Is sahithya necessary for bhava in music?

sarojram18 · Post by **sarojram18** » 22 Mar 2007, 21:40

Direct experience of rasa, that is, rasanubhava, does not depend on Sahithya alone as it is commonly misunderstood. Under this assumption some clamour for the songs in the language that is understood, for instance to sing Tamil songs in Tamil nadu etc. Their contention is that only if you understand the words you can feel the bhava that is underlain in it. But this is not at all the experience of rasikas all over the globe. There are instances where the foreigners were moved to tears by the delineation of the raga alone. This has happened in the experience of the eminent musicians like Madurai TNSeshagopalan. It was also related by him that when he tours round regions other than Tamilnadu, rasikas request him to sing krthis in languages they do not understand, in fact, they know only one or two words of Thyagarajakrthi or the songs of Bharathiar etc. and there were instances when non-tamil rasikas appreciated tamil padigams amd pasurams without understanding the meaning.
The reason for this is not far to seek. When a raga is elaborated by a master-musician one gets lost in the ecstasy of music and often does not even pause to think of the name of the raga until the person sitting next asks for it! This is an example to show that rasnubhava does not need words.
On the other hand the words however expressive will not create bhava unless it is set to music and rendered well. An uninspired singer can even kill the bhava of the sahithya by singing it wrong or in a flat manner.
So bhava of the sahithya can manifest only when coloured with raga and embellished with the skill of the musician.After all language is the vehicle of thought or emotion and if that is experienced directly there is no need for words.
(reproduced from my n blog in word press.com)

jhnlasik · Post by **jhnlasik** » 22 Mar 2007, 22:17

sarojaram18
OK. everything sounds good because you are a diehard fan of TNS. However, I can not agree
with this quote "There are instances where the foreigners were moved to tears by the delineation of the raga alone.
This has happened in the experience of the eminent musicians like Madurai TNSeshagopalan"

Foreign rasikas moved to tears after listening to TNS!! It could have been for a different reason.
Example- his "off sruti" kambodhi? forced the rasikas to feel pitty for him?? Only certain
artists were capable of bringing tears and they are all dead and gone. Listening to Ustad Amir Khan brought tears
to late S.Balachandar.

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 22 Mar 2007, 22:25

We really can't prove any of these unless we probe the brains of rasikas when an artist sings a sublime raga and mangles the sahitya. I think the technology is there. Should be an interesting research project! I'm willing to put my hand up to run some simulations and analysis provided someone can fund the project. More importantly we need some brave and honest volunteers!

ninjathegreat · Post by **ninjathegreat** » 22 Mar 2007, 23:32

sarojaram18

It rather the rule than the exception that most people enjoy music they don't understand!!! The idea of the rAgam is to instill the rasa in the listener. The ragam alone does not play the role. We can appreciate the music with just a ragam alone. rAgam is the framework of the rasa; sAhityam gives the aesthetic structure to it. They are interdependent. Even in a rAgam tAnam pallavi, we need a pallavi to make sense of the emotions cast by the rAgam and the tAnam.

Disclaimer: This is my opinion!!

Cheers
ninja

sarojram18 · Post by **sarojram18** » 25 Mar 2007, 12:25

To appreciate anything and experience the bliss needs an open mind free from prejudices. I mentioned my experience and what I heard from others which is proved to be authentic and I don't have to submit the proof to every doubting thomas. I said clearly 'eminent musicians , like TNS and did not say the eminent musician TNS,' for the member to take objection. Moreover it is a pity that the member has paid attention only to those few lines quoting TNS to the exclusion of all other facts mentioned. Nothing can be established by arguments and the joy born out of music or devotion or a thing of beauty is subjective and it s god's gift to see beauty where it is explicit as well as where it is underlain.Above all it is most uncharitable and insensitive to make such a comment about a musician widely acclaimed to be eminent. One may enter into raptures about music of another musician and no one can deny that experience and decry it. Prejudiced mind can never see the truth. Just by my citing an instance if the member has become enraged it only shows his attitudewhich need not be universal.Neither do I claim that my opinion is universal. I have heard all the stalwarts mentioned by the member in my 70 years of life time and I don't deny that they were great. But to cling to the past and miss the present is not a balanced attitude.Perhaps I should not have mentioned the name of TNS according to the gita sloka 'idham thE nAthapaskAya nAbhakthAya kadhAchana;na chASuSrooshavE vAchyam na cha mAm yO abhayasooyathi.'

