Swara Identification Exercises, Instrumental: Post Answers

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 03 Oct 2007, 01:50

cmlover wrote:I took the violin recital of a 'famous' (solid shruti) vidvaan and doctored the notes.

What exactly do you mean by doctoring the notes? I did not understand that..

-Ramakriya

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 03 Oct 2007, 02:45

ramakriya wrote:What exactly do you mean by doctoring the notes? I did not understand that..

-Ramakriya

I guess he used audacity program to reverse the 2 notes

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 03 Oct 2007, 05:53

You know, the doctored version has a nice ring to it.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 03 Oct 2007, 09:36

I was out of town on a day trip and just came back. Amazing an exercise was posted and answered all in that time!! I will see later on if I can identify the doctored swaras myself. Thanks CML.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 03 Oct 2007, 23:59

Sample 7

g'r's'npg srgpnr' gpnns'

r2 g2 n3

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 04 Oct 2007, 02:18

p(n)s'(n)pgr srgpp(n) p,ps's'
I resere the right to modify

() is the anusvaram
A very difficult raga to identify in view of the slowing down

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 04 Oct 2007, 02:49

The first swara seems tricky for some reason. After a while your ears start playing tricks

Arun

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 04 Oct 2007, 03:03

arunk wrote:The first swara seems tricky for some reason. After a while your ears start playing tricks

Arun

True,
it now seems like r's'npgrsrgpnr'gpnns'

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 04 Oct 2007, 03:03

That is perhaps due to your incomplete surgery

Use the laser hereafter

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 04 Oct 2007, 03:11

I wanted to post it as-is and then thought may be we should keep it easier. I did not change any notes/swaras. The pitches, timbre etc, are pretty much the same as the original although its possible there were minor fluctuations - i am still amazed how software can do this this well!

I actually thought it was ri from the beginning (not ga). But when I saw the pa in cmlover's answer, and also now I went back to the vocalist portion (and he says pa but a much flatter one), my mind started playing tricks. Perhaps another reason is the pa-ri pitch relationship (like sa-pa).

I think it could be a (p)/r' . The r' is there but very briefly touched upon and it actually is more obvious in the slowed down version.

cmlover btw the last swara in your answer may be better represented as (p)n i.e. ni from pa, as opposed to pa (going to ni).

Also for refrain I think suji's is the correct answer except that the first "ni" is delivered with emphasis (i think nokku) and is really like (p)(s)n i.e. quick forceful ascent from p to ni with a brief tinge of sa. Thus the labelling again can get confusing

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 04 Oct 2007, 03:42

The anusvaras being fleeting always kill me! I wonder how you guys get over. In this case the mridangist's chapu muffles the note (though they usually choose the pancamam for synchrony). Also the violinist plays exactly 8 svaras between the two chapus showing efficient tala control!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 04 Oct 2007, 03:52

i find them tough too. Its actually easier just to "mimic" compared to then break it down to swaras/anuswaras. In this case my mind still plays trick for the first swara. I am a bit puzzled as to why it was tough

I think it could be because a firm reference point was not established PRIOR to it. It is the first swara and it is a quick slide up. If instead, one had a solid "sa" in say tara stayi before this swara, then maybe we would not have had so much trouble. It would be an interesting experiment.

Arun

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 04 Oct 2007, 03:55

I avoided representing anuswara, glide etc, since once we know the raga we know that certain swaras have to be played that way.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 04 Oct 2007, 03:58

but suji slide to r' can be taken from sa, ni and pa even in hamsadhwani.

So while in many cases representing all anuswaras is overkill (and not needed as it is implied by the context incl. previous swara, and also the melodic differences are pretty subtle in many cases), it can be helpful in some cases.

But in general I think people just know how to create the necessary sound "as a single unit". Breaking it down seems hard.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 04 Oct 2007, 04:08

arunk wrote:but suji slide to r' can be taken from sa, ni and pa even in hamsadhwani.

So while in many cases representing all anuswaras is overkill (and not needed as it is implied by the context incl. previous swara, and also the melodic differences are pretty subtle in many cases), it can be helpful in some cases.

But in general I think people just know how to create the necessary sound "as a single unit". Breaking it down seems hard.

Yes, depending on the combination of swaras where r' occur or a stand alone r'

Infact the descending r comes from g

(I had this confusion in my first posting where I picked on wrong pitch and thought g' was first and went down to g when actually it is r. My mind still plays the trick)

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 05 Oct 2007, 23:37

Sample 8: raga Ananda bhairavi. Working on the rest of the Qs

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 06 Oct 2007, 00:12

Here is the swaras, in Ananda Bhairavi - svara prastAra for marivEre

p d2 p p d2 p m1 g2 m1 p m g3 g3 m1 , g m1 p d1 m p m g r g2 m1 || p, p, p,

Note: In p d2 p, p d2 p - The dhaivata is almost intoned nishAda.

