Carnatic Idol 2007

vainika · Post by **vainika** » 09 Nov 2007, 17:17

If Carnatic music can embrace violins, saxophones, mandolins and clarinets; why not keyboards? And, far from it being easy to play, it would take extraordinary talent to be able to produce 'continuity' effects on a keyboard. If someone is able to do it, isn't it good to encourage such talent?

Plus, "god's gift", commitment and hard work are surely independent of the medium through which an artiste chooses to express him/herself, be it through a musical instrument, voice, dance, poetry, sculpture or canvas...

naaree · Post by **naaree** » 09 Nov 2007, 18:40

Sour grapes anyone?

The argument is so bogus, I dont know where to begin.

Many performers of the so called classical forms of music such as vocal, violin etc are unable to adhere to the classicism that is required and uphold the necessary standards that our friend haribabu is alluding to. It would be interesting to research the time period during which some of the "acceptable" instruments were introduced/popularized into carnatic music.

It is also my belief that these competitions give the student/up and coming artist a chance to evaluate their talent and compare themselves to the others in the field. If they fall short so be it. That should inspire them to work harder and improve upon the skills that are lacking.

So in the meanwhile, as a listener, let us continue to keep the focus on the music that is produced and not be prejudiced by,

1. The instrument that produces the music
2. The physical attributes of the artist
3. The mannerisms of the artist

One should even learn to appreciate the effort put forth, considering the limitations of the instrument.

NS

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 09 Nov 2007, 19:49

Dear b/s-member rasikas, While both Gaayaki-ang and Vaadaki-ang are given equal importance and while there are independent â€˜bandishâ€™ also for both of them in Hindusthani system, in our Karnataka system only Gaayaki-ang i.e., Vocal-based-music is followed irrespective of Vocal and Instruments and more over the â€˜bandishâ€™ i.e., the compositions are one and the same for both in our music. Even though the Mandolin is purely a western instrument it has suitably been modified by the players to play all kinds of Kampitas or Gamakas of our music. As far as my knowledge goes, till now, no Keyboard player has ever brought out his/her music like in the music brought out either by Vocal or Veena or Violin or even Mandolin. If either Keyboard or Piano or Accordion are also modified suitably there is nothing wrong in including those instruments also in our music. Until such time people can bear with them only for a novelty. amsharma.

Aparna · Post by **Aparna** » 10 Nov 2007, 02:39

Sentiments expressed by the initiator of this thread come when organizers mix up all instruments as one category and judge. The level of complexity is not the same across each instrument and it is not a good practice to jumble instruments as one category and judge.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 10 Nov 2007, 04:29

haribabu wrote:If you listen to the performance on keyboard alone, can any one call it as classical music?

Depends on who is playing the keyboard, I think

My grandmother was an excellent harmonium player. - Yes, she played elaborate compositions like akshaya linga vibhO, and Sri subrahmanyAya namastE on the harmonium, and she was not a professional musician.

So if someone has the talent and wants to go the keyboad way, and can execute it well (that's the key!) what is the harm?

-Ramakriya

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 10 Nov 2007, 04:59

And in HM, harmonium accompaniment is like a violin in a CM concert.
While I have no great love for the way a harmonium sounds, in expert hands, I have heard it sing along with the HM vocalist. It is still a limited instrument when it comes to aspects like gamakAs, but can be pleasant sounding when it is played expertly. If I am not mistaken, it was quite a popular thing for the youngsters to train in, say in the forties.
Jawaharlal Nehru was averse to the sounds of a harmonium!
I do not know how well a mandolin sounds in CM when novices play it. But in Srinivas's hands it is a highly expressive and enchanting medium. Personally, I prefer to see the saxaphone in the hands of jazz musicians and would like the instrument to stay in the realm of popular music. Why not give prominence to nAgasvarm instead?
I do not know how CM rasikAs reacted to the violin as a pakka vAdyam when it entered the scene. It has endeared itself to CM. Still, it shines only in the playing of accomplished fiddlers. Keyboard? I don't think it would gain the stature of the violin in a CM concert because of its limitations...

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 10 Nov 2007, 06:33

I am not that big fan of the timbre of harmonium either. Also since it has to "break-down" kampita into discrete sub-units and also "approx" jArus (really again sub-units), it is at best an approximation and that is the main reason why I am not that much enamored by it. But as an accompaniment along with voice, such thinigs may not matter - but whenever it is sounded by itself to me these approximations standout

Note however that keyboard has portamento control to achieve smoother transitions. So in that way it is way more capable than harmonium.

naaree · Post by **naaree** » 10 Nov 2007, 07:13

To quote TNS

'Gyanam irundhaa edhulayum vasikkalaam", in response to a curious question of how he was so adept at the harmonium as well.

NS

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 10 Nov 2007, 07:18

Well - the question is whether the instrument can produce all the contours of CM. I am sorry harmonium physically cannot do that - no amount of gnyanam can overcome the physical limitations of the instrument here. It can only approximate. But in certain situations, and for certain uses, this is quite acceptable to many people - for some it is not.

