sangitha kalanidhi 2024

[grsastrigal]

Madras HC restrained MA to give the SK award to TMK

[sam]

Justice has prevailed.
..
.The Madras High Court, on Tuesday, November 19, restrained The Hindu from granting the ‘Sangita Kalanidhi MS Subbulakshmi Award’ in her name.

.Justice G Jayachandran also held that instituting an award in her name has gone against her wish and opined that the award should not be continued to be given in her name.

The court was hearing a plea moved by Subbulakshmi’s grandson Shrinivasan challenging an award conferred in her name.

The court, however, said that the award can be granted to Krishna but it should not be in Subbulakshmi’s name

. “If any person is really having reverence and regard to MS Subbulakshmi, after knowing her desire and mandate, should not continue to give the award in her name,”

the court said.

The judge also dismissed a petition filed by the Music Academy seeking to reject Shrinivasan’s plea.

It held that Shrinivasan, who was the beneficiary of her will, had the locus to move the petition..

[mohan]

https://www.thenewsminute.com/tamil-nad ... tm-krishna

[rupavathi]

Madras HC restrained MA to give the SK award to TMK

This is misleading. The court has stayed only the MS Subbulakshmi award sponsored by The Hindu and given by default to every yrs SK awardee. The SK award itself hasn't been restrained or stayed by the court.

[sam]

Leading musicians like Ra'-Gaa and Priya sisters, who have courageously and publicly condemned the Music Academy for selecting TMK for SK award , can file a case in HC , requesting a stay on the award, citing numerous instances of TMK vilifying the MA . All the members of the MA selection committee can be made respondents.
It may succeed as TMK is fuelling social unrest along caste lines .

[rajeshnat]

Way back in 2013 i just recollected a post that i made then about adding any vidwan/vidushi name to the award. I won the case for a different reasoning. I wrote than "One cannot reference say sangeetha kalanidhi ms subhalakshmi award was given to semmangudi in 1947."Check my 5 liner than
https://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopi ... 84#p245584

Now i want to put a case why award TMK for one main reason. He did not perform in music academy since 2015 that is nine full years , so why give it to some one who has not even sang a sa pa sa for all these 9 full years . That is the commitee disrespecting their own institution .

I also wanted to know who are the two living sangeetha kalanidhis who nominated TMK for the award (this is one unwritten rule right)

Cienu,
I liked what you did , congratulations . There is sincerity in your approach just like how few musicians who were bold and forthcoming with their views

[sam]

Please correct me if I am wrong.
Sangita Kalaanidhi award is different from MSSubbulakshmi award.
It is just a convention of the last few decades, that the SK gets the additional MSS award also. It is just a convention. The MSS award by The Hindu can be given to any artiste of their choice.

SK award is given by MA.

MSS award and cash prize is given by The Hindu.
.
Half the battle has been won with respect to the name of TheHindu award.
The main battle to be yet won is to make the MA selection committee to declare individually, the rationale of their choice, cknvincingly, as to why, they chose someone with such anti MA agenda.

..

[Nick H]

The main battle to be yet won is to make the MA selection committee to declare individually, the rationale of their choice, cknvincingly, as to why, they chose someone with such anti MA agenda.

No. And the court has said so: the MA can do what it likes with its awards. It is MA's business. Not yours, not mine, not the court's.

Please read the authoritative reports, and some of the posts on this site, pointing out that it is only the name of MSS that is not to be used. This is based on MSS's wishes, and may apply to all and any existing and future awards from any organisation*

Perspective: On January 2 2025, this will, part from one more picture in the MA lobby, be history. We can forget all about it and get on with discussing the next year's award!



PS
#Iamnotalawyer legal quibble...

How can such a wish be binding in law? Leaving aside the current issue, I, as an armchair non-lawyer, can not see how it can be. Wills are to do with assets. The law will supervise their distribution. Wishes are not assets and no wishes are legally binding. Perhaps they should be respected, but that is not a matter for law

I suspect that the judgement could be overthrown. (on-issue, I think that appeal would be a waste of the the MA's time and money and it should just remove the name)

If anyone wants to answer this point, please leave aside the people involved, the personalities, the emotions attached to them. I am totally raising a legal, arm-chair-pedant, point of interest only

[sam]

The MA is a cultural icon.
A perusal of the great names in the committee, makes one wonrer, if the decision about the person to be awarded, was taken, after following due procedure.

The MA is a registered association. It is governed by law as in
Societies Registration Act
..
The court can ask for record of proceedings of any organization, when public sentiment especially of a very small minority is hurt . The keyword is stay.

[ramamatya]

PS
#Iamnotalawyer legal quibble...

How can such a wish be binding in law? Leaving aside the current issue, I, as an armchair non-lawyer, can not see how it can be. Wills are to do with assets. The law will supervise their distribution. Wishes are not assets and no wishes are legally binding. Perhaps they should be respected, but that is not a matter for law

I suspect that the judgement could be overthrown. (on-issue, I think that appeal would be a waste of the the MA's time and money and it should just remove the name)

If anyone wants to answer this point, please leave aside the people involved, the personalities, the emotions attached to them. I am totally raising a legal, arm-chair-pedant, point of interest only

Ignorant yet arrogant.

