CM ADDICTION

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 21 Jul 2007, 05:51

'Addiction' is defined as:
a dependence on a substance, such as the drug heroin, or a type of behavior, such as gambling. The dependence is so strong that it may seem as if the person is unable to break away from the dependence.

Originally the term was used only in the context of 'substance abuse'. Now experts agree that people can become addicted to certain behaviors. Some individuals may develop a dependence on gambling, shopping, sexual activity, eating, or many other activities. Addictions of this kind are sometimes called "process addictions."

It would not come as a surprise if I refer to CM Addiction as a pathological process where an individual 'yearns' to listen to and talk about CM all the time in detriment to normal societal activities and obligations.

The onset may be gradual or sudden depending on Family, occupation and other societal circumstances. For example an overworked IT professional may start using CM for relieving stress and in due course get caught up resulting in 'CM Addiction'.

The effects on the Family (spouse/parents/children) are often devastating. During the initial phase there is lot of 'quarrels' due to conflict in the apportionment of the leisure time and in extreme cases it can result in total disruption resulting in a 'dysfunctional Family' whose consequences may be devastating.

As in the case of other addictions there will be a strong 'denial' on the part of the affected individual who may use ploys like 'occupational stress' or even 'bhakti' to justify his addiction.

Similarly there will be a strong 'withdrawal' syndrome if an attempt is made to restrict access to CM activities. There are also associated 'side effects' such as weight-gains due to inactivity and lack of exercise and even other substance addictions such as smoking/alcohol...., attention deficit, lack of libido and several subtle psycho-somatic problems.

I have seen several 'cases' and have found that 'males' are predominantly the victims though females are not immune.

In the interest of the public I am discussing this at this Forum just to alert those who may not be aware of it or who may be 'silent' victims.

Feel free to discuss your problems here and in case you need 'professional' help we can arrange to have it provided.

CM is great but let us use it in moderation as there are many case histories of Families disrupted and extreme cases of even suicides as an underlying cause of death.

knandago2001 · Post by **knandago2001** » 21 Jul 2007, 10:17

I'm curious if one can also identify cases of tolerance and dependence. "Musicolism" may not be restricted to CM alone:
www.harrogate.co.uk/harrogate-band/humour44.htm

Beats me though as to what would constitute a "case definition" and diagnostic classification.

ksrimech · Post by **ksrimech** » 21 Jul 2007, 10:24

I'm definitely afflicted by this.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 21 Jul 2007, 15:45

Unfortunately diagnostic standards have not been established. Learned members of this Forum can assist in constructing them as well as signs of early detection and 'treatment'. My recent ventures have shown that usually the spouses are the best source of identifying the condition. CM Addiction may be different from other musical addictions or those like sports (cricket etc.,) in view of the patina of 'bhakti' attached to it.

Feel free to express your views and experiences. Group discussions always help. If possible persuade your spouses/parents/kids/friends/ to participate in these discussions (of course anonymously). We moderators will ensure strict privacy for the views expressed. Also I request DRS/Chembai to relax the criterion of 'multiple ID' for the participants only in this thread so that concerned relatives can freely participate.

Let us ensure a healthy environment for the enjoyment and propagation of CM.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 21 Jul 2007, 16:06

Thanks knandago2001 for that reference. I wonder whether someone has constructed a testing scale (vaidated) based on those questions. It will be valuable to work on similar lines wrt CM Addiction. It is worth a nice thesis topic in one of our music departments!

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 21 Jul 2007, 16:07

Well I am also definitely addicted to cm. When cmlover came to india and when he was just staying near to me ,we had a long long chat . I am told by cmlover he felt not just with me but with quite a lot of them this addiction is there. Perhaps to draw a line between love and obsession in anything is and always very difficult for a personality like me(unfortunately no one is close enough to me in this forum to get that angle) .

===============================================================
CM obsession is more pronounced in me for the following reasons
===============================================================
1. I did have a lots and lots of friends , but after moving out of school and college the close friends mostly settled in the US .The only solace in madras is CM. Movies are generally lousy nowadays , not that I donot see any movies I see a lot with my wife but generally most of it is more to satisfy her than me .Getting very charged to see any movie is ruled out, unless it is exceptionally taken.

2. Staying at home is something I never like in general , that too watching tv never interests me at all simply because I cannot tolerate watching anything because of excessive adbreaks. My most passionate interest is in quiz , perhaps with siddhartha basu never appearing that is ruled out.

3. Cricket interested me much much more, but with the retirement of kapildev and srikkanth and the entry of mandira bedi as a commentator with all the popups ,I am fedup watching up cricket matches .

4. Hearing any cinema songs in tamil does not interest me nowadays simply I adore illayarAja,spb and jesudAs , with all of them not in the forefront today ,even that is ruled out.

5. Used to spend a lot of time with my family in beach and few temples , but with so much crowd and traffic snarl even that is not preferred by my family.

What could I do with the above constraints??All along , the truth is chennai does not offer anything better than CM ,that is a reality for me(rather unfortunate most of the majority dont feel so).

But all the above points does only explain why should there be love for cm and does not justify that why should one not have obsession? Why is the whole world going to buy harry potter at the stroke of 12 midnight standing in the queue? Ofcourse that is just once a year obsession? .

=====================================================================
Two interesting incidents that happened at my work and with my family.
=====================================================================
Well we all have to spend more time with work and home (spouse).There are two funny incidents:

1.Sometime before my company conducted a training program titled "Stress free managers". I know for sure that in my office only I am listening to CM , at the 2nd day of the program , the instructor who actually did not give much inputs asked at the end all of us to listen to Carnatic Music ,he played two samples one instrumental and the other vocal and asked all of us to listen more and more to CM to relieve stress.Most of the remaining managers felt great ,I just had to laugh inside.

