I have off and on wondered what is the x-factor that makes tyAgarAja's music so extraordinary, so special. We can see lots of magic in the end product - the elaborate sangatis, the philosophical contexts, the personal nature of the compositions which lend easily to blend to raga bhAva etc. But if we concentrate on the musical aspects of his works, we find the elaborate sangatis, and phenomenal use of the raga to begin with. This I believe is immediately self-evident to most of us even if many of us dont/didnt understand a single word of telugu.
I was intrigued to see why it is so. Although I can definitely say that I dont have the width of knowledge to do critical comparisons with other composers, based on the little I know, one thing that seems to stand out is "brevity" - in words but more importantly because of underlying brevity in thought. This implies fewer words, and thus a structure that can be plied and stretched to accomodate the sangatis. The language may also help here in being brief (i dont want this to degenerate into language wars - but want to concentrate on brevity of thought)
A few examples where I have just taken the 2 "lines" of pallavi and indicated how many words (even if we split some compound words)
(apologies for mistakes in transliteration and meaning)
sITamma mAyamma SrIrAmuDu mAku taNDri: "
Sita is my mother, Rama is my Father" in just 5 words, spanning 4 cycles of rUpaka (cApu)
brOva bhAramA raghurAmA bhuvanamella nIvai nannokkani:
"RaghurAmA! you are the entire universe, is it a burden to protect (just) me" in 5-6 words spanning 2 cycles of Adi.
SObhillu saptaswara sundarula bhajimpavE manasA:
"Oh Mind, worship the shining, divine qualities of the seven-swaras" in 4-5 words, spanning 4 cycles of rUpaka (cApu)
nAdalOluDai brahmAnandam(u)andavE:
"Oh mind, become absorbed in music and realize supreme bliss" in 2-4 words (i.e. if you split compound words to count word fragments used to convey the thought), spanning 4 cycles of rUpaka (cApu)
cakkani rAja mArgamu lunDaga / sandula Duranela O manasa:
"Oh mind, while there is the grand road (to salvation) is there, why take by-lanes" in just 7 words, 2 cycles of Adi-2 kalai!!!
There are probably many more. But even from this, what I see is "fairly simple and straightforward thought expressed succintly using few words".
Now I dont mean to say this is unique to tyAgaraja but I wonder if this is his natural style, and this seems to be the recipe towards a succint word structure and thus to few words and thus offer huge potential for sangatis. I am sure there are many examples of compositions from othe composers, but if one attempts to "convey too much" (i.e. thougt), then that means you "say too much" (too many words) and that make it less pliable to sangatis?
As a vaggeyakara, is this something people value?
Thoughts?
Arun
tyAgaraja and brevity of thought - the secret formula?
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vasanthakokilam
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Good topic, Arun!
Along the lines you brought out, as another example with a big concept/word count ratio, Thyagaraja's imagination and bhakthi shine brightly in his Enthaninne Sabari expressed in very few words. A good story teller can take just a few lines from such krithis of his and elaborate for an hour or so as an upanyAsam.
That ratio is probably even much higher for MD where he weaves entire mythological stories in a word or two of Sanksrit.
Along the lines you brought out, as another example with a big concept/word count ratio, Thyagaraja's imagination and bhakthi shine brightly in his Enthaninne Sabari expressed in very few words. A good story teller can take just a few lines from such krithis of his and elaborate for an hour or so as an upanyAsam.
That ratio is probably even much higher for MD where he weaves entire mythological stories in a word or two of Sanksrit.
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vijay
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Excellent topic although I have a different take since I can't really appreciate the lyrical content to any meaningful extent. Let me quickly put some of my sleepy thoughts together:
Primarily, Thyagaraja to me was a supreme tunesmith - an innovator par excellence. Example - practically creating a majestic raga like Kharaharapriya and elevating it to the status of a major raga - something that has taken thousands of years of evolution for the Thodis and Saankarabharanams. Ragas like Harikambhoji, Kiravani, Charukeshi (I think) and several other Melas, previously just scales, became ragas thanks to his genius. This alone makes him a towering giant in the galaxy of great composers..
The immediate appeal of many of his krithis, many in relatively obscure ragas - Brova Bharama, Manavyala, Mokshamu Galada to reel off just a few off the top of my head - many of these I understand have been reproduced as film tunes. Again his instinct for a good melody is really striking - especially considering the humungous number of such krithis
Diversity of musical forms - from racy "fillers" to classic 2-kalai krithis in the major ragas, grand and formal Panchratnas - full of lyrical and rhtyhmic dexterity . Just look at the treatment of a raga like Bhairavi - compare the slow moving Upacharamulanu with the flowing sangathis of Rakshabettare and to the delightful twists and turns of Koluvaiyunnade and you get a glimpse into his genius..
I would also hazard a wild premise that his krithis are also more open to intepretation in terms of adding sangathis than, for example, Deekshitar's where the elaborate gamaka structure limits the possibility of liberties. This may have contributed to his relative popularity (besides the fact that his krithis are easier to both sing and appreciate)
Finally, of course there is the direct emotional connection of his compositions - a heady combination of musical erudition and flowing lyricism (in terms of cadence as opposed to literary values which I can't really claim to understand). Sogasuga Mrudanga Talamu, Mokshamugalada, Nagumomu, Kaddanuvariki - there is something about these words/phrases that appeals even to someone unfamiliar with the language!
Looking forward to more discussions on this!
Primarily, Thyagaraja to me was a supreme tunesmith - an innovator par excellence. Example - practically creating a majestic raga like Kharaharapriya and elevating it to the status of a major raga - something that has taken thousands of years of evolution for the Thodis and Saankarabharanams. Ragas like Harikambhoji, Kiravani, Charukeshi (I think) and several other Melas, previously just scales, became ragas thanks to his genius. This alone makes him a towering giant in the galaxy of great composers..
