Swara Identification Exercises, Instrumental: Post Answers

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 26 Oct 2007, 22:06

BTW, what is the final answer, raga and swara breakdown, to Arun's Sample 18? I may still try it over the weekend but want to have the answer for verification.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 26 Oct 2007, 22:10

I would take suji's except for the first swara for madhyamavati (although I think hers seem right too) - I know she did a couple of revisions and I dont know if her original post reflects them. Also I dont know if the kArvai's etc. are 100% correct - I am assuming they are.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 26 Oct 2007, 22:27

VK,
My first posting of swara breakdown has all the corrections. post 343

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 26 Oct 2007, 23:12

Thanks Suji, Arun.

vageyakara · Post by **vageyakara** » 26 Oct 2007, 23:31

ArunjiANDSuji Ram,
U r absolutely correct.both rmgar and rpmagari fit in exactly to depict the quintessence of manirangu. Example Jayajaya padmanabha (swathithirunAL)for R M G R.
iN MADHYAMAVATI RPM MRS if added to and depicted like N S R P M; M R S N P it will enrich the beauty of the ragam because of complementary phrasing of the swaras.
Ramaraj

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 26 Oct 2007, 23:42

thanks sri. ramaraj (and suji) - I can now perceive it - particularly n` s r p m~; m r s n` p`

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 26 Oct 2007, 23:54

Thanks Ramaraj for taking your time to comment on our exercises.
To have an expert opinion among dabbler's adds value to this thread.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 27 Oct 2007, 06:16

arunk wrote:Actually from what I read all early works make Sri sampUrNa only (i dont have my reference with me now). But they dont necessarily call out how da is used - they mention the r-g-r vakra prayoga I believe.

I looked up my reference and I was not exactly right. Here is what I found.

SrIraga of course is mentioned in all works. On mELa based works, it is there right from swaramELakalAnidhi (mid 16th) by rAmamaTya who says it omits ga and dha (i.e. sa ri ma pa ni sa) but "occasionally includes ga and da". Many works that follow mention dha but some like above indicate it may or may not be dropped.

Now SahAji's rAglakshaNamu (late 17th to early 18th century) is the first one to mention p-d-n-p-m. It says that SrIrAga makes "sparse use of dhaivata" and as part of swara passage lists "sa sa ni dha pa dha ni pa ma" and a note that "this is an udgraha prayoga" (udgraha?)

tulAja's later work also includes "sa sa ni dha pa dha ni pa ma ma ma p pa" and says usage is there in the udgraha also. My reference notes that tulAja's info is based on SahAji's.

mudduvEnkaTamakhin notes that dhaivata is sparsely used in ascent.

sangrahacUDAmaNi (tyAgarAja's system) notes it omits ga and dha in ascent and complete in descent - sa ri ma pa ni sa ni pa dha ni pa ma ri ga ri sa

So I think evidence is clear that dha was always part of Sri (albeit used sparingly) and in particular the prayOga "pa da ni pa ma" was indeed very much there prior to Trinity. It is not a later day intrusion.

But it is possible it sort of disappeared in the middle, and some revived it i.e. as was contended during the MA sessions. I dont know what evidence for this is for the disappearance and reappearance - maybe the fact that tyAgarAja avoided it and it appeared in later compositions including the varnam (?). The fact that he avoided it is indeed curious and notable. But it was indeed part of the raga in the 17th and 18th century (and of course later).

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 27 Oct 2007, 06:33

Good work Arun. Shri SRJ would be quite proud. I wonder what he would say in reaction to this.

I also see it as a curious thing that sangrahacUDAmaNi specifies that prayogam and Thyagaraja has avoided it.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 27 Oct 2007, 22:07

Prof SRJ in his "Ragas at a glance" does mention chatusruthi-da, says it is audava-sampurna with ga, dha varja in arohana, and notes "The phrase pdnpm need not be put to frequent use".

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 27 Oct 2007, 23:47

Good analysis Arun!
I have also noticed that inspite of the mention of the 'alpatva' (sparse use) of the dhaivatam it is never ruled out inolder manuals though both gandharam and dhaivatam are excluded in the arohanam universally. I read from one of my personal notes that Thyagaraja excluded dhaivatam since it was not going with his use of Sri as a ghana raga. It of course makes sense with his ever popular construction of EndarO... Could you find any acoustic reason why the dhaivatm will be out of place in the ghana raga delineation of Sri?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 28 Oct 2007, 01:04

I dont know cmlover. I dont know what the criteria would be. It seems subjective. Going along though, to me, it does seem to have a "soft melodiousness" (cant explain it any other way) to it - sort of counter to the overall effect of ma, pa, ni and sa (i.e. the effect of a raga with ma-pa-ni-sa as a scale/structure). So I guess one could say that means something along these lines.

