Christian sneak attack on Bharatanatyam

[girish_a]

Ran into this recent video which explains attempts by fanatical Christians to infiltrate, appropriate and Christianize Bharatanatyam.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_rjOG64SZk

They have invented Christian Mudras, they are starting to say Bharatanatyam is not confined to any religion (without acknowledging that it was born in Hinduism), they are even finding parallels in their holy book for some of the ideas, concepts and motifs of Bharatanatyam. Recall how Leela Samson removed Kalakshetra's Ganesha logo to replace it with a soulless secular one.

An earlier video gives the history and theological basis for these attacks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aI3PR1Q2V2A&t

Those who are aware of Rajiv Malhotra's work will find this very familiar.

[Nick H]

I bet they won't be as successful as the previous attempt to infiltrate and appropriare bharatnatyam

[sam]

So much of Catholic church practices have a striking resemlance with Hindu temple rituals. ...Even the coronation of British Royalty...though non-catholic.
Prof.Raghavan has mentioned it in his famous introduction to the book ' spiritual heritage of Thyagaraja'.

How about fusion music rendering of carnatic music? Even in a sacred occasion at Thiruvaiyaru?
.
Is Western Classical music non-religious in its origins? .
Ìs the violin of Indian origin?
.
Why we have no problem with Nottuswara Sahithyams?
.
That said, there is an ocean of difference between the Bharatha Natyam ambience and the life of
service of Christian nuns.

It would be great if Indian Church adopted the CM system of ragams and composed prayer songs accordingly.

[arasi]

Vedanayakam Pillai did that eons ago, didn't he?

[sam]

Munsif Vedanayakam Pillai compositions were never explicitly Christian. They were just spiritual, suitable for all theists. After all, he was a contemporary of vadaloor vaLLalaar Raamalinga swamikal...did great work during the great famine.

[arasi]

As I understand it, his compositions lent themselves to anyone who wanted to sing the praise of God. As youngsters at school, we sang his compositions at our assembly every morning. I suppose, given the times, society did not focus on divisions but on unity (the freedom movement brought about the unifying element to the fore). No one made any waves about the origin of the songs--or, that they did not mention any particular deity. The school had all women teachers, some from forward thinking families. A number of them were young widows from child marriages, but had parents who wanted their daughters to go back to school, and then train as teachers or doctors.

The assembly hall with a gallery, had no pictures of any gods. We all stood up once we heard the school bell, and belted out the song which was chosen for that day. I remember that two of my friends were Theresa (a catholic), and then Irene, who was a protestant. Not that it came up in any arguments but was known in the conversations as to where their churches were located. Among teachers were christians too. What I am trying to convey is this: many girls came from orthodox hindu families as well, but neither the instructors nor the students seemed to mind the differences. It had to do with the times, I suppose.

So, though I knew from his name that Vedanayakam Pillai was christian in his faith, it did not seem to register. We were happy singing God's songs at prayer, and they were very appealing too! sathiya mArgamtanilE kUDu! sajjana sangathuDan uRaVADu! nityAnandathai nADu, para nirmala sugamtanai thEDu, manamE! we belted out happily.

From my uncle VVS who knew him, I was aware he was a christian and wrote hymns in tamizh. He even tuned two of his songs which his sister-in-law Rukmini Sundararajan recorded on HMV: nIyE thuNai paranE! tunbam nIngiDa aruL, varanE in vAchaspati and pagaivanukkaruLvAi in bilahari.

Yes, as you say, the songs did work well, as about a hindu god or Allah too--meaning, folks of any faith can sing them without a second thought about the composer's source of inspiration...

Let me just say that they had neither the time nor inclination to discuss differences in what they believed in. To the enlightened ones, God was God, whatever he was called, I suppose. The times were such.

[sam]

That is a great piece of writing by
@arasi madam. Thank you for the precious reminiscences.

Anyone who has lived In Central KeraLa districts ,will know about the great orthodox culture of Syrian Catholics.

After all, St.Thomas came to KeraLa in 50 AD itself.( Anno Domini). Gandhiji was inspired by John Ruskin. .'unto this Last'.
Tessy Thomas, the Rocket woman protege of Dr.APJ Kalaam , can be a role model to present generation, in dress code, demenour and graceful
womanhood.
Dr. Soundaram Ramachandran was a medico, social worker, freedom fighter and parliamentarian. Students should be taught about them.

Vedanayakam PiLLai has given us some nice poems .advising the girls.
Very much needed in the present day .