This is not an answer to your silly question but rather a lament on how degraded our forums have gotten down to:

Have you read her will? Has anybody read her will? How can anyone throw questions at a legacy as MS when they don't know what is written in her will? With words such as wishes used in the news media, you are asking questions blindly. The forumites, as usual, will not defend their pride icons, but follow the outsiders in deriding themselves. Sad.

MS name, fame, and legacy are intangible assets. Probably you haven't heard of intangible assets. And, stop insulting MS with your puerile questions.

[sam]

It was not a mere wish but stated in a will.
Incidentally, it may be fit and proper to allude to a legal precedent. It is well known that the legendary Senior Advocate H M Seervai, author of the iconic Constitutional Law of India, wrote in his W...

Read more at: https://organiser.org/2024/10/16/260710 ... l-dispute/

[sam]

A simple search suggests that the Kotturpuram area was proposed to be named as MS Subbulakshmi Nagar during Madam Jayalalitha’s regime. It was not liked or accepted by MS Amma during her life time. S...
Ironically, this is reported in a Blogpost by V Sriram, who incidentally, is one of the Secretaries of Music Academy and party to designating the MS Subbulakshmi award to TMK. How times and values cha...

Read more at: https://organiser.org/2024/10/16/260710 ... l-dispute/


Read more at: https://organiser.org/2024/10/16/260710 ... l-dispute/

[Nick H]

Ignorant yet arrogant.
This is not an answer to your silly question but rather a lament on how degraded our forums have gotten down to:

Thank you for your gratuitous insults. Just like the "good old days" of rasikas.org. Never mind: I got older, and won't answer in kind like I used to .

Intangible assets. Maybe you have a good point there. You could have put it politely.... But all gone in the wind. soon forgotten.

I'm still interested in the non-personal legal aspects. Because law interests me. Always did. Might have made a career of it, but in my UK youth both law and medicine required Latin, at which I was useless.

We will see what happens: the way seems clear for MA to drop the attribution and go ahead with the award. I am yet to read Sam's links. EDIT: Thanks Sam, have now read.

[sam]

@Nick
Sir, you are 90 % right about the legal definition of will. There are famous exceptions like that of Nehru which I am quoting below.

Quote
When I die, I should like my body to be cremated. If I die in a foreign country, my body should be cremated there and my ashes sent to Allahabad.
.
A small handful of these ashes should be thrown into the Ganga [Ganges] and the major portion of them disposed of in the manner indicated below. No part of these ashes should be retained or preserved.
.
am proud of the great inheritance that has been, and is, ours, and I am conscious that I too, like all of us, am a link in that unbroken chain which goes back to the dawn of history in the immemorial past of India.
.
That chain I would not break, for I treasure it and seek inspiration from it. And as witness of this desire of mine and as my last homage to India's cultural inheritance, I am making this request that a handful of my ashes be thrown into the Ganga at Allahabad to be carried to the great ocean that washes India's shore.

The major portion of my ashes should, however, be disposed of otherwise. I want these to be carried high up into the air in an airplane and scattered from that height over the fields where the peasants of India toil, so that they might mingle with the dust and soil of India and become an indistinguishable part of India.
Quote ends.
..
And Nehru was a bar-at-law.
The will was carried out exactly.
..

I submit that a will may also deal with wishes. as well as assets.

The present issue is not about cash award or assets.. one lakh in 2004 even was not much. In 2024, it is almost nothing.

It is about brazen and hurtful gesture
Of MA ,similar to anti-semitism.
.
Kindly dont get hurt .
.

[Nick H]

Thank you sam. Beautiful words from Nehru.

Don't worry, I will not be hurt! I am not even trying to be right, just exploring the area.

I am mostly keeping quiet about TMK and the award. My opinion doesn't matter, but I do respect TMK's music and the students he has taught. But Srinivasan (cienu on this forum) is a personal friend, and I very much respect his feelings.

Allow me to go this far: The MA cannot have been unaware of the repercussions from the community. In the face of that, some may call the award "brave." Others may have very different words for it.

The Music Season, of which the MA is the entirely-self-appointed leader, should be a time for unity and celebration and not division.

Perhaps unlike the Music Academy, I don't want to offend anyone!

[ramamatya]

Intangible assets. Maybe you have a good point there. You could have put it politely....

Like the politeness with which you did your mudslinging on our musical legend?

You reap what you sow.

[Nick H]

That never happened, nor will it ever happen. You may have misunderstood me. As I said, I don't want to offend anyone. I'm sorry if you were offended: I did not mean to.

But I must look after my own name: I have never said anything against MSS, her art, her life or her memory. And I never will. Please note!

On the other hand, we have both been here on rasikas.org, and if you were to say that I have spoken against TMK, well, yes, I have! In the past. So the balance is actually on the other foot.

That's my "side" of it, and I have nothing more to say, You are welcome to have the last word: in my foolish youth I always wanted to win on the internet, now I am old and I don't bother any more. But I'd rather get on with people, and that certainly includes you, a long-time fellow forum member and respected rasika.