BTW, in the SrI tyAgarAja hrdayam (srInivAsa iyengar's) book (an old book, mine is a reprint but first was in 1922!), the charanam of nAmakusumamula includes one occurence of p-d-n-p-m usage (again author notes it is rare for SrIraga). This of course does not mean tyAgarAja himself must have had it as pAtantras vary. It just means some sing or atleast were singing even tyAgarAja's compositions with this prayOga. Note also that I could not match it to any renditions of that part of the song among the ones I have (MDR, SSI or Alathur).

In RRI's kIrthana mAla, 2 of dIkshitar's SrI krithis have dha in them (1 occurence in each).

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 28 Oct 2007, 01:10

Thanks Arun

knandago2001 · Post by **knandago2001** » 28 Oct 2007, 07:40

Arun:
SSI's rendition of naama kusuma incorporates the pdnpm prayoga in the final sangati of the pallavi - srg grs (jan ma) nsr rsn (mu ...) pdn pmr (ma.. na..) rgrs (sa..); doesn't it?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 28 Oct 2007, 20:25

knandago2001 wrote:Arun:
SSI's rendition of naama kusuma incorporates the pdnpm prayoga in the final sangati of the pallavi - srg grs (jan ma) nsr rsn (mu ...) pdn pmr (ma.. na..) rgrs (sa..); doesn't it?

To my ears, in the version I have, it sounds like p /n, p m (i.e. instead pdnpm) (?)

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 28 Oct 2007, 22:29

It is interesting to note that Ariyakkudi while notating for the Thiruppavai used Sri ragam (for 'mAyanai..') without using dhaivatam at all. In place of 'pdnpm'' he uses 'panipama' . I have a feeling that Sri revels in the long notes. Just note that the melodic equivalent of 'pdnpm' will be "srgs'n" which also is not used by Thyagaraja since it reduces the force of Sri.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 29 Oct 2007, 02:38

Just also wanted to add that SS in his wellknown 'karuNajUDu..' has also avoided dhaivatam, perhaps in sync with Thyagaraja....

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 29 Oct 2007, 04:06

Check out
http://www.rit.edu/~pnveme/raga/Raga_Sri.html
Is the HM version of Sri lacks dhaivatam acording to venkataraman ?

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 29 Oct 2007, 09:04

Vasanthakokilam is the rAga's name, add Mrs to it if you wish! Someone called you that recently.
Seriously, it did sound like bird sounds (very nice at that).
sa ga ni sa (could be a refrain?) I heard no daivatam and rishabham. Reminded me of valaji but it may be your creation vasanta kOkilam, after all!

I heard it just once. Allow me to change my mind as I hear it again as experts examine it

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 29 Oct 2007, 09:29

VK
I got it!
It is the tune played by the Gemini Twins at the beginning of their movies

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 29 Oct 2007, 09:59

CML,
I thought the mithunam music went like this:
GA..RI SA da..
RI SA da pa..
da SA da pa..

with a plaintive Sivaranjani about it

bahudari · Post by **bahudari** » 29 Oct 2007, 11:19

Sample 19.
This is my first attempt. I hope atleast I get half of it is correct:lol:.

sa..
sa g n sa
s g n s g
s g n s g p
s g p g p r s
s p g
n s p r s

{repeat above lines except last one}
s r/g n s p
g n s p r s

Probable aro/ava
Sa ga pa ni sa
sa pa ga ri sa

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 29 Oct 2007, 20:03

It starts like SGNNS, SGNSG, SGNSG P, GP DP N?R'S'
S'D M(P?)....
It has G2 and N2 On coming back I do hear D2 , somewhere higher R2.
It looks like you have ARO: SGPNS SDM(p?)RS

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 29 Oct 2007, 20:35

with a plaintive Sivaranjani about it

I too heard that but towards the end of first avarohana phrase.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 29 Oct 2007, 23:21

CML, Suji,
I goofed! It was the AIR revielle I gave the swarAs for! Gemini's was more mOhanam. started off as sa ri ga pa da--then meandered off.
To add to my confusion, the AVM logo music wasn't far off!

