Artisites and Decorum

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 22 Mar 2008, 11:10

avar avar deivam avarukku--
rasikattanam maTTUmE namakku

Very nicely put.

Even at the risk being misunderstood, I may humbly state, that the kind of turning blind eye by the rasikas to the weaknesses of an artists does more harm to the artist in the long run. It is rather selfish, to put it mildly, to get what the artist can offer, and condemn him for life.

Let us not be only rasikas but also a good friend to the artist to wish him best of music and life.
Let us not be mute witness to the ruin of the artist - he is not banana peel, the pulp of which has been consumed by the rasikas.

A friend in need is a friend indeed. From that angle, unless the artist is nAdOpasaka, the artist needs rasikas more.

PS : A friend is a confidant - he does not exploit what he knows.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 22 Mar 2008, 13:46

tilt wrote:Question: What makes carnatic musicians different from an other type of entertainer,

tilt... Nice post! I agree with many of your sentiments. However you ask a very interesting question:

I think carnatic musicians are different from other types of entertainers - because their primary goal is not entertainment. I don't know if you had an opportunity to read Sanjay;s interview (ably translated by arasi) which was discussed here some time back but his thrust was (i am paraphrasing) pleasing the audience was not the primary purpsose of his performances.

In a way carnatic musicians are custodians and evangelists of traditional Indian culture and its values.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 22 Mar 2008, 15:53

I think alcohol must be better than I think, such poetry and philosophy has been inspired by it here!

I have no name
I am as fresh breeze of the mountains... ... ...

Thank you for that; it is one of the most beautiful things I have ever read

that the kind of turning blind eye by the rasikas to the weaknesses of an artists does more harm to the artist in the long run.

Are you the parent then? Even the brother, the friend, may give advice... the rasika?

But the rasika is, of course, the customer. He can take his custom elsewhere.

On another tack...

Discipline has been mentioned, as if the drinker can have none.

This is not the case: it does not take discipline not to drink, it takes discipline to stop drinking.

The musician may practice every day; does a day off mean that he has no disciple?

vainika · Post by **vainika** » 22 Mar 2008, 16:01

nick H wrote:Disciple has been mentioned, as if the drinker can have none.
The musician may practice every day; does a day off mean that he has no disciple?

<confused> did you mean discipline? </confused>

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 22 Mar 2008, 16:59

Yes, of course. I'll edit <Blush>

Thanks.

Although, the consumption of alcohol where youngsters are involved, is a matter I have much stricter views about, as expressed on another thread, and really nothing to do with an artists relaxation time.

vainika · Post by **vainika** » 22 Mar 2008, 17:58

coolkarni wrote:Just have to walk to one of the dimly lit bylanes, light a cigarette , cup it in the hand to ensure the lips dont touch it, take a few furtive puffs and BE SEEN BY THE NEIGHBOUR MAMI who has come to the Grocery next door , for a late night top up of Coffee Powder.

ROTFL at this image of Cool-ji. I can totally relate! There was this instance, over a decade ago, when I happened to attend a Tamil cultural event in the US city where I then lived, accompanied by two of my graduate student colleagues/friends who were non-Indian and female. The desi grapevine instantly went on red alert, and the nalla-paiyyan image that I had assiduously cultivated - through involvement in tyAgarAja ArAdhana, guruguhAnjali, and other sundry CM activities - was all but demolished by the local mAmiarchy in one fell swoop.

chalanata · Post by **chalanata** » 22 Mar 2008, 19:14

coolkarni wrote:That is my simple liberal philosophy.I think less of my mean teetotaller friends/contacts than my licentious good hearted ones.

A good sprinkling of American Indians who come home do invite me for a drink which I have always refused.Some have left bottles which we, as a family ,we drain it down the bathroom outlet

Next time please save the bottles for the good hearted friends.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 22 Mar 2008, 19:31

PS : VGVindan wrote :

A friend is a confidant - he does not exploit what he knows

Hi VGVindan, I understand that you compare rasikas as wellwishers and friends of artistes.

Hence I did not exploit neither the artiste nor the concert.

The reason Y , As COOLKARNIJI had quiped earlier, i did not mention the concert in detail nor the venue lest someone who attended the concert might also come to know.

It is nice to see that the thread that I have started has taken a mammoth shape and goes like a SUNTV mega serial. thanks for all your inputs.

I am busy for the past few days. Well I want to write my opinion too. gimme 2 days.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 22 Mar 2008, 19:46

Ramki,
This is why I am not comfortable when someone calls me mAmi, I suppose!

