Exposure to carnatic music

manvantara · Post by **manvantara** » 15 Apr 2008, 00:51

As a new parent (my son is just two years old), I often worry about how best to expose him to carnatic music, living here in the mid-west USA. Granted, there is a lot of stuff online these days but....
Back in the days when I was in school/college (I was in Madras), at home, my father always used to have the radio switched on in the mornings (arangisai) and evenings (kutcheri on FM) and we (my brother and I) kept listening to a lot of good music. My parents have themselves not learnt music formally, but by listening to it almost every day, have become rather well trained (trained?:)) rasikas. As a family, this is a great bond between us - we can all go to a concert, enjoy it together and talk about it afterwards.

Sitting in the USA now, I am very keen that my son too becomes a knowledgeable rasika. Also, I want him to learn vocal and and to play an instrument too. I really hope that in the years to come, carnatic music is yet another bond between us.

My question to other parents outside India, who have been successful with this is:

1. How often does your child attend class?
2. What do you do about exposure to music? (My teacher Smt.Savithri Satyamurthy always used to highlight the importance of "kelvi jnanam" and insist that we attend at least two concerts every month and report to her).
3. Is it only the children of musicians/dancers who get the constant exposure to the arts and hence learn faster?
4. Do your children regularly go to India (during summer months, for instance), to attend music and dance classes?
5. If both parents are working full time (as is the case here), I feel we barely have time to interact with our son - except during weekends and even then, mundane work and social visits take up time. Where then is the time to learn and listen?

Answers to these and any other tips would be appreciated. Thank you!

shishya · Post by **shishya** » 15 Apr 2008, 00:56

manvantara,

Try listening to CDs in the car since that is where I think I end up speding most of my time with my child. Also, play some music as your son goes to bed. Even if he falls asleep, the music is still making an impression on him.

manvantara · Post by **manvantara** » 15 Apr 2008, 01:06

shishya, currently our drive to the daycare is only about 10 minutes, during which time *I* sing.

We listen to CDs when we are home in the evenings - whatever else we are doing, there is music in the background. Also, I try to sing varisais or gitams or any kriti every evening, at least for 15-20 minutes.
Regarding music when he goes to sleep, my husband started off with a CD which has "Vaishnava jana to" sung very beautifully and currently that is the only song he will listen to when he goes to bed.

Perhaps I should talk him into varying it.

gobilalitha · Post by **gobilalitha** » 15 Apr 2008, 06:16

thanks for your lofty ideals. but what is the urgen cy?. let him be a child for some more time . c an you get back c hildhood pranks and misc hief ? my son at singapore wanted to admit his son in a carnatic music class.
they wanted him to wait till he completed 5 yearsand for hindustani music 6years....gob ilalitha

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 15 Apr 2008, 06:54

It is all about our wishes and ambitions; do'nt we want our chid to have his/her own wishes and ambitions? Child carries 50% of parents culture and likings if we walk those cultures and likings. Let the other 50% be the child's decision. When we push our child, they continue to obey until they come up of age and then revolt against whatever parents stand for. Just my 2cents.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 15 Apr 2008, 06:57

I agree with gobilalitha - let your son listen to a lot of music (sing to him or play CDs whenever possible) but don't push him into a class until he is at least 5 or 6.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 15 Apr 2008, 07:32

I think manvantara is talking about exposing her son to music at an early age, not to send him to classes at too young an age. Her stated goal is "I really hope that in the years to come, carnatic music is yet another bond between us." As everyone has stated and you yourself is practising, being in an environement of good music at this age should do wonders. The brain is rewiring itself at that age at a rapid pace and why not musical input be one of the stimuli in that rewiring process. I do not think anyone knows the exact cause and effect of such musical exposure at that age, but no one has pointed any negative things about it, so it makes sense to do it. I would think repetition and structure helps. A baby learns the language of the surroundings so naturally. What is needed is repetition and affirmation.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 15 Apr 2008, 13:14

If one listens to carnatic music, the child also will listen.

When he is older, he might like it. Equally he may decide he is thoroughly fed up with it and join a punk rock band.

Actually, even if he does that he may be grateful to you for having explained some of the grammar of music to him as he grows up.

The music that I loved at twenty did not exist when I was two, and my parents would not have approved of it if it had

paddu · Post by **paddu** » 15 Apr 2008, 13:38

Manvantara,
I understand all the eagerness that you have expressed as I was in the same state some time ago. I have a 5 year old daughter.
Though I was eager to put her to music class, sometimes felt that I might be trying to impose my liking on her.
At the same time, I wanted her not to miss the wonderful bliss called music.
I therefore decided, I would try to expose to all types of music be it CM, HM, Western Classical, Light Music, film music,,,,.

When my daughter was 2 years old, I would sing some kritis while putting her to sleep. Since then it has become a routine.
Also at home, most of the time, either I am singing or listening to some music. She has now developed a taste for some songs and she wants me to repeat only some parts of the songs ...like in Rama Katha Sudha, she likes the line BhamaMani...

Also, we had bought some Baby Eintein CDs. This has some wonderful music (from Bach, Motzart, Beethovan... very easy on babies). She has since then developed a liking for western music. She can now hum along, when she comes across these pieces.

