I think this has not been discussed before...
My question is this: how does one identify the parent ragam for a janya ragam for ragams that donot use all seven notes? For example, mohanam could as well be a janyam of harikamboji as shankarabaranam or even kalyani for that matter, since the notes M and N are absent in mohanam...In such cases, how does one identify the janka ragam?
-bhaktha
Janya raga identification
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vageyakara
- Posts: 602
- Joined: 01 Dec 2006, 20:24
DEAR BHAKTHAJI,
Since Mohanam, altogather. has flat notes,it should either be a derivative of Harikambhoji, or Kalyani.or most preferably harikambhoji.The reason behind this is due to the fact, that the nishadham of kalyaani has (kaarvai)oscillation touching the chatursruti Daivatham or vise versa.Since according to one school of thought -"Sangeetha Raaga Kadal by Mahadevan " the janaka raagam has also been mentioned as Kalyaani and is presently in vogue.Whereas in Harikambhoji only Ri has karvai touching at the most, the area of GAANDHARAA
and hence does not affect the flavour of Mohanam.In Harikambhidi All swarams (EVEN if taken as Flat ones the Raagam does not get affected due to any kaarvai whatsoever.
In this connection I would LIKE TO point out that some of our esteemed yester -year vidwans, whether inadvertantly or deliberately used to deploy even PRATHIMADHYAMA AND NISHADAM in to Mohanam.
I can cite , withought naming them for obvious reasons, umpteen number of instances wherein , most of our yester -year vidwans adamently adopted this style of rendering raga alaapana,while handling SPURITHAM sangatis.The irony of it all is that it has come to stay under the safe escapade of PAATAANTHARAM. !!!!!!!
RAMARAJ
Since Mohanam, altogather. has flat notes,it should either be a derivative of Harikambhoji, or Kalyani.or most preferably harikambhoji.The reason behind this is due to the fact, that the nishadham of kalyaani has (kaarvai)oscillation touching the chatursruti Daivatham or vise versa.Since according to one school of thought -"Sangeetha Raaga Kadal by Mahadevan " the janaka raagam has also been mentioned as Kalyaani and is presently in vogue.Whereas in Harikambhoji only Ri has karvai touching at the most, the area of GAANDHARAA
and hence does not affect the flavour of Mohanam.In Harikambhidi All swarams (EVEN if taken as Flat ones the Raagam does not get affected due to any kaarvai whatsoever.
In this connection I would LIKE TO point out that some of our esteemed yester -year vidwans, whether inadvertantly or deliberately used to deploy even PRATHIMADHYAMA AND NISHADAM in to Mohanam.
I can cite , withought naming them for obvious reasons, umpteen number of instances wherein , most of our yester -year vidwans adamently adopted this style of rendering raga alaapana,while handling SPURITHAM sangatis.The irony of it all is that it has come to stay under the safe escapade of PAATAANTHARAM. !!!!!!!
RAMARAJ
Last edited by vageyakara on 08 Jun 2007, 18:55, edited 1 time in total.
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vageyakara
- Posts: 602
- Joined: 01 Dec 2006, 20:24
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vageyakara
- Posts: 602
- Joined: 01 Dec 2006, 20:24
Hallo Bhakthaji and Mr.Arunk,
Identification of a Janaka raga does not come under any set thumb-rule pattern .We have to first of all be conservant with the characteristics of a chosen JANYA raga i.e whether the swaras (of Janya ragas) are succeptible to oscilations(kaarvais)and try to match them with the similarities of other swarams (as defined in the Janaka Raagams ) of course , using the mELaraga tables and now the process of elimination can be applied to sort out the exact swarams defined in the Janya Ragams and finally fix the chosen Janaka Raagam.This would gradualy, by experience,facilatate an aspirant to find out the Janaka Ragam.
All important (suggested)rule is to be proficient in handling the desired Janya Ragam first.
In my view , we need not ,get unduly worried about the process of discovering the Janaka Ragam while rendering /nay!! taming a particular Janya ragam.Our primary concentration should be focussed only on the chosen Ragam alone and not
on the RISHIMOOLAM.!!!As Mr. Arunk rightly pointed out, it is pretty subjective and need not be subjected to mind bogling efforts at all
Ramaraj
Identification of a Janaka raga does not come under any set thumb-rule pattern .We have to first of all be conservant with the characteristics of a chosen JANYA raga i.e whether the swaras (of Janya ragas) are succeptible to oscilations(kaarvais)and try to match them with the similarities of other swarams (as defined in the Janaka Raagams ) of course , using the mELaraga tables and now the process of elimination can be applied to sort out the exact swarams defined in the Janya Ragams and finally fix the chosen Janaka Raagam.This would gradualy, by experience,facilatate an aspirant to find out the Janaka Ragam.
All important (suggested)rule is to be proficient in handling the desired Janya Ragam first.
In my view , we need not ,get unduly worried about the process of discovering the Janaka Ragam while rendering /nay!! taming a particular Janya ragam.Our primary concentration should be focussed only on the chosen Ragam alone and not
on the RISHIMOOLAM.!!!As Mr. Arunk rightly pointed out, it is pretty subjective and need not be subjected to mind bogling efforts at all
Ramaraj
Last edited by vageyakara on 08 Jun 2007, 20:52, edited 1 time in total.
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uday_shankar
- Posts: 1472
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:37
Even without being a scholar on the evolutionary history of Indian ragas, I can say the following with confidence:
1. Ragas evolved through centuries through a very complex process.
2. All ragas are not created equal. At one extreme you have ragas like Sahana which are all character (aka bhava); notating them almost seems blasphemous. At the other end you could have a melakartha raga like S-R3-G3-M2-P-D3-N3 (I think it’s called rasikapriya) which is just a collection of notes; a great musician could temporarily imbue it with some character (bhava) but a single musician cannot compensate for the lack of a musical evolutionary process through centuries. Therefore, at the end of the day, rasikapriya (or whatever it’s called) will still remain a collection of notes.
