Recording music lessons

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 27 Feb 2008, 23:54

Just curious.

If you are a student, do you record music lessons? If so, what recorder do you use?

I do record and I find them invaluable (as I cannot remember the subtleties of even the simpler sangatis after class

).

I used to record with an old Sony minidisc recorder which did a fine job, but it broke down. I now use the Olympus DS-30 - and it does a very good job. Like the minidisc, it allows one to "bookmark" various points in a file - and so I can jump quickly to different portions, replay a portion of the file (e.g. a sangati) etc.

Ashwin · Post by **Ashwin** » 28 Feb 2008, 00:28

Hi Arun,

I use a now-discontinued Iriver IFP-99x series mp3 player/recorder. I chose this because it still is one of the few recorders that has a built-in pre-amp for use with external stereo microphones, in addition to a line-in option. I use it with a sony external stereo microphone and the sound quality is absolutely amazing - nothing else has come close. I would buy two more if I could still get my hands on them. The old-generation Creative Nomads were also workhorses in this regard. As for what's available today, I've experimented with a Zoom H2 recorder, which can record up to 4 channels simultaneously and encodes in wave and mp3 of all bit rates. The sound quality is really good. Ive only used it to take air recordings from the stage - Im not sure if it will take input from an external mic.

Ashwin

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 28 Feb 2008, 02:32

Impressive indeed. The DS-30 obviously is quite low-fi compared to all this. It is actually a voice recorder, but I found that for recording music lessons (NOT concerts, or more official recordings), it is surprisingly quite decent.

For music lessons, the ability to index into parts is absolutely crucial for me. It is the single most important feature for me for this kind of use. Does your iriver let you do that?

Arun

fuddyduddy · Post by **fuddyduddy** » 28 Feb 2008, 02:55

I use Olympus too. Its the best with respect to file size when I transfer it to my laptop. I bought something from Sandisk and still evaluating it. I dont think its as easy as the Olympus though.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 28 Feb 2008, 04:40

File size is good only if it comes without compromising quality - but here for Olympus the WMA format does quite well indeed on both sides

Arun

gobilalitha · Post by **gobilalitha** » 28 Feb 2008, 06:26

after a lull, since reaching Chicago, you are in splendid form,thanks. I refer to your posts in various threads today.did you meet my relative Ravi gobilalitha

sankirnam · Post by **sankirnam** » 28 Feb 2008, 06:31

since i had an ipod, i used the italk microphone to record my music classes, amazing quality, even my guru was very impressed!

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 28 Feb 2008, 06:50

I've got an Edirol R-09 (see http://www.edirol.net/products/en/R-09/) and it has amazing clarity (CD quality) and can be used for live recording as well as line recording if you are taking an input from say a audio desk at a major concert.

mri_fan · Post by **mri_fan** » 28 Feb 2008, 07:01

How can I tell if a product can have line recording capabilities...is a mic input enough?

I'm looking at the H2 Ashwin mentioned, and I'm not sure how to tell..would appreciate the help

Thanks

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 28 Feb 2008, 07:23

thanks gobilalitha

I havent touched based with Ravi yet but I should be soon (atleast in May during the Chicago Tyagaraja Utsavam if not earlier).

mri_fan: mic-in I think should work as Line-In (i.e. from Line-Out) but only if you have a way to adjust the mic sensitivity. This is because Line-Out's level can be quite high and so without sensitivity adjustments the recording could be distorted. Conversely plugging a mic to a Line-In wont work as unless it is a powered mic, as the mic's output level would be too low for Line-In (and the device expects Line-Out to go to Line-In and thus the input's level to be high). On H2 and Edirol etc, I would expect sensitivity settings to be there that is if Line-In is not there. Both may be there as these are supposedly most sophisticated among similar products. But I think you should be able to find info easily.

As usual, I am talking based on half-baked knowledge. So apologies for misinformation.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 28 Feb 2008, 08:01

The Zoom H2 and Edirol R09 have separate line inputs and built in microphones. If you want to plug in your own mic there is a different mic input.

Mrifan, the best way to check is to review the specifications on the product's website.

shadjam · Post by **shadjam** » 17 Mar 2008, 00:59

I am looking to buy a mp3 player with a voice recorder (such as Creative Zen). Is the voice recorder in these mp3 players good enough to record music lessons? Are there any advantages of using Zoom H2 or other recorders for this purpose over using mp3 players with recorders? Thanks a lot.

mri_fan · Post by **mri_fan** » 17 Mar 2008, 01:33

I think it just comes down to quality of the recording.

I just bought a Zoom H2, and although I haven't fully tried its functions yet, everything I've done so far has sounded amazing, especially compared to previous recorders which I owned (all cheaper 50-75 buck models).