I think the more the children listen to music- the probability of them liking some sort music (not necessarily CM) is more.

Hope this is of some help to you.

Thanks
Paddu

sampoorna · Post by **sampoorna** » 15 Apr 2008, 18:50

Namaskaram,

This is a topic that I also have to deal with on a regular basis. I have a daughter around 7 years old. Since she was a baby (even before) I have played carnatic music for her regularly. Whatever I know (not too much), I try to sing to her. I have been taking her to concerts in our area since she was 18 months old (and her little sister since she was three months old). She goes to western violin and carnatic sangeetham classes once every week. She has a very good ear and voice (I think) but a very short attention span. She is a very very active girl and getting her to sit down to practice is quite a challenge. The practice sessions are quite difficult for her (because she is loosing her play time:-), but she loves both her teachers so much that she will do it. We took the children to Cleveland this year and they enjoyed it. Sometimes I think that other children her age are able to sit and concentrate so she should be able too .... then I know that if I push her too much I will loose her. In practice she usually only concentrates on the shruti and the laya (not tala) - I do not insist too much since she may not want to practice regularly. She has great teachers so I leave the rest to them.

It is easier when they are below 1st grade to expose them to music as much as you want. It gets more difficult when they go to full day school and have classes afterward. There is very little time to spend with them. Also beginning with middle school they get very busy with school work. So it is a good idea to make them learn as much as possible within fifth grade. Then they will know that they 'know' and will be less inclined to give it up. Overall what is really working for me is the love she (her sister follows her to the t) has for her teachers, who are really quite outstanding.

To sum up:

1) Expose them to music as much as you can before the go to full day school.
2) Find them great teachers.
3) Encourage them to learn as much as they can before 5th grade.
4) Enjoy concerts as a family.
5) Learn from the same teacher yourself to model the behaviour you expect.

After all this there is still a lot of self doubt, but that is life. We do what we can. I hope that there are some pointers in my experience that you can benefit from.

Best Regards,

Sampoorna.

carnaticpriya · Post by **carnaticpriya** » 15 Apr 2008, 19:40

Manvantara,

In additon to all the above,If you have a good circle of musically inclined friends and family, try to host or attend some casual, in house concerts when kids can come and sing. Once or twice a month is good enough. We see a lot like this in CA.

fuddyduddy · Post by **fuddyduddy** » 15 Apr 2008, 20:29

yes... exposure is the key. my 2 daughters (8 and 5) seem to have a great aptitude for carnatic music BUT there is a lot of peer pressure since their friends are all into hannah montana and i have to struggle to keep hannah out of my house...
there's the whole issue of self-esteem for the indian kids here... i do find my kids having more fun when they are involved in the western activities no matter how much we try to involve them with other indian kids and activities... we keep singing and playing carnatic cd's constantly and sometimes i wonder if i'm pushing them too much but i cant stop myself due to my craze for music...
getting a great music teacher is also a boon and we have been lucky with that.. they love the teacher and think of her as an aunt or relative.. but due to my time constraints, the teachers timings etc, we can only get an hour a week as supposed to being in india where you can meet the teacher much more than that... i just feel like i will have to make the best of the situation, attend as many concerts, play carnatic in the car always for our long long drives , and practice, practice, and more practice.... at the end of the day, i just want my kids to be happy with whatever they do (and i have to get used to the fact that what makes me happy cant be the things that make them happy!!)

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 15 Apr 2008, 20:57

There is nothing that makes us as happy as when we see the children happy, and grandparents know it best

manvantara · Post by **manvantara** » 16 Apr 2008, 00:05

gobilalitha wrote:thanks for your lofty ideals. but what is the urgen cy?. let him be a child for some more time . c an you get back c hildhood pranks and misc hief ? my son at singapore wanted to admit his son in a carnatic music class.
they wanted him to wait till he completed 5 yearsand for hindustani music 6years....gob ilalitha

--

Well, from what I see, he seems to be picking up things really fast (maybe this is a phase) -- for instance, his father got him started on identifying car makes and models and now he seems to have overtaken me, as he can spot not only the make but the model of a car from a distance (whereas I have to look at the logo to tell the difference!).
So I feel that exposure at this age is crucial.

And as vasanthakokilam pointed out, my wish is that carnatic music turns out to be another bond between us, that is all. I am not keen on training him to be a professional musician or even win prizes in the local competitions. I want him to enjoy carnatic music and I want to give the right type of inputs for it, that is all. No hurry.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 16 Apr 2008, 02:01

fuddyduddy wrote:yes... exposure is the key. my 2 daughters (8 and 5) seem to have a great aptitude for carnatic music BUT there is a lot of peer pressure since their friends are all into hannah montana and i have to struggle to keep hannah out of my house...