(Endless italics is some mistake!)

[rajeshnat]

All said i love the quote of Nehru, some thing that is nice to my liking about Nehru which is so rare "The major portion of my ashes should, however, be disposed of otherwise. I want these to be carried high up into the air in an airplane and scattered from that height over the fields where the peasants of India toil, so that they might mingle with the dust and soil of India and become an indistinguishable part of India.".

Contrast to how much of land is taken as memorial as and when a leader moves on that too in marina beach.

[anandganesh4]

Since there are two awards given by the Academy during the season with almost similar sounding names, there is a lot of confusion amongst many people. Therefore I wish to clarify

One Award which was instituted in 2005 is ‘Sangita Kalanidhi M S Subbulakshmi Award’ which is presented usually on Dec 15th. This award was created to honour the memory of M S Subbulakshmi and sponsored by the Hindu newspaper along with Rs 1 lakh cash prize.

The 2nd award is the Sangita Kalanidhi award which is conferred on the final day which is Jan 1st and this has been the established practice for almost 80 years.

Sangita Kalanidhi is the foremost award of the academy whereas Sangita Kalanidhi M S Subbulakshmi Award is a ‘mirror award’ meaning that whomsoever is selected for the Sangita Kalanidhi automatically qualifies for the award in MSS’s name.

The prayer by V Srinivasan - cienu was concerning only the mirror award, namely Sangita Kalanidhi M S Subbulakshmi Award, requesting that it ought not to be awarded to T M Krishna and this relief was granted by the Madras High Court.

The Jugde further said that as far as the main Sangita Kalanidhi award is concerned that can be given as is the usual practice. Infact there was no prayer from Cienu for any injunction restraining the Academy from honouring T M Krishna with the primary award which is Sangita Kalanidhi and also the Rs 1 lakh cash prize which goes with the award is MSS name.

With regards to the wishes of M S Subbulakshmi in her will, a point to be noted is that this is a probated will. The Judge in his orders has stated that as per the law as long as her wish is not illegal or against public policy or legally unenforceable, that wish cannot be violated as the testator has a right to issue a prohibitory mandate.

[Nick H]

Thank you.

I had mostly understood, but still you have made it clearer

[rajeshnat]

AnandGanesh4,
Thank you for your crisp clarification . Way back in 2013 , i wish this was clarified .Thank You.

Cienu,
More respect to you post AnandGanesh4 clarification.

All said the brand of Music Academy for Carnatic music is very tall order for any one sabha / institution to overtake . They have a main media vehicle THe Hindu under the armour. Also they conducting meticulously year on year sadas and honoring are not even done by any or even Federation of Sabhas. 15 plus years I once talked with NGS Krishnaswamy to insitute some thing as big as SK , he was not that keen. SKGS has become a quasi dance sabha. Academy is light years ahead wth the top 3 sabhas in madras season.

So only question remains unanswered who is the two living SK who nominated TM Krishna for SK that too when TMK did not even sing sa pa sa in academy.?

[sam]

Any wellknown person or organization can file a suit, just to investigate if the rules were strictly followed in that particular meeting, if atall, there was one, which selected the SK for
2024.
.
A sample can be found at
https://indiankanoon.org/doc/182381029/

[girish_a]

The petty minded communists are appealing the court's decision. They want to violate her will.

https://swarajyamag.com/culture/why-is- ... shmis-wish

[Nick H]

Can't read, as it is behind a "sign-in" wall.

But I do not understand why MA is wasting its time, money, resources, on this. Are they so stubborn that they cannot accept a decent compromise?

Foolish. Especially considering they have to get it sorted in a couple of weeks.

[sam]

The appeal court can and should reject urgent hearing and postpone final verdict to , say, month of April 2025... Evidently, 'left liberal lunatics' have no sense of shame. Maanamuledhaa?
The accompanists can refuse to join the party. It is the minimum that is expected from them. All their pious words are untrue then?

[Nick H]

Yes, the court should refuse the appeal or post it for April... 2027

(I suppose court can't refuse it? But they can make it impractical or give it short shrift. (whatever shrift is))

[girish_a]

The Left’s Shameful Attempt To Steal MS Subbulakshmi’s Legacy:
https://www.news18.com/opinion/opinion- ... 27911.html

[sam]

@Nick
Sir, ì have not seen any news item that TheHindu and MA have appealed in Apex court. Can you please share it?..
The court can refuse to have emergency hearing. Numerous such instances...

[Nick H]

The Left’s Shameful Attempt

This politicification of the issue is absurd. What has it do with right and left!

This article is ridiculously political. And goes so far to assume that TNK was behind his own award! Well, perhaps that is not impossible: SK has quite a history, as has often been discussed on this forum. Didn't one veteran tell the MA that he would hang himself in the foyer if they did not give it to him?

It beats every known axiom of credulity to believe that Music Academy and TM Krishna were unaware of these clauses in MS Subbulakshmi’s will.

Don't throw bricks at me, or misunderstand my intentions, I wasn't here at the time, I am only asking...

