Should the stage banish the aged?

meena · Post by **meena** » 25 Feb 2007, 05:18

Deleted

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 25 Feb 2007, 13:02

Something of a non-article, really.

Having grabbed the reader's attention with reports of semi-nudity on stage, she goes on, essentially, to answer her own question.

Her very many words could have been more usefully paraphrased: "No."

Which was obvious from the start, really...

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 25 Feb 2007, 13:06

In which case the word count of the article would be 1 which the editor would have frowned upon

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 25 Feb 2007, 14:07

To answer the question posed in the topic, my answer would be NO. Atleast in music, the elders bring a leisurely style without any gimmicks. I'm sure it must be the case in dance as well.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 25 Feb 2007, 14:30

VK,
I wake up with nightmares about my deadline. The wordy article the editor asked for, exhorting, 'a new angle, don't forget', haunts me. I have nothing to say--wish he had asked for a filler instead a page long essay--sigh. Others would have jumped up for joy for an assignment like this, and here I am, trying to compose something about decaying people, dead wood, not about singers, but dancers! Desperate, huh?
Let me put on some rap and type on...
Yeah, I finally did it, and here it is, and as VK puts it, the word count is 1, but hey, I did it, the editor seems happy, and what the heck are you people going on about?

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 25 Feb 2007, 20:50

I have a different take: When the writer talks about kabuki dancers and others, I wonder how they look and perform compared to their younger colleagues. I am all for Birju Maharaj performing even today, and when Smt. Samjukta (Panigrahi) danced, her age became irrelevant. Age should not matter, but since dance is a visual medium, if the dancers are able to keep up their technical skills and do not start taking liberties with technique because 'they are senior and they can', then, age should just be a number, and the 'older' you are, the better performer you are. But if one, either because of physical constraints or disability, is not able to fulfil all the demands of the dance, then, it should be time to hang up 'the bells' as they say.

chalanata · Post by **chalanata** » 25 Feb 2007, 20:56

why? even today chitra visweswaran and padma subramaniam dance to their full heart! it is only the students who do not have many occasions to perform.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 25 Feb 2007, 21:16

Ravi,
I should have put my post in quotes! I feel that the write up was still trying to find a subject matter! Being in the autumn of my life makes me feel a bit ticked off when the author beats about the bush--a wee bit condescending too?. We seniors don't need people making concessions about us! Of course, even a hypothetical question whether the aged have to be banished is insensitive. As you and chalanata point out, there is so much of energy and productivity among senior artistes and they bring a lot of experience and knowledge to the young...

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 25 Feb 2007, 22:02

[quote]â€œThere is no denying the problems that accompany ageing. But what has been universally denied is the potential. The ultimate expression of potential is creativity.â€

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 25 Feb 2007, 22:20

Merci, my friend

Hope you can convince Rajesh, though! Yours is an ode to old age, his could be, well, ask him!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 25 Feb 2007, 22:45

'old age' as a cause of death is deprecated by the ICD in death certificates. They rather prefer statements such as 'unspecified natural causes'. Perhaps the next WHO meet should consider including a code for '(shock from) banishment from stage'

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 26 Feb 2007, 06:14

Kji,
SURE: Intellectual pursuits should have no age bar, but a physical art form like dancing needs energy and technique - and if those are adhered to without heed to age, who cares. But once age becomes an excuse for poor technique and and 'experience' is substituted in its stead, then age ceases to be a number, and becomes a liability. 'Experience' will help interprettation and abhinaya, but not the nritta, which is still a major component of the dance form.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 26 Feb 2007, 11:13

Ravi I can see your point only if Arts (why Dance alone ) were to be considered something similar to Cricket , where our stars simply refuse to retire â€¦.

But then when Somerset Maugham was asked the same question he replied ..
â€œWe do not Write because we want to.
We write .Because we have to.â€

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 26 Feb 2007, 13:17

Cool,
The second one is better than the first! Age mellows, in most cases. Call me prejudiced if you wish...

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 26 Feb 2007, 17:28

Age mellows, in most cases

Arasi
My Late Dad used to brush us away ,when we pointed to his wrinkles on the face - and say
Sukkallo adu , Sukhaddu
(not wrinkles(Sukku) ,them.they are a result of Sukha ,Man).

No wonder they say , that wrinkles are only proof that Smiles existed there, once upon a time.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 26 Feb 2007, 18:38

What a contrast in the days when Parliament has to enact a legislation to take care of aged! In China, there is a practice of leaving the very aged people in the jungles at the mercy of nature. Probably, that is a more humane way of dealing with very aged!

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 26 Feb 2007, 22:40

In China, there is a practice of leaving the very aged people in the jungles at the mercy of nature. Probably, that is a more humane way of dealing with very aged!

vgv- surely you are joking?!

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 26 Feb 2007, 22:47

jayaram,
I am not joking about what is happening or happened in China - it is a fact. I have seen this in a TV Show.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 26 Feb 2007, 23:05

great contrast coolji! The youth one has more vocal flourishes, the aged one - more serene. The tonal quality of the voice is also different. For some reason, the aged one seems to exude a stronger sense of of assuredness, confidence of what is most fitting for the rAg, mood etc., that grows with age and experience. I am with arasi - the second one left a stronger impression on me.