I have to sound a note of dissonance here: As someone vested in keeping our children well integrated in the society they live and go to school in, and the bi-cultural existence they revel in we have actively integrated the likes of Hannah, Ally & AJ, and Jonas Bros, along with CM, and bharatanATyam, bollywood music, in addition to choral music and playing drums for the school band - and we hope to ultimately create a wholesome collage! Who knows, our experiment may not be very successful, but for now, it is paying off, with each of these helping the other in some way. Of course, the hidden cost here is time.

mridangamkid · Post by **mridangamkid** » 16 Apr 2008, 02:58

manvantara wrote:As a new parent (my son is just two years old), I often worry about how best to expose him to carnatic music, living here in the mid-west USA. Granted, there is a lot of stuff online these days but....
Back in the days when I was in school/college (I was in Madras), at home, my father always used to have the radio switched on in the mornings (arangisai) and evenings (kutcheri on FM) and we (my brother and I) kept listening to a lot of good music. My parents have themselves not learnt music formally, but by listening to it almost every day, have become rather well trained (trained?:)) rasikas. As a family, this is a great bond between us - we can all go to a concert, enjoy it together and talk about it afterwards.

Sitting in the USA now, I am very keen that my son too becomes a knowledgeable rasika. Also, I want him to learn vocal and and to play an instrument too. I really hope that in the years to come, carnatic music is yet another bond between us.

My question to other parents outside India, who have been successful with this is:

1. How often does your child attend class?
2. What do you do about exposure to music? (My teacher Smt.Savithri Satyamurthy always used to highlight the importance of "kelvi jnanam" and insist that we attend at least two concerts every month and report to her).
3. Is it only the children of musicians/dancers who get the constant exposure to the arts and hence learn faster?
4. Do your children regularly go to India (during summer months, for instance), to attend music and dance classes?
5. If both parents are working full time (as is the case here), I feel we barely have time to interact with our son - except during weekends and even then, mundane work and social visits take up time. Where then is the time to learn and listen?

Answers to these and any other tips would be appreciated. Thank you!

Being a young aspiring mridangist, I am definitely in no position to tell you what you should or shouldn't do, however if you don't mind, I will tell you what both my mother (MKM), and father did and didn't do to get me interested in Carnatic Music.

First I must say that I am very blessed with great parents that didn't pressure me into do something I really had no interest in. When I was younger, around the age of 5 or so, my parents would just take me into CM concerts, however they would never make me sit through the whole thing because they know it will be uncomfortable for me, and the audience and musicians if I start getting loud. They would of course ask me to sit down to listen for a little bit, but they would also let me go out in the hall and play a little bit, as long as I'm not too loud. This is what helped me get into Carnatic music more, I listened when I wanted to listen and when I enjoyed it. I think you should expose your child to Carnatic music, but if you force them to listen to it, they will just do it because you are making them and when grow older and have more of a say in what they want to do, they will just quit.

My parents also put music on around the house and in the car. This did help me in the sense that I got more "used" to the music. Obviously for different generations, different types of music will be popular at the type, such as in America, it was first Jazz, to Reagge, then light Rock, then Heavy Metal Rock, to "punk" or different types of Boy Bands or Pop, (Such as Backstreet Boys, or N'Sync), to now Rap, or as others mentioned, Hannah Montanan. This shows that it's very hard for a child to get out of whats "popular", and per say "follow the beat of a different drummer". Having CM always played around the house, it helped me understand it more, and most of all, appreciate it more. This is how having music played around the house helped.

The most important factor I think, however, is in the child itself. As I said earlier, one of the best things my parents have done to raise me is not force me to do anything I don't want to do (except study of course

) Even after you take your son to concerts, and you play music in your house, if your son is not interested in CM, he will not take part in it, or even worse, he will and will not exceed which will make both you and him miserable. One thing my Mother has always told me, is that if you have a passion for something, you should try your best in that and you will exceed your most in that. She has never forced me to practice my mridangam, nor has she ever forced me to go to class, she, much like my mridangam teacher (Raj Shaker Attmakuri), never tells me exactly how much to practice, they may tell me "you should practice about 2 hours a day" at most, but never sit with me or watch me practice, because they both know the interest should be in the student, not in the parent. I have made "threats" to my mother when I was in a temper tantrum, saying that I will quit mridangam if I am in a bad mood, she would then just give me the phone and tell me to call my teacher and tell him I quit. She would always tell me that if I am really not interested in mridangam, and want to waste the past 5 or 6 years of my life, then so be it and to call him, obviously I never call.

Sorry for making this such a long post, but to summarize, from a kids point of view, you should expose your child to as much CM music as possible, but if you see that he truly detests learning, then you shouldn't force him, because it will just push him farther away from CM. I just hope I didn't misspeak for my mom, I'll ask her to post and maybe she will give you a better answer than I did.

I hope I didn't waste your time too much ha ha.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 16 Apr 2008, 03:39

Mridamgamkid:

You go boy!

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 16 Apr 2008, 04:01

Wow MKid,

That was a good and practical piece of advice for parents.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 16 Apr 2008, 04:04

Yes, mrdangamkid--from the horse's mouth. Your experience counts a lot in this discussion. As we mentioned it elsewhere, you are lucky to have understanding parents.
Yes, the child knows best, in most cases. Those cases being the ones where the parents encourage and inspire but don't push. When everything comes together, a child would enjoy music--CM and the rest (whatever is popular among peers). When we were growing up, before the advent of television, we liked our CM but loved to listen to Lata, Rafi and all the rest. on the radio. There were some elders in the family who frowned on it. It did not stop us!