Does it? Was her will publicised at the time? Nobody seems to have said anything like this about about the institution of the award, or the other awards that bear her name. How many buildings or auditoriums are names after her? I can only think if one: is it to be assumed that they purposely went against her wishes? It is fairly recently built. Perhaps a younger generation does not know but an older generation would have done.

I don't know. I'm just asking.

I suspect that The Hindu family and the Music Academy family (currently same) would have known.

[sam]

https://swarajyamag.com/culture/why-is- ... shmis-wish.

It has filed an appeal against the verdict to not present a cash award in MS' name, even though there is no bar against presenting the Sangita Kalanidhi title.

.

[girish_a]

The Left’s Shameful Attempt

This politicification of the issue is absurd. What has it do with right and left!
...
This article is ridiculously political.
...
I don't know. I'm just asking.

It IS political (not the article which is just stating the truth). There is no question about it. If you're looking at happenings across just a small sliver of time, say the last 15 years or from whenever TMK started his activism, it won't appear political, but to really get the full picture, you have to go back more than a century, when Marxism was first propounded.

HISTORY

Marxism, as propounded by Marx and Engels, posits a world in which there is, and has always historically been, a constant class struggle between oppressors and the oppressed - that is a basic tenet of Marxism. Nearly everything is looked at from that lens. That is the worldview it promotes. If you understand this, you will understand why TMK and others like him speak and act like they do.

Just look up TMK's utterances and writings. In every one of them, you will find this theme. It is inescapable. I don't know if TMK has himself studied Marxism, but it is undeniable that he has been influenced by it. Whether that happened directly by a study of Marxism or indirectly through association with those that hold the Marxist worldview, I don't know. Even his article on MS had the same theme. I will not care to elaborate because it is too painful to talk about, but you can look it up.

Marxism provides the theoretical foundation, and communism attempts to achieve those goals (eliminate class struggle, i.e., end the oppression of the oppressed by the oppressors) by establishing a classless and stateless society. As history clearly shows, they tried to achieve this by means of violent revolution.

So what is the end goal? To dismantle the existing order and establish a new one.

However, violent revolution worked in Russia but not everywhere.

CULTURAL MARXISM

That was when the concept of "Cultural Marxism" was born. The people may be oppressed but if they feel a sense of cultural pride, or pride in other aspects of their society, they will ignore their economic and other hardships and will not be roused to violence. So the elite, to control the masses, promote and popularize such things as will hold the oppressed in thrall of their culture.

So how do you dismantle the existing order in a society of oppressors and oppressed that's not motivated to engage in violent revolution? Well, infiltrate those fields! Art, movies, music and dance, theatre, literature, education, religious institutions, media, the bureaucracy etc. Get into those fields and spread your ideology!

In other words, capture the institutions that influence the masses. Therefore, institutional capture is a key strategy of the Marxists.

What do they do once they capture institutional power? They immediately start to dismantle, disfigure and deface beyond recognition the moral, ideological, cultural and other aspects that the institution stood for in the first place. TRUTH IS THE FIRST VICTIM OF MARXIST TAKEOVER.

MARXISM IN INDIA

Just look at the history of communism in India from about 1914. They did try to instigate violent revolution but it fell flat. But they have succeeded greatly in institutional capture. They are in every institution. To this day. They may not have political power but they wield great influence in all the aforementioned fields. Including the media, both printed and electronic.

Nowhere has their influence been more devastating than in the field of history-writing in India. They have successfully buried Indian history to such an extent that every kid remembers the names of illiterate Islamic savages that comnitted unspeakable horrors but knows nothing about our own heritage. And being in total control of education, they are manufacturing soulless zombies by the million who are crawling into the media, the film industry, the judiciary, the police and every pillar of society.

THE HINDU, TMK AND THE SK CONTROVERSY

The Hindu newspaper, as many will tell you, has fallen into the hands of people that subscribe to the Marxist worldview. And in TMK, they have found the perfect accomplice to influence the field of classical music which was hitherto unsullied by Marxist depredations.

Why do you think they want to give an award to someone who had publicly criticised them and had stayed away from that institution? That's because they are united by ideology. And the unity thus created overrides personal pride and such considerations.

Now, why are they doggedly pursuing a matter that the court had decided on? If you understand that they are not merely a newspaper publishing house but are working actively towards political goals, it will be clear. So to say that they are leftists with political goals is not at all absurd. It is not their critics that are politicizing the issue. They are the ones who are pursuing political goals.

A sample of TMK's writings. From his own website. Give this a cursory glance in light of what I just explained.

https://www.tmkrishna.com/articles

OTHER EXAMPLES OF MARXIST DISTORTIONS

Just in case you weren't convinced, here is another thing to ponder on. You know that we have festivals celebrating the victory of Gods over Asuras. Vijaya Dashami, for example, is the festival to mark the victory of the Devi over the Asura. Now, these people have floated the idea that the Goddess was an upper-caste Aryan who came from outside India and Mahishasura was a native and that the fight between them was a class struggle. Rama was Aryan for them, Ravana was a native.

https://www.forwardpress.in/2017/09/bur ... -sedition/

Onam in Kerala, seen through Marxist lens. This individual is a minister:
https://x.com/drthomasisaac/status/1300303932024004608

Marxist online magazine:
https://caravanmagazine.in/vantage/myth ... nam-kerala

CONCLUSION

There is too much history and material regarding Marxists, and it is beyond doubt that the present Music Academy controversy is another war-strategy of the leftists.