The immediate appeal of many of his krithis, many in relatively obscure ragas - Brova Bharama, Manavyala, Mokshamu Galada to reel off just a few off the top of my head - many of these I understand have been reproduced as film tunes. Again his instinct for a good melody is really striking - especially considering the humungous number of such krithis
Diversity of musical forms - from racy "fillers" to classic 2-kalai krithis in the major ragas, grand and formal Panchratnas - full of lyrical and rhtyhmic dexterity . Just look at the treatment of a raga like Bhairavi - compare the slow moving Upacharamulanu with the flowing sangathis of Rakshabettare and to the delightful twists and turns of Koluvaiyunnade and you get a glimpse into his genius..
I would also hazard a wild premise that his krithis are also more open to intepretation in terms of adding sangathis than, for example, Deekshitar's where the elaborate gamaka structure limits the possibility of liberties. This may have contributed to his relative popularity (besides the fact that his krithis are easier to both sing and appreciate)
Finally, of course there is the direct emotional connection of his compositions - a heady combination of musical erudition and flowing lyricism (in terms of cadence as opposed to literary values which I can't really claim to understand). Sogasuga Mrudanga Talamu, Mokshamugalada, Nagumomu, Kaddanuvariki - there is something about these words/phrases that appeals even to someone unfamiliar with the language!
Looking forward to more discussions on this!
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arunk
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vk,
Yes that is another dimension i.e. one aspect of lyrical felicity. Expressing "profound thoughts" with fewer words. But let us say you have even a seemingly simple, straightforward thought like "Sita is my mother, Sri Rama is my father" (although one can add many interpretations to it). The fact it being simple could result in fewer words although not automatically (i.e. composers' lyrical felicity is a factor). This in turn results in being pliable for sangatis and that thought turns out to be very grand with the help of music.
To elaborarate, let us take your example entaninnE (btw is it enta ninE or enta ninnE?). The meaning of pallavi is How do I describe/ your blessing/"fortune", Sabari?. Two great aspects here:
1. He is saying so much by saying so little i.e one can add so much interpretation to these few words.
2. He is expressing a simple thought and (perhaps thus) in few words.
I was focusing on #2, and you added #1. Both are excellent aspects but I wonder if they are perhaps somewhat orthogonal. For a song to be very elaborate musically w.r.t. potential for sangatis etc., #2 may be enough (assuming simple thought does result in correct few words). It can have a powerful impact musically depending on how effective the raga used. However, for the song to have profound spiritual impact (or non-spirtual yet powerful impact) via lyrics, #1 is essential.
Obviously tyAgarAja's works have both #1 and #2.
Arun
Yes that is another dimension i.e. one aspect of lyrical felicity. Expressing "profound thoughts" with fewer words. But let us say you have even a seemingly simple, straightforward thought like "Sita is my mother, Sri Rama is my father" (although one can add many interpretations to it). The fact it being simple could result in fewer words although not automatically (i.e. composers' lyrical felicity is a factor). This in turn results in being pliable for sangatis and that thought turns out to be very grand with the help of music.
To elaborarate, let us take your example entaninnE (btw is it enta ninE or enta ninnE?). The meaning of pallavi is How do I describe/ your blessing/"fortune", Sabari?. Two great aspects here:
1. He is saying so much by saying so little i.e one can add so much interpretation to these few words.
2. He is expressing a simple thought and (perhaps thus) in few words.
I was focusing on #2, and you added #1. Both are excellent aspects but I wonder if they are perhaps somewhat orthogonal. For a song to be very elaborate musically w.r.t. potential for sangatis etc., #2 may be enough (assuming simple thought does result in correct few words). It can have a powerful impact musically depending on how effective the raga used. However, for the song to have profound spiritual impact (or non-spirtual yet powerful impact) via lyrics, #1 is essential.
Obviously tyAgarAja's works have both #1 and #2.
Arun
Last edited by arunk on 23 Jun 2007, 01:42, edited 1 time in total.
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arunk
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vijay,
You have summarized what the different aspects of tyAgarAja's works that makes them so wonderful and appeal to you (btw tODi may not be that old - maybe 500 years). Can you give some more thought about why?
Arun
You have summarized what the different aspects of tyAgarAja's works that makes them so wonderful and appeal to you (btw tODi may not be that old - maybe 500 years). Can you give some more thought about why?
Can you pl. elaborate on this? Even with dIkshitar (dakshinAmUrtE seems to be in mind now for some reason) there are songs where one word is decorated magnificently with sangatis. Although I am not 100% sure, I would be surprised if his big krithis just wouldnt have allowed an evolution style like tyAgarAja i.e. many sangatis.I would also hazard a wild premise that his krithis are also more open to intepretation in terms of adding sangathis than, for example, Deekshitar's where the elaborate gamaka structure limits the possibility of libertie
Arun
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vasanthakokilam
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arasi
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Yes, indeed. You three have covered a lot of ground here. My thoughts too, more or less.
Arun,
Your point about tyAgarAjA's saying a 'lot' with a few words is true. I have a feeling he did not deliberate it. He sang his heart out. That's why there are more verses in many songs which we don't get to hear these days. Yet, just that one pallavi and four more lines are enough to make an impact. 'His bhakthi and imagination shine brightly', as VK puts it, even in those few lines or a single line.
Vijay,
I agree with you on the MD kritis take. He is a classicist--one can't play around too much with his solidly constructed kritis as much as you can with T's compositions. Language comes into the picture here. Sanskrit saying a lot in a few select words (that is where your telling the mythological stories comes in, I think, VK.) Telugu, the musical language is a perfect vehicle for emoting and to add to T's lyricism. What MD can achieve in a short kriti when it comes to 'story telling', TyAgarAjA, as good as he is with words and is capable of brevity, can't acheive it without a number of verses. Same in thamizh and kannadA, I think. MalayaLAm shares the benefits of sanskrit too while it can be lyrical like its sister languages. I am not saying thamizh can't compare with sanskrit in conveying thoughts in brevity. It can, and so can the sister languages. Otherwise, there won't be a thirukkuRaL and other poetic works. I am merely saying that in musical compositions, when it comes to describing or telling a story, sanskrit has the edge in brevity.