Ravi,
Your emphasis is on the 'whole-some' child. You have one who is into many activities including bharatanatyam. That is the best way to go.

MKM · Post by **MKM** » 16 Apr 2008, 04:44

Now let me tell you the flip side of my son mridangamkid's argument. yes.. what he wrote is what we did with him and CM. however, I often wonder whether we are doing him wrong by not 'pushing' as much as we should?! for example... atleast for the last 2 years people who listen to him ask me why he is not accompanying concerts when his 'hand' is so good. Why are we being complacent about his art? A pushy mother of a child artist actually asked me if I EVER intended to see him in a concert at all!
The struggle comes when I see 'prodigies' springing up everywhere... but if we push the kids up too soon how long can they sustain? Oh..there's no smple answer.

All in all...pushing and putting pressure to the right extent is a delicate balance.. It is tough indeed. One thing I can say is .. we let our kids be in all American activities as well such , as soccer, Ice hockey, Boy scouts and what not , besides sahasranamam class, Violin, mridangam and such. This gave them common ground when with non CM kids.
With young kids at home juggling time is the biggest challenge.

fuddyduddy · Post by **fuddyduddy** » 16 Apr 2008, 06:00

rshankar - u probably misunderstood... ofcourse they need to have both cultures and my point is they seem more happier with the other culture (their ballet, hockey, ice skating, playdates, etc) which i guess makes them feel equal to their peers...
but most performing musicians to whom i have spoken to say they should practice for a few hours etc etc but with all other stuff, i dont get that time... and since i see them happy with the other stuff, i just let go. so carnatic music just becomes 'another' activity whereas i would like it to be the main activity for them!! and i know i'm not alone since every parent has a certain passion and we just have to be patient till the kid becomes passionate about it too

mridangamkid - thanks for your comments. its good to hear something first-hand.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 16 Apr 2008, 06:10

MKM wrote:With young kids at home juggling time is the biggest challenge.

MKM,

That is our biggest issue as well. When it comes to parenting, there is no 'control' to figure out if our experimental procedure is the best, so, we just have to trust our instincts and try and gauge our children's responses as accurately as possible, and realize that these decisions are not something that can't be reversed or redirected.

mridangamkid · Post by **mridangamkid** » 16 Apr 2008, 06:20

fuddyduddy wrote:rshankar - u probably misunderstood... ofcourse they need to have both cultures and my point is they seem more happier with the other culture (their ballet, hockey, ice skating, playdates, etc) which i guess makes them feel equal to their peers...
but most performing musicians to whom i have spoken to say they should practice for a few hours etc etc but with all other stuff, i dont get that time... and since i see them happy with the other stuff, i just let go. so carnatic music just becomes 'another' activity whereas i would like it to be the main activity for them!! and i know i'm not alone since every parent has a certain passion and we just have to be patient till the kid becomes passionate about it too
mridangamkid - thanks for your comments. its good to hear something first-hand.

I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding the part where you say "i guess it makes them feel equal to their peers", and if I am I apologize, but I don't think that is the case, nor is it the case that we feel more "happier" with the other culture, it's more that we (Indian Kids born and/or raised in America) were raised with this type of culture. Had we been born in India, I probably would be playing Cricket every day rather than Soccer, or Basketball, or which ever sport one plays in America rather than India. It's not that we feel equal to our peers by participating in such events, it is that we grew up / are growing up to learn those events. I don't believe anybody at my school, maybe 1 Indian and definitely nobody of another religion knows I play the Mridangam. I rarely share the fact that I can play an instrument, and if I do, it would just be a brief statement. The point is, is that it's not like we have a choice whether or not to chose an "American" activity, you have to unless you want to be an outsider. That's not saying that you can't participate in any other Indian activity, it's just that many kid's (at least in my experience), are not interested in those activities, they're more interested in Basketball or Baseball.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 16 Apr 2008, 07:45

mridangamkid wrote:I rarely share the fact that I can play an instrument, and if I do, it would just be a brief statement.

Can I ask you why? What do you think would happen if you told them that you did play an instrument?

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 16 Apr 2008, 07:56

Kids do not answer what if questions unless it comes within them.

fuddyduddy · Post by **fuddyduddy** » 16 Apr 2008, 07:59

my daughter doesnt say in her school about her bharatnatyam class and Carnatic music class but she proudly does talk to her teachers about her ballet, skating etc.. to me, this means that she doesnt want to show off the 'indian'ness in her. her teachers were surprised when they learnt from me about these classes.. so, thats what i mean when i talk about equality... she wants to talk about her western classes only, since she can relate to her friends better..
And i agree that its not a choice betn american activities but its a choice with the indian activities.. if i dont push subtly, its the indian activities that will fall off her schedule. and i have nothing against hannah, its just that the more my daughter listens to that, the lesser time it will be with what i want her to do.. because i know she loves carnatic too and can sing pretty good and occasionally identify a raga or 2 and i want to nurture that...
the point i really was trying to make is that inorder to keep them in par with the community, they have to be in so many other classes which eventually reduces the time for carnatic... i dont think a kid in chennai would be pressurised to learn iceskating... i'm sure they have other things to do but the opportunities here are endless... i just signed her up for 'destination imagination' and there are so many similar ones that she is interested in.. her friends are in it and so she wants to try it.. so, again it means lesser time with carnatic music..
dint mean to offend anyone by bringing up equality etc... its really a problem i face with my kid.. she felt different right when she was 2 and asked me why she is more 'brown'er than the others in the restaurant

