gurudhakshana and protocols.

sureshjm · Post by **sureshjm** » 05 Mar 2008, 09:19

Hi I am new to chennai .I have learnt vocal for few years and now coming under the tutelage of a renowned Vocalist in chennai. wht is the usual procedure for Guru Dakshana. A silver plate with fruits and 101 Rs? this is the usual procedure , told my friend. Throw some light friends. I know it is completely elective. Yet....the norms in Chennai .... ?

sureshjm · Post by **sureshjm** » 05 Mar 2008, 10:43

hi friends and forumites. some tips for the first day please.

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 05 Mar 2008, 11:07

That is fine.. and you can take back the silver plate too , unless you want to gift that to your Guru. The choice is entirely yours.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 05 Mar 2008, 13:13

Oops how can I ask back the plate. I cringe even to think of it. ????

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 05 Mar 2008, 13:14

No problem with the silver plate let him have it. but then prostrating and all that. there should be so much of formalities.

sureshjm · Post by **sureshjm** » 05 Mar 2008, 13:17

Hi Ganesh , are yo uin the same situation as I am ? the silver plate is not a big issue. but formalities yes.

gobilalitha · Post by **gobilalitha** » 05 Mar 2008, 13:36

excuse me, as an elderly man, I feel that you should not have discussed this in a public forum.did you for a minute thimk f what the guru will think if he comes to know about it.you coul dhave discreetly asked somebody about it. I am sorry if I have sounded rude gobilalitha

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 05 Mar 2008, 13:38

gobilalitha, how can you be so rude??

sureshjm · Post by **sureshjm** » 05 Mar 2008, 14:11

Sorry Gopilatha, this is gross misinterpretation.
This is not of any pecuniary issue. Instead just to keep the age old tradition going. I am not discussing anything like fees structure or discussing how much it is worth giving him.
He is already a famous person and has settled with much more than enough fame, status and money.
All that I want to know how it is done what is the respectful way to do it and how .

Hope it is not a right way to just shake hands and start right away. That is unbecoming of our system.
No one loses nor gains but It is only to keep our tradition going.

Is there anything wrong in it , forumites?

mridhangam · Post by **mridhangam** » 05 Mar 2008, 16:24

Suresh there is nothing wrong in your question at all. As a forum where each and every topic under the earth relating to music is discussed the Guru Dakshina is a valid and vital point for every sishya. Right from Yekalaivan we have heard excellent tributes being paid to our gurus by various saints, sages and human beings.

The best thing to do to a guru would be to show the sincerity and purport of your being his student. This is best shown with the level of your eagerness to learn and also with the level of regard/respect that show to the guru by your sophisticated manners.

The guru must feel that you will be a worthy sishya to have. That feeling normally a guru gets at the first few instances (since you said the guru is already very famous it will not be a very difficult process for him in identifying your real worth and merit).

As far as the formalities are concerned you just take lots of fruits, and 101/- and if possible buy good Veshti/uthiriyam and give it in a manner that will make him understand that you are totally surrendering in front of him to guide you through the vast expanse of music.
If i have left out anything i shall give you the details further.

J.Balaji

sureshjm · Post by **sureshjm** » 05 Mar 2008, 17:01

Thanks Mridhangam on your valuable input. I really appreciate it. Lots of fruits really is good as a Dakshana and his health. A complete Satvic food and Idea. thank you .

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 05 Mar 2008, 21:38

I agree with Balaji. I had the fortune of learning Rudram, Chamakam and Sooktam from a Vadyar. Vadyar is financially sound, but when I decided to move back to my family I bought him, Veshti, Uttareeyam, pazham along with a token Guru Dakshina and prostrated before the vadyar. I also did in a different way for my music teacher who was financially in dire need. I paid him Rs.200 per song as bonus. This is our way of thanking and being grateful to individuals who make a difference in our life.

sureshjm · Post by **sureshjm** » 05 Mar 2008, 22:01

VKRAMAN , Uttareeyam what is that ?

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 05 Mar 2008, 22:16

Mel veshti - having leaning to malayalam culture, I may have spelt it differently.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 05 Mar 2008, 22:43

I think it is the same as 'angavastram'....

Sam Swaminathan · Post by **Sam Swaminathan** » 06 Mar 2008, 02:15

My two cents worth....if the teacher is married...it is normal to buy a sari ( meeting your economic situation) and ravikkai bit. For afterall, you are trying to follow the tradition. In the olden days when gurukulavasam was being practised, the wife acted as the sishya's mother during the tenenancy of the tutelege. So, it is imperative that Guru's wife is honoured as well. When you do namaskaram in the first instance, ensure that you do that to both, standing together. And if you have been initiated into the practice, do "abhivatham". You need the blessings of the Guru as well as his family ( I mean the elders).