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 25 Mar 2007, 12:51

sarojram18, getting back to the main point of the thread, you have made a profound statement:

"After all language is the vehicle of thought or emotion and if that is experienced directly there is no need for words."

That is worth thinking about. The corollary is 'When it is not possible to convey thoughts or emotions directly through music, words do help'. I am correlating your statement with another one I heard before about encouraging people to sing 'If you can talk, you can teach yourself to sing..it is a matter of limiting the sounds you make to well defined ones'. That is of course a lot simpler said than done but it does point to the basic principle that 'music, at its core, is another vehicle to express ideas and emotions'.

Personally, I can enjoy music without really tuning to what the music is trying to communicate. If there are words, and if I choose to pay attention to it, then the experience is quite different. If I understand the lyrics, it adds yet another dimension.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 25 Mar 2007, 13:25

Much of the world's great music has no words.

Yet neither the musicians nor the listeners are cold, unfeeling fish.

People listen to folk music from other countries; they listen to opera in French, German, Italian, etc without being natives of those countries or necessarily understanding the words.

Words are not at all necessary for music to be full of feeling.

But that does not mean that they are entirely redundant, or carry no feeling. As vasanthakokilam says, they add another dimension.

One may live without ever hearing them --- but one can visit a gallery and see all the oil paintings only, without looking at water-colour.

For music that does have, and is composed for, words, it would be interesting to compare the performances of two, otherwise top-notch, musicians --- one with a thorough understanding of the lyrics, and one with none whatsoever!

But I don't imagine there will ever be an [perfect] example of the latter in carnatic music.

sarojram18 · Post by **sarojram18** » 25 Mar 2007, 14:19

I completely agree with Vasanthakokilam and Nick14 that sahithya is complementary and adds to the rasanubhava without any doubt.My point is that you cannot understand the sahithya in all cases when they are for instance in other languages and that does not hamper the enjoyment of music.In fact most of the listeners do not understand sanskrit or telugu but it has not prevented them from enjoying the krthis of the trinity. When for instance great maestros like TNRajaratnam Pillai were playing one can go to ecstasy without sahithya even if you do not recognise the song being played, sometimes even not recognising the raga! Yehudi Menuhin was appreciated by all for his music only.Most of the North Indian music does not contain much sahithya and the music of Ravishankar or Chaurasia or even Jasraj, does not depend upon sahithya for being appreciated.This is what I meant by saying that sahithya is not mandatory in enjoying music but when it is there it embellishes the music like the ornaments on the Lord ,who is beautiful without them.

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 25 Mar 2007, 14:53

While I agree with the general import of what you are saying, it depends on what you are looking for as a rasika. If you are going for the music, then Sahitya might play a secondary role. But, there are quite a few who might go mainly for the Sahitya and then this logic of "Music knows no language" runs into a problem. Would you accept if someone sings Thodi with English lyrics? Each of us has different expectations and that's why I say it's all in the mind of the rasika. Even the artist plays a lesser role in this process. There is no doubt that music can be appreciated without Sahityam. Similarly, Sahityam could also be appreciated without music. It all depends on which side of the wall you are on! Then again, I do not support the politicians as they never attend concerts and they would do well to clean up the tamizh in the films and TV channels they own.

rasam · Post by **rasam** » 25 Mar 2007, 15:08

Just thought I'd mention this:

My favorite aspects of a concert are the varnam, alapana and neraval. In a varnam, the sahitya is not emphasized and often unintelligible in the Akaram. In a raga alapana, clearly the sahitya plays no role. In neraval again, especially the second speed, the emphasis is on the improvisation and not the sahiya.