[Nick H]

Thank you for your very full answer to my post.

Influenced by Marx? Who has not read his perhaps-most-famous epithet from each according to his ability, to each according to their need and thought it a great and noble ideal? At least, until reds-under-the-bed Americans poisoned the words left, socialist, liberal (and liberal is actually centre, or was until politics moved so far to the right that socialists are more like the conservatives of a generation or two ago). It is a great ideal. Most of us then look at how communism panned out to create no sort of equality, but murderous dictators. It was/is a wonderful idea: it didn't work out.

I don't have any doubt that TMK is political. I think he represents himself as activist as well as musician, author, etc. Absolutely he is political. He has awards for it even, But this award is for his skills as a musician, performer, teacher. Not for his politics. There are one or two SKs that I don't much like: partly from my own personal tastes, and partly because I don't like the attitude that they bring to the stage; there are several musicians whose style I don't consider to be good for music who are almost certainly SKs of the future. (Again, please regard this as just my personal taste, although I have discussed it all with senior vidwans. And again, there is always bias, and of course, I would only be having conversations at all with people whose music I didn't love and respect.)

Reds Under The Bed (the american paranoia about anything which smacks of "left"), a short anecdote:

In 1997, I was employed by the small London office of a huge Japanese commercial insurer. At a management meeting, the Japanese MD asked what would be consequences of a Labour win in the election. Mr Bob, our head local underwriter, a true thatcherite to the bone, launched into a woeful description of economic and social collapse. (He was a very nice person: I have always had friends with whom I politically disagree). The thing was, Labour did win. And none of what the he said actually happened. Don't be too much reds-under-the-bed.

Lets get back closer to music. Over all the years of this forum, and elsewhere, there have been conversations about audience numbers and appreciation of carnatic music. How to increase the numbers? When everyone wants only to hear film songs, how to get them into the concert halls? And the answer is that we won't. The answer is that, not only in India, but all around the world, "classical" music is an elite art form. The only way away from that, perhaps, would be to popularise that. Do you and I want to see that? I don't think so. Even though some of the performers that do are among the future SK-awardees that I mentioned earlier. I don't want to go to their concerts; I don't think that that carnatic music should go in that direction. We may not completely agree about individuals, but I think that you, me and most other forum members will at least find common ground here.

Carnatic music is elite. That is going to be true regardless of its current ownership. Only music-serious people want serious music. I don't think that anybody needs to be worried about that changing.

I appreciate our conversation. But as you say "It IS political." And politics is not allowed on the forum, so we have to accept if the moderators decide not to permit these posts.

[sam]

When everyone wants only to hear film songs, how to get them into the concert halls? And the answer is that we won't. The answer is that, not only in India, but all around the world

How to get them into concert halls?
I think, classical music and appreciation, has got nothing to do with concert attendance.
In the 1930-1960 s, gramaphone records, radio programs , cassettes and in present times, videos, live streaming is taking chaste music to all kinds of music lovers. Even in the West. Even In Germany.
Dear dear Sir, doubtless, you know that in the past two years, teams like Naadhbrungha and VaaK, have uploaded dozens of full concerts by renowned vocalists of the great era..concerts by MVI, ARI, Chembai, Musiri, GNB, SSI, MMI, Alatthoor, Satthoor and a few more , performances in Music Academy, Thamizh isai sangam and Bombay and Bangalore and Trivandrum.
Kindly educate me..
how is listening and appreciating such concerts and perhaps learning too, by repeated listening, is an inferior way of music appreciation?
I have some friends who are dedicated to listening to western classical music through LP records and nowadays in youtube.
Our Grundig Sir,...is he less a rasika?
Definitely not.
.

I

[Nick H]

When everyone wants only to hear film songs, how to get them into the concert halls? And the answer is that we won't. The answer is that, not only in India, but all around the world

Kindly educate me..
how is listening and appreciating such concerts and perhaps learning too, by repeated listening, is an inferior way of music appreciation?
I have some friends who are dedicated to listening to western classical music through LP records and nowadays in youtube.
Our Grundig Sir,...is he less a rasika?
Definitely not.

Good point. Perhaps I should have spoken more generally, not just about live concerts.

[sam]

@Nick
Sir, Thank you..
..
About elitism..
.
We should always try to educate the younger generation and students about finer values like science, literature, fine arfs and social history.

When we reach out to millions, who knows?, a hundred atleat may become experts
. Students in some good american schools are taught western classical music and instrumental music.
Not elective.
Not optional.
.
It might be observed that all over the world, nationalism is growing. It is combined with awareness and passion to preserve national characteristics.,most often intertwined with religion.

After all, every European , Asian, African, Latin American country has its own glorious traditions..

There is a great difference between Internationalism and the woke globalism of californian gang and brussels black rocks.