and ever since, ive been trying to keep her self confidence high!! so please dont pay too much attention to my posts... i might just be venting off my issues

ciao.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 16 Apr 2008, 09:52

mridangamkid,
The reason rshankar asks the question as to why you are brief in talking about your mrudangam playing is this: that it would be interesting for them to know that there are other kinds of drums in other parts of the world and that you are able to play one of those instruments. A bit of a cultural trivia! Perhaps the music teacher would be interested too, and may ask you to give a demonstration in class! On the other hand, you may not want to be focussed upon, or may even feel that you may be teased about it (ah! the business of growing up!). Anyway, you don't have to do it if you feel uncomfortable about it. Again, since you are a very good player, you might want to offer your peers a chance to savor the sounds of India. If not in your class, students in some other grade are bound to be studying about India. You could ask the class teacher or students in that class if you could play the mrudangam to recorded music, asking them if they would integrate your playing into their presentation. I am not asking you to do all this! I am merely saying that it is not a bad idea to have a cultural exchange, that's all. I think that is what rshankar is saying too...

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 16 Apr 2008, 10:17

fuddyduddy,
I understand what you are saying. I have been there.
There are two issues here. 1. The children's and parents' interest in learning CM. 2. Their growing up away from their culture.
Your roots are in India, theirs here. Yet, the expressions of India are theirs through you the parents, relatives and indian friends.. While you learn to be part of the mainstream, they have a more difficult task in being part of a culture which is so far away. Well, it is easier nowadays when there are many indian community activities outside India.
Incidentally, I don't think more children attend CM concerts in India than here...
It is a delicate balance you are after. Takes energy and a lot of give and take, but it is worth it...

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 16 Apr 2008, 12:33

Very interesting development of this thread, especially the posts from mridangamkid and from MKM.

M'kid gives us a very mature understanding of inclusiveness (sorry if it seems condescending to comment on the maturity of another; I hope I have enough years to earn the privilege!).

MKM, I don't think you should have any regrets; the success of parenting is not measured in the concert-count of the child!

We are all too familiar wit the horrible spectacle of the PR-department parents. If they are necessary to get youngsters on the stage, then that is a sad state of affairs.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 16 Apr 2008, 13:17

I have been reading this thread with interest especially on the way some of us want to bond with our young ones with CM.
To begin with that is our "motive"- because "we love it" and we are anxious whether they like/accept/learn it or not.

Many of you have given good suggestions..

Here is one approach that seems to work so far with me.
First get them to learn western music as they find it easier to connect with.
Engage yourselves with that music too. That bondage using WM is much more easier. Side by side introduce CM. Once they know you love their WM soon it will come your way too!.
To learn how a piano or a bass is rendered is an experience for me too and I love it!

Apart from my dabbling at odd hours I use CM on ipod after bedtime stories -ear to ear. That is also the time they wish to keep awake as long as they can for you to be around longer.
I had no expectations...but one day when I heard the exclamation "that violin sounds so good (MSG's

)" and the mridamgam is great" I had momentary happiness. This has become a routine.

Today while listening together a TVS piece this was the comment I got when we got to swaraprasthara " Oh, he is making combinations with CDEFGABC and he is shouting because he is reaching higher notes, and then the violinist will follow and then the mridangam.." Yet again a momentary happiness. for me.. ..how long this will last I do not know..

You require the right dosage and a strategy

sampoorna · Post by **sampoorna** » 16 Apr 2008, 15:26

Namaskaram,

I am really touched by the development in this thread. I see so many of you who are so interested in carnatic music and also care so much for your kids. It gives me a lot of encouragement. The main points I am taking from this discussion are that (a) encouraging kids in carnatic music is a long-term process of the whole family (and like minded friends) getting 'naturally' immersed in the CM culture, (b) other interests need to be nurtured as well, especially when living outside India, (c) none of the above are easy - it takes a lot of time and effort, and (d) the kids need to take their own time to learn and enjoy the art form.

Thankyou, I want to do the best job I possibly can with the help of inputs like these.

Regards,

Sampoorna.

shishya · Post by **shishya** » 16 Apr 2008, 17:34

I had an experience similar to m'kid's with my daughter. Her western violin teacher asked her to perform a carnatic krithi that my daughter was getting ready to sing at a navarathri program, during a group lesson and my daughter refused point blank. I didn't push her but asked her later why she didn't sing. She said that there are all English people in the class and that she felt shy to sing Indian song in front of them. She thought that they might think it is wierd.
I am still making sure I have the shruthi box in the car whenever we go to class... just in case she gets over the awkwardness and decides to sing one fine day...

mridangamkid · Post by **mridangamkid** » 16 Apr 2008, 19:13

rshankar wrote:
mridangamkid wrote:I rarely share the fact that I can play an instrument, and if I do, it would just be a brief statement.
Can I ask you why? What do you think would happen if you told them that you did play an instrument?