Emoting (as we are discussing in the other thread--what sowkyam and bhAvam are), as I see it, is achieved by a rAgA, the words in a song, the composer's fervor, the language it is sung in, the sangathis AND the singer (player). I am sure there is much more to it...
Arun,
Your point about tyAgarAjA's saying a 'lot' with a few words is true. I have a feeling he did not deliberate it. He sang his heart out. That's why there are more verses in many songs which we don't get to hear these days. Yet, just that one pallavi and four more lines are enough to make an impact. 'His bhakthi and imagination shine brightly', as VK puts it, even in those few lines or a single line.
Vijay,
I agree with you on the MD kritis take. He is a classicist--one can't play around too much with his solidly constructed kritis as much as you can with T's compositions. Language comes into the picture here. Sanskrit saying a lot in a few select words (that is where your telling the mythological stories comes in, I think, VK.) Telugu, the musical language is a perfect vehicle for emoting and to add to T's lyricism. What MD can achieve in a short kriti when it comes to 'story telling', TyAgarAjA, as good as he is with words and is capable of brevity, can't acheive it without a number of verses. Same in thamizh and kannadA, I think. MalayaLAm shares the benefits of sanskrit too while it can be lyrical like its sister languages. I am not saying thamizh can't compare with sanskrit in conveying thoughts in brevity. It can, and so can the sister languages. Otherwise, there won't be a thirukkuRaL and other poetic works. I am merely saying that in musical compositions, when it comes to describing or telling a story, sanskrit has the edge in brevity.
Emoting (as we are discussing in the other thread--what sowkyam and bhAvam are), as I see it, is achieved by a rAgA, the words in a song, the composer's fervor, the language it is sung in, the sangathis AND the singer (player). I am sure there is much more to it...
Last edited by arasi on 23 Jun 2007, 07:22, edited 1 time in total.
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vijay
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Arun - I am not too sure I can add much to Arasi's expert insights - a large part of the answer does lie in Sankrit's brevity as compared to Telugu's flowing nature.
Also, I am no expert on this but I feel that the gamakas in Deekshitar's compositions do not lend themselves very well to variations without significantly distorting their delicate nature. My familiarity with Daskhinamurthe is limited to no more than half a dozen listening experiences so I am not really qualified to comment on that but I do admit there are krithis like Maragatha Vallim which would certainly seem to be susceptible to some "experimentation". However many others, especially those delightful Vilambakala krithis such as Ananda Natana Prakaasham or Rangapura Vihara are much less so. Also Deekhistar's anupallavis are usually more tightly packed than Thyagaraja's.
I think Thyagaraja's krithis tend to "suggest" the outline of some very original melodies whereas Deekshitar uses a fine chisel to carve out exquisite details from familiar phrases. This is just an gut impression based on my listening experience - I lack the knowledge or the patience to undertake a compositional analysis but someone who has may elaborate. Interestingly critics of western music have drawn similar parallels between Mozart (flowing, easy to appreciate) and Beethoven (elaborate and heavily worked out).
As to why I find Thyagaraja's compositions appealing - basically the intrinsic appeal of his tunes, the "musical and spiritual aptness" of his sahithya, the scope for sangathis and for numerous little innovations like the -1/2 ardhi feature that is so predominant in his 2-kalai compositions.
Also, I am no expert on this but I feel that the gamakas in Deekshitar's compositions do not lend themselves very well to variations without significantly distorting their delicate nature. My familiarity with Daskhinamurthe is limited to no more than half a dozen listening experiences so I am not really qualified to comment on that but I do admit there are krithis like Maragatha Vallim which would certainly seem to be susceptible to some "experimentation". However many others, especially those delightful Vilambakala krithis such as Ananda Natana Prakaasham or Rangapura Vihara are much less so. Also Deekhistar's anupallavis are usually more tightly packed than Thyagaraja's.
I think Thyagaraja's krithis tend to "suggest" the outline of some very original melodies whereas Deekshitar uses a fine chisel to carve out exquisite details from familiar phrases. This is just an gut impression based on my listening experience - I lack the knowledge or the patience to undertake a compositional analysis but someone who has may elaborate. Interestingly critics of western music have drawn similar parallels between Mozart (flowing, easy to appreciate) and Beethoven (elaborate and heavily worked out).
As to why I find Thyagaraja's compositions appealing - basically the intrinsic appeal of his tunes, the "musical and spiritual aptness" of his sahithya, the scope for sangathis and for numerous little innovations like the -1/2 ardhi feature that is so predominant in his 2-kalai compositions.
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arunk
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arasi, vijay
(note: i have edited my original post with changes beyond basic spelling and grammar)
maybe i am misunderstanding but you guys may be arguing the exact opposite position I was putting across. I said brevity of thought leads to brevity in words which in turn alllows for the potential for elaborate sangatis (with variations). So the key is brevity of words but in tyAgarAja'a worsks I put forth that this was perhaps due to brevity of thought (or perhaps it is really brevity in expressing the theme of the composition as in the pallavi part).
Now if Sanskrit can be best in brevity of words (no argument on this!) then I would think it offers widest scope for sangatis. But you guys are saying that while it offers brevity in words, it doesnt allow for too much musical interpretation beyond a point.
I do know that dIkshitar's krithis are handled differently and the general opinion among many is there are tough etc.. I also feel that somehow dIskhitar's krithis "wouldnt be the same" if musically interpreted like tyAgarAja's with extra sangatis etc.
But is it because of their intrinsic nature (i.e. owing to the language as well as structure) OR because how they were treated by subsequent practiotioneers i.e. descendents/sishyas etc.?