Every European country resents and rebels against the european parliament.

Religion is still very much the bedrock
Of many nationalities.

Your quote from Marx is very selective.

The Manifesto of 1848, said much more and floundered on the force of religion..perhaps not entirely..a bettter perspective is given in his book on Religion.. Marx on India of 1848, is an illuminating book.

In his hatred of feudalism, he is almost an apologist of imperialism and neo colonialism. German Nationalism?
. Bismark?
..
It was the Republicans ..deeply conservative and religious, who abolished slavery. Not the wokes.
.
Am I wrong in surmising that the finest creations of art, sprang from religion bassd humanism. PIETA.
European church music.
Sufi poetry and music.
Carnatic music.?

.can we really appreciate CM ignoring the contriburiins of Daasar poets, Trinity, Tamil composers?
Is it simply RTP?

Both Hinduism and Catholic religion hold the sanctity of marriage, irrevokable. They rightly glorify and venerate motherhood. But not the wokes. Wokes = LGBT.and Q. This is post 2000 or 1990 Left.
Indian Reds are just super wokes..

Even in 1960, the Frankfurts were infiltrators in red garb.
Lokamaanya Tilak is the inspiratiin for Hindu Nationalists..anti woke.
He was a very great scholar and intrepid patriot and inspiratikn for Dr.Hedgewar. dr was a member of HRSA along with Bismil.
I would like to share the link.
Lokamaanya and Marxism

https://buff3r4.blogspot.com/2024/04/lo ... rxism.html.

.
Dr Hedgewar And The Mission Of The Hindu Rashtra.
https://swarajyamag.com/commentary/dr-h ... du-rashtra

Very illuminating and informative.

Indian wokes are in the same boat as TMK.
..

[sam]

Anti woke Tulasi Hubbard on the Bangladesh Crisis.

https://america1900to2025.blogspot.com/ ... bbard.html

[Nick H]

Speaking very personally, as one whose views of christianity are, to say the least, negative, I have to say that yes, I live with the contradiction of the great art, music, architecture, etc that it fostered.

Life is full of such contradictions, and if I can't resolve them then I just live with them.

Of course, I could quote the other saying of Marx that all of us who have not studied his works (maybe one day) know. At least someone once pointed me to the context in which the religion/opiate thing was written.

Have we strayed too far from the Music Academy and it's 2024 MSS award? Is there any update on this MA appeal?

[sam]

We have not strayed away from the main topic of this thread , for, we have to attack the MA, TMK from genuine national, cultural and humanistic foundation. A sort of appendix to girish Sir.
.enough said I suppose.
Thank you for the gracious admissikn of contradictions.
My understanding of British Labour movement is entirely shaped by what I feel is a great book, from which I realized how religious puritanism and the Bible, played a great role in England. You would have read it.

Coal to NewCastle?

The Making of the English Working Class, by E. P. Thompson.
Someday, I hope that the modern SK would admit that Religion is what gives meaning to their art, craft and life.
It is the soul of CM.
Exemplified by MSS.

That is why all this seeming detour is relevant. An ideological rebuttal of lumpen pseudo marxists!

[shankarank]

https://indianexpress.com/article/opini ... opinion_hp

Humble beginnings of MSS pitted against the Privilege one of Rukmini Devi Arundale! That is from some Prof. in Central University located in "Carnatic Trinity Central" of Thiruvarur. You can see how this psyche of class structure analysis has percolated into every nook and corner including the door steps of the Trinity's birth place. That did produce some politicians didn't it? Trinity and their reminiscences would be old history, but for some continuing temple culture there may be. Not gone there, so don't know.

In fact, one could argue, both got their respective privileges somewhat upgraded further by whom they married.

But then for the Author, Rukmini was privileged at Birth and MSS got her privileges later, post Marriage or something.

They could have blown away their privileges (born with or new found) in N number of things. Instead actually the privileged born one, needs equal appreciation as a fall can be precipitated easily by circumstances.

Rukmini's father was only some Engineer with the British govt. - not a great privilege, not some Maharajah. Just an exposure to Theosophy may have brought some privileged exposure, intellectually may be.

It was a marriage that helped her scale great professional heights, but made her a heavily guarded subject. According to T J S George, “the absence of any kind of records about M S Subbulakshmi’s life and the fortress erected around her by her husband, Tyagaraja Sadasivam,” made the research on her “virtually impossible”. He further said: “Sadasivam controlled all access and all information so tightly that nothing was ever known that Sadasivam did not want known.”

Who is this George guy? ( evanDa ivan?) Just asking! - No - No don't reply or try to educate me!

The author instead should read Sri tyAgarAja himself : "kaTa kaTa nA caritamu karNa kaThOramayya". https://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.c ... -raga.html

That is not some kind of confession or something. He may have said it in exacting bhakti or lack of it what he felt .

But I take it to be a philosophical statement in general. This is a statement to evaluate this concept of biographies ( auto or non auto whatever!) written around. In Indian culture, we lacked some history because we had purANas and kavyas. Seldom art works depicted humans/ royals - Mughal history may be different. Even Ravi Varma down south mostly focused on divinities.