Well I think I already know what would happen, they wouldn't be interested. I didn't mean to tell you that I have never showed any non-Indian my mridangam, on the contrary, when I was in 4th and 5th grade (class), I would bring my mridangam in many times and play it for my class. I actually played it in one of my school plays where we were singing songs, so yes, my peers have seen it and have heard it. But now I am in High School, where people don't care too much about it. Whenever a friend comes over to my house, they will see the mridangam and may even ask what it is. I tell them its an Indian drum and they will either just say "oh... lets go outside", occasionally "cool... do you play? Can I hear". Obviously I won't say '"NO", but every time I play, they will usually stop me in the middle and just say "ok lets go". I'll admit however, a part of the reason why I don't tell my friends is because I'm shy. I never really mix my school life and my personal life, and I honestly don't plan on it. That is probably the main difference between me and Rohan Krishnamurthy (besides his stellar playing and my lack there of), is that he isn't afraid to take chances. Some of it is personal choice also, I just don't really want to mix Carnatic music with Western Music.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 16 Apr 2008, 19:29

MK,

Thanks for that candid answer - I guess it is different strokes for different people! You do not have to be another Rohan! You can be good in your own way!

That being said, it is interesting to understand why things are different - a combination of the person, the place, and circumstances, I guess. We have refused to take our daughter's friends to her dance class (because we are certain that they will be disruptive, not because we have any desire to make it a secret cult!) - and the requests come after they have seen her perform somewhere - school or elsewhere - and think it is very 'cool'. Needless to say, this kind of peer appreciation (uninformed as it is) is several orders magnitude more rewarding and motivating to her than any amount of appreciation from a more knowledgeable, albeit, Indian crowd (one of the many times I wonder if we are chopped liver)!

skandyhere · Post by **skandyhere** » 16 Apr 2008, 19:51

My opinion on this rather very subjective issue, is that there's not as much a difference between the American and Indian contexts, as is being made out. Even in India, barring very few exceptions, there are hardly any 'co-rasikas' for the average kid of this day. Carnatic is supposed to be 'weird, esoteric, old-fashioned' and the giggles that typically follow an attempt of a kid to sing a krithi very much resemble those that you'd probably encounter in America. Maybe I'm being too simplistic, but I think the problem is common everywhere - one of how to develop an appreciation for a great art form that has definitely and most unfortunately become 'uncool'.

Following mkid's lead, I would like to mention my experience, being a very recent rasika at the age of 25. I come from a typical family of understanding parents whose efforts at having me appreciate Carnatic have been as non-intrusive as possible.

Although my formal classes never really took off with any intensity due to several factors including location (not the least of which was, of course, my own tepid response to Carnatic), the single biggest thing responsible for my new-found passion is the constant background of playing Carnatic around the house since I was a little kid. What seemed to be nothing more than my parents' interest back then, has suddenly aroused nostalgia and a sense of belonging now, when I'm living away from home.

All the listening has subconsciously made me relate Carnatic to home and family - establishing an emotional connectivity, which naturally kicked into consciousness only after I had to live away. The point of this ramble is that exposure to music at home in my personal experience is instrumental to having your kid accept it as something of his own. I'm only putting my random thoughts in print, and am not sure if it's successful in putting across a point.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 16 Apr 2008, 20:01

Suji,
You said it so well. Smart as you are, you brought in the vital point about
the parents getting interested in the music their children are learning at school and elsewhere. As in your case, for the parents to learn a few things outside of their own culture is even better. It makes the child happy too to see that music is music, east or west and there is no compartmentalization of their interests...

shishya · Post by **shishya** » 16 Apr 2008, 20:09

skandyhere,

Your observations have more weight than mine because theya re more recent but I thought with recent media advances, things have changed in India as regards to carnatic music. I certainly felt like the nerd in the crowd because I used to learn music and sing while in school and college in India. It was not until grad school in India that I was comfortable with the fact. By then I think I came out of that shell. Now I am not familiar with the scene in India first hand but a lot of my relatives tell me that classical music has caught on pretty well and is getting more of the attention that it deserves.

rajeeram · Post by **rajeeram** » 16 Apr 2008, 20:17

With so many of us here being parents of young children, this indeed is an interesting thread.

As I read somewhere, it is always a tight rope walk between stress and strain when it comes to pushing kids into any art/sport. As a parent , one needs to definitely stress to a child the supreme importance of practice but back off if the child is getting strained in the process. Easier said than done.

As many of you here, I cannot imagine a life without carnatic music. So it's very natural for my 5 year old son to be constantly exposed to music, be it in the car, at bed time, at concerts, at family get-togethers.

Just sharing some things that have caught my son's fancy. When he hears a neraval, say a malayamarutham neraval by Sanjay, which he has heard me appreciate with a sabash before, he invariably remembers it the next time we play it and says, "Amma, your favorite place" and it pleases me no end. So I have made it a habit of pointedlty appreciating some places in alapana/song/swaram which I enjoy the most.