Arun

KRNadhan · Post by **KRNadhan** » 10 Nov 2007, 12:49

In Response to Naree:

I don't think the argument is bogus. Why cant Music associations give a thought on this. A key board is effort less work and a classical instrument is a difficult one to handle or even to maintain the sruti and play. Can"t you think it is our responsibility to respect our own culture.

manjunath · Post by **manjunath** » 10 Nov 2007, 14:06

Member Ramakriya

Never a key board can play like a classical instrument . It is a dependent instrument like computer.Every thing is copied from the original one and stored. A classical performer is always a criator . Argument can't be ruled out. like memeber brother Nadhan expressed our culture is above all. Unfortunately our seniormusicians depend on music associations for the concerts and will not comment on these type of argument. The judges of the copetition are also at fault. The so called senior judges should check with the organiser what he is doing. They can put forward thier skillfull thinking and express openly. When they permitted keyboard under carnatic music they even can permit cabre dance in classical dance and call it ias indian classical dance. Isn't it?

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 10 Nov 2007, 14:55

manjunath wrote:Never a key board can play like a classical instrument . It is a dependent instrument like computer.Every thing is copied from the original one and stored. A classical performer is always a criator .

This is not true. I just came back from listening to a bit of keyboard Satya who played a beautiful Kambodhi (very good) and then some Bhairavi (reasnoably well). This kind of playing requires tremendous musical gnyanam as well as playing skill. Apart from fingering techniques common with harmonium, etc.., it involves the use of the "pitch bender" in tandem with the fingering, a difficult and original skill. Also, nothing is copied and "stored" like a computer in this keyboard ! Here too, the performer is always a creator. I would rank this as a superb innovation that deserves a standing ovation.

manjunath wrote:When they permitted keyboard under carnatic music they even can permit cabre dance in classical dance and call it ias indian classical dance. Isn't it?

This is a nonsensical statement. Cabaret is not a classical dance whereas keyboard Satya's music totally classical. Have you heard him ?

That said, I have no personal liking for the keyboard or any other electronic sound. Or even electronically assisted sounds like the "mandolin" or the guitar. I cannot sit through full concerts of any of these instruments. My personal preference for "natural" musical instruments with simple mechanical construction, that could have been crafted with the technology of 500 BC. That would include instruments like the tampura, flute, chitravina, vina, mridangam, ghatam, etc.. Western instruments with comparable simplicity can be included - eg the violin. Instruments like the saxophone are also mechanical but their construction is more complex and we move away from the rule of simplicity. But they are still preferable to electronic instruments.

Sathej · Post by **Sathej** » 10 Nov 2007, 15:27

I would slightly differ. Kambhoji was not that great and Bhairavi's charm was missing. It was interesting to note that Bhairavi was given as an alternative to the contestant when he said he couldn't play Varali. Was it due to lack of knowledge of Varali or due to the fact that Varali cannot be brought out very well in such an instrument?
Sathej

aravindan · Post by **aravindan** » 10 Nov 2007, 17:51

Sathej

I was there in the sabha , I agree with you. I do not understand how these people includeded keyboard for finals. It is the mistake of judges OR it might be a well planned. It is not a small mistake . I feel some net work is working hard to pramot satya and it is intentional in bringing him upto this level.

vallieswran · Post by **vallieswran** » 10 Nov 2007, 18:21

You are right Brother Sathej/Aravindan I too was there and your opinion is correct. I object the word INNOVATON . Member should understand ,no one can invent carnatic music. It already exists and using this on keyboard is not a innovation. may be it is difficult for the artist to sing pure classical music or play classical instrument and opted this easy method of Keyboard.

Sathej · Post by **Sathej** » 10 Nov 2007, 19:22

The judges and organizers themselves are highly esteemed musicians in their own right. So, no qualms about that and no doubts. I just meant to say the keyboard is evidently not suited (atleast as of now) to play certain Ragams (and some major ones at that) in an effective manner. Certain issues as regards the format of the contest need to be thought out and implementation methods could be debated. However, the contest was rather unique and deserves praise for conception and execution.
Sathej

chalanata · Post by **chalanata** » 10 Nov 2007, 19:33

i happened to attend a wedding reception and this key board boy was playing a 'ilaya raja' no. it was such a sad sight. the accompanying violinist was yawning away not knowing what to do. the boy again i'm saying is playing ok but probably is wasting his time and talent on a wrong instrument. hype like trinity college and ar rahman does not work in cm. it is high time this misguided youth concentrates on cm without adulteration and should accept invitations for concerts sparingly because when concerts swell learning droops. the parents should guide him properly.
as far as this 'idol' business is concerned there are many other unsung institutions which are identifying and nurturing talents without much ado.
haribabu,
one suggestion if you do not mistake me. your son is in best hands and his guru is competent to take him to heights. and ultimately 'vidhvath' only matters. hence you should not worry about the debacle.

