Swara Identification Exercises, Instrumental: Post Answers

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 22 Oct 2007, 09:24

cmlover wrote:the artiste has to compromise on the korvais which will force him to land on non-nyasa svarams

While this is a true statement and happens occassionally, it does not pertain to the TNS clip Arun posted earlier (there is nothing that an artiste of that caliber gets "forced" to do).

The clip has many interesting complexities, all volitional on the part of the artiste, including 1) artistic license (the S-D usage in avarohana is only one example) 2) swarakshara 3) laya 4) symmetry, etc... which are way beyond the scope of this discussion. We can't learn painting by looking at examples from the ceiling of the sistine chapel where every rule from the composition book might have been broken.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 22 Oct 2007, 10:17

Suji
Any chance it is Rishabha varjya?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 22 Oct 2007, 10:21

Sample 16:
here is the swara breakdown after some struggle ( a good lesson to realize how hard it is for me to decode what Suji termed as simple, and the long hard path it is to reach where you all are )

P S, S N3 P M,
R2 P, P M1 G3 M1,
R S, S R S N,
P S, R, G M,

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 22 Oct 2007, 10:24

cmlover wrote:Suji
Any chance it is Rishabha varjya?

Please look for modified questions in the question thread

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 22 Oct 2007, 10:32

And a nominal Ar/Av can be:

S R2 G3 M1 P S

S N3 P M G M R S

That will make it Budharanjani

I looked up and a Mysore Vasudevacharya krithi seems to be the ony one in this raga

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 22 Oct 2007, 11:03

The raga isn't rare- just that not often heard- but taught to students

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 22 Oct 2007, 11:04

vasanthakokilam wrote:Sample 16:
here is the swara breakdown after some struggle ( a good lesson to realize how hard it is for me to decode what Suji termed as simple, and the long hard path it is to reach where you all are )

P S, S N3 P M,
R2 P, P M1 G3 M1,
R S, S R S N,
P S, R, G M,

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 22 Oct 2007, 11:21

Another candidate then:

bangaaLa

S R2 G3 M1 P M1 R2 P S
S N3 P M1 R2 G3 R2 S

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 22 Oct 2007, 11:32

the long hard path it is to reach where you all are

you are a dedicated student

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 22 Oct 2007, 21:07

vasanthakokilam wrote:6) Ramakriya, can we reliably take it that you pegged it as SM based on the 'short d' and touching on Ma and NOT the swara sequence itself?

For me the short d was of less consequence than the ma anuswara. However that was something I remebered too having read/heard somewhere. As I indicated earlier, the phrase Uday played was very similar to a song I was very familiar.

-Ramakriya

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 22 Oct 2007, 21:09

My take
P S', S' S' PM
R P, PPMG
MR,SSS 'N
SS, R,GM
It is SR2G3M1PN3S'
dhaivata varjyam
Places perhaps in the sarasangi mela .
Certainly 'not' nalinakanthi

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 22 Oct 2007, 21:12

Very lovely tune! Thanks Suji!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 22 Oct 2007, 21:30

i got same breakdown as VK. The raga I think is pURNacandrika (p-s + snp + m to ri i.e no m g r all fit the bill. No r g m r s but that if it is that raga, that would have been a dead give away)

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 22 Oct 2007, 21:49

Arun, I also thought of Purnachandrika but there was no 'r g m r s' as you pointed out and also Suji said the raga is not commonly presented in concerts. Purnachandrika does not satisfy that clue since 'telisi rama chandra' is there.

It is great that you also got the same swara breakdown. As I wrote before, it just was not easy for me and the added discouraging point was that Suji said it is simple

I have to get back to the basics and figure out the root cause for the difficulties ( 'aural block' ) I faced. 'p m g m' was the first pattern that stood out right away for me, everything else I had to work at it. I am also trying to put in place your suggestions. I got the sruthi right and then for each swara which of the 's', 'p', 's' it is close to and then see if it is higher or lower than that and build from there.

I am working on training myself with the virtual keyboard in identifying individual notes and I was getting a bit better. And then this exercise arrived at the right time. I thought it will be a great test to see if there is improvement. Realization: Even if there is, it is quite miniscule. Identifying single notes in reference to a chosen 'sa' is one thing but getting to a sequence of notes in the context of a song like this is quite a different matter.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 22 Oct 2007, 22:22

cmlover wrote:Very lovely tune! Thanks Suji!