I find that even when I understand the sahitya (tamil and a little bit of telegu) it is boring and repetitive, almost always in praise of some Lord with the same standard phrases. Anyone who has learnt 10 Tyagaraja krithis and has read the RAmAyanA can come up with lyrics for a new one - its tuning it to a raga without plagiarizing from existing compositions and making the sangatis novel that requires skill. People who interrpret lyrics and philosophize about it might as well read poetry: I dont think they even need the music.

Religion is only a vehicle for self-improvement. If the sahitya helps a singer sing with more feeling and a [religious] rasika experience more joy, then amen to that.

sarojram18 · Post by **sarojram18** » 25 Mar 2007, 22:25

Well said rasam! The very word sahithya means association. It is only with association of music the sahithya shines.Even when the sahithya means lyric alone as it is often used in literature, it can be appreciated only when the reader is infused with the rasa, sentiment required to appreciate it. But if the same words are set to music the rasa is created even without understanding the words fully. So sahithya is necessary but not mandatory. But there is an element of truth in what sbala says too. 90 percent of the listeners come only to hear the singer sing the songs they are familiar with and get bored if the songs are unfamiliar like the composition of an unknown author even if the musician delineates raga wonderfully and reels out magnificent svaras. It is true that it depends on the expectation of the individual rasika. That is why the concerts of carnatic music is a mixture of all these aspects unlike North Indian music as our rasikas are used to sambar, rasam , koottu porial etc not to mention pickle!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 25 Mar 2007, 23:27

I find that even when I understand the sahitya (tamil and a little bit of telegu) it is boring and repetitive, almost always in praise of some Lord with the same standard phrases. Anyone who has learnt 10 Tyagaraja krithis and has read the RAmAyanA can come up with lyrics for a new one

Rasam, this is what I was afraid of when I skew to the 'sahitya is secondary' side. I disagree 100% with what you wrote above, which by the way is tangential to the thread topic, you do not have to trash Tyagaraja to address the bhava and sahitya relationship.

Without sounding patronizing, let me speculate that as you bite into CM more and more, your stand that 'Tyagaraja's lyrics are no big deal' is likely to change.

rrao13 · Post by **rrao13** » 26 Mar 2007, 00:42

The statement on Shri Thyagaraja sahitya is very surprising and disturbing. It is tantamount to saying that by reading couple of plays of Shakespeare, one can write like him. On an empirical note, the world has not seen any compositions after Shri Thyagaraja that are anywhere near his achievement. Same is true of Shakespeare.

To appreciate the lyrics of great composers such as Thyagaraja and Purandara Dasa one has to know the language and appreciate their adroit usage of sahitya. If you listen closely to some of Thyagaraja compositions you can actually visualize the setting in which he composed. For example, I see in my mind a devout group of Haridasas going to Shri Thyagaja's house like in a Nagara Sankirtana, when I listen to the krithi - Haridasulu vedale. I see Shri Thyagaraja sitting in the Darbar of Lord Shri Rama and mesmerizing the crowd with his krithi - Sogasuga mridanga taalamu. I also feel humbled by the humility of Shri Thyagarajs in this krithi. Similarly I see the postman arrive and deliver a letter from God in the krithi - Kaagada bandhide - Him giving instructions to His son on how to lead a proper life. There are so many Haridasa compositions in Kannada where the lyrical beauty is astounding. Shri Jagannatha Vithala's krithi - Daasoham - captures the essentials of God/Gita in just a few charanams. Shri Vadiraja (Hayavadana) compositions have awesome sahitya and some of them are not just in praise of God - they depict the beauty with poetry (eg: Kudire bandide, Raajabeedi yolage ninda etc.)

For me Karnatik Music without a good level of sahitya is like eating Payasa without sugar. Is it not sufficient for all to admit and accept that Raaga, Sahitya, Taala etc., go together most of the time. May be some krithis are heavy in Raaga, some in sahitya, some hava a balance. Why do we even need to debate about individual components? It is the whole that makes it great. It is what the Systems theory says - the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. This is true of Karnatik Music and Computer Engineering. As a crude analogy, If Raaga is the CPU, then the peripherals are Sahitya, Taala etc. With just the Cental Processor you can do nothing. You get the power of whole computer only when it has everything else such as a printer, keyboard, screen/VDU....