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 10 Nov 2007, 21:57

Sathej wrote:I just meant to say the keyboard is evidently not suited (atleast as of now) to play certain Ragams (and some major ones at that) in an effective manner.Sathej

That's also nonsense

. You may be dissatistied with keyboard's Sathya's effort today. That's fair enough and it's an opinion that needs to be respected. But that's all the "evidence" we have unless you have some unique insight into the capabilites of everybody who takes up the keyboard or even what this kid can do. An instrument is as good as the player and this kid has tried quite hard. As for Varali, all the kid said was that he didn't know any piece in that rAgam. That's not a crime or even indicative of anything more. He even didn't refuse to play alapana in the raga but the judges thought it fit to ask him for another raga. So all your conclusions about the "suitability" of the keyboard is pure speculation. Needless to say, free speech is a fundamental right and you're most welcome to speculate. I'm switching off right here...

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 10 Nov 2007, 23:20

Why is our keyboard expert strangely silent...my own view is that if TNS thought it fit to be introduced it probably is...but I would jump into a well if he asked me to, so my opinion does not count for much! I also understand that the pitchblend can be used to produce gamakas so perhaps a comparison with a harmonium is nprobably not accurate. I'd be very surprised if Varali cannot be played on the instrument...personally speaking, I haven't attended any concerts on the keyboard yet...I have to get over a small mental block there!

As for the other reactions above, we certainly see a lot of the boy around but we are probably being a little hard on a 12 year old, pushy parents/over exposure notwithstanding...talented youngsters have to deal with these pressures...with age and maturity they will find the right path. Or drop out, like some prodigies have. To judge him at this age is rather premature - commenting on the music in the context of a competition is another matter. Have to say, though, that he seems to be generating a lot of rancor going by the number of people who've registered today to raise their voices against him!

Finally it would probably be appropriate to have separate sections for different instruments in future editions...or at least a "traditional" and a and "contemporary" category...

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 10 Nov 2007, 23:21

Finally Uday/Sathej, would be good to have a report on the event (would like to have attended myself but reached only this afternoon)..were the winners announced?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 10 Nov 2007, 23:25

Have to say, though, that he seems to be generating a lot of rancor going by the number of people who've registered today to raise their voices against him!

Possibly. Also possible that such heated discussions cause some people to register under different names

which we actively discourage.

Uday, I assume your general points are about Keyboards with pitch bends and not about any keyed instrument like,say Piano. As Arun said there are obvious physical limitations of the instruments which make it not suitable for general purpose concert worthy CM.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 11 Nov 2007, 00:05

While synthesizer keyboards definitely have more capabities for continuous transitions, IMO you have to go quite expensive for ones that do "realistic" pitch bends. Pitch bends in that instrument does involve DSP (digital signal processing). I have heard some samples of Satya (on youtube) - I think he definitely is going for the classical feel but I think at times the limitations of the timbre of the instrument (sounds "too digital") do show up. This is more so during pitch bends. These limitations become more pronounced when you mid-to-low level (my guess - based on little I have heard and played around with). Also, in both keyboard and harmonium, G3 when held flat may seem a bit off to some - that is because as per the equi-tempered scale, G3 is the "most off" from the natural G3 - but the difference is really not that large (i think around 14 cents).

But I was impressed how much indeed Satya can do with the instrument.

Is using keyboard - contaminating CM and that people should give up and go for "unadulterated CM"? That would be true only if there is a conscious effort NOT to try all the gamakas i.e. compromise them more often than not. I think this is certainly not true - it is much much less than in the case of harmonium. Using pitch bends, all gamakas can indeed be done on keyboard - needs lot of talent (and most definitely a very very good instrument). It has certainly come a long way - although for my personal preference it is still not there at the level of violin, flute, veena etc.

But simply dismissing keyboard as somehow forever incompatible with CM iwould a harsh, premature and also inaccurate judgement - since it is certainly way more capable than harmonium which was part of CM scene in the first half of 20th century. I think this may be due to a general stigma against keyboard - as it is associated with CM and film. People should remember that harmonium is not a natural Indian instrument - it indeed has a WM base.

My 2 cents.
Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 11 Nov 2007, 00:14

A little bit on the ligher side: When Haribabu mentioned something like 'it is all built-in', such impressions can be made because you do not really see what the performer is doing to create those sounds and music. From the audience standpoint, the key board player is pretty still and stable and the finger movements are not that much visible. This is especially true if the player is facing the audience straight.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 11 Nov 2007, 00:29

Vk, I'd like to watch a keyboard player switch on "the computer inside the keyboard", sit back and relax with a cigar in one hand and keeping time with the other!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 11 Nov 2007, 00:39

may be such keyboard player should do air keyboard

Haribabu, this is all for some levity, I know what you meant 'fixed swarasthanas and relative skill level needed to produce notes compared to say a violinist'. But the pitch bend use for CM gamakams is tricky.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 11 Nov 2007, 04:59

The experiment of the human voice and the piano together (madirAkshi by Gurucharan and Anil Srinivasan) was very pleasing. They pulled it off by creating a mood. I am not saying that this can become a regular feature on stage. Somehow, the sensibilities of the two performers blended as one and produced music which was agreeable. It brought out the sweetness of vilamba kAlam, and one or two pieces really stood out. I would rather listen to such music in the background than to an assault of hurried melliSai or drut in the name of vilambit (as in the other thread on the Hindu Utsav)!