Thanks!

doesn't it sound like "cutting a piece of wood with a saw" ? (better said in native tongue)

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 22 Oct 2007, 23:15

Suji
You reemember the jhankaarabhramari we discussed with DRS

Now listening carefully, I concur with VK and Arun but since the dhaivatam is missing not sure about the raga. Since the nishaadam is abit dicy, If we can agree on N2 I will vote for Ravichandrika
ala Niravadhi sukhada...

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 22 Oct 2007, 23:17

Ravichandrika ala Niravadhi sukhada...

Given a chance anyone will present this in a concert

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 22 Oct 2007, 23:19

cml - ravichandrika has no pa.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 22 Oct 2007, 23:28

May be I shouldn't be saying "not so often heard" since I am going by my search of concerts and reviews.

But all of you are on track in some way or the other. I'll wait some more time if we have more answers.

Actually I am learning more here...

Nice going folks

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 22 Oct 2007, 23:30

Looks like bangALa - that's why Suji Ram says "it is taught to students, but not often heard in concerts".

How often do you hear giri rAja sutA tanaya sadaya in a concert - But it is taught to almost every student!

Just by going by the line presented, the scale could be

s r g m p m p s

s n p m g m r s

(I know that does not take care of the r p s - but I am supposed to derive the scale from one line, right

)

-Ramakriya

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 22 Oct 2007, 23:45

Folks! just listen to this
http://www.mediafire.com/?eazc213gdjl
You must excuse me since I am an ardent Thiruppugazh devotee

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 22 Oct 2007, 23:56

cmlover wrote:Folks! just listen to this
http://www.mediafire.com/?eazc213gdjl
You must excuse me since I am an ardent Thiruppugazh devotee

I hope Lord gaNESa and Lord murugA don't have a conflict!

This is a priya rAga of gaNESa-reason for Sri Tyagaraja to compose on gaNESa..

Nice attempt I like the way you end it in tune...

Please post words and meaning for our understanding.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 23 Oct 2007, 00:15

appA murugA, ayyA murugA ,muthikkaruLtharuM vitthA vElanE
(Oh my Father muruga! Oh my Master muruga! Oh vElanE (one who has the spear) the one who is the seed leading to blessed Liberation!)

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 23 Oct 2007, 00:20

Congrats Ramapriya!
Of course VK guessed it first!

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 23 Oct 2007, 04:37

I presented this clip for 4 reasons-

1. I literally wanted to do away with Nishadam and Daivatam after discussions on K and SM

2. Wanted to see how one can perceive this raga in absence of N D(in ava)
3. Made it peppy so people can relax- not much gamaka in swaras
4. Arohana and avarohana exercise was just to see how creative one can get by listening to a short clip. A true answer was not expected.

offcourse I made sure it had all the swaras spanning this scale. I was also throwing away hints-maybe without it the discussion could have been more interesting?

Ok the final analysis

I presented bangAla- a vakra audava-shadava raga of 29 mela dhIraSankarAbharanam
It has D and N missing in Aro and D missing in Ava

SRGMPMRPS
SNPMRGRS

Great VK that you could get the swara breakdown! Thought you will blow it out for us. I was hoping you will come out pat with the raga name and kriti itself since you mentioned you learnt a kriti in bangAla. I could see that you were trying to place the scale by looking at the raga database. That's why I did not give away earlier.

CML, I could see your struggle- mainly I think you were catching the wrong Sruti initially. You placed it in sarasAngi mela- interesting though. Since D is anyway missing. I learnt something here.

Arun agreed with VK on swaras. Interesting you brought pUrnacandrikA. But then doesn't it have D? One can have PS instead PD PS, but I made sure no swara is left out. But you enlightened me with pUrnacandrikA now.

Thanks CML for refering to DRS kriti. Indeed the cittaswara there has very little D and that too in mandra stayi. Can you forward me the notations to that kriti. I don't have it. Interesting discussion in that thread.

I can accept all your nominal aro ava: but did someone miss seeing RP?
I know Ramakriya mentioned that there is no RPS' in this clip. That makes me wonder is RPS used in the T's composition. I will have to play and check it out myself.
I thought this is a creative exercise to look for phrases and come up with aro ava: But then phrases and scales clash here.

I like these combos in this raga P/S', P`S, N`P`, R/P, PMGM, SRN`S, R, GM

How difficult was this to place in 29 mela?

Hope you enjoyed as much I did.

the kriti girirAja sutA starts with RP

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 23 Oct 2007, 05:12

Suji, Great reasons for the exercise and a great sounding rendition as well!!