Well, I am beginning to digress and make silly comparisons...so it is time to stop. Thank God that He has provided me the ability to appreciate sahitya with the raaga. Sincere Pranams to all.

rasam · Post by **rasam** » 26 Mar 2007, 03:35

VK, contrary to your misguided interpretation, I was never trashing Tyagaraja. His musical ability and contribution to the krithi-format is unquestionable. What I meant is that most of his krithis (especially the short krithis) have very little lyrical substance and are often repetitive (based on a standard set of emotions/moods he displays toward his favorite deity, Rama). This does not mean these krithis are inferior, in fact, the music more than compensates for this, so much so that a modern concert is full of his compositions. My stand that his krithi structure and lyrical format is easily reproduceable is validated by the scores of composers like Patnam and Poochi etc. who followed him and specialized in short madhyama kala krithis.

There are definitely compositions of Tyagaraja that have deep philosophical meaning. I was merely pointing out that people who are so inclined can always analyze them to no end but these discussions will always be subjective and can stand independent of the music. These compositions (and analyses) dont need music to vindicate them, nor will a concert be short-changed if these compositions weren't sung.

Of course, not all of Tyagaraja's krithis are in the above category ... If you're as prolific a composer as he was, you simply cannot make every krithi count, which is why his musical rather than lyrical contribution is mind boggling.

A good musician can always bring out the rasa of a raga irrespective of sahitya. In that respect, sahitya is definitely secondary and should never be considered a necessary ingredient. Ultimately a CM concert is about music: people might go to for melodic value, mathematical intricacies, sahitya beauty etc. depending on personal preferences. That doesn't make sahitya an essential ingredient even if it might help the singer sing with more feeling and the rasika enjoy her evening a little more.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 26 Mar 2007, 04:52

Rasam: I think you and I are saying the same thing about what you said. I said you said 'Thyagraraja's lyrics are no big deal', You mention "What I meant is that most of his krithis (especially the short krithis) have very little lyrical substance". Just to be sure I did not extend what you said to the musical aspects of his krithis. Anyway, we can move beyond that.

I am actually the wrong person to be talking about the importance of lyrics since I am just getting into that phase and I do not know how far it will go. Given my own little peak into the lyrics which is quite patchy, in the true missionary zeal

, I only wish you give yourself an opportunity to enjoy the overall lyrics+music experience

Regarding many of T's short krithis whose lyrics may seem commonplace, here is an example from my own experience.

1. koniyADEDu nAyeDa daya velaku - kOkiladhwani . I have known this song for quite a long time with absolutely no idea about the lyrics except for the first word to identify the song. I mostly listened to instrumental versions of it. It is quite an enjoyable song and I listened to it just for the musical dynamics.

2. Later I heard the vocal version of it. The words were still a blur since I was not paying attention deeply. After a few listens, it dawned on me that the song has a different feel to it if I paid attention to the words even without understanding the meaning. And I did not know the meaning of the song for a very long time after that. But somehow the words, where they fall with respect to the thala and the flow of the words with the music all added a tremendous extra dimension. The listening experience is quite different from instrumental version.

3. Later on I made an effort to understand the meaning. At first glance, if you just go by the gist, it may fall into the same category that you have described. But a word for word meaning to understand the context reveals a much deeper substance. Now listening to the song with some knowledge of the words + meaning along with music adds the third dimension which is quite exciting. I think here is where the synergy argument that rrao has mentioned is rightly placed. You can examine the lyrics as a poem, you can listen to the song on an instument but putting them together creates an effect that is bigger than the sum of the first two.

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 26 Mar 2007, 10:44

The only place where Sahitya or lyric can be secondary to music is in the mind of the listener. Taken in absolute terms, they are siblings. However, each rasika might decide to give more importance to one aspect. Just because concert goers look for music does not prove anything. It's just the times we are living in..The same is true in films as well. You get more applause for Rahman than Vairamuthu..But, to say one is secondary to the other in absolute terms doesn't seem to be right.