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 30 Oct 2007, 00:36

I don't know why I am hearing bowLi why listening to sample 19 inspite of getting a different swara breakdown. I guess a change in Sruti will lead to bowLi?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 30 Oct 2007, 01:35

i got something like

s g3 p n2 s'
s' n2 p g3 r2 s

sounds like a bit of valaji. I guess it should be close to mahati (s g3 p n2 s/s n2 p g3 s) but that r2 being emphasized does give it an individuality.

s g n`, s
s g n` s g ,
s g n` s g p ,
s g p g p r' s' ,
s , p , g ,
s g n` r s
s g n`, s
s g n` s g ,
s g n` s g p ,
s g p g p r' s' ,
s' g' n s' s' p
g , p g g? s r s

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 30 Oct 2007, 01:38

oh btw, the frequent dhIrga FLAT pa ga and sa (all very tightly related harmonically) can throw your sense of tonic off when listening to isolated notes

It did so for me.

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 30 Oct 2007, 11:06

Thanks for the participation. You all have gotten it pretty close to 100%. I will wait till tomorrow and post my answers. I will post what I played and you can tell me if it did come out that way.

I am curious about your choices for aro/ava. We will discuss tomorrow.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 30 Oct 2007, 22:15

Here is what I hear - almost like arunk - with a some of differences in the lines marked with --->

s, , , ,
s g n`, s
s g n` s g ,
s g n` s g p ,
s g p g p r' s' ,
s , p , g ,
n s n` r s --->

s g n`, s
s g n` s g ,
s g n` s g p ,
s g p g p r' s' ,
s' g' n s' s' p
g , sn sn r s ---->

With a nominal arohana avarohana : s g p s - s n p g r s

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 30 Oct 2007, 22:19

OK, CML, if you are still working on it, you can still do that. I will post my answers here.
Bahudari, welcome to the dabblers fold!!

This is what I intended to play ( this time I had specific swaras in mind as opposed to a bit of free wheeling before ).

s g n` n` s
s g n` s g ,
s g n` s g p ,
s g p g p r' s' ,
s' , p , g ,
g n` s p` r s .

s g n` n` s
s g n` s g ,
s g n` s g p ,
s g p g p r' s' ,
s' g' n s' p ( or s' g' n s' s`p as arun heard it, it is a slide from s' to p )
g n` s p` r s .

You all heard it pretty close to the above. I also understand why some of you heard Valaji. I did too. The 'sa ga' itself probably gives that impression.

I did not know Mahathi.

The Aro/Ava I had in mind is this. This is my attempt to fully incorporate the 4 quadrants in the Aro/Ava itself in a delibrate fashion.

Aro: s g p r' s`
Ava: s` p g n` s

So, there is a bit of vakram involved as it crosses quadrants.

While constructing this my challenge was to come up with unique phrases that are characteritics of this Aro/Ava arrangement. One method I used is the 'quadrant crossing' phrases since there is not much scope for unique prayogas within the normal two quadrants.

The characteristic phrases are:

s g n` s ( as Arasi heard right away )

s' g' n s' ( does not normally count as a separate prayoga ( right?), but in 4 quadrant thinking it does

. To me the this and the one above sound different enough especially when combined with other swaras )

p r' s'

g n` s p` r s ( again low and high quadrants )

s g n` s p` r' s'

s g p g p r' s'

BTW, the answer to the mind reading question is, the song structure I had in mind was a Begada pallavi by Flute Mali. If you had heard it, you will remember its unique Pallavi structure. Quite a masterpiece.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 30 Oct 2007, 22:27

very nice VK
SGNNS opening phrase I got it !

The tune is peculiar with less gamakas. Are pallavis rendered like this?

You must name it now.

I experimented something different based on your playing. I replaced G3 with G2 with a different effect. I'll give that a new name

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 30 Oct 2007, 22:35

how do you justify arohana without N?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 30 Oct 2007, 22:59

Ramakriya, thanks for pitching in. Our posts crossed.

I guess the 'p' in my intended g n` s p` r s does not stand out.

Suji, gamakas still need to be worked in. Oh, please do not think pallavis are rendered this way. For some reason, that Begada pallavi came to my mind when I was thinking about this and it acted as a rough model. I have not heard that Mali Begada pallavi for almost a year but its structure is quite unique and catchy it is etched in my memory.