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 11 Nov 2007, 05:13

vijay wrote:Why is our keyboard expert strangely silent...my own view is that if TNS thought it fit to be introduced it probably is......

Vijay, if you are referring to me, I am no expert but just an experimenter. This topic has been done to death here before so I thought there was no need to go over it. Like Arun says, only the very high-end synthesizers (costing in excess of $4000) can produce the correct gamakas required for Carnatic music, and then it needs to be handled very carefully by an experienced artist. One should not compare such a synthesizer to a harmonium.

Ragas like Varali are possible on the synthesizer but then again how many young artistes can even sing Varali competently? I personnaly do not use the pitch bender much but prefer to use portamento controls.

If the keyboard is able to bring more youngsters to listen/learn Carnatic music, then we should not be discouraging them. Rember that the violin is a Western instrument, as well. Members are welcome to comment on this Lathangi played by me:
http://www.soundclick.com/util/download ... 2F9F6D2F-8

Sathej · Post by **Sathej** » 11 Nov 2007, 08:49

Well, I didn't mean to put down any individual or any instrument for that matter. The keyboard certainly doesn't deserve to be discouraged. However, it certainly has a long way to go and in its present form (have heard it quite a few times) cannot be considered suitable to be called a full-fledged concert instrument capable of handling everything that Carnatic music has to offer. It is too young an instrument in this field (leave alone the harmonium) and has to undergo modifications to fit well. All instruments of western origin, including the violin (though Shri Lalgudi always maintains the violin has its earliest origins in India), went through this period.
Sathej

chalanata · Post by **chalanata** » 11 Nov 2007, 11:25

mohan,
the one good thing about this thread is your lathangi. very nice execution. congrats. a listener will not be able to make out that the notes are from a key board unless told. but then again the gamakas are synthetic and probably the ears have to get used to this kind of alapana. in fact when i heard mandolin for the first time i was finding a lack of contiguity in the swaras; this may be because the ears were too used to veena venu and violin till such time.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 11 Nov 2007, 11:28

In this context, I am thinking about jalatharangam. The most discrete and fixed swarasthanas ( tuning difficulties aside ) as one can get and still has a place in CM.

Nkannan · Post by **Nkannan** » 11 Nov 2007, 13:13

Hello friends ! I was just surfing music portals.just joined to day to see carnatic music. I generally visit many music sabhas in city. The keyboard boy is palying O.K! I personally seen himplaying filmifunda in concerts. Do you think , is the good practice . If there is no deference between archestra band and aclassical carnatic musician , there is no problem inviting keyboard into carnatic music i feel. But Rasikas like me never listen / attend the programme. for one time feeling keyboard is o.k ! if you invent any string instrument which produces orginal sound of the string can be acceptable in CM.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 11 Nov 2007, 14:54

Thanks for the upload MOhan!

manjunath · Post by **manjunath** » 11 Nov 2007, 20:09

Namma hridayapooraka namaskara guru Akella ! Can't belive such people still exists in Kliyuga.

chalanata · Post by **chalanata** » 12 Nov 2007, 07:16

'entharo mahanubhavulu; anthariki vandhanamu'
sharmaji! pranams!

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 12 Nov 2007, 08:46

Dear brother-members, chalanata & manjunath, Thank you for your kind appreciation. This is not my greatness at all. Behind it there is the cumulative effect of my fatherâ€™s Tapas as a Shivopasaka in his daily routine and also, specially, for three months in â€˜Jnaanavaapiâ€™ of Benares to have me as his son (became alive after 5 or 6 sons) with all the good qualities, my motherâ€™s Tapas as a Gayathriopasaki, the Almightyâ€™s blessings which made me write 7 books of their own kind on music in the annals of our music literature, a successful Violinist and an efficient teacher in music with innovative, effective and easy methods in teaching.