ninjathegreat · Post by **ninjathegreat** » 26 Mar 2007, 11:23

To see where sahityam was indeed a revelation to me:The krithi sObillu sapthaswara. How wonderful this jagamohini krithi sounds! what a charming elaboration and music! What what does it all mean? What was so wonderful about it? That's when I stumbled on the meaning in Shivkumar's site. "O Mind! Praise the divine forms of the seven musical notes which glow in the navel, heart, neck, tongue and nose of the human body. Which shine in the four Vedas and in the sublime Gayathri Mantra as its essence. Which sparkle in the hearts of the celestials, of worthy Bhusuras and of Tyagaraja." That's when the entire krithi, why it's based on jaganmohini, made sense to me. How else can we interpret the emotions of a song? What's in the lyrics, if we cannot feel it's emotion? What is the difference between a poet and a bard?

Cheers
Ninja

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 26 Mar 2007, 13:01

This thread suffers from the handicap of too many generalisations.

CM is such a magnificent concoction of many elements , I cannot see the need to prise out out Sahitya from the scheme of things just because "X "is able to move a group of "Y" to tears.

As I savour my Moms cooking which is such a great blend of God Given material and Human refinement , where is the question of how the laddu would have tasted if the Flour was not used or not given importance as compared to the syrup.

Anyone who is interested and involved in the whole process END to END cannot help being struck by the beauty of CM in its entirety and conclude that the artists representation on the stage (however great he may be) can only be an element of the Experience amd not the WHOLE EXPERIENCE.

It is for this reason alone I come back home from some concerts where the artist was not at his best , still very satisfied simply because there was something more to it than the rasa the artist tried to infuse.

Try hearing some CM artists sing Hindustani and One cannot be struck by the hopelessness of the exercise.These so called rasa anubahvas(keeping the alapanas out of discussion here) are possible simply because there is such a magnificent track laid out in terms of the composition , allowing the artist the advantage of straying into those creative areas.

and as far as the clamour to hear in a specific language is concerned, I feel it is not related to this issue at all.

kaumaaram · Post by **kaumaaram** » 26 Mar 2007, 13:24

coolkarni wrote:This thread suffers from the handicap of too many generalisations.

CM is such a magnificent concoction of many elements , I cannot see the need to prise out out Sahitya from the scheme of things just because "X "is able to move a group of "Y" to tears.

As I savour my Moms cooking which is such a great blend of God Given material and Human refinement , where is the question of how the laddu would have tasted if the Flour was not used or not given importance as compared to the syrup.

Anyone who is interested and involved in the whole process END to END cannot help being struck by the beauty of CM in its entirety and conclude that the artists representation on the stage (however great he may be) can only be an element of the Experience amd not the WHOLE EXPERIENCE.

I concur with you. For instance, if you listen to SAMAVEDA, though you may not appreciate the content part of it, you feel elated when you just listen to the musical touch. Therefore, dividing CM into fragments would not serve the purpose. Importance lies in the wholeness of it.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 26 Mar 2007, 16:17

Great common sense from Coolkarni.

Although I still feel the conversation is valid as an exercise. By debating the value of one part we may come to better appreciate that part, and/or appreciate the whole.

In my above post, where I commented that much of the world's great music does not have words, I missed something big ---- that is to say that no words does not necessarily mean no meaning! Occasionally, in Western music, this may be annotated along with the score, or implied in the title (giving at least strong clues), if not, then many a musician will study hard to find how he can be true to the composer's intention in performing a musical piece.

knandago2001 · Post by **knandago2001** » 26 Mar 2007, 18:25

I agree that conversation is still valid as an exercise. Let us consider a case where only the anupallavi of Odi baaraiyya (Bhairavi) and Modi jese velaraa (Khamas) are sung in succession. The relevant lyrics are as follows:

"nodi matadi muddadi santosha gudi
haadi pogaluveno paramapurusha hariye" (Odi baaraiyya)

"ne paadi sarasa maadi gudi muddadi nannu" (Modi jese velara?)

I'm convinced that Bhairavi and Khamas provide the necessary tonal contrast. The lyrics are in kannada and telugu, respectively. Indeed there is rythmic variation with regard to the eduppu in Adi tala. It would perhaps be OK to improvise these lines a la Hindustani khayal or RTP. However, the kriti (Odi baaraiyya) and javali (Modi jese velara) differ in their interpretation by virtue of the contextual juxtaposition of the lyrics and the emotions that they evoke. This explains why the "whole" may not just be the "sum of its parts". For the record, lyrics such as "Mahima teliya tarama" and "Gaana lola karunaala vaala" taken from the pallavis of different compositions have been performed as RTPs.

