The conscious and superconscious states in Carnatic Music

nadhasudha · Post by **nadhasudha** » 15 Aug 2007, 19:07

sureshvv wrote:nadhasudha... you need to expand your news sources... A "catastrophy" in the scale of 911 has been happening quite regularly every year for several decades in certain parts of the world...

My point in bringing 911 was only as an example. There probably is not much space in this forum to detail each and every catastrophic news event nor is it necessary. All I am trying to convey is that the mind of the listener needs to tuned in to receive the super conscious performance of the performer and there are times when this is not possible due to other factors

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 16 Aug 2007, 23:57

Here is a person who is enjoying eternal SP -

tyAgarAja kRti - â€˜nI dayacE rAmaâ€™ â€“ rAga yadukulakAmbhOji -

P nI dayacE rAma nityAnanduDaiti

A nAda brahmAnanda rasAkRti gala

C vara mRdu bhASha su-svara maya bhUSha
vara tyAgarAja vAg-cEl(A)vRta

Gist
O Lord SrI rAma - who has the form of the essence of Supreme bliss of nAda (OR bliss of nAda brahma)! O Lord who is fine soft spoken! O Lord whose adornment is of the nature of sweet (sapta) svara! O Lord who wears fine garment of words of this tyAgarAja!
By Your grace, I have become eternally blissful.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 17 Aug 2007, 08:06

Thank you, Govindan. A beautiful kriti in yadukula kambhOji which speaks of that blissful state of mind. How nice it would be if we hear both the song and the rAgam in a concert or two this season...

nyayam · Post by **nyayam** » 22 Aug 2007, 08:46

I think that the problem is not whether the artiste was in a conscious or superconscious state when offering the best music. The real issue could only be whether the artiste is keen on projecting himself or whether he wants intensely to project the music alone. If it is the latter, good music naturally follows. The ability of the artiste to transcend his Self and get merged in the music is the only thing that matters. Nothing else. The basic premise that the masters of yesteryears and today would have been in a superconscious state while pouring out great music is a doubtful premise. Intense sadhana sometimes opens out dazzling insights.

I would like to illustrate. That the music offered by Gayathri Venkataraghavan for Asthika Samajam. was rapturous is conceded , given her ability to integrate with the music. I had experienced it many a time in 2003 and 2004 when I had occasion to attend to many concerts of hers.

A few days back, I had occasion to listen to her at Krishna Gana Sabha. Her manner of singing, selection of songs etc only reminded one of a great musician of yesteryears. It was , no doubt, a successful concert but it had nothing much to distinguish it from that of any other competent artiste with an excellent voice.

No doubt she did not have the immense benefit of singing exclusively Shyama Sastri Kritis, her speciality, as at the Asthika Samajam through which she was probabaly able to achieve the submergence of the self into the music. That any artiste could achieve it , even once a way, is something remarkable.

The point that I would like to stress is that the issue is not singing at a conscious or superconscious level, but essentially one of submerging oneself into the music . Also that the inspired creations of the great Masters play a pivotal role.

sraja · Post by **sraja** » 22 Aug 2007, 09:31

I am sorry but I beg to differ completely from Nyayam. The KGS concert of Gayathri which I heard was in fact a splendid concert and one of her best in recent times. He Saroja dalanethri took you to the superconscious stage as did her pantuvarali.

ram · Post by **ram** » 22 Aug 2007, 10:25

I agree with sraja. Of course, everyone can have a different opinion about a concert. I felt Vid Gayathri's KGS concert was one of the best concerts I have heard in the recent times and I thoroughly enjoyed it. Every one of the items was rendered so well. I also loved the gaurimanOhari RTP she sang.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 22 Aug 2007, 11:03

Gowrimanohari RTP! Wow! I wonder why this raga keeps giving me the slip! Could someone provide details?

Sathej · Post by **Sathej** » 22 Aug 2007, 12:04

Super consciousness, if at all that is the right word to use, is a subjective topic and may differ form person to person. As Nyayam says, it is more important that the artiste does not project himself/herself as being able to present such music, but rather concentrate on the music.
Sathej

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 22 Aug 2007, 13:20

What Nyayam had for lunch or tiffin had probably the most to do with the difference in experience between the 2 concerts.

Karnaticfan · Post by **Karnaticfan** » 22 Aug 2007, 13:34

If an artist attains so called 'super (un) conscious' status in a concert, unmindful about audience/ambience, the dariwala (hall care taker) would say ' sir segram mudinga, naan veetukku pogaNum (pl finish earliest, I have to go home) !!!.

Knowing well that Amrutha varshaNi would bring down rains and if an artist does make an adamant attempt, the resul may be a different.