2. Another interesting incident.My wife,mom,in-laws and I went all the way to rAja Annnamalai mandram in parrys (sure 10 + kms from my home)to listen to one hindi concert titled gAthe rahe mera dhil ,where songs of md rafi ,kishore and others were sung . I went on a saturday night with my family and honestly I was enjoying the hindi music . There is one great singer by name "Anil BajpAi" from bombay who sings just like md rafi who made me forget cm totally. Incidentally at half time the guest of honour who was invited in the stage was the cricketer S.VenkatarAghavan who spoke quite well , but in the speech he made a statement saying that "I like to hear old hindi songs ,but my passion is mostly to hear Carnatic music". My wife who was so happy that day as I took her but she looked at me with a half happy face,when that cricketer was making that statement , my mother whispering "pOchudapA (O gOsh not again)".

Bottomline ,my obsession in cm was brought back even when I did not want it?.

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There is just one solution that may mitigate
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Having irritated possibly most of you in being autobiographical,One way to get out of obsession is perhaps to view this forum little less , perhaps to me the forum is making me more obsessive than the live cm action. May be I have to cut the forum first. Certainly one big source of ADDICTION is the forum.

cmlover ,
Are we are sitting in the problem statement (forum), possibly we may never get a solution for cm addiction .

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 21 Jul 2007, 17:30

Very Good Rajesh!
That is a forthright honest confession.
The first stage in addiction treatment is AWARENESS which is what we are aiming at currently.
The next stage is ACCEPTANCE
Final solution has to be tailor made and will depend on the Family and individual circumstances. The role of the Family/Friends cannot be taken too lightly in handling the problem. For example there are cases where one may seek vicarious pleasure listening to CM when there is 'rejection' from an unsympathetic spouse. Such cases have to be handled delicately with lot of counselling in the family milieu.

Let us first establiish that the problem (CM Addiction) exists. We do not even know its magnitude (prevalence and incidence) in our community. My favourite term here is 'epidemiology of CM Addiction'. The epidemiology will address distribution by age/sex/ethnic characteristics. Let us first break the myth that the addiction belongs to sexagenarians!

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 21 Jul 2007, 18:43

Interesting discussion - beginning to sound like an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting. Rasikas Anonymous perhaps?

Smokers sometimes use a nicotine patch to ween off the tobacco. Maybe the CM addicts can listen to some raga-based light music to help them ween.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 22 Jul 2007, 02:59

Yet another is 'saturation'.
Listen to CM at least 16 hrs a day continuously for a week.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 22 Jul 2007, 09:37

Sloka No.2. (Ref. nAryaNIyaM: 92 â€“ 9)

gangA gItA ca gAyatry-api ca tulasikA gopikA-candanaM tat
sAlagrAmAbhi-pUjA para-puruSha tathaikAdashI-nAma-varNAH /
etAny-aShTApy-ayatnAny-ayi kali-samaye tvat-prasAda-prasiddhyA
kShipram-mukti-pradAnIty-abhidadhur-R^iShayas-teShu
mAM sajjayethAH //

Tr.: Oh Supreme Lord! there are just eight items, namely, Ganga, Gita, Gayatri, Tulasi leaves, sandal paste, the worship of sAlagrAmaM, (the fast on the day of) Ekadasi, and Divine names. These eight, declare the sages, are the easy and quick
means of salvation, in this age of kali-yuga, as they secure Thy abounding grace. May I be intensely devoted to them all!

Comment: This asks for karma-yoga with the stamp of bhakti. There is a folk-lore sloka which says:

gangA gItA ca gAyatrI govindeti catuShTayaM /
catur-gakAra-samyukte punar-janma na vidyate //

Meaning, â€˜when the four that begin with the consonant â€˜gaâ€™ are integrally present, the four being gangA (the river Ganges), gItA, gAyatrI and govinda (standing for Godâ€™s name) â€“ then there is no rebirthâ€™. Bhattatiri adds to these four, another four. In the orthodox traditions initiated by Adi Sankara, five main divinities are worshipped through a sophisticated ritual called pancAyatana-pUjA, meaning, worship at five altars. Here the divinities are worshipped not in their human-like forms but in certain symbols in the form of stones, which are nothing but certain rock formations available in specified locations in India. The Sun-God, sUrya, is taken as inherent in certain crystals normally found in Vallam in Tamilnadu. The Mother Goddess, shakti, is represented by the svarNamukhi stone found in the bed of the river of that name in the Andhra region of South India. VishNu is worshipped in the sAlagrAma (mentioned in Bhattatiriâ€™s verse) stone that can be had in plenty on the bed of the river Ghantaki in the Himalayas. Ganesa is the red shonabhadra stone found on the bed of the river Sone flowing into the Ganges. Finally shiva is the bANa-linga found in the Omkarakunda of the river Narmada, near the island of Mandhata. The pancAyatana pUja tradition may be taken as an intermediate stage between the worship of Godhead with form and the worship of the formless, because the symbols of worship as rock formations have certainly a form but they are also formless in that they have no parts like face, eyes, body, hands and feet. It is as though the devotee trains himself to take the mind from the formful to the formless while at the same time allowing full scope for oneâ€™s devotional feelings. Also note that in the Vaishnava tradition, the emphasis is on the sAlagrAma to such an extent that the other four of the pancAyatana tradition are mostly omitted.