On one hand I think just plain musically, fewer words (or syllables) per avartanam will always provide more spacing with which sangati variations can be done (if so desired) It also may not have to do with viLamba kAla etc. So per this any song with approp spacing could accomodate sangatis.
However, on the other hand, I think multiple variations cascading sangatis in viLamba kAla krithi somehow seem to be not as a good a fit as for madyamakala. Also, with dIkshitar's compositions, there is a an inherent majestic, refined gait/feel to the compositions, which may perhaps be upset by over-employment of sangati variations to show raga contours as in tyAgarAja's songs? This inherent feel of the compositions could be aided in large due the language and the theme of dIkshitar's compositions (i.e. mostly impersonal).
Arun
(note: i have edited my original post with changes beyond basic spelling and grammar)
maybe i am misunderstanding but you guys may be arguing the exact opposite position I was putting across. I said brevity of thought leads to brevity in words which in turn alllows for the potential for elaborate sangatis (with variations). So the key is brevity of words but in tyAgarAja'a worsks I put forth that this was perhaps due to brevity of thought (or perhaps it is really brevity in expressing the theme of the composition as in the pallavi part).
Now if Sanskrit can be best in brevity of words (no argument on this!) then I would think it offers widest scope for sangatis. But you guys are saying that while it offers brevity in words, it doesnt allow for too much musical interpretation beyond a point.
I do know that dIkshitar's krithis are handled differently and the general opinion among many is there are tough etc.. I also feel that somehow dIskhitar's krithis "wouldnt be the same" if musically interpreted like tyAgarAja's with extra sangatis etc.
But is it because of their intrinsic nature (i.e. owing to the language as well as structure) OR because how they were treated by subsequent practiotioneers i.e. descendents/sishyas etc.?
On one hand I think just plain musically, fewer words (or syllables) per avartanam will always provide more spacing with which sangati variations can be done (if so desired) It also may not have to do with viLamba kAla etc. So per this any song with approp spacing could accomodate sangatis.
However, on the other hand, I think multiple variations cascading sangatis in viLamba kAla krithi somehow seem to be not as a good a fit as for madyamakala. Also, with dIkshitar's compositions, there is a an inherent majestic, refined gait/feel to the compositions, which may perhaps be upset by over-employment of sangati variations to show raga contours as in tyAgarAja's songs? This inherent feel of the compositions could be aided in large due the language and the theme of dIkshitar's compositions (i.e. mostly impersonal).
Arun
Last edited by arunk on 23 Jun 2007, 21:28, edited 1 time in total.
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arasi
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Vijay,
I disagree with your remark about 'my expert insights'. I have no expertise but a listening ear (an ancient one at that). Having said that, we think along the same lines, more or less . Your mentioning 'marakata vallIm' focuses on the complexity of it all. I have a feeling, the rAgA helps here as well, let alone the structure of the composition.
'Mozart and Beethoven' example helps too. Romanticism versus classicism? Interesting. Language does not come in there--as in flowing telugu versus majestic sanskrit. Yet, they both are different in their expertise. I have to admit I used to think of MD as intimidating when I was a youngster. Tough, I used to think, since all the words were in sanskrit which I didn't know (Arun makes a mention of it too). I have grown to admire MD more and more, and as I advance in age, I see I am developing a new kind of admiration for him. My! The way he has hammered out those musical phrases to suit his words! Marble is wax in his deft hands in bringing out any rAgA's intrinsic beauty. If you know a song of his in a particular rAgA, you have got it all (the same can apply to T as well, I don't deny). For somone who looked upon MD as Bach, I have come a long way.
Arun,
That's interesting, the way you distinguish between brevity of words and thoughts. You are right. They are two different things. Saying a lot of things in a few words is sanskrit's strength. How is it when it comes to thoughts? I have no idea. DRS would know. CML is away.
Thoughts. Aren't they feelings too? In which case, we see them much more in T. And the language? An ideal one to convey them in! Then comes in the personalities of the composers...
I disagree with your remark about 'my expert insights'. I have no expertise but a listening ear (an ancient one at that). Having said that, we think along the same lines, more or less . Your mentioning 'marakata vallIm' focuses on the complexity of it all. I have a feeling, the rAgA helps here as well, let alone the structure of the composition.
'Mozart and Beethoven' example helps too. Romanticism versus classicism? Interesting. Language does not come in there--as in flowing telugu versus majestic sanskrit. Yet, they both are different in their expertise. I have to admit I used to think of MD as intimidating when I was a youngster. Tough, I used to think, since all the words were in sanskrit which I didn't know (Arun makes a mention of it too). I have grown to admire MD more and more, and as I advance in age, I see I am developing a new kind of admiration for him. My! The way he has hammered out those musical phrases to suit his words! Marble is wax in his deft hands in bringing out any rAgA's intrinsic beauty. If you know a song of his in a particular rAgA, you have got it all (the same can apply to T as well, I don't deny). For somone who looked upon MD as Bach, I have come a long way.
Arun,
That's interesting, the way you distinguish between brevity of words and thoughts. You are right. They are two different things. Saying a lot of things in a few words is sanskrit's strength. How is it when it comes to thoughts? I have no idea. DRS would know. CML is away.
Thoughts. Aren't they feelings too? In which case, we see them much more in T. And the language? An ideal one to convey them in! Then comes in the personalities of the composers...
Last edited by arasi on 23 Jun 2007, 21:29, edited 1 time in total.
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arunk
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As hinted in my earlier post, the closer I look, I wonder that tyAgarAja's "brevity of thought" really translates to "brevity of expression of theme in the pallavi".
I was looking yesterday at a book of his compositions, simply looking at the compositions from the beginning. Among the krithis I have heard in concerts, invariably the pallavi is very concise expression of some theme which is then "explained" (or tied back) in anupalllavi and of course charanams. I dont know telugu, but looking at explanations etc. it seems like he first presents a synopis in the pallavi, then goes into more and more detail in anupallavi and caranams. So I dont know if the same level of brevity applies equally across entire composition. It perhaps applies most to pallavi and maybe anupallavi. But again, musically to me his krithis grab you in pallavi and anu-pallavi itself. In most cases just the pallavi and the sangati variations. So I am still sticking to my original thought but sort of refining it a bit.