The tillana emphasises melody and rythm while articulation of the lyrics is very important in the rendering of a sloka / ugabhoga. CM does give us infinite variety to savour and cherish. As to the question whether language and music co-evolved or came before one another, I tried reciting "Om" with and without intonation - the difference was palpable.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 26 Mar 2007, 18:41

knandago2001 wrote:For the record, lyrics such as "Mahima teliya tarama" and "Gaana lola karunaala vaala" taken from the pallavis of different compositions have been performed as RTPs.

For the record, the pallavis are actually older than the kritis mentioned. These pallavi lines were so popular that some composers picked them up and used them as pallavis for their compositions.

. As to the question whether language and music co-evolved or came before one another, I tried reciting "Om" with and without intonation - the difference was palpable.

There is a theory that music evolved earlier than language.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 27 Mar 2007, 09:49

By debating the value of one part we may come to better appreciate that part, and/or appreciate the whole.

http://www.badongo.com/file/2580434
Nick
Here is a small 4 minute track for you - Fateh Ali sings raag Bhoopali.
I presume you do not understand Hindi .Can you just try and write about your feelings about what the singer is trying to say.
Of course this is open to anyone else who does not know Hindi.

I will get back here after reading your comments and we can then apprecaite the need for the words.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 27 Mar 2007, 09:59

Now it is going to be interesting. Nick, you lead.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 27 Mar 2007, 11:40

I think we've had this debate before but I'll repeat my stand for what it is worth...for me the primary attraction in Indian music is, well, the music and the rhtythm. I will go a little further and say that any form of serious music ought to give primacy to raga and tala rather than sahithya and I believe that is the case with Indian music.

However, things are never in black and white - I doubt I would be able to appreciate the Hallelujah Chorus if it is retuned as a krithi in Bhairavi! Moreover, alliteration and other forms of prosody can enhance the appeal of a krithi even if one does not understand the meaning completely.

My expectations from lyrics are simple - as long as they keep me in a comfort zone of familiar sounding words- Nannu Brova, Enduku, Ninnu Kori etc. - (whose meaning I have no idea about) admixed with addresses to sundry Gods and Godesses, I have no complaints! For anything more profound, I'd rather turn to poetry, as someone pointed out...

I am not even sure my musical experience would be enhanced if I did make an effort to grasp the lyrics - they could, if they are really good. On the other hand, mediocre lyrical content could also be a distraction from its musical merits.

I do look forward to Nick's response though!

rasam · Post by **rasam** » 27 Mar 2007, 14:14

The only place where Sahitya or lyric can be secondary to music is in the mind of the listener. Taken in absolute terms, they are siblings. However, each rasika might decide to give more importance to one aspect. Just because concert goers look for music does not prove anything. It's just the times we are living in..The same is true in films as well. You get more applause for Rahman than Vairamuthu..But, to say one is secondary to the other in absolute terms doesn't seem to be right.

How can you define any artform in absolute terms? All our discussions here are inherently subjective and to that effect the role of sahitya is definitely defined by what an audience is looking for in a classical music concert.

When I say sahitya is secondary, I mean that music can still be very good without it, especially for people who are not interested in the lyrics and focus on the musical aspects. In other words sahitya is not essential. A concert without sahitya can be really good (eg. an instrumental concert), but will a concert with great lyrics (by 'great', I mean appealing to someone) be good if sung by a mediocre artist with unappealing music?

Sahitya is secondary to the extent that it has the possibility of enhancing the overall experience for the listener depending on her tastes. For example, a religious person might be moved by devotional content, a romantic may be inspired by a love-theme etc. But nobody is going to be at a music concert where the music is not good.

Note that 'good' music itself is subjective like you pointed out: some people prefer TNS, others Rahman ... but lets get back to the question on this thread title:

"Is sahitya necessary for bhava in music?"