In fact, 4 years duration of learning music is more than enough to make an aspirant a concert artist but the teacher must be efficient, sincere, affectionate, impartial, disciplined, ideal and loyal and should teach without expecting any monetary benefit at all. But, nowadays, to make more money out of it, the teaching process is being wantonly elongated by the teachers. Even while teaching the aspirant the teaching of the technicalities should occupy much place and for lessons minimum place. More over, even though everybody is greedy to eat much, a person who can eat well and assimilate it well should only be fed much. Just like a mother who knows well than any other person on earth about the capacities of her 10 kids, feeds each one of them differently basing upon each individualâ€™s different tastes and abilities. Basing upon such logics I start the music lessons not with Saralees but with Laya-exercises only to instill confidence into the aspirant. Up to Gitas I teach Laya but not Tala at all. At the end of five Gitas I teach Talas and within a couple of days he will get reasonable control over the seven Suladi-talas. Then along with some special Laya-exercises I teach only 9 Varnas and Bhairavi-Svarajati in a particular seriatim which contributes to the knowledge of Gamakas and other technicalities which enable him/her start learning Kritis on his/her own in my guidance only but not regular teaching.
While teaching the cooking methods to her daughter the mother should make her daughter sit in the kitchen and the mother herself should demonstrate and define each and every detail for a couple of weeks. Later, for another couple of weeks, she should sit in the kitchen and make her daughter cook every thing in her presence. Later, still for another couple of weeks, she should make her daughter cook efficiently even in her absence. Unless an efficient mother does not do so she herself has to follow her daughter even to her in-laws house.
There are two varieties of teachings and they are (1) direct teaching and (2) indirect teaching, Of course, only after my retirement from Govtâ€™s service in 1996 and after great introspection I found all these things and formulated different kinds of excercises for all of them and I meticulously follow them not to make money at all but to shape the aspirant an independent artist who can lead his artist-life without any dependency at all. Only in this way I train my students and, without any failure, each one of my students becomes a professional depending upon his/her own hardwork. As I do not expect any money from any of my students I select suitable students of younger age, between 8 and 12 years, teach them and make them practice different kinds of techniques for hours together. As I am very particular about standards I have a very few students and Chi.K Vinay Rahul, son of Shri Haribabu is one of them. Now, he is around 15 years and, I can tell, he will make a mark in this field if he works hard with perseverance. amsharma.

musicquest · Post by **musicquest** » 12 Nov 2007, 10:27

This is so heartening to note. There is one thing that has not been given due value in our society. Humbleness......the truly great people are really humble and are ready to share. I was a cricketer and played for the state. I have been associated with some truly great people and one thing I found common is the humbleness they have in them. I am not sure why humility is not given a due place in our society.

I think it is to do with the saying " Good fellow good for nothing" our society considers humility a weakness which is such a huge mistake.

Sharmaji my pranams and my sincere wishes to you and your students I am so heartened to hear this. The bane of Carnatic music is that most teachers (surely everything has exceptions) don't want to impart knowledge whole heartedly. Carnatic music has suffered popularity due to this you don't see the great vidwans imparting thier knowlegde for the younger generation unless it is their own children.

DKJ and off late PSN have done their best to correct this.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 12 Nov 2007, 12:31

Dear brother-member, music quest, Thank you for your kind appreciation. While coming into or going out of this world we neither bring nor take anything along with us. Everything is of the Almighty and everything is Almighty. In fact, we are nowhere and HE is everywhere. In the same way nothing is ours and everything is HIS. Even though this is true MAAYA makes us look untrue which is truly untrue. But, keeping this in mind, every human must sincerely work his best. HE had showered many things upon me and by HIS grace I am able to do so and if HE permits everybody can do so. For HIS grace everybody must pray HIM and see HIM in every being. Everybody is aware of this and I am not telling any new thing at all. Thanking you once again, amsharma.

aravindan · Post by **aravindan** » 12 Nov 2007, 22:08

Is results out?

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 12 Nov 2007, 23:50

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9Xcgg4K0gog

here's something on you tube about carnatic idol

aravindan · Post by **aravindan** » 13 Nov 2007, 08:29

As advised by My friend Haribabu ,as he is not reachable to internet for two to 3days. this has been posted on behalf of him .

Dear Rasikas and ESPECIALLY To Mr. SHAHIKIRAN and Ms. SOWMYA :

With my over all view expressed on some music associations, that in the name of the classical music some people are making money without looking at standards, I am receiving few phone calls from friends. From this , I felt my words have touched many hearts or even disappointed some people who are genuine in their efforts to serve the Carnatic classical music. I request Rasikas to note that it was a over all view happening in the society in certain cases and not in particular to CARNATICA.

Also, since my son Master Vinayrahul is into classical music, perfection is preferred first and it prompted me to find out the best classical music forums in the country. I did small survey and observations too on the activities of some music forums. The CARNATICA GROUP is one of the best few Carnatic forums available in India in preserving and safeguarding our culture . I felt that , it should not get discouraged the people who are seriously trying to keep alive of our culture and I would like to apologize to Mr. SHASHIKIRAN and Ms. SOWMYA incase my words have disappointed your group directly or indirectly .. It is not at all prompted to CARNATICA and we indeed need committed and honest people like you to preserve our culture and heritage.

In fact I am the founder of â€œVINAY MUDRAâ€

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 14 Nov 2007, 09:16

Dear b/s-members, In 2004 and 2005, Shri Haribabu had organized â€˜KNOWLEDGE COMPETITIONS IN CLASSICAL KARNATAKA MUSICâ€™ at Hyderabad under my supervision and a copy of the relevant rules and regulations is furnished hereunder for the information of the interested parties in conducting true competitions which immensely help to enhance the standards of the aspirants.

V I N A Y A M U D R A
(Bharateeya Kalanidhi)

KNOWLEDGE COMPETITIONS IN CLASSICAL KARNATAKA MUSIC

Since some time past, Vinayamudra (Bharateeya Kalanidhi) has been striving hard for the cause of music in twin cities and as a part of this â€˜Knowledge competitions in classical Karnataka musicâ€™ are also conducted for the development of knowledge of Karnataka music in Andhra Pradesh State. The details are furnished hereunder.