I think this gives all answwres to the questions by Arun

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 06 Oct 2007, 03:17

Anandabhairavi

pdp pdp mgm pmggm gmpdppmgrgm p p p
ma ri ve

g 3 can be heard at 0.04- as ggm
g 2 follows immediately at 0.05 ending in d1 0.06 as gmpd
all other gâ€™s are g2
d2 is in the beginning pdp pdp
m1
r2
there is no "s"
as well as "n"

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 06 Oct 2007, 04:37

I felt this initially and even when I slow it to snail pace it remains so

ramakriya wrote:g m1 p d 1m p m g r g2 m1

sujiram wrote:gmpdppmgrgm

To me, these three highlighted are pretty ambigious in terms of labelling. They are almost like identical pm/p pm/p pm/p i.e. all similar slides that utilize ma and pa (maybe the first one starts a bit higher from d1). The initial slide down from pa could be something I am imagining and I can discern it only when I slowed it down. In fact all I am sure of is aureally they all sound quite similar - this is very obvious to me when I slowed it down.

But labelling as gmpd*pppgr or gmpd*mmmgr all seems "bogus" (?). Perhaps gmpdppmg like suji said is the best.

Arun

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 06 Oct 2007, 04:47

gmpd*mmmgr

Initially I too noted it down like this. Then I heard the 2 swaras slightly higher and concluded it should be ppmgr.

p and m confused me in other places as well but soon settled down.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 06 Oct 2007, 04:58

They are not flat - slow it down and tell me how the three compare against each other.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 06 Oct 2007, 07:00

gmpdppmgrgm

on slowing I still hear this. The PP is more like dPmP

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 08 Oct 2007, 22:31

Ahir Bhairavi or Chakravaham (if you like)

Will work on the notes, time permitting..

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 08 Oct 2007, 22:33

sample 9 (nice job Suji)

I dont know if I got this right as somehow I think we would have tried valachi or malayamarutham before chakravaham

. But I hear M1 - maybe I am off in my swara breakdown.

Raga: chakravAham
Swarastanams: so R1, G3, M1, D2, N2 besides S P
D , /N D P M P D P , M G R S /G(R?) R S , S N` D` N` S R S R G M P ,

Arun
Arun

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 08 Oct 2007, 23:46

CML, Arun,

I am happy that I could get cakravAkam across to you.
I was testing my skills...

This is a ciTTaswara for gajAnanayutam. Can anyone guess the rest?

The swaras are correct!
G(R?)- no doubt for G there. RRS would sound different. It was trick to play this G

I do get confused with valaji and malayamarutham a lot but not these with cakravAkam- yes the M makes the difference to rule out both.
One can get confused with sUryakAntam- but I myself have not heard enough alapanas or kritis in that rAga.

I learnt ahir bhairavi has the same scale as cakravAkam (thanks cml for mentioning that) but it does sound so different. In HM one can hear R,R, R, N R'R' such elongation which we don't see in CM
So why did CML mention ahir bhairavi before cakravAkam?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 09 Oct 2007, 00:15

glad i got it right. G(R?), the only reason I had doubt is that it had more of a r1 flavor than G3 but i could sense it was indeed reaching as high as G3 (i.e. much higher than R1) - but perhaps touching it briefly.

BTW, I am sure you know this - chakravAham is a (not that uncommon) tamizh pronounciation of the raga as used in tamizh contexts which would chakravAgam (as you may know chakravAkam cannot be written in tamizh).

Just like some people say abhOgi, abhEri, and others say AbhOgi, AbhEri; and kAmbOdi vs kAmbhOji, you have chakravAham/chakravAgam vs. chakravAkam.

But yes the official (sanskrit) name is chakravAkam.

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 09 Oct 2007, 00:47

Suji

ESP is what I( got! I was searching gajananytam to track you down but my copy of SSI version is too bad!
I love AB better than Chakravaham; especially I love BMK's 'pibare rAmarasm' above all!

You have done a great job. Congrats!

Now here is my MIDI version (play in Window Media player)
http://www.mediafire.com/?5xmrh3ppmyi

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 09 Oct 2007, 00:47

chakravAham/chakravAgam vs. chakravAkam.

Yes I understand this- no problem..
Sometimes where there is a really "h" sound in sanskrit it becomes 'g' too.
I think people use it interchangeably...

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 09 Oct 2007, 01:08

cmlover wrote:Suji

ESP is what I( got! I was searching gajananytam to track you down but my copy of SSI version is too bad!
Now here is my MIDI version (play in Window Media player)
http://www.mediafire.com/?5xmrh3ppmyi

You got it CML! Gamakas have come out well in the midi
I too have the same version of SSI.