Here is a short list of more compositions and the meaning behind pallavi which follow the above. Note that I have just tried to give literal meaning of the words (i.e. without implied additional contexts). The meanings are from that book and other sources and I have tried to prune additional interpretation if I could. Apologies for mistakes. It would be better if I knew word by word meanings for all and we can see what is seeing in each word.
As you can see I was looking at a book where compositions were presented alphabetically in english - and this is up to D
.
I urge you all to please do look up the sahitya of these songs and also listen to renditions) to really see "short and concise" the pallavi parts are, and how they are presented musically. Also you can see in many cases, the theme expands in later parts of the song.
appa rAmabhakthi (pantuvarALi): Devotion to Rama, Father is supreme
ADamOdi galada (cArukEshi): Ramayya! You should you have reservations to talk to me?
AragimpavE (tODi): (Please) accept the offering of the milk.
BaDalikadIra (rItigowLa): Take rest and feel refreshed.
bhakthi bhIksha (SankarAbharaNam): Grant me the gift of devotion, pure and en-nobling.
buddhi rAdu (SankarAbharaNam): Wisdom wont come if you dont listen to words of the wise.
banTurIti (hamsanAdam): Rama! Grant me the post of a guard/servant (in your court) (??)
calamElarA (mArgahindOLam): (Oh) Rama of Ayodya, Why are you cross with me?
cani tODi (harikAmbhOji): O mind! go and fetch Him
cerarAvadEmirA (rItigowLa): Ramayya! Who dont you freely mix with me?
dAcukOlavEna (tODi): O son of Dasaratha! Why do you conceal your compassion to me?
dhyAnamE (dhanyAsi): O mind! meditation alone is (like) a (sacred) dip in ganges.
dorakuNA (bilahari): Will it ever be possible to have the privelege of such a dharshana?
dvaitamu sukhama (rItigowLa): Does dvaitam give happiness (or) adhvaitam give happiness?
Some like dorakuNa is an extremely short pallavi but if you listen to it - you can see how beautifully it is stretched musically. The caranams are lengthy in that one.
Arun
I was looking yesterday at a book of his compositions, simply looking at the compositions from the beginning. Among the krithis I have heard in concerts, invariably the pallavi is very concise expression of some theme which is then "explained" (or tied back) in anupalllavi and of course charanams. I dont know telugu, but looking at explanations etc. it seems like he first presents a synopis in the pallavi, then goes into more and more detail in anupallavi and caranams. So I dont know if the same level of brevity applies equally across entire composition. It perhaps applies most to pallavi and maybe anupallavi. But again, musically to me his krithis grab you in pallavi and anu-pallavi itself. In most cases just the pallavi and the sangati variations. So I am still sticking to my original thought but sort of refining it a bit.
Here is a short list of more compositions and the meaning behind pallavi which follow the above. Note that I have just tried to give literal meaning of the words (i.e. without implied additional contexts). The meanings are from that book and other sources and I have tried to prune additional interpretation if I could. Apologies for mistakes. It would be better if I knew word by word meanings for all and we can see what is seeing in each word.
As you can see I was looking at a book where compositions were presented alphabetically in english - and this is up to D
. I urge you all to please do look up the sahitya of these songs and also listen to renditions) to really see "short and concise" the pallavi parts are, and how they are presented musically. Also you can see in many cases, the theme expands in later parts of the song.
appa rAmabhakthi (pantuvarALi): Devotion to Rama, Father is supreme
ADamOdi galada (cArukEshi): Ramayya! You should you have reservations to talk to me?
AragimpavE (tODi): (Please) accept the offering of the milk.
BaDalikadIra (rItigowLa): Take rest and feel refreshed.
bhakthi bhIksha (SankarAbharaNam): Grant me the gift of devotion, pure and en-nobling.
buddhi rAdu (SankarAbharaNam): Wisdom wont come if you dont listen to words of the wise.
banTurIti (hamsanAdam): Rama! Grant me the post of a guard/servant (in your court) (??)
calamElarA (mArgahindOLam): (Oh) Rama of Ayodya, Why are you cross with me?
cani tODi (harikAmbhOji): O mind! go and fetch Him
cerarAvadEmirA (rItigowLa): Ramayya! Who dont you freely mix with me?
dAcukOlavEna (tODi): O son of Dasaratha! Why do you conceal your compassion to me?
dhyAnamE (dhanyAsi): O mind! meditation alone is (like) a (sacred) dip in ganges.
dorakuNA (bilahari): Will it ever be possible to have the privelege of such a dharshana?
dvaitamu sukhama (rItigowLa): Does dvaitam give happiness (or) adhvaitam give happiness?
Some like dorakuNa is an extremely short pallavi but if you listen to it - you can see how beautifully it is stretched musically. The caranams are lengthy in that one.
Arun
Last edited by arunk on 23 Jun 2007, 22:32, edited 1 time in total.
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arasi
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Those who are well-versed in telugu--can 'appa! rAma bhakthi gopparA!' also be translated as: my! How great is rAmabhakthi! ?? appa not meaning father, but just a word to express wonderment?? Always wondered about this.
Arun,
Nice of you to list some songs. I am sure there are others who want to discuss this too...
Arun,
Nice of you to list some songs. I am sure there are others who want to discuss this too...
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Suji Ram
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Arasi,arasi wrote:Those who are well-versed in telugu--can 'appa! rAma bhakthi gopparA!' also be translated as: my! How great is rAmabhakthi! ?? appa not meaning father, but just a word to express wonderment?? Always wondered about this.
Arun,
Nice of you to list some songs. I am sure there are others who want to discuss this too...