RULES & REGULATIONS

All the participants of these competitions should invariably sing/play along with the â€˜Electronic Metronomeâ€™. At the time of competitions â€˜Electronic Metronome and Electronic Automatic Tamburaâ€™ will be provided by the organisers. Being the residents of the State of Andhra Pradesh the candidates learning Karnataka Music pertaining to Vocal / Veena / Venu / Violin / Gotu / Nadasvaram / Clarionet could participate in these competitions. The competitions of any category will not be held unless there is a minimum number of three applications from the candidates and such details will be informed earlier to the respective candidates returning their entrance fee. Prior intimation in regard to the venue and time of these competitions will be sent to the participants.

Sub-juniors: First prize - Rs.3000/-
Second prize- Rs.2000/-
Third prize - Rs.1000/-

The candidates without exceeding 15 years of age as on the date of the competitions are eligible to participate in these competitions.

1. The candidates should sing/play the Eka-tala-jathi - â€˜ki-ta-ta-kaâ€™, Rupaka-tala-jathi - â€˜ta-ka  ki- ta-ta-kaâ€™, Mathya-tala-jathi - â€˜ki-ta-ta-ka  ta-ka  ki-ta-takaâ€™, Dhruva-tala-jathi - â€˜ki-ta-ta-ka  ta-ka  ki-ta-ta-ka  ki-ta-ta-kaâ€™, Jhampa-tala-jathi - â€˜ta-ki-ta-ta-ka-ta-ki  ta  taaâ€™, Ata-tala-jathi - â€˜ta-kee-taa  taa-ki-taa  taa  taaâ€™ and Triputa-tala-jathi - â€˜ta-ki-ta  ki-ta  ta-kaâ€™ furnished in the chapter of â€˜Practice of Jathis in different Talasâ€™ in the 7th, 8th & 9th pages of â€˜Sangita Svararaga Sudhaâ€™ written by Shri Akella Mallikarjuna Sharma in the same order in the third degree of speed of 4-units of Chaturashra-gathi per Kriya per second i.e., Matra-kala in two Avartas each at the first instance and later at the rate of 3-units per second of Trisra-gathi in two Avartas each and lastly the Svara portion of the Alankara in Ata-tala in the same manner.

2. The candidates, along with the beats of the left hand and Kriyas of the right hand of the Chaturashra-gathi Adi-tala at the rate of 4-units per Kriya per second i.e., Matra-kala, should render the three kinds of Jaathi breaks of Trisra, Khanda & Mishra and the Khanda break in the end of each Avarta furnished in pages from 23 to 27 of â€˜Sangita Svararaga Sudhaâ€™.
3. The candidates should furnish a list of three Adi-tala Varnas consisting a minimum of 8 Avarthas in the Purvanga and consecutively sing/play both the Purvanga and Uttaranga of a Varna chosen by lottery among them at the rate of 4-units of Chaturashra, 6-units of Divya-sankeerna and 8-units of Mishra-sankeerna per Kriya.
4. Among the Muktayis furnished in pages 35 & 36 in â€˜Sangita Svararaga Sudhaâ€™ the candidates have to chose six Muktayis by lottery and among them three Muktayis chosen by lottery should be rendered in terms of Jathis of Khanda (5), Divya-sankeerna (6), Mishra (7) and Sankeerna (9) and other three of them chosen by lottery in terms of Svara of the same Jathis.

Juniors: First prize - Rs.4000/-
Second prize - Rs.3000/-
Third prize - Rs.2000/-

Candidates of the age between 16 and 25 years and the artists of not more than â€˜B-gradeâ€™ of All India Radio of the same age group can participate in these competitions.

1. The candidates should sing/play the Eka-tala-jathi - â€˜ki-ta-ta-kaâ€™, Rupaka-tala-jathi â€“ â€˜ta-ka  ki- ta-ta-kaâ€™, Mathya-tala-jathi â€“ â€˜ki-ta-ta-ka  ta-ka  ki-ta-takaâ€™, Dhruva-tala-jathi â€“ â€˜ki-ta-ta-ka  ta-ka  ki-ta-ta-ka  ki-ta-ta-kaâ€™, Jhampa-tala-jathi â€“ â€˜ta-ki-ta-ta-ka-ta-ki  ta  taaâ€™, Ata-tala-jathi â€“ â€˜ta-kee-taa  taa-ki-taa  taa  taaâ€™ and Triputa-tala-jathi - â€˜ta-ki-ta  ki-ta  ta-kaâ€™ furnished in the chapter of â€˜Practice of Jathis in different Talasâ€™ in the 7th, 8th & 9th pages of â€˜Sangita Svararaga Sudhaâ€™ written by Shri Akella Mallikarjuna Sharma in the same order at the rate of 1, 2, 3, 4, 6 & 8-units per Kriya per second i.e., Matra-kala, possibly in one Avarta each and lastly the Svara portion of the Alankara in Ata-tala in the same manner.
2. The candidates, along with the beats of the left hand and Kriyas of the right hand of the Chaturashra-gathi Adi-tala at the rate of 8-units per Kriya per second, should render the three kinds of Jaathi breaks of Trisra, Khanda & Mishra and the Khanda break in the end of each Avarta furnished in pages from 23 to 27 of â€˜Sangita Svararaga Sudhaâ€™.
3. The candidates should furnish a list of three Ata-tala Varnas and sing/play the Purvanga of a Varna chosen by lottery among them at the rate of 4-units (Chaturashra), 6-units (Divya-sankeerna), 8-units (Mishra-sankeerna), 12-units (Mishra-deshya-sankeerna) and 16-units (Deshya-shuddha-sankeerna) per Kriya and Uttaranga at the rate of 4-units (Chaturashra), 6-units (Divya-sankeerna) and 8-unirts (Mishra-sankeerna) per Kriya.
4. The candidates should furnish a list consisting of one Sama-graha Krithi in each of the six Talas i.e., Rupaka, Trisra-rupaka, Chapu, Adi (medium-tempo), Adi (Slow-tempo) and Adi (Trisra-gathi) furnished in â€˜Sangita Svararaga Sudhaâ€™ and sing Svara for three Muktayis chosen by lottery among each of the three kinds of Muktayis of three compositions chosen by lottery.