The etula brOtuvO of T is again different.
There is one PapanaSam Sivan's kriti too I cannot recollect.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 09 Oct 2007, 01:45

EsanE intha Ezhaikkiranga innum thAmasaamA
is the one by P Sivan!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 09 Oct 2007, 02:00

eTula brOtuvO teliya of T is a favorite. In film songs, EDU koNDalavADa, venkaTa ramaNA! comes to mind.

ninjathegreat · Post by **ninjathegreat** » 09 Oct 2007, 03:19

arasi, are you talking about film songs or the screaming of the throng at tirupati

???? Govinda goooooovinda!!!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 10 Oct 2007, 01:24

Good job Suji with making sample9. I also id'd it as chakravakam after a few listens. Great you got across the raga with a relatively small segment. With respect to swara identification, I am still scratching around in the basics. I am glad I got the ending note to be 'pa' and the sequences just before that were in the second quadrant.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 10 Oct 2007, 01:26

Sample 10: On first listen, they sound close. CML, I like this one, quite educational, given Arun's suggestion before that kalpanaswara is a gold mine for developing the skill to decode raga lakshana passages to swaras.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 10 Oct 2007, 01:40

vk,

Here is another "trick" that may be useful in unravelling the swaras once you have a good handle of a certain swara (like the ending pa).

Let us say you are sure of a certain swara at a point. Let is call it "X"
Let us say you want to decode the swara BEFORE X.

First is to determine if that swara is lower or higher than X. Or are the swaras before X such that they ASCEND to X or are they such that they DESCEND to X. You obviously need some pitch sense for this. And of course knowing what the raga is, and thus the constituent swarasthanams is a mandatory pre-requisite for this.

Once you know that it is ASCENT/DESCENT then here is a trick to take an initial guess.

In CM, swaras generally (a very high % of the time but NOT ALWAYS) follow the order of the raga structure. I posted about this in my Ragas and Scales - Part 2 post in my blog.

What does this mean? In cakravaham if swaras before that "pa", ASCEND to "pa", then the chances that the swara immediately before the pa is a ma, is high - quite high. So you can sing ma-pa (or play ma-pa) in the same sruthi of the sample and see if it matches (this is not necessarily very straightforward as the swaras may take gamakas and you need to have some idea of them). Similarly if you see that the swaras DESCEND to pa, then the chances of the swara before pa being a dha in cakravAham (or a mela raga) is high.

If you can sense 2 swaras ascend and reach a pa, you can try gmp and see if it matches.

You can use this to try to take initial guesses of swaras around the "X" you are sure of, and play/sing at the sample's sruthi to confirm/adjust your answer.

Hope this helps. I use this a lot.

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 10 Oct 2007, 02:02

Thanks Arun.

>Hope this helps. I use this a lot.

Yes, definitely. It atleast will get me to feel good with such incremental progress instead of getting overwhelmed by the thing when considered as a whole. I will incorporate your suggestion.

The thing I have been doing a little bit is, change the pitch of the sample to 'G' kattai which matches my flute. Then I experiment around with the flute to match the melody a little bit at a time with karvai notes acting as the syncing points. With your suggestion, I can do that with vocal which is much faster and a lot more portable

so I can do that anywhere without having to much around with audacity. (Adjusting the pitch of the sample to 'G' is not trivial for me, so while posting the sample, if you know the kattai, please mention that also instead of posing that as a question.)

Thanks.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 10 Oct 2007, 02:14

vk,

When you listen to any sample - are you able to perceive the "sa" pitch? I am assuming so. Then - you can use an online keyboard and match the western key to that perceived sa. Then you just need to known the western key to kattai mapping. Some keyboards (or one I remember) does print out the key when you press it. But you can match your flute's G against the key - and you know that is G. From that you can figure out the kattai of the sample.

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 10 Oct 2007, 03:04

Arun
You are confusing. Once you match the keyboard key to the 'sa' (say) that you identified then find out what key it is. Say it is F# then it is 4.5 kaTTai. Why do you have to match this with flute's G ?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 10 Oct 2007, 03:06

that is because online keyboards dont have labels for the keys

So if you have knowledge of western keyboard that you know which key is which, ignore that suggestion

Arun

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 10 Oct 2007, 03:25

VK,
Thanks, Good that you guessed the final swara 'P'

Also try playing the arohana and avarohana of cakravAkam a few times then you can catch the remaining swaras. Play also mandara stayi-a clue

My violin pitch is D#, this may help, but try without converting.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 10 Oct 2007, 06:40

Allow me for a small detour on the raga itself and how the various quadrants play a role in bringing out the raga identity.

Chakravaham poorvangam is MMG and uttarangam is HK, right?