May be it refers to "divine"
It is more like a like prefix.
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arunk
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it means only father. Here is a reference (which quotes from from TKG's book): http://www.ecse.rpi.edu/Homepages/shivk ... hakthi.htm
gopparA - means great, noble, divine etc.
So the gist I gave above is not accurate and should have been really: How noble/divine is bhakthi to my father Rama!
Arun
gopparA - means great, noble, divine etc.
So the gist I gave above is not accurate and should have been really: How noble/divine is bhakthi to my father Rama!
Arun
Last edited by arunk on 24 Jun 2007, 07:38, edited 1 time in total.
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vgvindan
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In order to express wonderment it should be 'appA' - elongated at the end. In the present form 'appa' which is given so in all the books, it cannot be translated/interpreted so. However, with 'mA' given at the end of pallavi and each caraNa, it can be translated as 'my father' only even if the word is elongated at the end as 'appA' because 'mAyappa' or 'mAyappA' would mean same.
Even otherwise, with the word 'gopparA' it means wonderment only.
Please refer to the kRti in our wiki - http://www.rasikas.org/wiki/appa-rama
'appa rAma bhakti' cannot be related to Sanskrit word 'apara'.
In this regard, I am reminded of the kRti 'manasA Sri rAmuni daya' rAga mAra ranjani ( http://www.rasikas.org/wiki/manasa-sri-rama ) wherein a word 'oDi gaTTi' meaning 'set out to commit (crime)' occurs. Without understanding the meaning the word, it has been converted as 'kOTa gaTTi' in some books and the meaning derived is 'raising a fortress'.
Let us first get the true meanings of the words of the kRtis with reference to context and then go for interpretations.
Even otherwise, with the word 'gopparA' it means wonderment only.
Please refer to the kRti in our wiki - http://www.rasikas.org/wiki/appa-rama
'appa rAma bhakti' cannot be related to Sanskrit word 'apara'.
In this regard, I am reminded of the kRti 'manasA Sri rAmuni daya' rAga mAra ranjani ( http://www.rasikas.org/wiki/manasa-sri-rama ) wherein a word 'oDi gaTTi' meaning 'set out to commit (crime)' occurs. Without understanding the meaning the word, it has been converted as 'kOTa gaTTi' in some books and the meaning derived is 'raising a fortress'.
Let us first get the true meanings of the words of the kRtis with reference to context and then go for interpretations.
Last edited by vgvindan on 24 Jun 2007, 10:10, edited 1 time in total.
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arunk
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True indeed. I find "gist of meaning of entire sentence" in books, which is usually with lot of additional interpretation to be quite useless beyond quite a peripheral understanding. Certainly quite inadequate for being able to sing the song. I dont understand why entire books which provide notation, simply just give sahitya and just english/tamil sentences to describe the meanings of pallavi, anupallavi sections.vgvindan wrote:Let us first get the true meanings of the words of the kRtis with reference to context and then go for interpretations.
Ideally I would like word-by-word meaning, a literal meaning of the sentence and then interpretive explanations. I think all are required for a singer to grasp the words correctly and maybe even know where word splits (for taking breaths) are allowable, and how they should be done etc. particularly in long compound words, and also know the true meaning and intent behind the song
??. Which word does "it" here refer to? It cannot be "appa" per your earlier para but then you have added "even otherwise". A bit confusing to me. I presume you mean gopparA means wonderment? Is the the telugu root word which led to the (extremely) colloquial "engoppurAnE" used even in some communities of tamil to express wondermentvgvindan wrote:Even otherwise, with the word 'gopparA' it means wonderment only.
? Is gopparA also colloquial in telugu? I ask as I did look up goppa in a dictionary yesterday (http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/brown/):So would the literal meaning of the sentence be "How-great ((y)entO gopparA) is bhakthi (bhakthi) to my (mA) father (appa) Rama (rAma)?"goppa (p. 0388) [ goppa ] goppa. [Tel.] adj. Great in any sense, noble, koncemu goppa more or less, some trifle, a certain quantity. goppa n. Greatness, size, respectability.
Arun
Last edited by arunk on 24 Jun 2007, 18:56, edited 1 time in total.
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vgvindan
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arun,
You have got it correctly. The word 'gopparA' means wonderment. 'it' refers to pallavi of the kRti. If you had referred to the link of wiki, you would have found the meaning of pallavi derived as "How excellent is the devotion to our father rAma is!"
In case you are interested in word-by-word meanings of Thyagaraja kRitis please refer to my weblogs - http://thyagaraja.sulekha.com/blog/posts.htm and http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.com/
This kRti with word-by-word Meaning can be found at - http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.co ... -raga.html and http://thyagaraja.sulekha.com/blog/post ... vam-28.htm
You have got it correctly. The word 'gopparA' means wonderment. 'it' refers to pallavi of the kRti. If you had referred to the link of wiki, you would have found the meaning of pallavi derived as "How excellent is the devotion to our father rAma is!"
In case you are interested in word-by-word meanings of Thyagaraja kRitis please refer to my weblogs - http://thyagaraja.sulekha.com/blog/posts.htm and http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.com/
This kRti with word-by-word Meaning can be found at - http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.co ... -raga.html and http://thyagaraja.sulekha.com/blog/post ... vam-28.htm
Last edited by vgvindan on 24 Jun 2007, 19:36, edited 1 time in total.
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arunk
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thanks vgv. I did look at your link but unlike your usual pages this one didnt have word-by-word meaning and so I sort of missed the import.
I do refer to your blogs - they are excellent! But somehow missed this one - not thorough googling + impatience to post being the culprits.