Ganesh_mourthy,
We appreciate you for not mentioning names. Objectivity is one of the things we strive for on the forum.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 22 Mar 2008, 20:50

of course Arasi I think everyone shoudl be careful about it and actually our intention is not to defame anyone.

Alas, methinks Arasi and Coolkarniji are sort of pro Anarchy . My debate is to start with coolkarni ji and Arasi in 3 days. Let me know who is on my side and who is on the otherside.

I think any celebrity is open to allegations and ridicule since they carry some responsibility and it is healthy too but Coolji and Arasi thinks that we have nothing to discuss since it is their own prerogative.

VGVindan where do you stand?

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 22 Mar 2008, 20:56

It is not that I am fighting shy, i am as busy as a bee right now. And I am out of sorts too, sudden change of weather. I am managing with Shukku kashayam and not anything else

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 22 Mar 2008, 21:16

ganesh,
Are you drawing battle lines or what? - jokingly, of course.
I have high regard for the views of Cool and Arasi. Our view points may differ, but intent is not.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 22 Mar 2008, 21:43

no not a battle line but a healthy debate. I too have regard for them who makes our forum really interesting.
Hope this forum is open for healthy debates. and this is not a personal war and I know neither of them personally except from this forum

tilt · Post by **tilt** » 23 Mar 2008, 02:21

sureshvv wrote:
tilt wrote:Question: What makes carnatic musicians different from an other type of entertainer,
*snip*

I think carnatic musicians are different from other types of entertainers - because their primary goal is not entertainment. *snip* pleasing the audience was not the primary purpsose of his performances.

In a way carnatic musicians are custodians and evangelists of traditional Indian culture and its values.

Thanks for the response Suresh.

I agree that pleasing the audience is not the primary purpose of his performance. My philosophy is the same. When I perform, I do it for me and not for the audience. I need to be pleased, to be impressed (yes, I do impress myself quite often

) and I do it for my own enjoyment. If I am able to succeed in that, it so happens that the audience is also pleased and I am grateful for that side-effect.

Now, at the risk of incurring the wrath of the senior members of this thread and of taking the thread off-topic I shall address the other issue you brought up in response to my question:

As to being custodians and evangelists of traditional Indian culture and values, I am afraid that is a totally different can of worms, worthy of a thread in itself. The culture and values that we claim to be ours unfortunately is not so traditional. This "morality" is quite recent (in the big scheme of things). Do not forget that our myths are full of our gods getting drunk on "amrutham" and cavorting with "apsaras" and stuff.

Hell, we even flirted with homosexuality and gay marriage (not to mention Vishnu's cross-dressing) in the story of Lord Ayyappan, with Shiva and Vishnu having sex and miraculously Ayyappan was brought into existence. I even remember reading that we used to be omnivorous until Agastya famously ate his son Nala by mistake and had to teach him the manthram of bringing people back from the dead and therefore famously declared that Brahimins shall no longer eat meat. Pretty selfish I must say

Just because he did not watch what he ate we all get penalised

Therefore, I am not so sure that our "traditional" culture was indeed as moral as we here claim it to be. Remember that it is we who wrote the definitive book on sex in all its deviant forms - Kamasutra. And now we claim to be oh-so-holy and chaste.

I am sure all of you will consider me a blasphemer to talk like this. I do not consider myself so. I do believe in God, I light the lamp every day, I go to the temple whenever I can, and I also drink and smoke and I used to smoke pot when I was younger and am not exactly inexperienced when it comes to women.

At the same time I also believe in speaking the truth even if it is detrimental to me, I believe in helping people to the best of my ability, I treat people well, I respect people irrespective of age or gender, I do not cheat on anything and I believe in being fair. Plus, I do not mince words, I call a spade a spade without couching it in flowery language.

Cheers

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 23 Mar 2008, 04:54

Tilt,
Senior members are not given to wrath as a rule here!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 23 Mar 2008, 05:07

And our senior members do not walk with a tilt either

(j/k)

Contrary to some perceptions, CM rasikas have been quite tolerant of the artists' peccadillos. I do not want to name names, but atleast the top tier ones have been given a fair hearing by the audiences. There have been some wide open secrets about such things but rasikas did not withdraw their support. So, I would say, for the most part, they have shown the maturity to distinguish between high art and the rather common personal little sins and such slight offenses.

Without implying at all that all artists are culpable, across cultures, art and such peccadillos somehow seem to find each other. I do not really know percentage wise if the prevalence is higher in music and art communities or not. If someone has some stats on that, it will be good to know.

tilt · Post by **tilt** » 23 Mar 2008, 05:18

Thanks Arasi. And thanks to you too VK.