Source - Translation and Commentary of Selected verses of Narayaneeyam by Prof VK (reference posted in the thread Narayaneeyam)

I would add 'sangItam' to the list of Bhattatiri; 'gAnam' to the four-some of the folklore; the Tirunelveli sapta-svara pillars to the rocks.

vidyaarthi · Post by **vidyaarthi** » 22 Jul 2007, 09:56

What Paramacharya of Kanchi has said is ' If you go on listening to or singing CM,you will reach that stage where the Moksha state is realised.He says,quoting Sage Yagna valkya ,that involving oneself in CM knowing its emergence from Veda and Veena can easily fetch one the state of Nirvana without the help of those strenous routines of Pooja,Yoga,Thapas and other rituals.'

If CM addiction is an unwanted condition of mind,what do we have to say about the great composers who always lived with music?

Integrating our lives,profession and music applying moderation may help one avoid getting into the trap of "addiction"

I think the secret lies in using the path of music for realising higher goals in life instead of considering it as an one more "pleasure gratifying tool" for our senses.

It is worth contemplating the meaning of the krithi "Eduku Peddala" by Tyagaraja wherein he aspires for attaining the noble mind of the great people which may be difficult for even those who have attained mastery in Vedas,Upanishads and music(he says the secret of Nada vidya).

"Shanthamu leka sowkyamu ledu".

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 22 Jul 2007, 10:37

svara rAga laya sudhA rasamandu
vara rAma nAmamanE kaNDa
cakkera miSamu jEsi bhujincE
Sankaruniki telusunu tyAgarAja vinuta (inta saukhyamani)

The exultation is known to Lord Sankara who relishes by mixing the refined sugar called the blessed name of SrI rAma, in the nectarine juice of music - svara â€“ rAga â€“ laya.

Those who advocate that bhakti should be kept out of CM (enjoyment), may kindly pardon me.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 22 Jul 2007, 22:39

Interesting information Govindan, for someone who sees Divinity in Nature and music...

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 22 Jul 2007, 23:00

vidyaarthi,
Your thoughtful post has two points which stand out.

Integrating our lives, profession and music, helps us avoid getting into the trap of addiction.

You emphasize the role of music in helping us attain higher goals, as opposed to music playing a mere pleasure-gratifying role, aesthetic appreciation alone being its value.

Your experience speaks...

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 23 Jul 2007, 03:47

Thanks for the discussion. But I am on a different frequency. I am not denying the 'bhakti' aspect of CM nor its efficacy in leading to Liberation. But today all folks are not attracted to CM with those high ideals or aspirations. Again there is a time and stage in life (Ashrama) when that aspect should be pursued. A grahasta has his obligations and duties which ought to be fulfilled before seeking Liberation. In practical terms 'conventional' Family structures are getting unstable in the West and the effects are being felt in India too! The days of requiring or expecting 'our' women to silently brook 'woes' are over. VaLLuvar's definition of 'pin thoo^ngi mun ezhumbum pEthai' does not apply any more.

In spite of modern advances a 'day' still has only 24 hrs. In my younger days those 24 hrs were more than adequate to carry on with regular lives with CM slotted in. In fact even offices used be closed for New moon days and special ceremonial days to facilitate observances. Today with both spoouses almost working overtime there is precious little time left for them to share together and in the company of kids/parents too if any. Thanks to internet we have ten lifetimes of CM concerts available online and if one lives in Chennai he would have access to atleast three live concerts a day. A concert means three hours (excluding the pre-concert fantasies plus post concert relaxations). The day is gone!

Our dashavidha poruttham for marriage does not include a taste for CM unfortunately. I am aware of cases where boy/girl wanted to marry only those who have a taste for CM. Many remained bachelors/spinsters and I have heard the 'curses' from their parents for fostering interest in CM among them in the first place! In passing I should mention that the 'family life' of our famous vaggeyakara as far as we know was never 'palatable'. Even the 'famous' performers in the last century have confessed to a 'rotten family life' and some of them positively discouraged their offsprings from adopting a CM career.

I am not stating these issues to provoke a controversy. We all need a balanced family life and all should lead a 'full' satisfied life and in due course attain salvation preferably ascending the sOpAna of CM given to us by our elders. In that context I am glad Rajesh has drawn attention to the fact:
Certainly one big source of ADDICTION is the forum.
I have earlier admonished my own colleagues about the addictive nature of this Forum and fortunately I know that there is none at present in that category. I am not ashamed to confess that I myself belonged to that category in the beginning though I could afford to carry on with it at the stage of life I am in!

In summmary I have written this to generate AWARENESS since I know very well of the EXISTENCE of the problem and it is easy to avoid falling into the trap if diagnosed early and with support from our Rasika community. Let us follow the sterling advice of NSG:
Integrating our lives,profession and music applying moderation may help one avoid getting into the trap of "addiction"

g^rihasthA samastA sukhinO bhavantu |

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 23 Jul 2007, 07:48

CMLover,

Well said, and glad to see you back after what I hope was a very pleasant trip to Bharat.

Indeed it is very possible for a musically inclined person to get addicted to classical music. A balanced approach to life is required. After coming across this fine forum last year, I found it hard to resist posting all my compositions back-to-back (you may recall that period of activity). I decided to slow down subsequently and post at a more sedate pace.

Illustratively, the mighty composer Muthuswami Dikshitar has about 500 compositions to his name. Assuming a composing career of about 40 years, this would be equivalent to about 12 compositions a year, or about 1 every month. Such activity seems quite reasonable in intensity, and I suppose it left him ample time for other pursuits (e.g. traveling). I might point to him as fine example of a balanced guy in all respects. This is reflected in his compositions which invariably show a sense of self-collection and dignity, in contrast to some other composers who often sound desperate (i.e. "O Lord, please save me, I am a worthless chap without you").