I think not.

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 27 Mar 2007, 14:25

Apart from the lyrical contents,sahithya also provides a shape to the raga. This is the shape that we relate to when we hear a song. Whether we hear vocal music without understanding the meaning or to instrumental music we donot relate to the words but to the structure or shape provided to the raga by the sahitya. The greatness of our composers is that the very structure of the song can give a bhavam to the song.

Understanding the meaning of the sahitya of course defintely improves the experience.

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 27 Mar 2007, 21:38

Rasam,
I'm not disputing the answer to the question but the question itself assumes that music sits on a higher pedestal than sahitya. I could ask the same question "Is music necessary for bhava in sahitya?" and whatever you said now holds good. So, my point is they are both equals. If your brain is wired up to appreciate music, you will think sahityam is just an accessory and vice versa..I can also ask if raga is necessary for bhava in music. There are so many film songs that make you emotional but might not fit into any of the ragas..These questions cannot be answered as it's your opinion against mine..We can keep arguing like Bengalis but we are not going to come up with any earth-shattering discovery.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 27 Mar 2007, 23:05

I was just listening to an interview with Sri PS Narayanaswami in WorldSpace Radio. According to him, earlier very few people attended concerts and most of them could really appreciate the musical aspects of concert. However, now-a-days, though more and more people are attending concerts, only 10 out 100 people can appreciate musical aspects.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 28 Mar 2007, 22:28

Oh dear... I've always found it hard to listen in a 'laboratory' situation.

There is nothing worse than being told, for instance, prior to a hearing a recording or a concert that one has to listen to this, because it is the best! Or whatever! Music has, in those circumstances, so often left me cold, only to discover, at some later time, when free of expectation, the magic in something.

Guys... when I have the house to myself... at the weekend...

(and if I can get over not being much fond of quwali (another word I can't spell)... I'm afraid I gave away my NFAK CDs to someone who appreciated them more than I did)

By the way, I love lyrics. In western music I have always preferred those singers whose words I can hear and most disliked those who slur, scream or wine into the mic. I also particularly enjoy the clever combination of words, rhythm and music.

So there's a lot I miss in this music where I don't understand a word...

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 29 Mar 2007, 10:12

vgvindan wrote:According to him, earlier very few people attended concerts and most of them could really appreciate the musical aspects of concert. However, now-a-days, though more and more people are attending concerts, only 10 out 100 people can appreciate musical aspects.

Did he refer to any specific musical aspects that the previous generations could appreciate better? Or are we giving more credence to this statement just because it came from Shri PSN.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 29 Mar 2007, 19:54

The exact Tamil words (or words to that effect) used by PSN are - 'sangeedattaip patti terinjavA' - (those who know about music).

This topic about sAhitya vs music (as if there is really a 'versus') has been discussed in this website in many forms and none is wiser.

My intention of bringing to notice the impression of a seasoned artist like PSN is that the musicians of standing do indeed appreciate what the composition of the audience is and what would be better in their (musicians') interest and also that of audience.

I would like to draw the attention of viewers to the tyAgarAja kRti 'sogasugA mRdanga tAlamucE' - rAga Sri Ranjani.

He asks Lord rAma - 'ninu sokka sEyu dhIruDevvaDO' - who is that person who can make you enamoured?

We can reframe 'ninnu' as 'rasikuni' - 'who is that person who can make the rasikA enamoured?'

He further goes on to say about sAhitya -

nigama SirOrthamu galgina
nija vAkkulatO svara SuddhamutO

"Whoever is that resolute person to make You nicely enamoured by songs, containing true words of the meanings of upaniSads, in pure svara?"

'svara suddha', has a qualifier - 'svara' is not something abstract, it consists of 'words' (vAkkulu) which are 'true' (nija) conveying the 'meaning' (arthamu) of 'upanishads' (nigam SirO).

He further goes on as to what a composition should convey -

yati viSrama sadbhakti
virati drAkShA rasa nava rasa
yuta kRticE bhajiyincE
yukti tyAgarAjuni taramA SrI rAma (sogasu)

"Is the method of chanting Your names, as kRtis consisting of nava rasa which brings elation as if drinking wine, reflecting true devotion and indifference to Worldly objects, along with rythmic pattern of svaras and words (or pause in the prosody) and pausing at right places, within the capabiliy of this tyAgarAja?"