Thyagaraja sang on Rama's story.

Smt. MSS and Rukmini tried to transcend all personal histories ( I consciously avoided "their"), in their approach and deed !

It is their monumental work that should be remembered!

Rukmini deserves a temple for making an effort to get Sangita Kalanidhi for MDR.

Did she try that because he served in her institution? So many people did. Or like any dancer can, she could understand his music is it? Knowing dance endows you the ability to understand MDR music? Oh! no! She knew Tiger's music even, so what is the big deal with this thing? She figured out easily that he is a great musician. Yeah that is right!

That is not some large heartedness or some human favor that we usually think it is. For that you need a worshipful attitude in everything. A devotion, a sense of purpose.

உங்களுக்கெல்லாம் புரியாதுடா!

[sam]

The MA has appealed and hearing is on monday. Let us hope that the existing judgement is confirmed..

The book by George published in 2004 , i think immediately after the passing away of Smt.MSS, is a disgrace. George just a cheap writer.

.in the earlier part of last century, parents used to settle marriage alliance for their daughter even prior to puberty and the bridegroom would preferably a well settled govt officer, aged around 25. So 10 years difference was almost the norm.( in some special cases, nowadays, it is the otherway around!).

.i did not know much about Rukmani Devi Arundale and wiki is giving totally wrong information. She was not daughter of K.A.Nilakanta Sastry, the famous historian. Rukmani Devi's father was an enginner, with the same name.
.
.

[shankarank]

How to increase the numbers? When everyone wants only to hear film songs, how to get them into the concert halls? And the answer is that we won't.

First the assumption that the traditional music is in some competition with film music or songs is fallacious. Film music continuously markets itself with anybody in reach of their media and garners listeners, who otherwise , we don't know what they would have consumed instead.

The answer is that, not only in India, but all around the world, "classical" music is an elite art form. The only way away from that, perhaps, would be to popularise that. Do you and I want to see that? I don't think so. Even though some of the performers that do are among the future SK-awardees that I mentioned earlier. I don't want to go to their concerts; I don't think that that carnatic music should go in that direction.

Carnatic platform itself when it was established, it was with an appeal to the populace only. From day - one since 1900(s) , general population were always part of it. Carnatic spanned many genres of presentation from the theatre, to Harikatha and the new Kutchery platform, already packed kritis and songs. If you look at it from the Oft-claimed "pallavi is the core of the music" perspective, it was already accommodating and heavily so. And down to performers in the 80s and 90s when my gen. started listening, performers "diluted" , depending on what relative measure you use, to appeal to listeners.

By 80s, even capable performers were told to not sing Pallavis. Your (Nick) favorite venue doyen SVK himself asked them not to sing - based on a recent interview. You can see even artistes like TNS many recordings have no Pallavis. They were all forced to adapt.

No other musical system has bent over backwards to entice listeners as much as Carnatic has done - and still keeping some connection to the past. So where is any elitism in all this?

In raga exposition, Rajarathinam had his Petromax light lifter as rasika and MMI had his rickshawvallahs. But then we cannot claim that music was taken to their social settings. These were people who happened to be where the music was and ended up hearing and responding to it. The setting here are the temples!

Bane of any knowledge system is that it gets into being "studied" after a certain point. Palghat Mani Iyer's speech is out there : " Now a days studying music has increased !! I tell them I myself will award them the Certs - but who will listen to the music?". He leaves it there.

Unfortunately that is a necessary bane of any knowledge system that after certain point, studying happens and Pedagogy dictates the system's direction. Even scientific disciplines are no exception. Einstein and Ramanujam were some clerks and not even in Academia, when they made their seminal contributions. Einstein became a pop-culture celebrity. Now he is being studied and no guarantees that the pupils understand .

Pure sciences like Physics suffers from lack of funding and support and lack of student interest. Next major investments , even US scientists say will happen only in China, simply due to human resource required to build the experiments. West may not have the where whithal to get people to tighten screws and do the wiring even on that scale.

Biopic on Ramanujan is a big hit. He is still being studied : https://www.quantamagazine.org/srinivas ... -20241021/. Apparently there is some "Music" in those equations - if you read later paragraphs.

And our beloved departed member Akellaji gave a ton of study material and kids if they study ( no understanding required! - just shut up and do it) , out comes a kutchery musician.

[girish_a]

Predictions on the headlines that will appear in the media in the following days:

1. Musician gets hate from right wing extremists for winning award.
2. Intolerance on display as progressive musician wins award.
3. Award winning musician faces right wing ire.

These headlines will appear not only in Indian media but also foreign ones like NYT, Wapo, BBC, Al Jazeera etc.

And TMK himself will play victim and offer sound bytes to the usual suspects: Wire, Scroll, Deccan Herald, News Laundry, Quint etc.

Oh well, here it is...TMK has spoken to News Laundry.