Just getting deep into the act gradually and expecting nothing would fetch greater results.

nyayam · Post by **nyayam** » 22 Aug 2007, 14:32

Sathej,
Thank u . U alone have understood what i intended to convey.

sureshvv,
If u had read carefully, u would have noticed that i had attended the SKGS concert Only. And i had gone by the remarks of Jagan re. Asthika Samajam concert, as i had not attended it. U could have saved your sarcasm or flippancy.

Ram, Sraja,
U are entitled to ur views. I to mine. But both of u seem to have missed the point i was trying to make Viz. that i did not feel she was singing at the level at which she was reported to have sung at Asthika Samajam. I presume that both of u had attended that concert as well.

g~yAnsekhar · Post by **g~yAnsekhar** » 22 Aug 2007, 14:50

KF Sir,

I agree with you. Concentrated efforts do yield gr8 results.

Y'day I visited kALi bAri at W.Mambalam and heard some rasikas speak about some artist who sang varALi there, last week, followed by Aazhi mazhai kannA. The rasikas happily recalled that after the concerts that night, the rains have started pouring continuously till yesterday, though with regular intervals and the climate is pleasant. They were not mentioning the artists' name. This may be a co-incidence but for good. oozhi mudalvanpOl meikaruthu...

This reminds me Kaanchi MahA PeriyavAL's description about the raag and aazhi mazhai kannA. Superb consciousness.

CM is gr8 on every count.

-sekhar-

ram · Post by **ram** » 22 Aug 2007, 15:34

nyayam,

I didn't attend the Asthika Samajam concert and so cannot compare the two. I was just responding to your statement "It was , no doubt, a successful concert but it had nothing much to distinguish it from that of any other competent artiste with an excellent voice"

Of course, everyone is entitled to his/her own views.

ram · Post by **ram** » 22 Aug 2007, 18:06

nyayam,

I certainly do agree with you and Sathej on good music following as a consequence of an artist trying to project his/her music rather than just projecting himself/herself as being capable of producing such music.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 23 Aug 2007, 00:19

nyayam...

You have cleared up the fact that you experienced the Asthika Samajam concert vicariously through Jagan's review.

My observation stands!

PS: Any sarcasm or flippancy intended to solely bring enlightenment to the discussion and not to personally offend anyone.

sraja · Post by **sraja** » 23 Aug 2007, 10:14

Nyayam,
Thanks for your post. Music is a very subjective issue and tastes will always differ. So there is no problem in you and me having differing views.However, I would like to take this opportunity to creating a chance for us to meet and have interesting discussions on music over a cup of coffee. Feel free to mail me and we can do so ad a mutually convenient time and venue. Looking forward to meeting you.
Cheers
Raja

jagan · Post by **jagan** » 26 Aug 2007, 22:53

Nyayam,

I am thankful that you have thought fit to go by my views on Gayathri Venkataraghavanâ€™s concert at Asthika Samajam, Tiruvanmiyur.

I ,however, feel that your meaningful contribution on the new dimensions to the topic of discussion viz. the role of the sahityas and the submergence of the self of the performer, has been obfuscated by your seemingly innocuous but inferentially derogatory observations on one of the performer participants.

It is not fair to compare the concert at Asthika Samajam with the one at SKGS for the simple reason that one cannot be expected to perform at such ecstatic levels in every concert. The musical ambience and other factors vary from concert to concert. You had also buttressed your point on the importance of Sahityas by stating that she did not have the benefit of singing exclusively the emotional kritis of Syama Sastri. In view of these, the observation that her performance at SKGS was just like one by any artiste with a good voice can, at best, be taken only a lefthanded gratuitous compliment . Not a fair comment.

Again it is not fair to conclude that the bhava aspect has come down from the levels of 2003,2004 after listening to just one or two concerts, 3 years later. Are you not inconsistent especially when you say that you agree with my views on the music at Asthika Samajam just a few days earlier.

It is not my case to defend the artiste ( I do not think she needs any), but only to make the point that our observations should not be only seemingly fair but actually so. And by singling out one of the contributant performers, attention is not diverted from the main topic of discussion

Sathej · Post by **Sathej** » 26 Aug 2007, 23:11

'only to make the point that our observations should not only be fair but also seen to be so' - I don't quite agree with that statement. It is enough if we are fair to our own conscience, we need not be 'seen' as being fair. That would infact destroy the purpose of being fair.
Sathej

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 26 Aug 2007, 23:22

To expect creative artistes to produce a masterpiece of their art or craft every single time they create is like expecting Da Vinci to paint a Mona Lisa every time. If you compare kAvEri (since we have a thread now on kritis which speak of kAvEri) to the creativity in a musician, the river in its course trickles at times, flows merrily at other times, gushes forth at yet another point. A vocalist has to be in good voice that day, rested enough the previous day, has to have a good audience and so on. Even the best of sportsmen cannot perform in top form every time they play the game.

Jagan, you are right. We are also flowing away from the topic of the thread...

jagan · Post by **jagan** » 26 Aug 2007, 23:22

Sathej,

Thanks. I have taken the point and edited my posting.