Another great composer, Swati Tirunal, also has about 500 compositions to his name but a composing career of only 15 years or so. This would translate to about 2-3 per month. I wonder if that is too profilic an output. One has to wonder if he composed in his spare time or whether he administered the state in his spare time !Similarly, one has to wonder if the lives of some European composers such as Mozart and Bach suffered in part due to their prolific output.

In a composition that I posted previously, I referred to Swami Chinmayananda as "kAmArthasarvatyakta". However, this applies only to sanyasis who have attained enlightenment. I join you in urging the rasiks worldwide not to neglect "kAma" and "artha" while being devoted to CM (and bhartiya shastriya sangeet in general) !

Best Wishes,
Sangeet Rasik

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 23 Jul 2007, 07:56

cmlover. Great thread! While a part of me is humoured, a part of me does realize the underlying issue.

IMO, you are very correct in that for most of the fanbase, enjoyment mainly for the musical value most of the time (i.e. as opposed to spiritual), and it is indeed an addictive hobby. This is very different from pop/rock/popular music probably because the analytical elements are rarely explored by most of the fan base. In CM, more people get serious about knowing what makes CM click and the subject is voluminous.

PS: I do suffer from it - although it perhaps has a chance to affect my work more than life at home. (I guess thankfully) At home, other things happening regularly keep me away from CM. But there are times where it does seem all consuming. Note for me that when it strikes it can either or both of the following: (i) hearing/talking/reading about music (ii) the musical programming.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 23 Jul 2007, 08:07

Thanks Arun for a frank,objective, realistic and fair assessment that is characteristic of you!
I had focussed on the domestic environment; it is equally true that it can affect the work environment too or even career/business which require undiverted attention. Just like you I too got sucked in by the 'technical/scientific' aspects of CM more than by bhakti or aesthetics!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 23 Jul 2007, 08:17

Dear SR
nice to see your comments. I primarily focussed on the social life of CM Rasikas. Being a composer or a performer is an entirely different ball game. In CM as well as WM most of their domestic lives are painted as a disaster. For that matter the domestic lives of most artistes/great scientists were all disasters. Since we are all Rasikas primarily I just wanted to sound a note of warning to folks so that they do not go overboard even wrt participating at this Forum.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 23 Jul 2007, 09:24

CML,
I read your post on Addiction to CM as a topic which you ( as a professional) were concerned about and were willing to counsel those who needed help. CM (or any other form of entertainment or sport) CAN be detrimental to our existence if we are not willing to devote time to other vital aspects of our lives. As I expected him to, open minded as he is, Rajesh was the first one to admit to it. And as I also expected, you assured him that 'awareness' itself was the right thing to have--the first step towards recovery. Given Rajesh's openness and your wisdom, I guessed as much (an unprofessional guess, of course).

I also agree that sexagenarians (retirees) can afford to indulge in CM without other priorities in their lives (like family) suffering. The seniors can thrive on it, keeping their minds and souls well nourished.
I was wondering how different folks on the forum would view it when you spotlighted the topic (though you had spelt it out that you were speaking professionally).
Yes, most of the young professionals are under a lot of stress at work. They do need diversions to ease the tension and deadlines which a generous pay check brings with it. Some smoke, drink, get depressed, take it out on their families (while depriving them of the love and attention they look for). Yes, anything which causes an imbalance in a man's (woman's) life is not healthy. As you say, twenty four hours are simply not adequate for them (why, even for us!).
So, of all kinds of diversions that are offered to them, the healthiest seems to be CM! With some professional help, they could learn to balance their love for music with the other precious aspects of their lives.

Mohan,
In a way, CM addiction seems simpler when it comes to weaning oneself away. I don't think you meant it seriously, but I don't think it would help a CM addict to listen to lighter kind of music exclusively. Might even frustrate him further.

Sangeet Rasik,
I do not know what to say about your limiting the number of your compositions. Posting them in succession? I may agree with you on that. I don't think MD and others limited their creative output by saying, 'too many compositions for a week', and put a halt to their devotion to God and creativity. Had they done that, their compositions would not be as great as we make them out to be.
Youngsters or old timers, the stricture of time is very much upon us in today's world. While our generation had the luxury of time to savor things in our youth, the young cannot afford that in their hectic professional lives today. With that awareness, and with some valuable professional help, they can make the best out of their lives!
While modern medicine is looking for alternate cures (ayurvedA among others), the very involvement in CM--with effectivetime management, can be a cure in modern times...

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 23 Jul 2007, 09:30

CML,
Our posts crossed! You are already at work, and you don't need non-professionals like me hanging around

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 23 Jul 2007, 09:57

Dear Arasi
Good counsel coming from older folks to the younger generations is always welcome. We have trodden the path which they have yet to reach. Personal case history/solutions, objective narration of experiences and even realistic anecdotes are more valuable than simple professional advice. There is no simple pill-popping medical solution in this case!

bhaktha · Post by **bhaktha** » 23 Jul 2007, 10:07

Sangeet Rasik wrote:CMLover,

Illustratively, the mighty composer Muthuswami Dikshitar has about 500 compositions to his name. Assuming a composing career of about 40 years, this would be equivalent to about 12 compositions a year, or about 1 every month. Such activity seems quite reasonable in intensity, and I suppose it left him ample time for other pursuits (e.g. traveling). I might point to him as fine example of a balanced guy in all respects. This is reflected in his compositions which invariably show a sense of self-collection and dignity, in contrast to some other composers who often sound desperate (i.e. "O Lord, please save me, I am a worthless chap without you").