Great VK that you could get the swara breakdown! Thought you will blow it out for us. I was hoping you will come out pat with the raga name and kriti itself since you mentioned you learnt a kriti in bangAla.

Yes, I did learn Girirajasudha but I did not latch on to that ragam when I listened to your clip.

But you say that you expected me to id the krithi itself. Is your clip from Girirajasudha or you made it up yourself? I do not recall these phrases in Girirajasudha. I thought it was from some other krithi or you made this one up yourself.

After I got the swara breakdown, I made up the Ar/Av and then looked up the raga database. Budharanjani did match it for the most part. Do you see any violations except RP? Since you led me away from this raga with the hint, I then settled on BangALa.

The method of swara breakdown employed by me is far from ideal. I gave up on matching it swara by swara after getting frustrated with the struggle. I converted it to G ( before I saw your other upload ) and then by trial and error matched it with the flute. I also got significant help from the significant other

I need to improve quite a bit before I get comfortable with decoding on the fly and I should not even take credit for this decoding.

So, it the swara break down correct?

How often do you hear giri rAja sutA tanaya sadaya in a concert - But it is taught to almost every student!

True, not often. It was taught to me as my first krithi but I am not sure if this is the usual thing either. On the rare occasions where I have played this for a few people, one or two of them have recognized the krithi.

There are three occasions where I heard this krithi.

1) 25 years or so back, within a short time of learning the krithi, someone on AIR during the 9:15 to 10:30 concert, sang this as their first piece. My ears perked up. I do not recall who the vidwan was, it has to be a big name, atleast mid-tier, to get that AIR slot.

2) I found this in Sudha Raghunathan's commercial CD "Krithis on Vinayaka"

3) Yesterday when I searched for this after doing this exercise, I found one on esnips.com. It sounded like dual Mandolin. Professional enough that it is probably Srinivas and Co.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 23 Oct 2007, 05:45

vasanthakokilam wrote:Do you see any violations except RP?

VK, base on aro/avaro you gave

S R2 G3 M1 P S
S N3 P M G M R S

R-P is certainly allowed albeit in right dosage (i.e. you cannot have jumps galore). It is not correct to conclude that by default jumps are violation of grammar unless aro/avaro says so. The R-P, G-D, N-R etc. all figure often enough in ragas which include the intermediate swara(s)

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 23 Oct 2007, 06:02

Suji
I have emailed you!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 23 Oct 2007, 06:18

In case you guys are interested here is a concert rendering by the inimitable Somu accompanied by none other than LGJ
http://www.mediafire.com/?8rtaugi3ld1

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 23 Oct 2007, 06:18

nice exercise suji. I dont know much about pUrNacandrika but I guess there are 2 ways to interpret "p-d-p-s"
1. You cannot have d-s. It must be d-p-s. So it is talking about from da to sa, and that one cannot ascend from da, and should descend to pa and then ascend (if needed).
2. From pa to sa, it MUST be vakra and thus pa-da-pa-sa. (So #2 is more restrictive than #1 and it does imply #1).

My guess is it is #1 in pUrNachandrika, and not #2 (i.e. as a MUST be vakra), although p-d-p-s is perhaps "more typical". So you have pdps commonly but you can also have something like s'dps.

But this is just a guess and I dont have any data to back it up. Maybe Uday can offer insights.

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 23 Oct 2007, 06:50

cmlover wrote:In case you guys are interested here is a concert rendering by the inimitable Somu accompanied by none other than LGJ
http://www.mediafire.com/?8rtaugi3ld1

Wonderful. Best version I have heard so far. Thanks CML.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 23 Oct 2007, 07:14

Vk,
Thanks.
You got the swaras right.
This is a ciTTaswara. I played from my memory, and I think I am right. There are 2 more lines to it and I working on playing it. Try playing these 2 lines as soon as you end the anupallavi or charana and before you go back to pallavi. It will be a treat when you combine to this kriti.
I have been hunting this kriti for long. I too bought a CD of Sudha's vinayaka- actually after noticing this kriti on it. (now I lost it including all my CD collection(40 #) stolen from car

-putting all eggs in a basket- I hope the burglar will be initiated to CM). I also had U srinivas as well as a beautiful rendition by none other than MSG. There should be one by TNS on S priya site. But none of this has the ciTTAswara.

Thanks CML. Now I can learn pUrnacandrikA.
Thanks Arun for your expln. I thought I will take a break and you posted the next one!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 23 Oct 2007, 07:33

Arun
Is there an apasvaram at the beginning

r you have 'doctored' it

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 23 Oct 2007, 07:52

cml - That first "sub-sample" was the one that needed to be adjusted "most" in terms of sruthi and so imperfections may have been introduced by the software (pitch adjustments works well for a few semi-tones/kattais and then after that it gets imperfect).