NOTE:- The aspirants desiring to undergo training in the above items can contact our office by telephone. To & fro second class sleeper charges between the nearest railway station of their native place and Hyderabad will be paid to the winners. The decision of the Judges will be final and no correspondence in this connection will be entertained. The winner of the first prize will never be allowed to participate in the same competition again. The candidates abiding by these rules and conditions only can participate in these competitions. The duly filled-in applications along with the entrance fee could be sent to the following address. The copies of the application (xerox copies of applications are also allowed) could be obtained by sending self-addressed and stamped envelope to the following address.

Place of competitions: Hyderabad.
Dates of competitions: 25th & 26th December, 2004.
Last date for receiving the applications: 15-12-2004.
Applications are to be sent to : Vinayamudra (Bharateeya Kalanidhi),
2009, Emerald House, Sarojinidevi Road,
(Near Parklane), Secunderabad-500 003.
E-mail: [email protected]
Phone: 040 â€“ 55495990, Cell: 98480 71794.

As the rules are very tough only 8 candidates appeared in 2004 and 12 candidates appeared in 2005 and we are compelled to stop them.

No society flourishes unless the standards in each and every field are maintained properly and vigilantly, in true competitive spirit, by the efficient, sincere, impartial, self-less and loyal people (even though I alone have framed these tough rules and regulations to serve the purpose some have took it otherwise and thought that I have framed such tough rules only to get the sales of my book, Sangita Svararaga Sudha, increased which I did not mind them being head-strong and thick-skinned). I always insist upon framing a specific syllabus for any competition absolutely avoiding the interference of the Judges at any point. But, in our country, it is not possible and many of the competitions are held only to bring out the best of the bad lot but not the best of the good lot. For example, there is no syllabus at all to the aspirants appearing either for the Talent search scheme of the kids up to the age of 14 years or for the candidates up to the age of 25 years of Music & Dance of the Central Government. Most unfortunately all the authorities concerned are non-musicians and they feel alergetic to any good advice.
I have accompanied many artists, who are graded artists of All India Radio but do not have even the basic Laya. Many of them sing the Ragalapana well but miss the Tala even while singing the composition. That is why even in the auditions of All India Radio for music some Laya-exercises must be made compulsory for all the candidates. But, incapable artists are more in number and they take every care not to introduce such stringent rules. Previously, being the founder President of the Teaching Staff Association of the Govt. Institutions of Music & Dance of Andhra Pradesh, when I have strived hard to bring out a Government Order restricting the admissions of candidates up to the age of 25 years of age into our Institutions many have tried their level best and successfully got it squashed. God alone should save our nation! Unless such stringent rules are imposed it is very difficult to maintain or develop the standards in any field. amsharma.

aravindan · Post by **aravindan** » 14 Nov 2007, 09:48

Suji ! Tanx ! Are the kids shown in U tube winners?

vira · Post by **vira** » 14 Nov 2007, 10:54

First of all, congratulations to the Carnatica team for conceptualising this contest and for their bold and innovative approach in executing it. The execution, I am certain, will be better the next time around. However. it is no mean achievement and I am happy that they have placed their focus on the music rather than on the instrument or on the musician. This is very encouraging and, more importantly, a continuation of the tradition of Carnatic music which, over the years, has absorbed and assimilated various styles, numerous "Western" instruments and at the same time has kept its core values intact.

Any contest is bound to leave behind some broken hearts; when youngsters participate, the angst is deeper. Feeling bad about not winning is very understandable but to channelise that anger into pointing fingers is pretty sad.

I was at the finals on Saturday and these are my observations (specifically on the instrument category):

Three violins and one flute in addition to the keyboard. Shashikiran pointed out that there was not a single application for the veena. Is that a reflection on the veena losing its popularity? One can merely guess.