Like I said, I like it best when additional interpretations arent mixed in from the start even when giving word-by-word meaning but kept as "additional explanation". This of course this applies for more for the topic of this thread. For e.g. TKG book says "sublime and great" for gopparA. It says "how very" for entO. It is not clear which part is literal, which is contextual, which is interpretative. One other book I have simply says "Devotion to Sri Rama, Father Divine, is supreme" - now it is obvious this is a completely interpretive meaning which sheds little light on the meanings of the individual words. It doesnt even convey the tone somthing which is clearly conveyed by the literal meanings of the words themselves
Arun
I do refer to your blogs - they are excellent! But somehow missed this one - not thorough googling + impatience to post being the culprits.
Like I said, I like it best when additional interpretations arent mixed in from the start even when giving word-by-word meaning but kept as "additional explanation". This of course this applies for more for the topic of this thread. For e.g. TKG book says "sublime and great" for gopparA. It says "how very" for entO. It is not clear which part is literal, which is contextual, which is interpretative. One other book I have simply says "Devotion to Sri Rama, Father Divine, is supreme" - now it is obvious this is a completely interpretive meaning which sheds little light on the meanings of the individual words. It doesnt even convey the tone somthing which is clearly conveyed by the literal meanings of the words themselves
Arun
Last edited by arunk on 24 Jun 2007, 20:08, edited 1 time in total.
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vgvindan
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rs,
I may add 'abba' is same as 'appa', but, generally, 'abba' standing alone, is considered a slang among Telugus of Tamil Nadu - something equivalent to Tamil 'appan' (though 'appan' is used to refer to Lord). zrI tyAgarAja has used only 'appa' or 'ayya', or 'anna' - all meaning 'father', but never 'abba'
However, when used as 'abba amma', it is respectable.
I may add 'abba' is same as 'appa', but, generally, 'abba' standing alone, is considered a slang among Telugus of Tamil Nadu - something equivalent to Tamil 'appan' (though 'appan' is used to refer to Lord). zrI tyAgarAja has used only 'appa' or 'ayya', or 'anna' - all meaning 'father', but never 'abba'
However, when used as 'abba amma', it is respectable.
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rajeshnat
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I am unable to make up my mind whether I am just praising ThyagarAja swami or the language telugu which is musically perfect for CM. "manasu nilpa shakti lEka pOtE madhura ghaNTa vIrula pUja Emi jEyunu", look at every word it ends with a vowel giving a parachute like safety for a sky diver(carnatic musician) to deliver the abstractness of CM with sure sowkhyam landing. Particularly this krithi in CM is very special to me , when I was 13 I did not know if it was either an AbhOgi or even cared to know about if it is a telugu composition , but just picked and heard few words(like manasu shakti...) and it just gave a very very faint signal at the age of 13 that perhaps the composer is connecting mind and music. ThyagarAja makes you visualize carnatic music in both known and unknown parameters (whether rAga anubhavam, sahitya anubhavam ,sowkhyam, super hackneyed word bhAvam) and the beauty is even if you dont really care for few parameters , he intelligently coerces you without you losing those few parameters which are so dear to you.(as what happened to me at the age of 13 where sahitya anubhuvam though faint was still there on me?). That was me in one side of the spectrum who absolutely never cares about sAhityam and meaning.
On the same note ,I met our vgv who is perhaps exactly the opposite side of the spectrum during madurai gs mani's concert.The concert was about to start , we had just few minutes to talk.
rajesh : VGV, If your interest is so much on thyagarAja swami's sAhitya anubhavam ,and I am assuming your interest in musical part of CM is very less, why don't you pick up a very good spiritual/religious book , perhaps there you could find more of spirituality . What is so special in thyagarAja swami that you cannot find in books or other discourses.
VGV: Rajesh, what thyarAjar gives me is anurAga bhakthi, I can see the entire upanishads and gita covered in his krithis.
Rajesh: And when VGV said anurAga anubhavam, I did ask the meaning of anurAga bhakthi, as I was not too sure though had a vague meaning .I could spot immediately the anurAga bhakthi in his eyes as he gave the meaning.
Bottomline,thyagarAja swami achieves excellence in what ever perspective you choose to view carnatic music.Other vaggeyakkaras may be there but definitely it takes more time for us to appreciate as much as sadguru thyagarAja .
On the same note ,I met our vgv who is perhaps exactly the opposite side of the spectrum during madurai gs mani's concert.The concert was about to start , we had just few minutes to talk.
rajesh : VGV, If your interest is so much on thyagarAja swami's sAhitya anubhavam ,and I am assuming your interest in musical part of CM is very less, why don't you pick up a very good spiritual/religious book , perhaps there you could find more of spirituality . What is so special in thyagarAja swami that you cannot find in books or other discourses.
VGV: Rajesh, what thyarAjar gives me is anurAga bhakthi, I can see the entire upanishads and gita covered in his krithis.
Rajesh: And when VGV said anurAga anubhavam, I did ask the meaning of anurAga bhakthi, as I was not too sure though had a vague meaning .I could spot immediately the anurAga bhakthi in his eyes as he gave the meaning.
Bottomline,thyagarAja swami achieves excellence in what ever perspective you choose to view carnatic music.Other vaggeyakkaras may be there but definitely it takes more time for us to appreciate as much as sadguru thyagarAja .
Last edited by rajeshnat on 26 Jun 2007, 19:15, edited 1 time in total.
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annapoorne
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Goppa Deivama ?
Some art moves you,some others affect you so deeply you stand still
and the world seems to stop for that moment .
Chinna NAde NA Cheyyi PattiTheevo emotes Tyagaraja's tete-a-tete with Lord Rama
where he promises to hold his hand and lead him through.Tyagaraja asks Rama if he is now pondering about whether to hold his hand or let him go .
The lines "Goppa Deivama ? "seem to bring out such an emotion which will take a million colours to paint ,another few million words to describe . A feeling mixed with sarcasm,sorrow the lines emote so beautifully .
It is such a wonder that after so many many years an unrecorded tune should bring forth his deepest feelings, so well preserved .Such bold dialogues with what is Beyond,such intimacy finding that which is beyond within,such dejection, such a tune ,such words ,such truth ,such poetry,such so many things .....