VK, your response indicates that I have not made my point clearly enough. My point is not that rasikas have not been able to distinguish between the high art and the personal little sins and offences, my point is that they are not sins or offences in the first place, therefore the need to distinguish between them and art is moot.

BTW, VK is one of the names I would have chosen for my non-existent daughter

, love that name.

Cheers

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 23 Mar 2008, 06:24

Not VK! Just joking. I know, you meant Vasanthakokilam. By the way, he chose that name because he also likes the music of the vocalist who went by that name...

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 23 Mar 2008, 06:39

Alas, methinks Arasi and Coolkarniji are sort of pro Anarchy .

I sincerely wish you have done your homework well.For the debate.
As far as VGV and myself are concerned , we both are capable of holding contradicting opinions , balance them and make personal decisions.So matter how rowdy the discussions get here , you can be at ease.

The value of passion ,like fire, is judged by the amount of warmth and light it creates. Fanatics, like forest fires ,burn bright ,but destroy all in their path that is tender and green.
To be useful, fire must be confined. To live passionately, we must develop discipline. To love powerfully, we must forge bonds of commitment.
Passion is inseparable from compassion

My equations with VGV (and the rest of you all, for that matter) is passionate in this sense.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 23 Mar 2008, 07:34

my point is that they are not sins or offences in the first place, therefore the need to distinguish between them and art is moot.

tilt, I did get the point on those things about your personal beliefs and takes on things. What I am saying is, even with the more culturally conservative populace that makes up a good chunk of CM rasikas, they have shown that distinction over the past several decades.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 23 Mar 2008, 07:51

By the way, he chose that name because he also likes the music of the vocalist who went by that name...

True.

And as you may recall, in another discussion a while back, it so turns out that specific spring bird known for making interesting sounds for a targeted purpose is a male.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 23 Mar 2008, 09:38

Well, you can be proud as a peacock too, if you like. There! More glorious feathers for a man's cap

tilt · Post by **tilt** » 23 Mar 2008, 10:13

vasanthakokilam wrote:
my point is that they are not sins or offences in the first place, therefore the need to distinguish between them and art is moot.
tilt, I did get the point on those things about your personal beliefs and takes on things. What I am saying is, even with the more culturally conservative populace that makes up a good chunk of CM rasikas, they have shown that distinction over the past several decades.

Thanks VK, I now get it

My wife always says I don't know when to shut up

I now realise she's right

Cheers

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 23 Mar 2008, 11:46

Shall we say then 'Swatantra' gives you the freedom to be yourself

vk,
I have been pondering as to how to respond to your 'cryptic' query. In my view the word 'freedom' carries an element of licence - whim.

The Gitacharya states -

tasmad-asaktaH satataM kAryaM karma samAcara |
asaktO hi-Acaran karma param-ApnOti pUruSaH || III.18 ||

"Therefore, do thou always perform actions which are obligatory, without attachment; by performing action without attachment, one attains to the highest."
(Translation by Swamy Swarupananda)

IMHO, only those who are 'unattached' have true 'freedom' - 'sva-tantra'.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 23 Mar 2008, 11:54

tilt,
In true terms Buddha is a Nastik because he did not believe the authority of Vedas. I am left wondering as to what kind of Super Sankaracharya he would have been if he had been exposed to the true Indian Wisdom of Upanishads. On the other hand, his father stymied his growth by deliberately over-protecting him - because it was foretold that his son would become sannyasi.

But that is another advantage too, that we could have a person like Buddha who would shatter the traditional fetters and declare that the truth is not bound by HOLY BOOKs.

Similarly, you also seem to be exposed to all sorts of literature other than the true wisdom of this great land. I also wish that you become another Buddha.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 23 Mar 2008, 12:35

VGV, understood. Any attachment to outside things ( glory, praise, salary etc. ) by definition makes you dependent on others. So getting rid of the attachment gets you closer to svatantra.

Originally, I was focussing on what you said regarding 'self regulation'. When someone regulates themselves without being to told to do so by others, he/she is not answerable to others whether they regulated the right amount etc. And they do not have to be concerned about if they have satisfied others wishes. I agree that freedom in the normal use of the word has the implication of 'license', but seem to be OK when seen in the context of 'self regulation'. I guess it is not freedom to do anything one wants but rather freedom from others. May be I am twisting the meaning and shaping it in some odd ways...