Our friend gifted us with the the DVD, 'Arar Asaipadar' of Sanjay's music and my son has been transfixed by the movie. He says he wants to be Sanjay and I tell him it will take 20 years of diligent practice to get there;-) Also since he tends to look up at artists,we have promised him to get an autograph book and get a picture with Sanjay when he visits in summer. I think making him a fan/rasika will take us half the way in getting him interested deeply. Idols/Heroes are definitely part of my arsenal as a parent:) So Sanjay's and Chess Anand's pictures can be next to Spiderman and Lighting McQueen posters on the wall:)

And Youtube is a big help. I show him all the Isai Mazhalai videos (he especially digs the Pibare Ramarasam sung by Erode Anantharaman) and his other favorites like Ranjani Gayathri singing Rangapuravihara.

Also the above should not give you the impression that he is self-motivated when it comes to music practice. It's next to impossible to get him to sit down still for 10 minutes. He argues with me already, saying he likes to listen but not sing etc. He is only 5, so I let him be.
And then I remember the verse that my mother always quotes from Kahlil Gibran that begins with "Your children are not your children" and ends with this.

You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.
The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite, and He bends you with His might that His arrows may go swift and far.
Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
For even as he loves the arrow that flies, so He loves also the bow that is stable.

rajeeram · Post by **rajeeram** » 16 Apr 2008, 20:22

And I have had a very similar experience to Shishya's when it comes to Carnatic Music at school. When I made a Diwali presentation at my son's pre-school, I sang a bhajan, "Narahari Deva Janardhana' and every time I go to volunteer, his teacher requests me to sing and I have sung a thillana, Kuraiyondrum illai, Bho Shambo etc. The kids listen keenly, but my son refuses to sing the small bhajans he knows saying they are "Indian" and his friends will not like it.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 16 Apr 2008, 20:33

Indeed a very interesting and very informative thread. My daughter (7) has been exposed to a lot of CM since birth and she has grown "familiar and comfortable" to it at this point (of course it is not that easy getting her to practice - there are good days and tough days). She also sees other older Indian kids excel in CM, and so in general doesnt feel the aspects of Indian culture odd. At this points, while she has some non-Indian friends, her peer group is largely Indian - and those kids who do music and/or dance. In fact, I think she already knows that there are two separate aspects - the Indian part which she shares with the Indian community, and the non-Indian part which she shares with her school friends and neighbors.

BUT she is only 7.. I know she will get to a point where more of her "influencing" friends would be non-Indian, and I know she may find it more odd. I have seen this happen to kids in the past - although I also think that the Indian community in the US was "different" then - it is stronger now (very strong in large cities like the one I am in), and I sense two contrasting aspects to it. Sometimes it seems the community is strong, more bold and open about displaying its characteristics, although somehow isolated. But other times I do think that they are not as isolated as they used to be say 10-15 years ago when they were smaller.

Anyway this "my indianness is different from my friends" would be a phase which probably lasts through mid-teens for most kids - after that not only they are comfortable about their "Indianness", they accept it and become proud of it (suddenly many aspects of it become cool). W.r.t my daughter, I do have some concerns at this point, that her exposure to western stuff (in terms of music) is sort of at a minimum. I agree with Ravi that it is important to maintain a balance.

But on a lighter note, if your kid is young enough, perhaps you can pull the trick Ramki and Vidya pulled off with that Dikshitar krithi

? Make the artist as "Hillary Duff" (but change genre to Pop) and play it on a iPOD. Now suddenly CM becomes like like - way way cool!

Arun

sampoorna · Post by **sampoorna** » 16 Apr 2008, 20:58

Also the above should not give you the impression that he is self-motivated when it comes to music practice. It's next to impossible to get him to sit down still for 10 minutes. He argues with me already, saying he likes to listen but not sing etc. He is only 5, so I let him be.

This feels like my daughter

. Regarding the western and carnatic music, my daughter's violin teacher has offered to notate GNB's nottu swaram (G, MG RG; P, R, G,; S, ,, ,,

. This happened when my daughter was trying out the notes and she (teacher) said she thought it sounded nice. So we sang the swaram to her and she offered to teach it to her on the violin. I hope these small acts of kindness help my daughter through the WM/CM divide.

Although my formal classes never really took off with any intensity due to several factors including location (not the least of which was, of course, my own tepid response to Carnatic), the single biggest thing responsible for my new-found passion is the constant background of playing Carnatic around the house since I was a little kid. What seemed to be nothing more than my parents' interest back then, has suddenly aroused nostalgia and a sense of belonging now, when I'm living away from home.

I think this association of 'home' and CM and the nostalgia is quite an important point - especially if 'home' is associated with 'happy & carefree feelings' and CM was a big part of home. Nice.

Regards,

Sampoorna

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 16 Apr 2008, 21:07

But on a lighter note, if your kid is young enough, perhaps you can pull the trick Ramki and Vidya pulled off with that Dikshitar krithi ? Make the artist as "Hillary Duff" (but change genre to Pop) and play it on a iPOD. Now suddenly CM becomes like like - way way cool!