1) Consider up to: D , /N D P M P D P , M G

This should not be much different from HK unless the prayogas and gamakas are specific to chakravaham. What is the situation here?

2) Same thing here regarding MMG. R S /G(R?) R S , S

3) The sequence D P , M G MMG. R S does not belong to either MMG or HK and so should be identifiable with Chakravaham. Here it crosses quadrants but the change happens a bit far away from the quadrant cross over point.

4) But R S , S N` D` N` S crosses the quadrant but the changes are close to the quadrant cross over point and so I would expect the raga identity to come out more apparently and readily with such cross overs.

5) This part: S R S R G M P , I could not help associate too closely with MMG.

On first listen, my impression was, "it sounds like MMG ( due to the ending ) but it is not (due to other places)" and then on the second listen I zeroed in on Chakravaham based on the overall familiarity with the raga ( and not due to swara decoding of course ).

Question for you all is: Which part brings out the chakravaham identity quite clearly for you? Is it a prayoga that crosses the quadrant boundary like 3 and 4 and if so is 4 more so than 3 ?

Second, I realize I am taking too much a scale oriented approach here. Is chakravaham for the most part a scale defined raga?

Third, though the above analysis is with respect to chakravaham, a more general question is, for many, if not most, scale defined ragas, does the identity come out clearly when the prayoga crosses quadrants?

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 10 Oct 2007, 11:01

here's my answer to sample 10

http://www.sendspace.com/file/ue1rxo

MDNS', NPM NPMPG~, NPG~G~MRS -Vocalist 0-0.06 sec
GMDNS', S'NR'S' NR'S'NP, GG~,MRS -Violinist -0.06-0.13 sec

The reply by the violinist to the vocalist is quite different.
I spotted the first difference at the beginning itself. The vocalist starts with M and violinist at G.

I seem to be missing one swara count- the GG, MRS at the end played by violinist doesn't have a pause at first G unlike vocalist. I can't figure out where I missed.

The violinist touches higher octave R'- one can hear that distinctly at 2 points

This one was tough to crack.

At first it does have a feeling the reply is same just because we can recognize kAnada easily- we forget that the swaras could be different.

I hope I am right

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 10 Oct 2007, 12:06

Here is an online virtual keyboard with labels on the keys and multiple instruments: http://www.bgfl.org/bgfl/custom/resourc ... sic/piano/

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 10 Oct 2007, 21:33

My answer:

sample 10:

Response of violinist not the same. It is

Code: Select all

Violinist:  g m d n  s' s' n r' s' n r' s'  n p , g  g~ , m r s
Vocalist:   m d n s' n  p  m n  p  m p  g~  n p g ,  g~ , m r s

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 10 Oct 2007, 21:43

vk,

I am not sure, but for me, the combination of D2,N2 together with R1 gives cakravaham flavor.

I think initially for ragas we are not intimately familiar, we do try to map them to familiar ones. So MMG resemblance is there "but not quite". But after getting familiar maybe dont do it as such. Unless I look consciously and isolate portions, now when I listen I dont see such familiarities (except between very closely allied ragas).

Btw, did you realize that cakravAham differs from harikAmbhOji by only one swara - but it differs from MMG by 3 swaras? But did you see a greater resemblance to MMG than HK? My (wild) guess is thathe effect of R1 is that strong - perhaps. As soon as you hear R1, resemblance to HK vanishes. Also I think the effect of R1 lingers that after hearing that, even D2-N2 does not re-enforce similarity to HK that much.

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 10 Oct 2007, 21:46

BTW, the "n p , g g~ , m r s" could also be "n p , m g~ , m r s" (like in Vidya Raja's answer)

I did flip-flop between the m and g there before deciding on ga. The swara may have some inherent movement. Also I thought that maybe p to g to m r s is more kAnaDa compared to p to m to g and them m r s.

Arun

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 10 Oct 2007, 21:47

Arun,
You missed the "," after the first S'. I hear the pause in both the renditions.
Your representation is nice

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 10 Oct 2007, 22:25

You are right suji - I did miss that.

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 10 Oct 2007, 22:34

I tend to agree with vidya raja since my mind is programmed to hear
MG,MRS.
Again my ears are not too sensitive for the R' which I did confuse with S'.
arun
is NR'S' oK in Kanada?
The violinis simply fakes the beginning and end of the kalpana svara and does his own in between which is OK! But I have heard vocalists getting offended when the violinist shows too much of 'imagination'

Remember the joke when one famous ariste said (to the father) of one youngster who accompanied him in a concert:
avan pATTukku vASicchAn

vk

I get a mountain of a difference between chakravAham and MMG. I can't explain why! Perhaps it is the sancAram in the lower octaves!
We must listen to an RTP to get the essence!