Back to attachment, we are all so inter-dependent with others in the modern world. So, we are all not just 'paratantra' but we are "whatever the word is for 'inter-dependent with each other'". So true svatantra in that sense should have been getting harder and harder to achieve. It is not just sufficient to do your obligatory duties without attaching to the results since that only eliminates the one way dependency. There are several arrows pointing towards you from others and that I would think would be a much tougher thing to overcome to achieve true svatantra. These are just a few thoughts that came to me after reading your post, not any carefully considered opinions.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 23 Mar 2008, 12:58

...edited and removed

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 23 Mar 2008, 13:11

Coolkarni, alcohol has destroyed innumerable lives. And been a curse for many families that have had to live with the plague. It is fun to write jokes on the subject, but when you consider the negative impact it's had on human beings, maybe it's not so much fun any more.

gobilalitha · Post by **gobilalitha** » 23 Mar 2008, 13:13

A doctor told his patient, you must at once refrain from alcohol,smoking, tasty food with high cholestrol,,to live long. the patient retorted ;then why should I live? gobilalitha

money · Post by **money** » 23 Mar 2008, 14:12

Ultra puritanism expected from a religious teacher or a preacher should not be demanded from a musician. It is a profession for them chosen may be by chance than rather than by choice. In a psuedo conservative society which expects everyone other than themselves to conform, the artistes like so many others are forced to put on a uniform of prudishness as they may otherwise be forced out of business. Atleast in the In the privacy of their house or rooms they should be allowed to be themselves.

Bhakthi is a purely personal business.Our scriptures are full of anecdotes of how the genuine bhakta is found in most unlikely of places and not necessarily in the blindly tradition bound settings.
We have come to the conclusion that it is summer because we have seen one swallow.

To paint every artiste as immersed in revelry and fun is neither a fact nor just. For every artiste indulging himself there are hundreds who are pure souls and thousands who cant afford a binge like the one described by GM even if they wanted it.

Further we do not know if it was in celebration of a grand concert that the party was held and they went overboard.Maybe they tried to drown their miseries and pains in good spirits.The concerned artiste may not be finding their music as intoxicating as the rasikas find it, and needs to take the help of other things in life to drown their sorrow.

This said I think the experience with one artiste is being generalised and all artistes tarnished with the same brush.Some of them do meet the exacting expectations of the VGVs and they do not shout aloud about it.

In a society getting increasingly westernised in attitude and dress we must be thankful for the conforming of the artistes onstage to traditional attire of freshly ironed veshti and angavastaram , with the occasional tuft thrown in.Their creativity will be no less if they choose to sing in jeans and banians.Once not long ago a tuft was the norm for a cm performer.Today we accept a crew cut,a dhoni cut and also a bob cut. Who knows soon we may need to accept jeans and trousers on stage, for music is in the voice and fingers and not in the dress.The bhava and bhakti is in the heart and not in the lyrics alone.Not every conformer has a heart.

Why run after a poor fellow who must have been running away from misery of some kind.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 23 Mar 2008, 16:13

ragam-thalam-
yeah
I Understand have edited and removed my post .
My apologies for being so insensitive

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 23 Mar 2008, 18:35

vk,
I fully agree with your view about 'interdependence'.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 23 Mar 2008, 18:53

and needs to take the help of other things in life to drown their sorrow.

I suppose you don't mind if they did drugs either, so long as it's in the privacy of their home/hotel room.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 23 Mar 2008, 20:25

Alcohol, tobacco... among the world's most harmful and addictive drugs.

Paan, betel, arreca nut (and tobacco again)... carcinogenic. unhygenic.

doing drugs, eh?

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 23 Mar 2008, 21:20

Money,
You bring the discussion down to ground after our flying around with ideas, ideals and philosophy. You are right. The incident is about a group of people who are reported to have behaved without decorum, away from where the performance took place. Even assuming the incident took place exactly as it was stated (without any embellishments by the hotel staff), it does not apply to ALL performers. If one is given to unacceptable social behavior, another (a pious one at that) might be greedy, jealous or too ambitious for his own good. As VK pointed out, this is not something new in the history of CM.
Cool pointed out earlier that not many rasikAs can qualify to be rasikAs if the same scrutiny is applied to them.
With such stringent norms, we may end up being the losers when it comes to our enjoying CM.
Should our expectations be so high that we expect the exponents of music to sing with nearly the same intensity of bhakti as tyAgarAjA? An arcakA in the temple to intone praises of the gods with the same fervor of the ancients who wrought them?
Yes, we live in an age which is evolving and is trying to find its own identity. Things have been happening so fast the past decade or so, as never before--cultural values and other values too are influenced by these rapid changes. To see CM surviving amidst all this, and on top of it, finding the younger generation showing such interest in it--is gift enough for me.
I don't know about others. As far as I am concerned, while listening to good concerts, I feel enriched and elevated. I don't deny that I am entertained as well.
We now come to the ratio of the performer's contribution in a concert and that of the rasikAs. Who can gauge it, as varied as we are? I draw a blank. So would many others, I assume...