Conservatism has some good points ...it had a lot of despicable things too like child marriage and girl widows.
We must learn to retain the good things and throw out the harmful practices.
God has no religion.

My point is that if the Church adopts the essence of CM melodies and uses them in their prayer songs, it is a very good thing for our music system. Their zeal will ensure better reach of classical music among common people..even if they are Christian in theme in a non-offensive way.

[rajeshnat]

My point is that if the Church adopts the essence of CM melodies and uses them in their prayer songs, it is a very good thing for our music system. Their zeal will ensure better reach of classical music among common people..even if they are Christian in theme in a non-offensive way.

Sam,
You have written well till the above block . Unfortunately for many years i was also thinking bit like Arasi that is because awareness of how conversions work is not known to Arasi and in general there is a bit of excessive soft pedalling in the name of pseudo secularism .

The whole CM/Bharatanatyam gettting Prophesied by institutions is only to do more with conversion. Western Piano with english lyrics is not harvesting that much conversion as a typical CM/Bharatanatyam where you have indian languages as it strikes deeper . We can have few edge cases where there are certainly genuine folks who want to learn , but they are few .

Just look at last 4 years , all of a sudden so much of evangelism is happening ,suddenly Way too many orange dhotis and orange sarees mimicking Sabarimala taking a long paadayaatra to velankanni or shorter walk to besant nagar church , Confusing Mary with Mariamma , bringing navarathri like festival with temple sthambam like structures targeting housewives and women who usually bear more family stress in the society . Inculturation is so bad that all states will slowly become a Kerala.

When these kind of discussions happen with school, colllege, family groups . I only ask them one polite and firm question. In 1947 Hindus post partition in india are 90 plus %. Now in 2011 census Hindus are just 78% , 2021 census is not takendue to Covid , will you be happy if demographics of Hindus come down more rapidly and descend below 78%. Let any one answer with a yes or no for that mother of all questions?

Personally i am already confused whether to listen to Maale Manivanna , Devi neeye Thunai , muruganin maru peyar azhagu , tiruvadi saranam endru or the most yesterday apt vathapi ganapathim , in my life i will try to sort out just that which i am struggling . Let us not bring inculturation into Hinduism and we all have to be vigilant and watchful of numbers.

[sam]

@rajeshnat
Sir,
To your question about demographic issue. I am firmly with you. But It is not a problem in Tamizhnadu atall. And the problem is not christian but north malabar and hyderabad. Vigilance is needed.
As to your dilemma about tamil songs,
Why not
"Gajavadana - Sriranjani
| R. Vedavalli |
Papanasam Sivan
https://youtu.be/wN779-15WZ4?si=goBnEo_Qb9ZzB8gp

[sureshvv]

Dudes... Just chill..

Many centuries ago there was only pattai and vibhooti everywhere.

And then these people started showing up shifting everything 90 degrees.

You know the rest of the story!

[rajeshnat]

@sureshvv - your usual choice of words with any thing that you say in a hidden fashion ,i get it . Your last post i donot get it all. Start again and repost what you wanted to say

@Sam One of them is direct and visible which you stated , the other is in stealth mode which has grown faster in last 2 decades. Check demographics of TamilNadu , in TN indeed the problem is indeed there.

[sureshvv]

Vigilance is needed.

Somehow don't think it is "Vigilance". Acceptance will help. Embracement will be better. For that we may have to give up all inherited ideas of caste hierarchies.

[sureshvv]

@sureshvv - your usual choice of words with any thing that you say in a hidden fashion ,i get it . Your last post i donot get it all. Start again and repost what you wanted to say

I must be getting better with age

[sam]

@sureshvv
Respected Sir, i am reminded of my school teacher talking about Samuel Johnson quote.. 'converting the opponent from verticality to horizontality' !
As you doubtless know, the three horizontal ash stripes of saivites were converted into three vertical red stripes of vaishnavites long long before the arrival of colonialists. And there are keetruNaamakkara iyers too.
Take it easy, please.

For that we may have to give up all inherited ideas of caste hierarchies

.
Nothing new. Saint Ramanuja preached it long back , thousand years back. Purandaradasa and Kanakadasa did likewise . India is fighting against two global forces.. one is religion based. The other is global liberalism. We have just last momth seen the disaster in our east. Let us not convert this music forum into socio-economic-political forum please.
.

[sam]

@rajeshnat
Sir, i forgot to add northern karnataka.
we had some pockets, historical legacy of arcot. But miniscule percentage.
Bankim , the visionary, foresaw . Anand Mutt says it all..
We owe the company and the colonialists, and the missionaries, their greatest gift..the English language. Especially to the iyers and iengars.. the avenue of legal profession, science education and in the later generation..software field and emigration.