BTW, when I think about justifications for the phrases, I may not have followed any commonly accepted rules. Regarding lack of 'n' in avarohana, for example: S G N S is really S G part of the Arohanam and G N` S as part of the Avarohanam. That was my thinking. May be it has to be S G G N S for tha to be strictly true, I do not know but I had to make up some characteristic phrases by such combinations.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 30 Oct 2007, 23:29

Regarding lack of 'n' in avarohana,

No, I asked absence of N in arohana

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 30 Oct 2007, 23:37

Sorry my bad, I meant to write 'absence of N in arohana'.

BTW, I have not really notated the N and P in the lower sthayi with any notation. In s g n s, the N is lower sthayi N. What is our notational convetion for that?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 31 Oct 2007, 00:17

ah trick one vk

Suji: by doing the n` s in avarohana, I think he has restricted to special prayoga g n` s" (or g' n s') and thus disallowed p n s (which would be allowed if you had s g p n s as arohana)

btw, i use the back tick ` for mandra stayi - but that is just my convention (and I chose it as it is sort of opposite to forward tick ' that I use for tara stayi - so s` s s' for 3 stayis

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 31 Oct 2007, 00:29

VK and Arun
ah! now I understand.
That was the trick!
Thanks for knocking my head.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 31 Oct 2007, 01:09

Thanks Arun on the education on the convention. I have updated my posts with the back tick for the lower sthayi.

>ah trick one vk

Suji: by doing the n` s in avarohana, I think he has restricted to special prayoga g n` s" (or g' n s') and thus disallowed p n s (which would be allowed if you had s g p n s as arohana)

Yes, that was my idea. I actually set up the Aro/Ava first and then constructed the phrases. So, when you map it back, I guess one has to look at the allowed phrases and also the not allowed phrases. I now see a problem with such things. The sample is really small to know what are all 'not included'. Actually until you pointed out 'p n a' as not allowed ( which is true ), I was not even specifically thinking of such 'not allowed' phrases since I operated only in the 'allowed' domain.

If you all agree that this scale and the prayogas are not part of any other raga in total, I will tentatively name this, taking the clue from Arasi, Vasantha Kokiladhwani.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 31 Oct 2007, 01:11

Vasantha Kokiladhwani.

congrats

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 31 Oct 2007, 02:05

Here is what I thought how a song would sound like with that Aro/Ava

http://www.sendspace.com/file/7b3yao

This is my first attempt and one shot recording and the whole song was constructed as I was playing, so please pardon the lapses. I myself noticed thala issues and I also sensed occasional resemblances to Bowli. I think that 'ga pa' along with possibly my fingers gracing through some unintended notes may be the cause. Also, let me know what you think of the free form playing at the end of the piece. It sounded a bit different from the rest of the song. I am being brave here

and posting it in this form so others will clean it up and make it better.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 31 Oct 2007, 03:36

Very nice Vk,
In its present state it does have a light music effect. With more sangatis it sure will be a full composition.
I like the anupallavi part.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 31 Oct 2007, 04:34

Vey interesting, VK. From the minimalist, your rAga has evolved into being melodic. You can fine tune it as you play more of it and get used to it.
I like the ending notes which echo the cuckoo's sounds.
In your initial playing, I noticed gamakam in the pA which I thought would sound better if played without any.
Anyway, if garuDadhwani can be sparse in swarAs, other bird sounds can be too.
While there will be discussions on whether new rAgAs are necessary even when the pros create them, we amateurs needn't worry about dabbling in them. After all, the word amateur comes from 'with a love for', and in our case, it is love of CM, rasikatvam. In sports terms, it is like playing miniature golf!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 31 Oct 2007, 06:23

vk - not sure but the rules of your raga may limit the melodic possibilites to only a handful combinations and even those (and others beside it) may involve too wide a jump for the cm like melodic flow. I am not sure though. It seems no matter how you traverse you may end up with something that sounds western/light.

For example, from ga if you ascend to pa, you then can have ga-pa-ga or ga-pa-ri'. The first one forces you to descend. It seems the only way you can reach tara-shadjam from ga (or pa) is pa-ri'-sa. You can do ga-pa-sa' - but that is going to sound pretty western

- it has the same spacing as a major triad (i think it is one of the inversions of it)

Coming down - consider ni. The only way to get to ni is from ga. And after that you must ascend. So you can do ga-ni`-ga => again very western (multiple jumps of fifths). So you are left with ga-ni`-sa.