The contest format was very sound in conception but the execution could have been much better. Eminent artistes were judges and there was a bit of a Russian roulette in picking the ragas - one for an alapana and the other for neraval and swaram. This brings me squarely to the unsavoury part of this thread - the keyboard and the artiste.

Much has been made by Mr. Haribabu and co. about Sathyanarayanan's not playing Varali. The sequence was as follows:

Sathyanarayanan played Kambhoji for the alapana round. Shashikiran made mention of people who have been expressing doubts on whether a raga like that can be played on the keyboard and he said that this is a good test for Sathyanarayanan to show what he - and the instrument - is capable of. In my opinion, Sathyanarayanan performed quite brilliantly. Each of the other artistes played very well too.

The neraval-swaram round saw Sathyanarayanan picking Varali. It was heartening to see a child having the courage to say that he is not familiar with any krithi in that raga and then TNK asked him to play Sindhubhairavi. Before Sathyanarayanan could start, Shashikiran and TNK suggested that Sathyanarayanan could play Bhairavi instead. He played and produced the gamakas that are characteristic to the raga and a nice swaram korvai. In the question round, he was asked to play the swarams in Khanda nadai which also he did admirably.

Now, to a dispassionate observer such as myself, there was nothing wrong or unethical about what happened. If I remember correctly, Jayant (the flautist) said that he is just learning the Mohanam krithi - Rama ninnu. Does that in any way take away from his wonderful performance? Why is there no mention of that at all?

There have been questions raised about the capability of the keyboard to reproduce the gamakas. As ramakriya said, the ariste matters. I have been listenining to Sathyanarayanan for a few years now and he has proven that it is possible. Is it spot on? Is it the right level of gamakam? Could it be better? Of course, anything could be better, but it is not as if what we are hearing from Sathyanarayanan is off the wall. They sound pretty much as good as any other today. I respect arunk's comments and, in this case, he has been very unbiased and his comments, as usual, are incisive and constructive.

In contrast, look at this post from Mr. Haribabu:

" I am not against Keyboard. Using Carnatic music as IDOL to Keyboard is a pathetic movement for a real classical musician. Need not express much to the Rasikas that how difficult to produce the significant sound of Carnatic music from the string instrument like veena, violin and mandolin etc."

There is a contradiction somewhere in there for sure. If someone is capable of producing the "significant sound" on an instrument that has been for long considered unfit for CM, is that not something to appreciate? Until Srinivas came up, the mandolin was not used in CM. Now, in keeping with our "Culture", we include that instrument as part of our argument against the keyboard. If we were to go merely by the instruments that were in vogue during the days of the Trinity, let us leave the violin out thereby safeguarding our "Culture". Fair argument?

My suggestion to Mr. Haribabu is to not whine about this. It does smack of "sour grapes". If the primary purpose is to preserve the so-called "sanctity" of our CM and to keep the "culture" unadulterated, the entire notion of a Carnatic Idol is ridiculous. Over the years none has attempted to identify a single Carnatic Idol, right? In that case, why even participate in an event where our "culture" is being diluted?

BTW, was Vinay Rahul one of the finalists for the POGO awards last year?

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 14 Nov 2007, 11:55

Not a single applicant for vina in Chennai..thats a more serious problem.

vira · Post by **vira** » 14 Nov 2007, 13:45

sbala: Indeed!!!! In fact, Shashikiran mentioned that even though this was an open competition with no restriction on the instrument, there was no veena, nadaswaram or sax (but, of course, that is a Western instrument

)

I was reading Mr. Haribabu's first post again just to see if he has said anything that is positive. Here is an excerpt:

" A keyboard player can make money and live happily by playing any form of music he likes as it is very easy to play on as it is mass music equipment. But a classical musician has his identity and respect because he represents countryâ€™s heritage and culture and has to protect the set standards while performing. I request music forums to think twice and organize orchestra team as judges for keyboard separately."

Hmmmm... Either the keyboard is very easy to play and is capable of producing CM at its best OR it cannot produce the nuances of CM. Which one is it? Also, what are the "set standards"? On the subject of judging, why don't we get the London Philharmonic to judge violins it being a Western instrument and all?

Mr. Haribabu, please get over this mindset. If your post (dated 9th November) had been made, say, immediately after the preliminary round which was probably in the 1st week of November, it would have lent your words some credence. I guess you were informed that your son was not a finalist on the 9th, since the finals was on the 10th. If this not an instance of "sour grapes", I don't know what else is.

A couple of irritants about the programme itself:

1. Shashikiran announced that he had requested B.Sivaraman (mridangam accompaniment) to not be particular about the shruti and perform without highlighting the shruthi differences - perhaps by moving away from the mike.
2. When Badrinath on the violin was demonstrating his kanakku to the judges in response to a question posed to him, he was abruptly asked to stop saying that the judges are convinced that his eduppu was correct and "the jambavans know that it will fall in place".

I understand that Shashikiran was running against time but both were, in my opinion, not in good taste. Conception and execution do not always go hand in hand.

Just a suggestion to all organisers that a compromise such as this is better avoided in future.