For recording a music lesson, I think one advantage of the zoom h2 is its microphone set up. by setting up the system between you and your teacher, if you select the appropriate functions, you can enable a 360 degree listening feature which produces really excellent quality recordings.

it's also versitle with microphones (if you use them in class), can be used to tune an instrument, and has a metronome.

I'll stop sounding like an advertisement now, and be sure to let you know if I have any criticisms of the product.

shadjam · Post by **shadjam** » 17 Mar 2008, 05:21

Thanks, mri_fan.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 17 Mar 2008, 19:49

For music lessons *alone*, Zoom & Edirol is overkill as quality may not be of paramount importance. Also as stated earlier, for me, to be able to *easily* isolate/seek to portions of a lesson is the most important feature. I frequently like to hear one sangati many times (a slow learner). I do not know if the Zoom & Edirol have that (?) - it seemed it may be possible but not "easily".

But if you are looking to use it for "jam sessions" etc. where quality becomes important, then Zoom & Edirol would be the best bet as they should give very high quality.

Arun

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 17 Mar 2008, 21:11

The Edirol stuff looks great, and my gadget appetite is stimulated, if not positively drooling, even though I have very little use, these days, for such a thing. I have't looked at the price yet!

Things have moved on a long way since my trusty MiniDisc was my companion at rehearsals, just a few years ago.

shadjam · Post by **shadjam** » 18 Mar 2008, 08:37

Thanks, Arun and Nick.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 18 Mar 2008, 09:01

My drooling has dried up: The edirol thingy is 20,000 plus

sramaswamy · Post by **sramaswamy** » 19 Mar 2008, 01:42

I use iRiver H-320 - (http://www.iriver.com/product/p_detail.asp?pidx=42)

This has a built-in microphone. You can connect an external microphone as well, but then you have to remember to change the settings, which I have forgotten quite a few times. But for class I always use the built in microphone. The only problem I have found is that it takes a few seconds to spin up or spin down. This can be problematic during a class if you want different songs to be recorded under different files. You can of course record the whole session in a big file. But then you need to spend some more time splitting the files later on.

The recording is very good and I remember to keep it away from sruti box

I will be happier if I can quickly stop one recording and start a new recording immediately:(

Pros:

- Records directly as mp3
- doubles up as my mp3player (sorry ipod)
- connect to computer and use file explorer to organize, copy
- no need to install any special software to manipulate files

Cons:

- the music player takes a few seconds to start and stop.
- very bulky
- battery seems to be losing charge earlier and earlier.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 19 Mar 2008, 01:54

nick H wrote:My drooling has dried up: The edirol thingy is 20,000 plus

:D Been there. Done that!

gn.sn42 · Post by **gn.sn42** » 04 Apr 2008, 07:59

arunk,

Take a look at the Tascam DR-1 - it appears to have all the specs you want: quality recording, small size, a variety of playback features including changing speed and looping.

http://www.tascam.com/products/dr-1.html

mahesh_narayan · Post by **mahesh_narayan** » 04 Apr 2008, 12:59

I am not too knowledgeable on recording gadgets, and on iPods in general, but am looking for a good device to record my music lessons.

Can this one be used for recording purposes?
http://shopping.rediff.com/shop/product ... ove%2020GB

If yes, how do you guys feel about it? I am thinking about the 80GB one. The 160GB one is too expensive (almost 18K). How much space would a typical concert recording take?

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 04 Apr 2008, 14:07

An iPod is unnecessarily expensive for recording IMO. I have an 80 GB iPod with an external mic attachment. It only records in hard-disk-hogging .wav format, plus the mike eats so much charge that the thing dies after about 2-2.5 hours.

I now use a little mp3 recorder made by Cowon [Cowon iAudio] which is about the size of a pack of gum. I has 1 GB of storage space and a whole concert recording is about 40 MB-50 MB in 128k mp3. It also records in 32k WAV if you want. I just take the mp3 in iTunes and downsample it to 32k using the iTunes inbuilt converter. That's more than enough for music lessons or anything else you want to record of that nature. It also has a line-in input and headphone output. The concert recording which I posted in another thread was recorded using this.

I bought this recorder from the CROMA chain of electronics stores in Mumbai and I am sure it should be easily available in Bangalore. The price IIRC was Rs. 2500.

Edit: Another option I utilize sometimes is recording using Garageband on my MacBook. The recording quality is excellent, but of course this is not very portable [unless you want to shell out $ 2.5 K for the MacBook Air]

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 04 Apr 2008, 14:41

iPod is renowned for its design and marketing success.