3. Ragas DID NOT evolve from melakarthas. I would speculate that 90% of ragas with character (bhava) evolved well before the melakartha scheme was introduced.
4. There might be a few good, or at least tolerable, sampoorna ragas that sprang from the mela scheme…nasikabhushani ? (or does this predate the mela scheme, I don’t know)
5. There might be a few more good janya ragas that evolved from the creation of the melakartha scheme. I can think of some of the Harikamboji and Kharaharapriya janya ragas used by Thiagaraja. I suspect he created many of them.
6. Occasionally a great raga is with character is created spontaneously by a great composer. Chintamani! To my credit (;-)), before I ever heard chintamani, I had independently though that it would be nice to have a raga that combined some elements of Bhairavi and Shanmukhapriya. The raga came as a most pleasant surprise a long time ago.
7. Therefore, most attempts to assign janyahood is retrofitting and meaningless. Only a musically ignorant person would assign any importance to the following jokes (the number of "ha’s" indicate the extent of funniness):
a. Bhairavi is a janya raga of natabhairavi (ha, ha, ha, ha, ha)
b. Sahana is a janya raga (ha, ha, ha, ha, ha)
c. PurviKalyani/Gamakakriya are janya ragas of Gamanashrama (ha, ha, ha)
d. Begada is a janya raga of…..Shanka-Hari (ha)
1. Ragas evolved through centuries through a very complex process.
2. All ragas are not created equal. At one extreme you have ragas like Sahana which are all character (aka bhava); notating them almost seems blasphemous. At the other end you could have a melakartha raga like S-R3-G3-M2-P-D3-N3 (I think it’s called rasikapriya) which is just a collection of notes; a great musician could temporarily imbue it with some character (bhava) but a single musician cannot compensate for the lack of a musical evolutionary process through centuries. Therefore, at the end of the day, rasikapriya (or whatever it’s called) will still remain a collection of notes.
3. Ragas DID NOT evolve from melakarthas. I would speculate that 90% of ragas with character (bhava) evolved well before the melakartha scheme was introduced.
4. There might be a few good, or at least tolerable, sampoorna ragas that sprang from the mela scheme…nasikabhushani ? (or does this predate the mela scheme, I don’t know)
5. There might be a few more good janya ragas that evolved from the creation of the melakartha scheme. I can think of some of the Harikamboji and Kharaharapriya janya ragas used by Thiagaraja. I suspect he created many of them.
6. Occasionally a great raga is with character is created spontaneously by a great composer. Chintamani! To my credit (;-)), before I ever heard chintamani, I had independently though that it would be nice to have a raga that combined some elements of Bhairavi and Shanmukhapriya. The raga came as a most pleasant surprise a long time ago.
7. Therefore, most attempts to assign janyahood is retrofitting and meaningless. Only a musically ignorant person would assign any importance to the following jokes (the number of "ha’s" indicate the extent of funniness):
a. Bhairavi is a janya raga of natabhairavi (ha, ha, ha, ha, ha)
b. Sahana is a janya raga (ha, ha, ha, ha, ha)
c. PurviKalyani/Gamakakriya are janya ragas of Gamanashrama (ha, ha, ha)
d. Begada is a janya raga of…..Shanka-Hari (ha)
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uday_shankar
- Posts: 1472
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:37
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uday_shankar
- Posts: 1472
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:37
bhakta
There is no need for confusion.
Everything has good aspects and bad aspects.
In my opinion (and there may be other, more well thought out opinions) the melakartha scheme creates endless debates about musically inconsequential things and sometimes harms music (example, vaggeyakara's speculation that people sang mohanam in a particular way, with traces of M2 and N3, to show the kalyani janya).
On the other hand, there may have been a few pleasant consequences also, such as the introduction of new ragas. Fair enough ?
In general, vaggeyakara's advise should be followed of trying to understand a raga musically. Working out janya ragas may be undertaken strictly for intellectual pleasure.
There is no need for confusion.
Everything has good aspects and bad aspects.
In my opinion (and there may be other, more well thought out opinions) the melakartha scheme creates endless debates about musically inconsequential things and sometimes harms music (example, vaggeyakara's speculation that people sang mohanam in a particular way, with traces of M2 and N3, to show the kalyani janya).
On the other hand, there may have been a few pleasant consequences also, such as the introduction of new ragas. Fair enough ?
In general, vaggeyakara's advise should be followed of trying to understand a raga musically. Working out janya ragas may be undertaken strictly for intellectual pleasure.
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ramakriya
- Posts: 1877
- Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 02:05
Here, I would like to add that humans (along with all plants and animals) lived on the earth long before Carl Linnaeus called them Homo SapiensUday_Shankar wrote:3. Ragas DID NOT evolve from melakarthas. I would speculate that 90% of ragas with character (bhava) evolved well before the melakartha scheme was introduced.
-Ramakriya
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ramakriya
- Posts: 1877
- Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 02:05
That is true, but most of these rAgas generally have to depend on few Tyagarajas kritis for survival. Think of kalAnidhi or chAyAnATa - How often we come across a shlOka or a dEvaranAma tuned in these rAgas ? Such an effort can be done, but would look quite contrived.bhaktha wrote:At the one end, u say the concept of janyam is flawed but at the other end, u seem to agree that quite a number of ragams seem to have evolved from k.h.priya or h.kamboji. Your post has confused me further. Can u please clarify?
-bhaktha
That is because of the limitation of such rAgas - No doubt Tyagaraja (or other composers) have done a very good job of composing in those. But they probably do not have much more to offer than what is already there.
-Ramakriya