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 31 Oct 2007, 06:54

Thanks Arasi, Suji and Arun for your insightful comments. Arasi, as you said, it is for fun and exploration in the dabbler land. Suji, the 'lightness' you talk about is what I felt also. Right, it needs some gamaka definitions and sangathis to make it more CMish. s g n`s and p r' s being its pillars, I am wondering if gamakams in those prayogas will be of some effect. p g n` s p`,,,/ r,,,,, s sequence can probably played with some gamakams.

Arun, you are 100% right about your analysis, I had the same things to deal with given the Aro/Ava. The one thing I was thinking is keeping the 'p r' jump minimal and in right dosages and resist the temptation to overuse the sa ga pa sa. But the inherent discontinuity keeps bringing in the western feel. May be a lot more gamakams will take out some of the 'westernithwam';) and may be introduce some 'vishesha prayogas'

Above all else, in the hands of someone else, it can take on special forms and interpretations.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 31 Oct 2007, 07:54

I am wondering how we can incorporate gamaka in this scale.
G would be plain in absence of R in Aro as in SG
R would agian be plain as in PR
same with N

Even valaji is plain and can be played on keyboard easily to some extent
You need to get this raga to valaji status at least

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 31 Oct 2007, 08:25

Raga vasantha kOkiladhvani
Aro s g p r' s'
Ava s' p g n` s
Lyric

P: vasantha kOkilam kUviyathE
(the spring cuckoo cooed)

A: malargaL ellAM malarnthathE
(all the flowers bloomed)
C: idhayaM... idhayam kaLi koNDathE
(My heart.. My heart went in ecstasy)

The raga is too difficult to sing since it is way out for human voice to traverse from tara rishabham to mantra shadjam. But I have tried to give the computer generated melody followed by the song. Of course don't laugh

since it is dedicated to our dear vk

http://www.mediafire.com/?9ni2xtuzjwp

I can post the notes. But it will be fun (call it next exercise) for you to figure it out!

VK

Sorry too busy raking the Fall leaves to participate Fully. I missed the Fun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 31 Oct 2007, 08:28

You need to get this raga to valaji status at least

'atleast to valaji' you say.. Miles to go before we get there..

Gamakam occasionally seems to give one a few liberties as well, I think. For example, I think it would be OK if I do this to reduce the
jumpiness a bit. To execute G N` how about G and then start at S and slide to N`. If it is G S N` it will be a violation of the avarohana but we can make it sound quite different from a straight G S N`.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 31 Oct 2007, 08:46

vasanthakokilam wrote:To execute G N` how about G and then start at S and slide to N`. If it is G S N` it will be a violation of the avarohana but we can make it sound quite different from a straight G S N`.

You can do g (s)n` /s

where the (s)n` is like a nokku on ni from sa. Note that to say this is a violation would imply you are
1. Taking swaras to be flat notes
2. You are saying that aro/avaro determines the pitch contours of the melodic framework behind the raga.

Both IMO are counter to what CM is about and so using it to define a CM melodic entity would shall we say oxymoronic

I think suji is right in that ga has to be flat.

Giving kampita/nokku type of gamaka on ri is not effective because you are reaching from pa - a slide is the only way i.e. p /r' s.

You can do slide from g to ni (no need for sa - ga and ni are harmonically related and so its like s p).

You can do slide down from pa to ga in ga-pa-ga (like in mohanam and hamsadwani)

Besides slides like these the only possibility seems to be he nokku/emphasis type of gamaka on ni in n`-s.

I think extra swaras in avarohana may make for a better raga in terms of melodic continuity. Coming down you had s' g p n`s. That is a lot of ground covered by very few intervals. A dha or a ma would perhaps make things better? For some reason I am correlating with how many ragas in CM have fewer swaras in arohana but always "more rounded" in avarohana (of course not always the case - you have ragas like bahudari which is the opposite)

Arun

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 31 Oct 2007, 08:59

Ah, appear our aimable star 'amateur' of CM!

continuing your lines, bard,

pin
ilaiyudirndu pani mEviyum
nam
vasantakOkilam kUviyadE!

then,
though the leaves fell and snow approached
our
spring cuckoo sang...

While we were indoors analyzing bird sounds, you were in communion with Nature and listening to birds sing!
The huge maple in our back garden is turning color. Soon, I would be out raking and all I would hear then is the honking of migrating canadian geese...

Arun,
I saw your post just now.
VK may have to add a note or two, as you say, for CML to set my lines to tune!