable and restatable using these three fundamental things. It is left as an exercise to that curious someone to define the following CM concepts using the above three concepts: mAthrai, aksharam, speed, kAlam, tempo, gathi, naDai, kaLai, stress points and arudhi.

Arudhi is an aesthetic concept and it is a 'feelable' concept and it helps as a way to sub divide the avathana count further. But Arudhi is not part of the thala structure definition. Thala Angas, on the other hand, which are really not that significantly and consistently 'feelable' are part and parcel of a thala definition. And to top if off, even mridangists don't care much about thala angas and their art form is rooted on BPM, sub-divisions, avarthana beat count (and the various permutations and combinations of these ) and arudhi where applicable. I do not mean to minimize the thala angas. They definitely serve the great purpose of marking where one is on the thala avartha. It is more of a (self) conducting tool ( so to say ) than anything fundamental to the actual exposition of the rhythm. ( I am very receptive to any opposing viewpoint on this ). I would personally elevate the concept of arudhi to be part of the aesthetic definition of the rhythic structure as part of introducing what a CM thala is.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 16 Sep 2007, 04:02

Ok here's the akhilAnDESwari clip.
So is the tAlam in Adi in tisra gati? I want to get the nomenclature right.

I think it is Adi, 2 kaLai, chathusra gathi.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 16 Sep 2007, 05:00

vasanthakokilam wrote:
Ok here's the akhilAnDESwari clip.
So is the tAlam in Adi in tisra gati? I want to get the nomenclature right.
I think it is Adi, 2 kaLai, chathusra gathi.

Im not convinced. It seems like tisra in most places

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 16 Sep 2007, 07:45

suji - why do you say that? You think MS is putting talam in tiSra gati (beat-beat-pause beat-beat-pause beat-beat-pause as opposed to beat-pause beat-pause beat-pause beat-pause) or do you find the melody to be in tiSra gati?

If I forget the video and simply put talam to the audio, catuSra gati (2-kaLai) is what fits. I want to know if there are any other cues you are going by.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 16 Sep 2007, 09:02

arunk wrote:suji - why do you say that? You think MS is putting talam in tiSra gati (beat-beat-pause beat-beat-pause beat-beat-pause as opposed to beat-pause beat-pause beat-pause beat-pause)

Yes. When I was trying to learn I did go by catuSra gati. I started getting some vague feeling that it wasn't fitting and I am missing some thing.. On hearing again and again I am hearing as if there is a pause after 2 beats.
Does anyone have a book to refer this kriti?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 16 Sep 2007, 09:10

Suji:

I probably went overboard with this

... my much beloved iPhone has a stopwatch with a lap button. I kept tapping the lap button for every sub-beat. Here is the result: For one avarthanam of the song, I got 32 beats, each lasting .3 seconds.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 16 Sep 2007, 09:22

suji, i have RRI's kirtanamala book. It is catusra gati Adi 2-kaLai only.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 16 Sep 2007, 10:25

Ah, the karnatik.com has notations to this kriti!! Which book is this from TKG?

It says tisra Ekam though :rolleyes:

That would fit isn't it?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 16 Sep 2007, 10:46

Here is the image of the notation from karnatik.com : http://www.karnatik.com/nc1481.jpg

I do not know why it says Tisra Ekam at the bottom... But at the top, to the right of the Arohanam, Avarohanam it says 16x4 which stands for 16 beats ( Adi 2 kaLai ) with each one divided into 4 sub beats ( chathusra gathi ). Just as an aside, the 'tisra' in tisra ekam does not refer to tisra gathi but to the tisra jAthi of the Laghu.

bhaktha · Post by **bhaktha** » 16 Sep 2007, 11:01

Digressing a bit...but still...I have heard that for capu thalams only catusra and tisra nadais are possible...Why is this so? For eg., I haven't heard any one play kanda nadai in misra capu during the tani... I vaguely remember reading somewhere that it has got something to do with the korappu, when there would arise calculations involving 1/2 matra (which is not possible as the least count is 1 matra)... Interestingly though, all nadais are possible for Tisra Triputa...Anyone to clarify?
-Bhaktha

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 16 Sep 2007, 11:19

vasanthakokilam wrote:Here is the image of the notation from karnatik.com : http://www.karnatik.com/nc1481.jpg

I do not know why it says Tisra Ekam at the bottom... But at the top, to the right of the Arohanam, Avarohanam it says 16x4 which stands for 16 beats ( Adi 2 kaLai ) with each one divided into 4 sub beats ( chathusra gathi ). Just as an aside, the 'tisra' in tisra ekam does not refer to tisra gathi but to the tisra jAthi of the Laghu.