Sathej · Post by **Sathej** » 26 Aug 2007, 23:36

But, everybody makes only fair comments, I suppose. Fair to them. Again, fairness in such issues is highly subjective.
Sathej

jagan · Post by **jagan** » 30 Aug 2007, 17:06

Sathej,

Let me explain why i interceded on this subject.

I find that Nyayam had made only 4 postings and ALL of them relate to THIS ARTISTE ALONE. Except in one case, where he had requested upload of two kritis, the comments in all cases end with certain homilies or unflattering conclusions. Singling out ANY artiste for unfair or gratuitous comments cannot be considered either subjective or objective but only destructive.

Let us use this excellent forum for constructive comments and healthy discussion.

Sathej · Post by **Sathej** » 30 Aug 2007, 17:17

Hello Jagan,
True that 'singling out any artiste' is neither objective nor subjective. But, the 'fairness' is subjective. What one feels is unfair, the other may not. People write what they 'feel' is fair. Opinions vary.
Sathej

jagan · Post by **jagan** » 30 Aug 2007, 17:34

Sathej,
But does not singling out only one signify anything? Anyhow I have nothing more to say.

Sathej · Post by **Sathej** » 30 Aug 2007, 17:59

Hello Jagan,
In my opinion, singling out somebody, be it for praise or criticism does not mean much if it is 'fair'. But, whether it is fair or not matters. And as I said, that is highly debatable and people have different views. When it comes to terms like Bhavam and so on, one Rasika may say that one particular concert was so emotive, Bhava-filled and so on, while the other may entirely disagree. I feel that each is entitled to have his/her opinion on any issue.
Sathej

nyayam · Post by **nyayam** » 09 Sep 2007, 09:02

Jagan Sir,

I would only like to say that I have not singled out any artiste. There were only two performing artistes who had contributed to this issue. I have no opinion on the music of the one who originated the issue. I have heard him twice. As regards the other one , I have given credit where due. I have absolutely no intention of pulling down any artiste..

I find that you have a great appreciation for the music of such eminent vidwans like Tanjore Sankara Iyer, A. Sundaresan etc. Therefore, I thought that I should correct any wrong impression you may have.

kssuresh · Post by **kssuresh** » 09 Sep 2007, 12:04

nyayam wrote:There were only two performing artistes who had contributed to this issue.

I think, three. Suryaprakash also mentioned Sri Neyveli Santhanagopalan, who I think is "vidyaarti".

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 09 Sep 2007, 20:41

Suresh,
More than that, that AchAryA THINKS he is a 'vidyaarthi'! Such genuine humility...

srinivasasarma · Post by **srinivasasarma** » 14 Sep 2007, 12:13

now that you refer abt sri Neiveli Santhanagopalan, this morning, in Jaya TV, he was teaching
nAdasudArasa - andolika. superb. his students went up nicelyafter 'yoga tyaga' - i dont know
how to explain- tks for the drizling,i dint go out for walk. he also explained that this and sAramati
are called .... raga by thyagaraja ...
In my opinion, many upcoming artists, may not be able to get into SC level bec they have other issues
in their mind. But the elders can. I have heard that when shri Madurai Mani iyer sang at Kapali temple
many times, he and the rasikas were in SC mind most of the time. Rikshaw pullers willeven refuse
a 'savAri' waiting for his kAnakkan, vellaithAmarai, notes etc. and his free concerts were much much
better than his sabha .. concerts !Probably many of you hv not heard sOmu and MDR - me, many of us
in the past, have become so light after the concert and were flying to our homes back, trying to
memorise what how they were singing with tears !
Again some people could not love Somu or MDR- they had their own reasons.
SKR was one of my good friends and I attended many of his concerts. In one, he sang KAmbhOji
and I could see a difference. A little loud remark from me was "Is he not well today?" that too
to SKR's/my friend. But one commented from behind that this is the best kambhOji he had heard so far !
He looked at me as if ....
lvs/rgds

chalanata · Post by **chalanata** » 14 Sep 2007, 14:03

sarman,
is it not 'ragasudarasa'?

srinivasasarma · Post by **srinivasasarma** » 14 Sep 2007, 19:06

yes my dear, even now i am thinking abt that sangathi.

babaji · Post by **babaji** » 27 Sep 2007, 00:11

hello i am new to this community.

to start with suryaprakash sirs post.should one look at it with a self-realising spiritual vision or the spirituality of carnatic music(that is spirituality at every nuance).
beacuse the latter i could learn from my concerts because when i listened to myself sing i am able to find that it is unique and really spiritual as well.and the important thing is that i myself don't remeber how i got to sing that raaga like that.i concentrate yet i can't remember how i did it.maybe that is superconscious state.but with respect to spirituality.i have'nt realised anything with music....yet!