Those who think that 'bhAva' in music is abstract, better take a second look at this kRti. 'bhAva' is expressed through 'nava rasa'. In CM, not all rasAs are equally covered, the most dominant rasa is 'kAruNya'.

I am reminded of a scene from Tamil film 'tiruvaruTselvar' wherein the dancer explains to the King (who is enamoured by her) by displaying a number of sweets with different colours. She says "all these sweets are made of sugar only" - the implication is that 'be satisfied with you wife'.

Only those practitioners of music who have dedicated themselves to music can understand the sweetness of pure svara.

If we are to accept the statement of PSN that majority of the audience are not knowledgeable in music, then they are not able to taste the sweetness of pure svara. They need the sweets made of sugar in different colours - nava rasa. And, nava rasa is not possible to be conveyed through pure svara - even lullaby has words - does the babe understand those words?

I am reminded of an instance in my life. My father used to recite 'lalitA sahasranamam' daily in the morning. I never learnt the sahasra nama while he was alive. But after he passed away during my middle ages, I wanted to continue the tradition and started learning from book all by myself. It was a surprise that almost the whole sahasra nAma was already known to me - I just had to revise - in a month I could recite the same fluently. Words convey very deep impression in human mind. It is a known fact that an 'audio-visual' presentation is better retained than a simple aural one.

In my personal opinion, no human voice can beat vInA in conveying the nuances of pure music.

I am reminded of the dAsara kRti 'kELanO hari tALanO'

tambUri mudalAda akhila vAdya kaLiddu
kombu koLalu dvani svara gaLitu
tumbur nAradaru gAna kELuva hari
nambalAra I Dambakada kUgADa

Sri tyAgarAja calls nArada to be 'vEda janita vara vINA vAdana tatvajna' ('Sri nArada nAda' - rAga kAnaDa); what nArada sings is - not pure music but -

nArAyaNa nAmamulanu
pArAyaNam(o)nariJcucu
(nArada muni veDalina - pantu varALi)

PS : Pardon me if there are errors in the dAsara kRti because I am reproducing from a Tamil version.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 29 Mar 2007, 20:11

vgvindan wrote:'svara suddha', has a qualifier - 'svara' is not something abstract, it consists of 'words' (vAkkulu) which are 'true' (nija) conveying the 'meaning' (arthamu) of 'upanishads' (nigam SirO).

Without in anyway detracting from what you want to convey, swara here refers to musical notes- svaraSuddha and Sruti Suddha are common terms in music. In this contect it does not refer to vAk. And also "nija" here menas "Your". That is what it means in sanskrit while it has come to mean true/truth in all SI languages. So here nijavAkkulu means "Your words" (Lord's). What is implied is that the true vAggEyakAra/singer is only a vehicle and it is His words that flow as songs.

tambUri mudalAda akhila vAdya kaLiddu
kombu koLalu dvani svara gaLitu
tumbur nAradaru gAna kELuva hari
nambalAra I Dambakada kUgADa

PS : Pardon me if there are errors in the dAsara kRti because I am reproducing from a Tamil version.

Corrected version

"tambUri modalAda akhila vAdyagaLiddu
kombu koLalu dhvani swaragaLiddu
tumburu nAradara gAna kELuva hari
nambalAra I Dambhakada kUgATa"

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 29 Mar 2007, 20:41

What is implied is that the true vAggEyakAra/singer is only a vehicle and it is His words that flow as songs.

Truly humble words coming from a recognised vAggEyakkAra. May tyAgarAja bless us all with such humility.

nIvu lEka tyAgarAju nI guNamulan(e)Tu pADunu
(nArada gAna lOla - rAga aThANa)

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 29 Mar 2007, 20:45

Thanks VGV.

knandago2001 · Post by **knandago2001** » 29 Mar 2007, 21:47

Equally striking is the anupallavi of "Dasarathe" (Todi) in which Tyagaraja refers to Rama as "Rasika siromani"