TM Krishna vs conservatives: The price of challenging privilege in Carnatic music

https://www.newslaundry.com/2024/12/09/ ... atic-music

Just as I described a few days ago, the Marxist template is unmistakable. Look at the headline:

1. Challenging privilege (Class struggle)
2. The price of challenging privilege (Playing victim, weaponizing victimhood)

3. Then the text (feel-good language, code words for Infiltration with the intent to vandalize and remould along Marxist lines - Future of arts. TMK himself has set the example by singing songs on EVR).

TM Krishna has shook the world of Carnatic music, and his work has sparked important conversations about privilege, inclusivity, and the future of arts.

There will be more in the days leading up to the award ceremony as well as after.

[Nick H]

I wish we had not lost our 'Thanks" button.

shankarank --- Thanks.

girish_a --- "reds under the bed" again, eh?

[sam]

Pallavi singing was perhaps the norm before the Trinity.
CM after the Trinity is saahithyam based. Nearly a thousand, all with religious theme.


I think, CM was consciously developed as Hindu devotional classical system, by a hindu saint in vijayanagar empire.
around 1400 AD.
Hindu cultural life was was first endangered by delhi sultanate and slightly later by even worse, the Bahmani kingdom of upper deccan and its five splintered kingdoms like Bijapur, Golkonda, Berar .
These marauders had no roots here.

Classical music for the jihadists was just a pastime...just like dancing.
It was the Persian branch of amir kusru, a mystic, which, resusciated classcal music of Ancient India, and thus was born HM.

Unfortunately, it tended to be court music...pallavi singing type,
If atall, there were lyrics, they were just flattery of the nabobs.
In karnataka,The priests and womenfolk preserved the ancient system.

The Dasar poet singers, revived the ancient system of music.
In Dasar times, in Karnataka, classical music was taken to common people by wandering minstrels.
Latter day, CM composers, solidly built on that spiritual message of the CM of Dasar minstrels.
Spiritual music as CM was brought into Tamil country by Govinda Dikshita.
Just after the destruction of Vijaya Nagar by the hordes.

We do not know about tamil pann. That also should have been temple music only..
It is thus the South that has created and nurtured CM, justly named karnataka music.
..
Take away the compositions of dasar minstrels, the Trinity and annamayya..
What then remains?
.
That is why, it is impossible for even north indians and art 4 art sake secular globalists to really absorb CM.
.
Theosophy wont do.
Jk exposed the huge hoax long back.
Cultural Marxists? Marx was hugely learned and cultured. Engels was a classical western music composer.
..( added ).


.Watch "SANGEETHA GNANAMU - M.S.SUBBULAKSHMI" on YouTube

.https://youtu.be/HzbpPqgetCk?si=ohE720Rs0T7MxBqW
..
Watch "Thyagaraja Kriti-Durmarga Chara-Ranjani-Rupakam-Lalgudi Jayaraman" on YouTube.

https://youtu.be/xlxy0mjJGgk?si=BECVzWokU2t1bd7j

..

.

[sam]

Sangita Kalanidhi row: Madras HC questions if MS Subbulakshmi’s will bars third parties from awarding (in )her name.

https://www.newindianexpress.com/states ... g-her-name..

[Nick H]

"The bench adjourned the case to Wednesday [11th] for further arguments."

The presentation takes place on the MA Season inaugural day? 15th? It's all a bit tight.

[girish_a]

Cultural Marxists? Marx was hugely learned and cultured.

Er...You might want to watch this, at least parts of it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOFIHp6aTuE

(16:47) How Marx lived: disorder and disgust
(18:52) Marx’s nursemaid, to refuse your own child
(23:27) Marx wouldn’t bathe: boils and rage

[girish_a]

girish_a --- "reds under the bed" again, eh?

Considering that they murdered 100 million people, that's a healthy attitude to have.

And in India, they were very much present in West Bengal and Kerala (they're still ruling there). They ran those two states to the ground, as history will testify.

What I said about them is no joke. Here's a sample, albeit from a different field: History. This lady here is a Marxist historian. She's subtly placing the Mahabharata in a post-Buddhist era, specifically post-Ashoka.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyDwgKGp3TM

If that ain't distortion, I don't know what that is. This lady wrote history text books that generations of Indians studied in their schools and still do.

And about Ashoka himself - to this day, kids learn that Ashoka converted to Buddhism after the battle of Kalinga. The violence and blood and gore and human suffering he saw made him convert to Buddhism. The implication being that the violent Hindu king became the pacifist Buddhist. That's the story that everyone knows.

Except, Ashoka had converted to Buddhism 4 years before the war! That's a masterclass in distortion.

And for your amusement - They reject black holes as well.
https://cpim.org/dialectical-materialis ... ack-holes/

TMK is a cultural vandal who will do to Carnatic music what his fellow-cultists did to history (yes, Marxism is a cult). He must be opposed.

And in a democracy, the best way to do that is to boycott him, like the sisters and others have shown.

[Nick H]

TMK is a cultural vandal

I'm curious to know what you think of his students?

[sam]

Marx spent more than a decade as a political refugee in London. He knew more about India than even Indian writers. Indian rightwing openly admires the Nazis.
The best way to counter the cultural hippies is not through disgusting puraanaas. Better to read more about the wars in last century. Bengal famine. Tamilnad famine 1880s. The Great Depression,