Thanks VK.
Then I have been practising it right in C gathi.
Ah another term jAti ! :rolleyes: This is for another day..

This kriti is so beautiful.. Im just playing it
I discovered the notation late, but i don't think I can follow as much as just listening to MS render it.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 16 Sep 2007, 12:56

Having already botched up one clarification one hesitates - but anyway, Jathi refers to the 5 varieties of each of the 7 taalas..tisra, chatusra, khanda, Misra and Sankirna...Adi taalam is Chatusra Triputa. The Jathis refer to the finger to the total beats of the Laghu - 3,4,5,7 and 9 for the Jathis respectively

As VK mentions Gathi or Nadai refers to the subvisions of a beat. This clip is definitely in Chatusra Nadai as it should be

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 16 Sep 2007, 13:01

arunk wrote:Of course there are also things you can do with tiSra tripuTa which I dont know if are done in miSra cApu. Like you can have tiSra tripuTa in tiSra gati (ta-ki-Ta ta-ki-Ta ta-ki-Ta | ta-ki-Ta ta-ki-Ta | ta-ki-Ta ta-ki-Ta ||) khaNDa gati etc.

Arun

A krithi in Misra Chapu, Tisra Nadai does strike me as bizarre! But tisram, khandam, misram etc. (nadai variations) can and are done for Misra Chapu taalam by both vicalists and percussionists.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 16 Sep 2007, 22:23

vijay wrote:Having already botched up one clarification one hesitates - but anyway, Jathi refers to the 5 varieties of each of the 7 taalas..tisra, chatusra, khanda, Misra and Sankirna...Adi taalam is Chatusra Triputa. The Jathis refer to the finger to the total beats of the Laghu - 3,4,5,7 and 9 for the Jathis respectively

As VK mentions Gathi or Nadai refers to the subvisions of a beat. This clip is definitely in Chatusra Nadai as it should be

so adi talam is always tisra jati?
And gati can be tisra, catusra and what else?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 16 Sep 2007, 23:12

The official name for Adi is Chathusra jAthi triputa thalam. So Adi is always Chathusra Jathi since its Laghu is four beats ( the 4 + 2 + 2 structure ). Jaathi refers to a property of the laghu, namely the number of beats in it: tisram (3), chathusram (4), kandam(5), misram ( 7) and sankeernam (9).

Gathi ( the number of subdivisions with in a beat ) can be tisram (3), chathusram (4), kandam(5), misram ( 7) and sankeernam (9).

So if you want to fully describe the thala for Akilandeswari it is: 2 kaLai Chatusra Jathi Triputa Thala Chathusra Gathi

( I made an 'upstart'ish comment elsewhere in this thread about the lack of musical usefulness of the thala angas but among the various angas the Laghu is musically significant since in most thalas it defines the pUrvAnga of an avarthanam of a krithi and usually the arudhi falls on the beat after the pUrvAnga. Since arudhi is musically significant, so is the Laghu ).

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 16 Sep 2007, 23:54

Thanks VK,
That was my understanding

But I am not sure why the kriti has tisra ekam written at the bottom of the page

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 17 Sep 2007, 21:29

Suji Ram wrote:Ah, the karnatik.com has notations to this kriti!! Which book is this from TKG?
It says tisra Ekam though

I think tiSra Ekam at the bottom is a typo. Notice at the top-left of song it says 16*4 consistent only with Adi 2-kaLai - so do notations themselves in terms of 16 groups of 4 (although there seems to be a typo in notation on the first line where an extra comma appears in R,, ,, for Sva should be R, ,,) and of course the tALa markers (between 8th and 9th, 13th and 14th).