@ Sangeet rasik
A few observations:
1.From what i have read, Shri Dikshitar used to go on pilgrimages and used to burst into kritis in the presence of the Lord (read sannadhi). Thus, visiting temples and chanting the Lord's name were his primary goals (probably for self-realisation) and compositions were incidental...gems that the Lord probably wanted us to know through a mahaan like Dikshitar.
2. >>"balanced guy"...Dikshitar is no modern day celebrity to be addressed thus. I am sure u meant no offence but it has a different effect when one reads it.

3. From your last sentence, I can only guess its a dig at Thyagabrahmam. Karma yogam, bhakthi yogam and jyana yogam are three paths that one can undertake to attain salvation. Shri Syama Sastry (a gurukkal whose niya karma was temple work), Thyagabrahmam (a bhaktha in the best sense of the term) and Shri DIkshitar (a jyani in the best sense of the term) were shining examples of the three yogas repectively. That is probably one reason why we refer to them as the trinity and revere them with the same respect.
The above are just some of my observations and I mean to start no fight nor digress from the topic.
@arasiji and cmlover,
your posts made excellent reading.
-bhaktha

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 23 Jul 2007, 13:00

On a general note, dependence (addiction) can be physical and/or psychological. Some are more socially acceptable (like alcohol, at least in the West). Dependence becomes a problem only when it starts affecting the health and well-being of a person and his life- this includes various spheres such as physical health, mental health, family life, friendships, social interactions, occupation, spirituality etc. So for instance, for someone who is living alone, or has a lot of free time, or where everyone in the family/close circle is into it, CM dependence is not an issue; neither does it need be treated.

karNATaka sangIta falls in the category of psychological dependence plus the (dis)advantage that it is not only socially acceptable but also commendable in that it upoholds devotion and spirituality. In many ways, psychological dependence is harder to treat than physical dependence.

Dependence has precipitating and perpetuating/maintaining factors. Often they end up getting caught in a vicious circle where one feeds the other and become self-maintaining. It is often a reflection of a deeper maladjustment/conflict. Dependence ismostly a maladaptive coping mechanism. Its origins may be innocuous and be in simple pleasure-seeking or self-elevating.

Broadly, criteria for various kinds of dependence will be the same although there will be individual variations that can be very important in understanding/treating. And most importantly, the wish/request for treatment must come from the individual affected, whatever may be the driving forces behind help-seeking. Without awareness/motivation, effective therapy is impossible.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 23 Jul 2007, 13:08

Let me post the criteria for Alcohol dependence (Edward & Gross) so you can draw parallels in CM

# Narrowing of drinking repertoire
# Salience of drink-seeking behaviour
# Increased tolerance to alcohol
# Repeated withdrawal symptoms
# Relief or avoidance of withdrawal symptoms by further drinking
# Subjective awareness of compulsion
# Reinstatement after abstinence

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 23 Jul 2007, 13:16

A note of caution
Are we looking at 2 different kinds of dependence here?- music and the Internet? It is important to recognise this as that is crucial and can make a difference between effective and failed therapy. It is just like failing to recognise co-morbid alcohol problem in someone who is depressed and just treat him with an antidepressant. The treatment will fail for sure.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 23 Jul 2007, 18:37

point noted.
I once wrote an interesting paper on 'competing risks' wherein the slack of eliminating a particular risk is taken over by a related risk and the effects of the anticipated treatment are nullified.
One does need a wholistic approach to the problem!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 23 Jul 2007, 20:23

drshrikaanth wrote:karNATaka sangIta falls in the category of psychological dependence plus the (dis)advantage that it is not only socially acceptable but also commendable in that it upoholds devotion and spirituality. In many ways, psychological dependence is harder to treat than physical dependence.

Just these two sentences offer lot of insights!

shripathi_g · Post by **shripathi_g** » 23 Jul 2007, 21:21

I'm getting addicted to this thread.

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 23 Jul 2007, 22:38

Bhaktha,

Though this is somwhat a digression from the thread as you point out, some comments in reply since some of this may be relevant to understanding the psychology of "dependence" and "addiction". Specifically, I think it would be helpful in the "diagnosis" stage to not consider CM as an instrument of divine power that incidentally leads to music and religious devotion (not only in the composers but also in the rasik), but more as a "living-breathing" art form created and practised by mortals of a high stature, but nevertheless mortals.

We can discuss more in a different thread if you like, or the moderators suggest a better thread...

bhaktha wrote:1.From what i have read, Shri Dikshitar used to go on pilgrimages and used to burst into kritis in the presence of the Lord (read sannadhi).

As I mentioned in a previous discussion last year, that is a very nice way to idealize the past masters and secure their place in CM history by creating "lore" (similar to puranas) surrounding them. Nothing wrong with it. But every krti of Dikshitar is painstakingly crafted to achieve excellence in composition. Inventing a krti like "akshayalingavibho" on the spot is frankly next to impossible. At the most, he may have sung a very basic/extempore version of the composition that we now have.

Even the "lore" surrounding extempore compositions of the greatest Sanskrit poets like Kalidasa, seems confined to relatively trivial poems invented to entertain the king during impromptu 'contests'. Now Dikshitar was by no means the greatest Sanskrit poet of all time, but in my opinion certainly the greatest vaggeyakara (i.e. one who combined complex forms of music and language to create fine new art).

Thus, visiting temples and chanting the Lord's name were his primary goals (probably for self-realisation) and compositions were incidental...gems that the Lord probably wanted us to know through a mahaan like Dikshitar.