That is funny!
something more funny from my end is-
When I was asked if Costco sold me the iPod with Indain music in it. And I said.yes!

rajeeram · Post by **rajeeram** » 16 Apr 2008, 21:23

Suji Ram, let me go to Costco and check out whether they have IPods with "Indian music" from the 50's and 60's:) I would pay an arm and a leg for that.

Here's my son's joke.
I am chopping vegetables in the kitchen. He comes around and asks, "Amma, are you chopping veggies?". I say, "Yes, of course I am.
He goes, "But I can mishra chop vegetables" and gives me one of his wide grins:)

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 16 Apr 2008, 22:05

Great going! And I marvel at you young parents with all your imaginative ways which seem to be working wonderfully . If there are moments when you think it is hard enough to bring up children, let alone inculcate in them a love for CM, think of us who longed for live concerts and tried to describe everything indian to the children who felt India was a far off land from which their parents came and the stories they told were not any different from the exotic tales they read in story books! One got tired explaining every little thing in the stories about home because they had no clue whatsoever!
We did not enroll them in a dozen after-school activities and life was not hectic. I volunteered in the library and was a room mother. For several years, when a particular grade studied India, I would be asked to speak. Since the children knew me from the library, they welcomed me eagerly. Folks, rewind the tape to the late sixties, and the seventies

rajeeram · Post by **rajeeram** » 16 Apr 2008, 22:21

Arasi Madam,
Absolutely, you all were pioneers. I always wonder whether I would have survived in the 60's or 70's America. We are so used to our basement gollus, Diwali parties, Holi get-togethers, Independance day festivals etc. We defintely have it easy compared to your experience in exposing all things Indian to our kids. In most big cities, one can find an Indian social network and associated activities. The situation now is akin to the joke, you put two Indians together there are 3 organizations, one for each of them and one for both of them together:)

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 16 Apr 2008, 22:30

My son tells me "when you went up the hill, it was uphill and when you went down the hill, it was still uphill" and he keeps laughing and smiling!

fuddyduddy · Post by **fuddyduddy** » 16 Apr 2008, 23:31

great going everybody... thanks for all the feedback. appreciate all the comments and ideas... (and jokes).

manvantara · Post by **manvantara** » 17 Apr 2008, 00:37

Nice to hear back from so many rasikas, particularly parents of little children.

Also, great to hear from mridangamkid - a voice from the "other side", so to say. I get the message - expose your child to CM and leave it up to him to choose it or not. Need to remember this.

carnaticpriya - what was the suggestion about concerts at home? What is the format?

I think arasi hit the nail right on with: "Your roots are in India, theirs here. Yet, the expressions of India are theirs through you the parents, relatives and indian friends.. While you learn to be part of the mainstream, they have a more difficult task in being part of a culture which is so far away."

I think that has been the on-going discussion in our home (and I bet many other immigrants have had such discussions).
While my husband feels that I am a bit too eager regarding carnatic music, he has his own worries - he wants our son to speak fluently in Tamizh and to that end, he has been working hard, ironing out all the English words that have crept into even ordinary, every-day sentences!
The "culture that is so far away" needs to be brought home.

It is heartening to hear about children raised in the US who are making a mark in the classical music/dance field:
Mythili Prakash (Bharatanatyam)
Rohan, Rajna, Athrey(mridangam)
Sowmya Joisa (full time volunteer for Samskrita Bharati), etc.

sridevi · Post by **sridevi** » 17 Apr 2008, 01:42

To add to the list of american bred CM artistes we have
Hemmige Srivatsan and his siblings
HIs wife subhapriya and her sisters
They have spent most of their formative years here in the US but one could never ever tell.

To add to all your comments, it is easier to expose your child to CM ( or any art form) if both parents appreciate, be it one more than the other. But if there is a disconnect there then it is up to the personality of the child.
My mother is a veena artiste. My father was unresponsive to music. While he did not stand in her way his sangeetha gnaanam started and ended with recognising "nagumomu " and "endaro mahanubhavulu". I have taken up music ( more seriously after leaving home ) and my brother , while he has a ear for music , cannot sit through an entire 3 hr concert , but is slightly more aware of krithis/composers etc.
I am also in a similar situation with my child. My husband would rather not listen to CM and I have no intentions of force feeding it. So when we are all together it is usually light / film music ( if any music at all ) . My son has a great ear for music but is restless when it comes to lessons and practice. He joins my students for some children's music programs here and there but that is more because he likes the attention he gets and also he knows that it makes me happy. He is at home when I teach his friends and it reaches his ears. I used to force him to sit in the class but gave up when it got stressful for me, him and the other kids.
Some day , he may start enjoying music, may start playing an instrument , or singing too. I am not holding my breath. But I will continue to have lessons at home, practice while he is at home and listen to music with him in the car. It is up to him to discover the joy of listening to music, the sheer pleasure in learning a new krithi and singing it etc.

manvantara · Post by **manvantara** » 17 Apr 2008, 02:08

To add to the list: Prasant Radhakrishnan (saxophone) (www.prasantmusic.com)