This is our way of doing it. I am proud that you are showing your maturity in maintaining the remaining few meaningful traditions.

Good luck with your education.

Sam

gobilalitha · Post by **gobilalitha** » 06 Mar 2008, 06:18

sorry, I still maintain it is not an issue for the forum. however, you should see that the guru feels proud of you ,as a sishya.
. good luck

sureshjm · Post by **sureshjm** » 06 Mar 2008, 08:34

Being a good shishya is a different story. The first day pranams and maryadha is what we are discussing gobilatha. Obviously one would not be so interested if he is going to be indifferent later.

But, Sam Swaminathan , sari and ravikkai . ? I am going to a male teacher anyway.

sankirnam · Post by **sankirnam** » 06 Mar 2008, 08:47

Sam is right, that is a good idea, my guru's wife is like another mother to me while I am staying in chennai...

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 06 Mar 2008, 08:53

Gurudakshina .....
Hmm.
Annapurna Devi asked Chaurasia to give a gurudakshina of a guarantee that he will not bring his early learning into play and start from scratch.

Chaurasia gave it by offering to learn left handed instead of the right handed way he had learnt until then.
With a Wrestler Dad breathing down his neck and threatening to disown his son who had chosen such a career (unfit for the son of a male Pahilwan),
It is a classic story for our times.

You will be lucky even if you leave the silver plate behind.
And get the full lesson from your Guru.

On a serious note , Move around with a few other disciples , of any other Guru.You will find that these guidelines on Veshtis , Sarees , Ravikkais will be of little help.For someone who is trying to prise out the unfathomable from the Guru , you will have to give a lot more.The story does not end with just the first day.

Sam Swaminathan · Post by **Sam Swaminathan** » 06 Mar 2008, 09:16

Coolji...a prospective student has to offer absolutely nothing....it is enough that he shows due respect due to a Guru who is going to dispense his immense knowledge to a student who, the Guru hopes, will do justice to the art. The material things are neither expected nor required under any custom. My comments are in the light of actual practice that is followed.

sureshjm · Post by **sureshjm** » 06 Mar 2008, 10:33

Sam Swaminathan , you are right, with a mere veshtis and dakshna he is not goingto b a beneficiary.
but let us not let loose our age old traditions .

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 06 Mar 2008, 15:01

hi sureshjm.

I respect that you are bent on to stick to our tradional system. At the same time take care to focus on your good rendering too. Just imagine, guru dakshana and poor performance, Incongruous , no? Your guru will not be impressed by your Gurudakhshana , but your mental agility and keen interest to learn. So practice all your old lessons and be receptive.
All the best.

kaapi · Post by **kaapi** » 06 Mar 2008, 19:36

I am not sure if by tradition people start with a Guru Dakshina. You can reserve it for the Vijayadasami day also.
However when you finish an appropriate GD has to be offered.

nigamaa · Post by **nigamaa** » 06 Mar 2008, 19:49

hi,
interesting question, I long wondered what these free online teaching institutions like
http://onlinebharatanatyam.com/
http://onlinebharathanatyamacademy.wordpress.com
are entitled to in this respect? Would it be the same as professional pay-to- view institutions?

natasha · Post by **natasha** » 13 Mar 2008, 20:44

what's a ravikkai?

naaree · Post by **naaree** » 13 Mar 2008, 20:53

natasha wrote:what's a ravikkai?

A piece of apparel that covers the torso and is worn in conjunction with the Saaree, by the ladies.

NS

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 13 Mar 2008, 20:54

blouse but in tamil it is called ravikkai

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 13 Mar 2008, 21:21

One went looking for a proper GD
All tips were G, O, O, D.
uttarIyam or vEshTi?
ravikkai or iravikkai with a sAri?
I thought, now that Sruti magazine
Is reinventing itself, it could
Start an Etiquette Column too,
Answering such queries...
Meanwhile, here at rasikas,
We could figure out
What GD one gives when
You make your own CD

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 14 Mar 2008, 00:33

GD in that case will be the legacy you are leaving and emotional satisfaction Guru gets from his/her students. This is true of all gurus; not only music but also all streams of life.

vainika · Post by **vainika** » 14 Mar 2008, 00:35

arasi wrote:One went looking for a proper GD
...

brilliant!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 14 Mar 2008, 03:46

Thanks, vainika. When YOU make that CD, we will be G L A D!

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 14 Mar 2008, 08:05

what is CD?