I must disagree with this and tell a little anecdote. My late maternal grandfather, although a very cultured, religious, and philanthropic gentleman (or "guy" !;)), had for some reason a strong distaste for classical music. His chief complaint was: "If their main purpose is to say 'padmanabha pahi' or 'mamava sada janani' why make a big fuss about it with complicated sangatis, kritis, talas, ragas etc ? Just say it or sing a few simple lines and be done !"

Although spirituality and religion played a large part in the lives of past composers, they did not have to pick a highly stylized and complex art form like karnatak music to express their religious/spiritual devotion, if that was all there was. They were composers and creators of art music first and foremost in their daily lives. In particular, the carefully constructed compositions of Dikshitar can hardly be described as "incidental". In addition, he imbibed many of the 'foreign' influences that he was exposed to, for example north indian music which is deliberately incorporated in his work. Similarly, he adapted the marching tunes of the military garrison stationed close by his place into his "nottuvadyam" compositions. What I am saying here is really that the focus on CM and its composers as being agents of religious devotion and the resulting art form being "incidental", while OK, is not all there is (nor should be if the art form is to survive and expand in an increasingly "unreligious" future).

2. >>"balanced guy"...Dikshitar is no modern day celebrity to be addressed thus. I am sure u meant no offence but it has a different effect when one reads it.

No offense meant at all, just my five-year-old stature in CM showing itself !

3. From your last sentence, I can only guess its a dig at Thyagabrahmam. Karma yogam, bhakthi yogam and jyana yogam are three paths that one can undertake to attain salvation. Shri Syama Sastry (a gurukkal whose niya karma was temple work), Thyagabrahmam (a bhaktha in the best sense of the term) and Shri DIkshitar (a jyani in the best sense of the term) were shining examples of the three yogas repectively. That is probably one reason why we refer to them as the trinity and revere them with the same respect.

There was no dig at anyone, just a statement regarding the presentation of their compositions. Again, I think the philosophy of the Bhagavadgita is a great rationalization of behavior after the fact. Your statement actually brings out another point from a discussion last year. If one wants to split into 3 different types of yoga, then it is my opinion that Dikshitar comes out as the shining example of all three yogas. For example, I could regard someone that travels the length and breadth of the country to visit all sorts of different temples, and composes detail-packed compositions on all the major deities of the Hindu pantheon, as a great bhakta sans compare. Similarly, others have categorized the "Trinity" into representatives of advaita (Dikshitar), vishishtadvaita (Shastri) and dvaita (Tyagaraja). Sankaracharya was no less a "bhakta" than Ramanuja and Madhva, yet his "jnanayoga" and "karmayoga" trumped everyone else.

I don't mean this post to be a "X composer is better than Y" comparison. Mainly, I think (as alluded to by arunk, drshrikaanth, and CMLover) that a lot of different facets (many of them very 'human", not "divine") must be considered for a healthy perspective on this great art form.

Best Wishes,
Sangeet Rasik

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 24 Jul 2007, 00:57

Nice to read all the views on CM addiction.

As for me â€“the very first stroke on my violin when I sit to practice is mistaken for a signal call. â€œIs dinner ready ?- I almost invariable hear. There goes my practice sessionâ€¦â€¦

Though in my heart CM has taken a deeper sense of pleasure over the last year I put everything else before that. I couldnâ€™t be otherwise happy playing this beautiful art. That way I do get the appreciation from other members of the family.
A year ago I limited my self a little when I was asked why I likeâ€

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 24 Jul 2007, 02:40

Sangeet Rasik,
As neatly and logically you pack your arguments and add your first hand knowledge (of your own process of composing), I am afraid I cannot go along with all of them. I strongly believe that spirituality and creativity have a lot in common. One doesn't have to unduly worry about their association. They sometimes become one--and at THAT moment, a song is born. Why is it that we marvel at a particular kriti of MD or tyagaraja? I am talking about you, me and that man in the temple, that woman at home. Our first response is that of recognition of our own feelings (of divinity or faith or creativity and music appreciation) so well expressed by them. We all feel it, in our own contexts. If one happens to be one of those 'mortals of high stature' as you put it (smacks of elitism to me, sorry), one would, I suppose apply one's erudition in music, languages and so on to further understand or interpret them--sometimes, even kill it by over anaylzing it.
Not all devotional music is 'composed' (or pours out of) a scholar alone! There are and were many men and women who were not scholars but good composers.To me, a devotional composition is a spontaneous response to Divinity in that particular moment when the composer is drawn into spirituality. MD and other composers might have edited their kritis later with a better word or a musical phrase. I don't deny that.
Just as personalities differ, their 'products' differ too. Keats and Milton were poets. How different their products! Mozart and Bach, tyAgarAja and MD, bhArathi and his contemporaries...
I come back to my belief that creativity, even when it doesn't have to do with Divinity, is an amazing occurence. Even a child can be heard exclaiming. 'Look at what I have painted' or look at my poem'! That moment, however grand or insignificant it is to the rest of the world nevertheless is one's own moment of epiphany. As I said, composers come in many varieties, each one colored by his or her own personality, background and experience. It is true of artistes too. Some may even obliterate that moment by zeroing in on the grammar of construction alone. All the same, that special moment belongs to us all whether we recognize it or not....

vaggeyakara, I wish you would say something on this too. I am not schooled in music or in languages. Yet, my heritage, and my appreciation of music and the written word inspires me to create. Songs are one of the modes of my expression.

SR,
You were a child when you heard your grandfather's statement. I have a feeling that he was not as serious as your mind (that of an impressionable child) understood it to be. Then again, I may be wrong...

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 24 Jul 2007, 02:55

arasi wrote:Sangeet Rasik,
I do not know what to say about your limiting the number of your compositions. Posting them in succession? I may agree with you on that. I don't think MD and others limited their creative output by saying, 'too many compositions for a week', and put a halt to their devotion to God and creativity. Had they done that, their compositions would not be as great as we make them out to be.