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 24 Mar 2008, 00:39

We don't even know that they acted without decorum. Just that they drank, allegedly a lot.

I've already said that it is possible to drink without behaving like an English football yob.

(Now there's a mental picture... carnatic fans acting like football fans).

If ever I become terminally ill with a painful disease, I shall take to opium. People may moralise all they wish, but this method of ending my days in relative comfort will certainly not lead to loud or offensive behaviour.

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 24 Mar 2008, 02:02

Nick,

In all probability the drinking and the acting without decorum are held to be one and the same.

Just ask.

vainika · Post by **vainika** » 24 Mar 2008, 07:30

Is there a Tamil (or other Indian language) word whose meaning approximates 'decorum'?

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 24 Mar 2008, 07:32

srkris wrote:Nick,

In all probability the drinking and the acting without decorum are held to be one and the same.

Just ask.

You are right, I'm sure; one argument being that that is not at all the case!

To me, taking paan on-stage is a breach of decorum. Very bad example to youngsters, and yet nobody complains about that.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 24 Mar 2008, 07:40

So was the addiction to snuffing tobacco powder. We are selective in our favoring and opposing certain habits. Who are we to judge the musicians when each one of us have some imperfection or other. When we point one finger, three others are pointing at self. How each one of us see is relative and dynamic.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 24 Mar 2008, 08:04

vainika,
paNbu in tamizh and sabhyatA, sabhyatE in other languages come to mind.

tilt · Post by **tilt** » 24 Mar 2008, 08:07

VK RAMAN wrote:So was the addiction to snuffing tobacco powder. We are selective in our favoring and opposing certain habits. Who are we to judge the musicians when each one of us have some imperfection or other. When we point one finger, three others are pointing at self. How each one of us see is relative and dynamic.

Good point Raman. I would even go one step further and say that Right & Wrong, Good and Bad themselves are relative and not absolute.

Cheers

tilt · Post by **tilt** » 24 Mar 2008, 08:12

arasi wrote:vainika,
paNbu in tamizh and sabhyatA, sabhyatE in other languages come to mind.

I am not very knowledgeable about Tamil (it is my mother-tongue but I never studied it formally and I started speaking it only when I was around 17 years of age, till then I only spoke English), but wouldn't "ingeetham" be a better word for decorum than "paNbu"? Decorum deals with appropriateness of behaviour at appropriate times whereas "paNbu" (AFAIK) deals more with humility or respect or respectful behaviour at all times.

Cheers

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 24 Mar 2008, 08:15

tilt wrote:[but wouldn't "ingeetham" be a better word for decorum than "paNbu"?

And can we PLEASE close the curtains on this subject with OVK's words:

'ing(k)itam enrAlE enna vilai yenru kETpAr aDI inda mannar!'

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 24 Mar 2008, 08:53

kiLik kaNNi:
paNbu enRum mANbu enRum,
ingidam enRum innum palavum
Seppit tirivAraDI kiLiyE--mangaLam
pADat teriyAraDi.

Ravi, 'you need another pair of hands to bring down the curtains?

Subham!

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 24 Mar 2008, 13:15

I remember this phrase-probably from some Tamil film-

'sageetham therinda aLaviRku ingitham theriyavillaiyE'

Does it sum up the whole situation?

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 24 Mar 2008, 15:58

http://books.google.co.in/books?hl=en&i ... bM#PPP1,M1

Art and Morality" is a collection of groundbreaking new papers on the theme of aesthetics and ethics, and the link between the two subjects. A group of world-class contributors tackle the important question that arise...

THE FUNCTION OF ART: ART AND MORALITY
http://www.globusz.com/ebooks/Aesthetics/00000025.htm

Amen.
Sd.
Cool Anarchist

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 24 Mar 2008, 16:21

I thought a group of world-class contributors (us) just did tackle some of those questions --- and showed how very different are our views and attitudes!

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 24 Mar 2008, 17:00

and we are close to hitting a century!

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 24 Mar 2008, 17:10

nick,
I rather feel uneasy about your use of the word 'custom'. Yourself being an artist, do you really feel so or is it an inadvertence?