If needed I can re-post without any sruthi adjustments.

Arun

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 23 Oct 2007, 07:53

Arun
The case for pUrnachandrika is indeed strong but is annulled due to the way the R is played. In pUrnachandrika R2 is never played flat (as in the bangaala clip), but rather as a slide from G3. The kArvai commas have been placed slightly wrongly by VK and blessed by you

. Here's the "corrected version:
P, s, s N P M R-, P, P M G M R-, s, s R S N P-, S, R, G M

The new sample, "triple threat" is an excellent illustration of .. , ... and ... ! Keep going!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 23 Oct 2007, 07:59

Uday_Shankar wrote:The case for pUrnachandrika is indeed strong but is annulled due to the way the R is played. In pUrnachandrika R2 is never played flat (as in the bangaala clip)

Thanks Uday. I did not know that (or have not paid attention - yet). I will look it up.

Btw, the flavor of that very last ri (in s, r, g m) - something which would also occur in purnachandrika (?)

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 23 Oct 2007, 08:03

I hope the burglar will be initiated to CM.

Sorry to hear about the loss of your CD collection.

I was not taught the chittaswara. I will try what you suggested.

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 23 Oct 2007, 08:20

arunk wrote:Btw, the flavor of that very last ri (in s, r, g m) - something which would also occur in purnachandrika (?)

Yep!

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 23 Oct 2007, 08:39

P, s, s N P M R-, P, P M G M R-, s, s R S N P-, S, R, G M

Oh, thanks for correcting this. I saw that immediately when VK posted but forgot about it.

R- P- are important representations on how those swaras were played.
May be the first P should also be P- ?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 23 Oct 2007, 09:21

What does the '-' in 'P-' ,'R-' signify?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 23 Oct 2007, 10:10

Welcome back visiting prof

The subtle points are highly educational..

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 23 Oct 2007, 11:10

First crack at the first phrase;
R2 M1 P nD2n ~M1 P R2 G2 R2 S

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 23 Oct 2007, 13:02

2 MPMGRSRN`~S,R- P,MGRS
3 PNS'R'M'R'S'NPM RRS
1 RMP NN(DX) MP RGRS (This one is off Sruti a bit. It appears it has a D but that might be due to Sruti being Off a little?)

They all appear to be in 22 mela.
I think I got the raga(s?). bells are ringing towards a raga for the 2nd one
inference later.
Nice exercise.

The swara breakdown was adjusted since post 347

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 23 Oct 2007, 22:04

good start cmlover. Although both you and suji perhaps over-analyzed #1 a tad too much (but then the tonal quality here is not ideal owing to the sruthi adjustment).

suji - very good indeed. I dont know yet about the correctness of your full breakdown, but I can tell that you are a bit off for #3.

I think once you get one raga, the objective here may become obvious

Arun

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 23 Oct 2007, 22:18

arunk wrote:suji - very good indeed - but a bit off for #3.

I think once you get one raga, the objective here may become obvious

Arun

You mean towards the end? This exercise I could work on without the aid of violin. I have no bow to play until week end. So I have been dabbling my violin like a vIna. Interesting sound I discovered. So that OFF a bit is due to not able to place it properly.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 23 Oct 2007, 22:21

not just there

Although I must admit that the last part for some reason seemed a bit tricky to label. I mean the contours are familiar for that raga - but still I found it a bit hard to label.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 23 Oct 2007, 22:31

not just there

I made corrections to my #3. "The raga is showing up in the middle" ?

I feel handicapped without violin, but then I love to analyze without an instrument now. I can do it just by listening too but not fully sometimes-
It is my aim to achieve success at ID without any instrument aid.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 23 Oct 2007, 22:47

Correct! - although my labelling for the first swara in #3 is a bit different but I can see yours too.

#1 I think is i would label as "pndm" differently - perhaps as p/n (p)n m although I am not 100% sure. But the reason is if you know the raga (i think you do), then you would know about why i.e. w.r.t da

Arun

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 23 Oct 2007, 22:52

p/n (p)n m

Ya, the first N is for sure coming from p and the second N is a bit flat and going to M. It looks like it is played all on one string-The SA string so the continuity is there. There is no D.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 24 Oct 2007, 04:36

So are my swara break-downs correct?
I'm not giving the ragas. Just want to hear from others too.