Arasi,

No, there is a misunderstanding. I didn't mean that any composer should be a "bean-counter". I was using statistical averages on existing composers to see what their typical level of activity might have been. It is well accepted that statistics on past events provides useful information, but of course should not be interpreted in ways that cannot be supported.

We do not know, for example, whether MD composed one piece at a time, or whether he had several in progress simultaneously, or whether he "cranked out" several pieces quickly in a "basic" form and then spent time polishing them. All that the "1 a month" statistic tells us is that he was most likely occupied in other substantial pursuits and was not narrowly focused on "cranking out" as many excellent compositions as possible. More thoughts on the inspiration and creativity aspects in a separate post.

SR

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 24 Jul 2007, 03:37

arasi wrote:I strongly believe that spirituality and creativity have a lot in common. One doesn't have to unduly worry about their association. They sometimes become one--and at THAT moment, a song is born. Why is it that we marvel at a particular kriti of MD or tyagaraja? I am talking about you, me and that man in the temple, that woman at home. Our first response is that of recognition of our own feelings (of divinity or faith or creativity and music appreciation) so well expressed by them.

I don't deny this at all. At the root of all true creativity is something that is essentially unexplainable and is spontaneous. Many refer to this unknown force as the "Divine". I call this "Brahman". Others may call it the "Lord". There is no "formula" to follow that can result in creativity.

However, I think we must also remember the words of Edison: "Genius is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration". Many can have good ideas inspired by that Unknown Force, but after that initial spark it is all definitely in the realm of human endeavor, whether science or art - relentless practice/hard work, inquiry, knowledge accumulation, experimentation, fine-tuning.... A song may be born in a divine moment, but to bring it to the level of a fine krti requires very human effort as you may well know in the process of composing your fine pieces. The physicist Feynman said that his best insights were, at their core, "intuitive" - he couldn't explain how he arrived at them. But after that, it took him years to express that "intuition" in mathematical and physical language that was useful and appreciated by others. In some cases he invented the necessary mathematical tools himself. His Nobel prize was as much (or perhaps more) awarded for that expression in a useful form as it was for the idea itself.

Returning to CM, I personally do not feel the same when listening to MD krti as a Tyagaraja krti. The latter's compositions are dominated by effusive bhakti - you immediately get the feeling that this was a man delirious in his idealization of Rama. Not so with MD - one has to "look inside" more carefully to discover the seamless combination of aesthetics, philosophy, mythology, "occult" practices, and religious devotion. That seamless combination did not come spontaneously - it was carefully cultivated and is indeed the signature of his compositions. I am sure both MD and T had equally good inspirations - but they used it in different ways with different effects. Indeed the compositions of these two composers have been compared to the enjoyment of a grape (which is immediate) and of a coconut (which requires more effort from the rasik).

You were a child when you heard your grandfather's statement. I have a feeling that he was not as serious as your mind (that of an impressionable child) understood it to be. Then again, I may be wrong...

I was about 22 when I last heard this. I believe he was quite serious, as he never came with us to any kacheris and listened to any CM except to be polite. On the other hand he was very religious, indeed was instrumental in reviving two of our family temples in Kerala.

SR

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 24 Jul 2007, 05:49

I find the statemnent ( nobody in particular, made it here - but we hear it all the time) that all Tyagaraja's kritis were an outpour of devotion a bit difficult to digest. I agree that he was a great devotee of Rama. But he was equally, if not a greater, devoted to sangIta.

It is very hard to imagine he did not plan anything with all the variety of (new) rAgas he has employed. Sure, some divyanAma kRiti may be extempore, but singing a kriti in a new rAga such as vAgadhIshwari the day before he passes away, to follow it with a kriti in another new rAga (manOhari) the day of his samAdhi - I call it well planned, and with a definite musical purpose.

-Ramakriya

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 24 Jul 2007, 05:49

BTW, did I post it in the wrong thread ;?

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 24 Jul 2007, 06:58

I don't think so, Ramakriya, though there is another thread on tyagaraja active at the moment.
I have a question for you since you are an expert in this area. How would you describe Purandara Dasa's compositions in relation to what we are trying to understand here?

Again, with tyAgarAjA, when he composed a kriti in a new rAgA, he didn't have to go through the process of getting familiar with it at THAT particular moment! He could have been singing without words (part of his years of nAdOpAsanA). The rAgA and song didn't have to come to him anew at that very moment.By the way, it was a life long process. There were no deadlines and quotas in his bhakthi (as in the case of some who are rigid in their religious practices--reciting, reading, circumambulating the sannidhi so many times each day, and that suffices for them).

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 24 Jul 2007, 07:34

Sangeet Rasik,
Sorry that I wondered if you were a child when you heard your grandfather say those words. I have to assume that either he does not relish CM (many don't, for their own reasons and that's fine. My family likes to read mystery novels and I don't).
Yes, once again, I agree and disagree with you. It is the 'approach' that we differ in, I think. Both Science and the arts thrive on ideas. Agreed. They don't yield themselves to comparison because they are different things altogether. I have seen Feynman (on TV) getting carried away with his enthusiasm as I sometimes do. It is amazing the way he forgets himself and becomes one with his creativity--bhakti of the highest order with his subject matter--like tyAgarAjA. But it is like comparing apples and oranges--comparing them.