But i agree with ravi that dance poses an entirely different set of challenge. One can perhaps stick to padams and i think age and experience can deliver those more effectively can youth can. But nritta is a tough one - from what litttle i know, it is a very very essential part of dance and cannot be toned down too much in every performance a veteran gives. So the challenge is to come up with a nice adjustment of that component in line with physical bounds - i can only imagine that this is a very tough challenge.

BTW, i thought the article was trying to offer food for thought (through the writer's thougt processes) for people "who think age should be banished", as to why it shouldnt. So i sense it as directed to people who summarily dismiss old veterans as "should give it up as they are not helping any".

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 27 Feb 2007, 00:29

Bravo coolkarni!
For that spirited defence of the 'crabbed age' (as Shakespeare calls). Thanks for that personal quip from your dad (which will come very handy for some of us !). Thanks again for the Bhimsen. He indeed was capable of singing like 70+ even when he was 20+ since those fine tremors are not age related but his inborn talent!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 27 Feb 2007, 00:31

I am not questioning the intent of the writer either. Just that I don't like the way it is written--especially the title. Is that what prompted vgv to refer to the elderly Hansels and Gretels in China, I wonder...

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 27 Feb 2007, 00:40

The Guru told the shiShya (while teaching her to dance)
'kaalathtin koDumai en kaalkaLai kazhaRRiyathu"
(The cruel time has robbed me of my legs)
The shiShya responded
"kaalaththin vaNmai enakku um kaalkaLai thanthathu"
(It is the gift of time that I got your feet)

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 27 Feb 2007, 01:05

arasi - yep both the title and the style of content are ambiguous and misleading - and as nick hinted perhaps a bit of intentional sensationalism to make the headline grab you.

Arun

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 27 Feb 2007, 01:58

coolkarni wrote:[
No wonder they say , that wrinkles are only proof that Smiles existed there, once upon a time.

Someone told me that the chinese women don't smile too much because it leads to wrinkles on face ...

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 27 Feb 2007, 02:15

If that is true about the chinese woman, that is indeed very sad. I will watch if this is true of my chinese women colleagues.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 27 Feb 2007, 07:12

arunk
I agree with you and Ravi , totally.Was just trying to give another perspective.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 27 Feb 2007, 07:42

Phew! You had me going there for a bit, Kji!
if dancers continue to be visual delights with impeccable technique and expression, like Dame Margot (Fonteyn) was in her 40's and late 50's, then I am sure people will surely exclaim 'age? what's that?' - but if one reaches a stage where 'tAn ADATTAlum sadai ADum' occurs in a literal sense, then it is time to call it a day!
Prof. Chandrasekhar is one such example of the former - his technique is superb, with his araimanDi and footwork putting young dancers to shame, and his experience and contagious enjoyment of the music and involvement with the presentation making the experience more than just a mere visual treat, but a spiritual journey! I am sure he is not one of the dancers the sabha secretary quoted in the article was refering to.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 27 Feb 2007, 08:41

You had me going there for a bit, Kji!

Take Inspiration from Pandit Nehru.He used to write anonymous letters opposing his own views in order to fuel a debate(when no one else responded )

and also allow for the fact that I may be older to you by atleast 10 years !!

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 27 Feb 2007, 09:43

it is a fact. I have seen this in a TV Show.

Am not sure if this is a recent trend.
In his book "The Importance of Living" (Jaico Publsihing House-Rs 295), Lin Yutang makes a case for exactly the opposite.Though we must allow for the fact that this book was first published in 1937.
There is a beautiful chapter on page 207 Titled "On Growing Old Gracefully" which starts by saying

"The Chinese Family system , as I conceive it, is largely an arrangement of particular provision for the young and the Old..."
"... The feeling of Chivalry found clear expression in Mencius in some such saying as -The people with grey hair should not be seen carrying burdens on the street-...

...The greatest regret a Chinese Gentleman could have was the eternally lost opportunity of serving his old parents with medicine and soup on their deatbed , or not to be present when they died..
In China the first question a person asks the other on an official call , after asking the name and surname is,What is your glorious age ?....

Some of the duties of the junior at Home as prescribed by T'u Hsishih and incorporated in a book of moral instruction very popular as a text in the old schools.
In the Summer months ,one should , while attending to his parents . stand by their side and fan them, to drive away...
In Winter he should see that the bed quilts are warm enough and the stove fire hot enough ....
He should also see if there are holes in the doors so that there may be no draught...
A child above ten should get up before his parents and go to their bed and ask if they have had a good sleep....

It is a long list and the author ends up by asking
Who therefore would'nt want to be an old man or an old father or grandfather in China ?

So something must have happened since 1937, if the TV Story was to reflect an overall reality in China today.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 27 Feb 2007, 09:43

I can't claim that! You young thing, Cool! Wrinkles become me, I would like to think!

Ravi,
Yes, most of the fifty plus dancers should concentrate on imparting their knowledge to their sishyAs and forget about performing. A few Norma Desmonds on the stage today! There are exceptions of course, like Vyjayanthi--who did a solo program of thiruppAvai this season, arai maDi et al, as you wrote earlier. Yes, agility and liveliness which the youth possess, is vital for dance...