That would fit isn't it?

tiSra Ekam (3 aksharas per cycle) will not fit for Adi in catuSra gati - unless pallavi and anupallavi etc. are sung "n" number of times where "n" is a multiple of 3 I dont think that is usually the case - besides each iteration would not fit a certain number of cycles, and you will sync up only after 3 iterations. So not ideal.

(perhaps interestingly and may be this explains the typo) cEtaSri, the other dwijAvanti song of dIkshitar is in rUpaka tALa 2-kaLai and I think there tiSra Ekam would fit.

Also, tiSra Ekam would fit for Adi in tiSra gati. For some sungs like karuNAnidilO (tODi - SS), some books label as Adi - tiSra, but others do tiSra-Ekam/rUpakam). I do not know which way (in terms of naDai) the inherent melody of the song leans (both being equal seems more from a math point of view to me unless melody does not have to indicate any direction).

Arun

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 17 Sep 2007, 21:40

That would fit isn't it?

There was a typo in my statement itself. I meant wouldn't. Sorry
Anyway thanks Arun for the extra information too. I appreciate that.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 18 Sep 2007, 00:54

vijay wrote:I think Appu has explained it well - 5 speeds is usually the 3 kaalams in chatusram with tisram in 2 speeds squeezed in between. It is interestting that TKG, a disciple of Musiri, should experiment with such rhythmic adventures. Of course Suguna Purushottaman is another prime example!

Can someone point me to a clip where Tisram, Chatusram, Mel kala Tisram are used? I would love to be able to tell the difference

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 18 Sep 2007, 01:07

sureshvv

check out http://www.musicindiaonline.com/p/x/9Ux ... As1NMvHdW/ where Bombay sisters have rendered sarasuDa different speeds - Don't know how many. Since they do not do full iterations in each speed - it would be a good exercise to tell how many speeds, and which speed in which part

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 18 Sep 2007, 01:09

sureshvv wrote:Can someone point me to a clip where Tisram, Chatusram, Mel kala Tisram are used? I would love to be able to tell the difference

Here is one that gives you what you asked for and more. This is a demonstration of Pallavi singing at its grandest by Shri. Manakkal Rangarajan. http://www.sangeethapriya.org/~sripathy ... ration.mp3

sindhu · Post by **sindhu** » 04 Oct 2007, 09:42

Each count is taken as an aksharam. For chatusra nadai (1 kaLai), each count wd b 1/2/4 and for tishra nadi (1 kaLai) 0.75/1.5/3. AKSHARAM means eternal(imperishable).

gobilalitha · Post by **gobilalitha** » 18 Oct 2007, 15:19

excuse me, a personal quetion,if permitted. Is sramaswamy a forum member , a doctor by profession. a vidwan of AIR madras, hailing from Salem and a brother of S Ravindran, a noted veena player of a high calibre gobilalitha

vaibhavam · Post by **vaibhavam** » 04 Apr 2008, 19:40

Personally I have witnessed a young girl violinist named Ms.L.Athira play the grand Bhairavi Adathala Varnam "Viriboni" in five tempos for her Violin Solo Concert at the Hamsadwani 's december Season Concert some time back.

It was really nice to see the Varnam unfolding itself...
Maybe it requires quite lot of saadhana.

sramaswamy · Post by **sramaswamy** » 04 Apr 2008, 22:07

gobilalitha wrote:excuse me, a personal quetion,if permitted. Is sramaswamy a forum member , a doctor by profession. a vidwan of AIR madras, hailing from Salem and a brother of S Ravindran, a noted veena player of a high calibre gobilalitha

Gobilatha

I wish the above were true. but I am not. I am in my 40s and a beginner in Carnatic Music and live in Atlanta, USA

Sathej · Post by **Sathej** » 30 Apr 2008, 19:34

Well, playing Viriboni in five speeds - yes, indeed it requires a lot of Sadhakam. But then, aren't two speeds enough to portray everything that the great Varnam has?
Sathej

sramaswamy · Post by **sramaswamy** » 30 Apr 2008, 21:50

I would say faster speeds are more in the nature of technical wizardry and ones mastery and does not have any aesthetic appeal