Cowon, of which far fewer people have ever heard, is renowned for quality

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 04 Apr 2008, 15:15

I know of some CM teachers who are very sensitive to their lessons being recorded. Have you come across this problem and if so how do most of you manage to convince them.

?

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 04 Apr 2008, 16:23

Every teacher I have learnt from has been very receptive to recording lessons and has needed absolutely no convincing.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 04 Apr 2008, 16:43

Prashant,

If one already owns an iPod, then wouldn't an external mike be less of an expense? The newer mikes do not hog too much power and comfortably record for 3-4 hours. Also, they tout '360 degree' recording. And yes, the format is the LARGE .wav file, which again can be reduced by using the versatile iTunes, and the .wav files can be deleted.

Of course, if one entertains fancies of M and 007, a recorder the size of a pack of gum is an irresistible 'boy-toy'!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 04 Apr 2008, 19:13

gn.sn42 wrote:arunk,

Take a look at the Tascam DR-1 - it appears to have all the specs you want: quality recording, small size, a variety of playback features including changing speed and looping.

http://www.tascam.com/products/dr-1.html

It does seem to have the ability to "create tracks" (or say create bookmarks if you will) on the fly on the device (?). That is the main thing I look for.

Also it has a street price of "just" $299 - not what I was looking for

;)

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 04 Apr 2008, 19:25

mahesh_narayan wrote:I am not too knowledgeable on recording gadgets, and on iPods in general, but am looking for a good device to record my music lessons.

Can this one be used for recording purposes?
http://shopping.rediff.com/shop/product ... ove%2020GB

If yes, how do you guys feel about it? I am thinking about the 80GB one. The 160GB one is too expensive (almost 18K). How much space would a typical concert recording take?

To sort of repeat again. At this point, I recommend the Olympus recorders (higher end i.e. > $100, i have the DS-30: http://www.olympusamerica.com/cpg_secti ... oduct=1276) for the following reasons
1. Very small, light and portable. Fits easily in your shirt pocket and you dont even feel it is there.
2. Decent quality (certainly more than sufficient) for music lessons - but certainly not for "pro recordings". But on the recordings I have - they are clear - no hiss, no muffled sound etc. I was pleasantly surprised that the quality exceeded my expectations.
3. Since it uses WMA you can record quite a bit (many lessons) before you find a need to transfer them to computer.
4. Transferring is as easy as transferring from a USB drive. But if you want it on a mp3 player you need to convert from WMA to MP3. There are many easily available tools for this - but one can still argue that this is a minor inconvenience.
5. Can create index marks on the fly to isolate portions. As far as I know only this and minidisc recorders have this capability. The Olympus basically stores this info in the WMA file.
6. With a little bit of work, you can create m4a (mp4 audio files) with the same index marks (as audio chapters) and then you can have them play on say iPod. I have done this - although on the Mac, and it depended on one tool from Apple which I think is available only the mac - it basically "mixes" the index information into an audio file. Not sure if an equiv one exists on Windows - I would be very surprised if it does not. Its not exactly rocket science that only Apple has figured out.

But like I said if you want to also use to for recording concerts and jam sesions where high quality becomes an more important factor, then this will get lower marks compared to Edirol, Xoom etc. because of #2 (but you loose out on #5). But for mainly music lessons, IMO, this is the best bet.

Arun

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 05 Apr 2008, 10:36

rshankar wrote:Prashant,

If one already owns an iPod, then wouldn't an external mike be less of an expense? The newer mikes do not hog too much power and comfortably record for 3-4 hours. Also, they tout '360 degree' recording. And yes, the format is the LARGE .wav file, which again can be reduced by using the versatile iTunes, and the .wav files can be deleted.

Of course, if one entertains fancies of M and 007, a recorder the size of a pack of gum is an irresistible 'boy-toy'!

Arun - fair points. However, for someone like me, whose 80GB iPod has exactly 132 MB free, using one of these mike attachments is dicey to say the least

. I bought my mic attachment from the Apple Store in NYC last year and it was like $ 70. Unless the prices have come down since then, the Cowon is still cheaper [not by much though]. Agree on the 360 degree recording - the quality of the iPod attachment mics is excellent.

Somehow I never thought I'd ever the word 'boy-toy' being used on this forum!!!

:D:D

vainika · Post by **vainika** » 06 Apr 2008, 04:32

prashant wrote:Somehow I never thought I'd ever the word 'boy-toy' being used on this forum!!! :D:D

Me neither!

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 06 Apr 2008, 05:18

It was too delicious to resist!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 06 Apr 2008, 14:11

Rather we should use the word boy-toy than toyboy!!!!!!