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 14 Mar 2008, 09:08

compact disc

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 14 Mar 2008, 10:43

That was too G O O D , Arasi

srinivasasarma · Post by **srinivasasarma** » 14 Mar 2008, 11:51

There are only few Gurus, but many are teachers/masters, who teach only for money. 0fcourse these masters also coach extra
hrs for bright dedicated students. If you go to him with a lot of fruits with corresponding weighing silver plate, he will be glad to
receive it - but all depends on how you learn. (You will also make him to expect bigger items. from the next comer )Gopilalitha is correct, check up discretely ! I can say here, just check up his possibility in accepting you, timings, fees structure etc. then go to
him with lots of fruits and token fees. 0nce he is impressed with your learning and you are also happy and comfortable with him,
sky is the limit. There are occasions to offer him bigger gifts. Believe me - there is no limit to give to father, mother and guru.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 14 Mar 2008, 17:45

Arasi, that was nice. What's iravikkai?

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 14 Mar 2008, 18:37

bilahari wrote:Arasi, that was nice. What's iravikkai?

iravikkai is the same as ravikkai; in Tamil no word starts with 'ra'-that's why rAman is 'irAman' and rAmAyaNam is 'irAmAyaNam'

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 14 Mar 2008, 18:57

Punarvasu, I thought the "I" was not pronounced when before the "ra," so was confused.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 14 Mar 2008, 19:52

VKRaman and Srinivasamurthy,
Agreed. The seriousness of the whole discussion triggered the verse (in a lighter vein)...

money · Post by **money** » 18 Mar 2008, 15:01

When one changes guru and joins another one, does one still give GD to all the gurus on Vijayadasami day?

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 19 Mar 2008, 05:38

Being traditional in my thinking, I believe one does not change Guru. Guru knows his limits and constraints and if such a limit and constraint stand in the way of further growth of learning in the disciple, Guru recommends another Guru for higher learning. In that case, the disciple keeps all these Gurus in his heart with reverence and disciple can pay his/her respects on occasions like Vijayadasami which may include a token GD. GD can be in kind or in cash.

Rasikaas · Post by **Rasikaas** » 19 Mar 2008, 15:14

Rasikas.org really has some interesting discussions going on. GD? G for Guru isnt it? Recently VPD has cautioned people using the term GURU so casually. Just letting you guys know.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 19 Mar 2008, 15:26

VK Raman itis not possible nowadays to stick to one gru . unless you make that as your profession. you go to different places to study and work and the situation nwo is diferent. if you want to stick to one guru you never learn unless you live all your life in the same place

money · Post by **money** » 19 Mar 2008, 20:42

I am not sure whether tradition prohibits several gurus.One guru formula applies to most of the parent cum gurus.Due to movements as Ganesh Murthy says,or incompatibility with the gurus or several personal reasons including the guru leaving the students, another guru is a a necessity unless you want to stop learning.
I was wondering how the GD has to work out in such cases.

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 20 Mar 2008, 01:24

All teachers may not fit within the definition of gurus, nor all disciples fit within the definition of sishyas.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 20 Mar 2008, 01:38

Following srkris, here is my two cents on Guru.

Aren't gurus more real than the gods? Basically the guru is a spiritual teacher leading the disciple on the path of "god-realization". In essence, the guru is considered a respected person with saintly qualities who enlightens the mind of his disciple, an educator from whom one receives the initiatory mantra, and one who instructs in rituals and religious ceremonies. The Vishnu Smriti and Manu Smriti regards the Acharya (teacher), along with the mother and the father as the most venerable gurus of an individual. According to Deval Smriti there can be eleven kinds of gurus and according to Nama Chintamani ten. According to his functions he is categorized as rishi, acharyam, upadhya, kulapati or mantravetta.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 20 Mar 2008, 06:03

A friend related an interesting incident. She was a student under a certain guru for a number of years. Incidently she was learning a krithi in Varali when the following incident occurred.

One of her friends was about to commence lessons under the same guru and asked her advice about what fees to give. Innocently, she let her know what dakshinai she gave per class. When the guru heard that she had given advice about his fees he was furious. Needless to say the relationship between guru and sishya became quite strained after this incident.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 20 Mar 2008, 11:52

Money seems to strain a lot of guru/shishya relationships!

Which goes to the point that expecting a music teacher to be a saint may be a little far fetched.

My guruji, who I will call, 'guruji' always, whether, or from whoever, I learn music, told me that in his youth, the student did not even marry without guru's approval as much as parents!

We also have situations these days, such as mine, where the guru is a generation younger than the student. As another adult human being who is also a dear friend, of course we may discuss personal or life issues but he is not my guru in those issues. (Of course, I have learnt a vast amount about the culture in which I now live from him).

Only in music issues do I sit humbly at his feet, and he would have to do something very 'bad' indeed to make any difference at all to my attitude or respect to him as a music teacher.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 20 Mar 2008, 13:11

NIck H . me being inquisitive to knw what YOu are learnign. Vocal?