[sam]

Christianity in Tamil Nadu - Wikipedia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christi ... Tamil_Nadu

Precise data.
District-wise.
.
In a way, nagerkoil , tuticorin districts have broken the hindu-christian divide within the same caste. We find both hindus and christians within the same.. . family.

[sureshvv]

... long long before the arrival of colonialists.

You are correct. Now almost a century later, I view that also in the continuum of various events, earthshaking as they may have been.

Nothing new. Saint Ramanuja preached it long back , thousand years back. Purandaradasa and Kanakadasa did likewise .

We need someone doing this now. Can't rest on laurels of the past.


.

[rajeshnat]

I must be getting better with age

Oh yes this holds good after say 10 years, you are still only young to me .You seem to hint some thing on caste , sam is talking about english . The first is indeed bad of hinduism and this is typically continued by most of the pseudo secular forces. It is continued to highlight more than its due share to further fragment and dilute hinduism and get favourable votes . The second one English is indeed good that colonialism bought . I feel in general english is unstoppable due to simplicity of just 26 letters . If india was even say 15 countries without the british colonialism, english will dominate as most of us will learn as it gets jobs and livelihood .

Personally the joy of billion gods in the HIndu religtion gives rich diversity especially to my dearest of dear carnatic music , though it confuses at times which God that i should pray more . At times i have thought moving from horizontal to vertical axis as i feel Y Axis has more deeper understanding and focus , but hey there is no money induced conversion from X to Y axis there, that is the key point here . 800 years back WHo knows without the greatest two saints ramanuja and adishankara , i would have been rajesh gunarathne or rajesh Digambara .

But since the formation of countries say from 1947 our problem statement has completely shifted atleast at the macro level . Look at conversion that is happening now especially in last 40 years within india especially southern states .Only two countries have a fairly flourishing hinduism one is Nepal and other is India . India is the last straw that every one wants to break especially Hinduism . Numbers matter , when ramanuja and adishankara preached then against the decline of hinduism with their extraordinary inclusivity doctrine, india heard it and recalibirated that was because india was not global . From now on everything is global , money driven hidden agenda -almost all media and newspapers take edge cases ,constantly attacking and creating doubts on hinduism.

@SureshVV what is your concise answer for the question that I asked in my last post? No drifting - i have still not got your view and I personally like to read your view.

[arasi]

Rajesh,
Needless to say, this old bird from afar is listening--to catch up with the history of what has transpired in Bharath the past several decades. You impress me with your taking time to write of things besides reviews (which you bring us amid your demanding working hours). A true shining old time rasikA here on the forum, you certainly are.

Yes, it's a breath of fresh air, Sureshvv appearing in this thread How I wish Ravi were posting too--the loss of not seeing his outstanding contributions in the Lyrics section of late

[sureshvv]

You seem to hint some thing on caste , sam is talking about english .

I must have missed that part.

The first is indeed bad of hinduism and this is typically continued by most of the pseudo secular forces.

Who are you including among these forces? Appears to me that most practicing hindus fall into this notwithstanding their political preference.

It is continued to highlight more than its due share to further fragment and dilute hinduism and get favourable votes

You think we should outright condemn it for being wrong without bemoaning the loss of votes in the same breath?

.
But since the formation of countries say from 1947 our problem statement has completely shifted atleast at the macro level . Look at conversion that is happening now especially in last 40 years within india especially southern states

That is just YOUR problem statement. Others may view it as their SOLUTION statement..

Only two countries have a fairly flourishing hinduism one is Nepal and other is India .

Buddhism is pretty close and one can include Srilanka, Bhutan etc.

India is the last straw that every one wants to break especially Hinduism .

Hmm... Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you

Numbers matter ,

Carnatic music rasika saying this?

when ramanuja and adishankara preached then against the decline of hinduism with their extraordinary inclusivity doctrine, india heard it and recalibirated that was because india was not global . From now on everything is global , money driven hidden agenda -almost all media and newspapers take edge cases ,constantly attacking and creating doubts on hinduism.

You may be onto something here. I feel the next Ramanuja/Sankara is around the corner. On a quiet day, I can hear her breathing

@SureshVV what is your concise answer for the question that I asked in my last post? No drifting - i have still not got your view and I personally like to read your view.

Hope I have whetted your appetite

[sureshvv]

Yes, it's a breath of fresh air, Sureshvv appearing in this thread

Arasi, Thank you for your kind words. Now you are motivating me to write reviews of some incredibly good concerts I have been fortunate to attend recently.