It seems when art is produced with all truth it captures a thought so well and frees it from the cycle of time .Thus arresting it forever.
To be able to connect in some small way to such a soul , shakes me "still".
Here DK Jayaraman presents the song .
Here is a link to Shashank playing a sedate Chinnanadena.
p.s : sometimes links to Musicindiaonline do not function .Please use the search tool at those times.
.......I wanted to share this blog I read by our forum member Ahiri
Some art moves you,some others affect you so deeply you stand still
and the world seems to stop for that moment .
Chinna NAde NA Cheyyi PattiTheevo emotes Tyagaraja's tete-a-tete with Lord Rama
where he promises to hold his hand and lead him through.Tyagaraja asks Rama if he is now pondering about whether to hold his hand or let him go .
The lines "Goppa Deivama ? "seem to bring out such an emotion which will take a million colours to paint ,another few million words to describe . A feeling mixed with sarcasm,sorrow the lines emote so beautifully .
It is such a wonder that after so many many years an unrecorded tune should bring forth his deepest feelings, so well preserved .Such bold dialogues with what is Beyond,such intimacy finding that which is beyond within,such dejection, such a tune ,such words ,such truth ,such poetry,such so many things .....
It seems when art is produced with all truth it captures a thought so well and frees it from the cycle of time .Thus arresting it forever.
To be able to connect in some small way to such a soul , shakes me "still".
Here DK Jayaraman presents the song .
Here is a link to Shashank playing a sedate Chinnanadena.
p.s : sometimes links to Musicindiaonline do not function .Please use the search tool at those times.
.......I wanted to share this blog I read by our forum member Ahiri
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vgvindan
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Self-assessment of work done by Sri tyAgarAja
rAga ratna-rItigauLa
P rAga ratna mAlikacE ranjillun(a)Ta hari Sata
A bAga sEvinci sakala bhAgyam(a)ndudAmu rArE (rAga)
C naigama ShaT-SAstra purAN(A)gam(A)rtha sahitam(a)Ta
yOgi varulu Anandamun(o)ndE san-mArgam(a)Ta
bhAgavat(O)ttamulu gUDi pADE kIrtamul(a)Ta
tyAgarAju kaDa tEra tArakamani cEsina Sata (rAga)
It is said that Lord hari would shine forth adorned with the garland made of hundreds of exquisite rAgas.
Come, let us attain all the fortunes of life by worshipping Him devoutly with these kIrtanas.
It is said that these kIrtanas contain the true meanings of vEdas, the six zAstras, the epics and Agamas; it is said that singing of these kIrtanas lead one in the same true path of God realization following which the great ascetics attain the divine bliss; it is said that these are the kIrtanas which the best of devotees collectively sing; it is said that Lord hari would shine forth adorned with the garland made of hundreds of exquisite rAgas composed, as a means of fording the Ocean of Worldly Existence for redemption, by this tyAgarAja.
rAga ratna-rItigauLa
P rAga ratna mAlikacE ranjillun(a)Ta hari Sata
A bAga sEvinci sakala bhAgyam(a)ndudAmu rArE (rAga)
C naigama ShaT-SAstra purAN(A)gam(A)rtha sahitam(a)Ta
yOgi varulu Anandamun(o)ndE san-mArgam(a)Ta
bhAgavat(O)ttamulu gUDi pADE kIrtamul(a)Ta
tyAgarAju kaDa tEra tArakamani cEsina Sata (rAga)
It is said that Lord hari would shine forth adorned with the garland made of hundreds of exquisite rAgas.
Come, let us attain all the fortunes of life by worshipping Him devoutly with these kIrtanas.
It is said that these kIrtanas contain the true meanings of vEdas, the six zAstras, the epics and Agamas; it is said that singing of these kIrtanas lead one in the same true path of God realization following which the great ascetics attain the divine bliss; it is said that these are the kIrtanas which the best of devotees collectively sing; it is said that Lord hari would shine forth adorned with the garland made of hundreds of exquisite rAgas composed, as a means of fording the Ocean of Worldly Existence for redemption, by this tyAgarAja.
Last edited by vgvindan on 27 Jun 2007, 10:40, edited 1 time in total.
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kalgada78
- Posts: 210
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I remember Sri Yuvaturi Vijayeswara Rao garu talking about AdamOdi galadE in Charukesi.
As some try to remember a Mela as a combination of pUrvAngam and uttarAngam,Charukesi
is a combination of SankarAbharanam in the pUrvAngam and TOdi in the uttarAngam.
In the anupallavi of AdamOdi,the beginning words are "Todu needa Neeve" and the swaram for that is "PA da Ni da Ni Sa",which is an UttarAngam phrase.YuvatUri garu observe that Thyagaraja emphasized the raga Todi,as the phrase is in UttarAngam.
In the charanam,"sankarAnsudai" has the swaram "Ga Ri Ri Ma Ga Ga Ri Sa Sa",which is a PUrvAngam phrase,representing Sankarabharanam.
Does anyone know of any other krithis where similar logic is applicable,or is it just a coincidence in AdamOdi?
Sarma.
As some try to remember a Mela as a combination of pUrvAngam and uttarAngam,Charukesi
is a combination of SankarAbharanam in the pUrvAngam and TOdi in the uttarAngam.
In the anupallavi of AdamOdi,the beginning words are "Todu needa Neeve" and the swaram for that is "PA da Ni da Ni Sa",which is an UttarAngam phrase.YuvatUri garu observe that Thyagaraja emphasized the raga Todi,as the phrase is in UttarAngam.
In the charanam,"sankarAnsudai" has the swaram "Ga Ri Ri Ma Ga Ga Ri Sa Sa",which is a PUrvAngam phrase,representing Sankarabharanam.
Does anyone know of any other krithis where similar logic is applicable,or is it just a coincidence in AdamOdi?
Sarma.
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vasanthakokilam
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