Let me try to understand it. TyAgarAjA composed--not deliberately at any time, in my view--because he was well versed in music, had immense bhakti (a great incentive) and he loved singing as part of his prayers to rAmA. It definitely was not like presenting a thesis to rAmA (all the perspiration and angst besides inspiration). His state of being would not have let him think of his creating music and songs as drudgery, sweating or struggling. It would have been joyous for him--even when he complained and pleaded with Him, I feel it would have been an agreeable thing to him because he was conversing with his soulmate and mentor and his very reason for existence on earth. He got solace in that, not stress.
Having said that, I can agree with you on having to struggle with the songs, now that I am sorting out and organizing them! I was happy singing them out all these years and now, what you say is true. Ah, the 21st century!
Yes, there is a lot of structure in music too, as in science--the science of rAgAs and tALAs and the rest. Then again, taking a predominantly scientific stance does not appeal to me. If it is so with me, how about the Trinity? Surely, they were the very embodiments of abandon...

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 24 Jul 2007, 08:01

It is time to do some objective analysis and establish standards. Here is a test for CM Addiction
http://www.mediafire.com/?bbrfdjmdlli
Please download the same and report your scores in the suggested format. We need al least 20 responses to have a reasonably valid standard to be established. Please cooperate taking some time. I request Sangit Rasik to do some advanced statistical tests on the reported scores after they are all compiled.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 24 Jul 2007, 08:26

MB50(20)

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 24 Jul 2007, 08:39

arasi wrote:Let me try to understand it. TyAgarAjA composed (not deliberately, in my view) because he was well versed in music, he had immense bhakti (a great incentive) and he loved singing as part of his prayers to rAmA.

I am not disagreeing with that. I am saying that those extempore songs that he broke out into ("bhajana") were almost certainly not in the same polished "classical" form as the compositions that are performed today (unless he had pre-composed them in anticipation of an occasion). If they had been left as they were, they most certainly would not have the popularity that they have today as works of musical art. He and/or his disciples certainly polished them later (both the music and the sahitya), that process is what elevated them to a classical art.

Even great poets like Kalidasa, Dandin, and Bhasa would very rarely have composed extempore, not only because it is humanly impossible to come up with the right words extempore every time, but also because they had to follow rules such as that of meter (chandas). These rules are deliberate and prevent degeneration into a free-for-all. By restraining their impulses and thinking more critically about their initial brilliant ideas, they were able to produce great and refined works of art that stand the test of time. It is next to impossible to compose extempore verses that not only are beautiful but also follow the meters used in classical Sanskrit poetry.

As a matter a fact, the rules constructed for all types of classical arts actively discourage the presentation of extempore ideas unless they are polished/further developed into a "finer" form according to a set of rules. Thus, when one has the additional complexity of setting a poem to raga-based music as well as considerations of prosody, it becomes almost impossible to produce an extempore krti that is already in final polished form.

It definitely was not like presenting a thesis to rAmA (all the perspiration and angst besides inspiration). His state of being would not have let him think of his creating music and songs as drudgery, sweating or struggling.

Why should it be a drudgery ? Perhaps you took my quote from Edison on "perspiration" too literally. Polishing a composition is great fun (or should be) for a composer, and highly rewarding in terms of the quality of the product. Dikshitar positively reveled in it, till the composition was perfect with no rough edges. It is what elevates it to a work of art that can stand for centuries. It is the difference between a rough sketch and a masterpiece painting.

Then again, to ignore the nature of the creative process by taking a predominantly scientific stance does not appeal to me. If it is so with me, how about the Trinity? Surely, they were the very embodiments of abandon...

Let me mention that I am not at all speaking from the view of a scientist or of science. But it is for sure that Art, like Science, is a field of human endeavor where initial brilliant ideas (inspired by divine force, luck, the lord, neural synapses firing at full tilt, the absolute brahman, the Matrix, or whatever one wants to call it) are fueled by painstaking further work. As far as I can see, this is how it has worked throughout the world, I don't see why CM composers must be somehow different. I am not speaking of "popular culture" where anything goes.

How is all this relevant to this thread on "CM Addiction" ? I think the most important thing is to develop a more "rational", more secular, less religious, more broad-based classical music that is not focused only on one facet of human life (namely religious devotion and spirituality). In this respect, hindustani music is far ahead - there is no bias against compositions and themes that have no religious or devotional basis.

Generally it is observed that pursuits that promote a balanced and robust overall view of life tend to attract people of the same disposition, who in turn serve as role models to those who have potential for "addiction" and "dependence" issues. I might draw a parallel to the Persian and Urdu poetry popularized in North India by Mirza Ghalib and others. Typically these poems focused upon "sad" themes like lost love and other general misfortunes of life. Hence it tended to draw somewhat "desperate" types of enthusiasts who saw it as a filling a void (whether real or imagined) in their lives

. Today it is a fading art.

Finally, I must stress that I am not merely using this thread as a plank for promoting my views on how CM should evolve in the future !!

SR

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 24 Jul 2007, 08:46

CML,

My result is MB48(20)

SR

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 24 Jul 2007, 09:52

CML
My result MB49(19(

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 24 Jul 2007, 09:55

cmlover

MB52(18)

-Ramakriya

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 24 Jul 2007, 11:18

my score
FB42(18)

shripathi_g · Post by **shripathi_g** » 24 Jul 2007, 11:47

Ma44(17)

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 24 Jul 2007, 11:52

Scores for my spouse and I
MB52(20)
FB38(19)

rbharath · Post by **rbharath** » 24 Jul 2007, 12:03

Ma57(20)

rbharath · Post by **rbharath** » 24 Jul 2007, 12:04

gosh! my score seems to be more than most others here... :O

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 24 Jul 2007, 12:09

CML,
The scores themselves may not tell anything-rather an analysis of how each question was answered would be more meanigful?