[arasi]

Makes me happy

Reviews too, eh?

[sam]

Christian population has come down from 36% to 25% while Muslims’ has risen from 3% to 12%: Goa governor | Kochi News - Times of India

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 205480.cms

[sam]

India is famous for the reign and values of asoka. Buddhism is greatest contribution of India to the world. India is the sacred land for all the Buddhist cojntries in South Asia and South East Asia. Christianity is baseed on the concept of non violence and jeeva kaarjyam, propunded by Buddhism.
Sankara is known as the reformer who took the best of buddhism and integrated it with vedic religion.

[rajeshnat]

@SureshVV
I will even further down to one key question

Census of 2011 Hindus was 78%. Assuming census is taken in 2024 Hindus count is 69% .
With that objective data,what is your 2 liner response

p.s in general even in census , lot of converts still prefer to be counted as Hindus, but let us discount that error

i am waiting for @sureshvv and with that i nearly rest my case in this thread

[sureshvv]

Census of 2011 Hindus was 78%. Assuming census is taken in 2024 Hindus count is 69% .
With that objective data,what is your 2 liner response

Overcounting in 2011, Undercounting in 2024

Thinking about converting myself as I can't stand what the religion has become.

[shankarank]

BharatnaTyam went through an attack phase from left intellectuals past decade , with many claiming the word itself was coined in 20th century based on nAtya Sastra text only with no intermediate practice since then.

However here is the historical fact from 13th century highlighted by a tamil history researcher T.S Krishnan:

https://x.com/tskrishnan/status/1785891219740004451

People like Sadanand Menon heckled the "dancing girl" claim from Mohenjo-Daro Terracotta find, quoting dancer Chandralekha: "that doll looks like any woman standing in a bus stop or the market" , not appreciating the fact that, a civilization at least thought it fit to capture a posture of sorts in terra cotta. How many such old civilizations have even done that?!

Before we talk about appropriation by Christianity, have we done enough to counter the leftist attacks?

The history researcher points out " Further, the name Sadir came recently during the Nayak era. The word is derived from the Urdu ‘Sadara Naach’, dance happening in a place (<<palace mispelled>>). That has nothing to do with Tamil attam. "

And Dr Padma Subramanyam had to coin a term Bharata Nrityam for some of the things she added : https://www.thehindu.com/entertainment/ ... 082260.ece.

She did a lot of research with postures in sculptures. So, she got the static from the temple sculptures and figured out the dynamic from her modern Shakespeare read aesthetics of her some convent school education???

So a wounded civilization , has no right to reclaim continuity with a broken past? And had to answer for some of the grotesque interregnum, when temples were destroyed , looted and dancers were forced to seek patronage from the court?

And what about Shakespeare himself? I was witness to a situation when two of my English teachers , one female the other a male for two different sections react to a Macbeth line , when the movie was screened at school, with a kind of lost in bliss appreciative nod, that is almost like it was music! So they were parsing his language - nah! They were drawn by it's music! That is one thing I remember about Shakespeare

Didn't bharata Sastram also hint something on those lines? Sangita = gIta + nritya + vAdya!

[rajeshnat]

Overcounting in 2011, Undercounting in 2024
Thinking about converting myself as I can't stand what the religion has become.

@sureshvv
Despite the crisp ask. If you think that either there is exageration and an excess right side swing or may be there is a genuine feeling that you are not happy with the decline of Hindus in percentage over the years . Looks like you prefer not to answer as possibly you want to keep it closely guarded... I leave it that..... I myself swing right and left depending on issue , i usually dont guard the position....

My case in this thread is closed ... nee naama roopamulaku

[sam]

I may be wrong but I dont think, there is any dancing in churches anywhere in the world. The choir singing is the norm.

[Nick H]

Rajesh, as you are so concerned about numbers, better you ask around your friends why people are having fewer children. Do that before you blame everybody else in the world.

According to me, having fewer children is eminently sensible and admirable. For one thing, it frees up women to do other things. I once saw it written the best thing you can do for the environment is to have one less child. On the other hand, according to the economists, it is a disaster: there are increasingly few youngsters to pay for their future old age, let alone that of their parents and grandparents. I understand that Japan is tearing its hair out, trying to get people to breed. It's a worldwide problem.

But if paranoia is your hobby... enjoy.

[arasi]

Without really wanting to sound less serious about things, folks: not only is it nice to have sureshvv chime in, but also to hear him exclaim: thinking about converting myself as I can't stand what the religion has become

[shankarank]

Even with small numbers, "minority" religious institutions hold massive amount of land, running their institutions. Their very tenets have exclusivity built into the theological framework, while our exclusivity is a social phenomenon.

It was only the traditional upper castes who held agricultural land had to give it up at throw away or zero price in many cases to the tillers.

We were warming up to modern institutional tyranny very slowly by participating in them and facilitating them. Our knowledge systems were preserved through endowments that were rural assets mostly, which were subjected to land reform measures and taken away.

However, we could not build alternative institutions and match the narrative strength of "minorities" in equal scale, because their religions were nexuses with international footprint. The "minority" in quotes purposefully, is a misnomer, given the nexus.

Even in this forum, we have seen people mock the New age spiritual movements, basking in the comfort of our own cultural up-bringings!

The first concert review at some "art-of-living" venue, I think here or in the erstwhile predecessor forum, was referring to it as though the reviewer went to an alien place.

Upper castes who inevitably provide the religious/cultural fulcrum, are upwardly mobile and have relatively higher gender parity in terms of opportunities! So their population will dwindle for that very reason.

U.S is facing the same decline in their dominant classes, as people either start family life late as Nick pointed out. Now with millennials, lonely dining in restaurants is increasing!

Time to start our own violin quartet with 15 minute rendition in a sleepy US temple weekend afternoons of the all the gItams of vivadi asampURNa mela documented in SSP, starting with kanakAmbari and build something of an authentic institutional music. Which so far is only the preserve of Madras University PHd thesis and languishing in the dusty archives.

[sam]

@Nick
Sir,
Family planning and population control is absolutely essential in India, which already has the maximum population for any country, overtaking China.

Over the past 70 years, the country has really developed a lot.. most importantly in food self sufficiency, irrigation facilities, primary education, iron and steel production ( we are ahead of even USA ), .higher education, space and rocket technology, railways, infra structure, missiles, consumer goods, and many more, despite continuous hurdles created by the [i]global liberals[/i] and jihadists.

We are poised to become a world power in the coming two decades. We are the greatest and vast land area in the world with near equal distribution of population in all the states unlike 'giant ' countries like Russia, USA, and China...which look vast only in maps.. their vast land is nearly vacant. and unliveable.

In USA, only the coastal states have high population relatively.
Likewise in China.
So too in Russia.

Not for nothing, the European governments and seafarers were searching for INDIA.

This has ever been the most liveable area..especially the South, due to its climate. North eastern USA people are..migrating to California and Texas and Florida for sunshine.
But Colorado i am told is boiling at 140 degrees. One may migrate to sahara

If Moscow falls, Russia will be gone.
Petrograd is already gone.

The fate of China will be decided in Shangai and Hongkong.

But not so in India.
The Deccan saved the culture against the hordes again and again and it is the south that has preserved the essence of Hinduism.

Is it not remarkable that all the three great systems advaitha, visishtadhvaitha and dvaitha were propounded in Kerala, Tamilnad and southern coast of karnataka?

The British colonialists perhaps saved the Deccan from the hordes. The British unified India by the Railway system.
I read recently that Mangalore to Madras line is nearly 150 years old..for perhaos mining minerals and export.

Uduppi? Is so near Mangalore giving credence that Dvaitham is inspired by christianity.

The GDP Is growing but per capita is less because of terrible population growth
. In 1920, the populafion was just
30 crores ..and that included
pakistan and east bengal.
.
Uniform civil code and strict family planning is essential.

Our problems are different from the developed western countries.
We cannot afford to have immigration.

Fortunately, we have no oil.

The Lunatic Left in western countries is encouraging legal and illegal immigration from jihadist countries.

Its effect is seen and suffered everyday in Britain, Ireland, France, Denmark, even in Germany ..even in Sweden .
Most tellingly in USA.
.
We do not need any bigger population.
We have enough.
We can preseeve demographic security only by imposing uniiform civil code and birth control.

The West is turnimg Conservative.
Rightly so.

.

[sureshvv]

Looks like you prefer not to answer as possibly you want to keep it closely guarded..

No idea what you are asking. Am trying my best to be forthcoming.

[shankarank]

The fate of China will be decided in Shangai and Hongkong.

On that note , I need to recall a Vaastu theory! Not sure if it is said in this forum before.

Any city with potential , of course, with water body in it's North East direction ( ISaana) will flourish.

E.g: NY, London, San Francisco ( Yes Sir Bay! - you can see LA is relatively less prosperous) , Mumbai ( Indeed!) , Chennai, Shangai, Hong Kong, Tokyo, Dubai, Singapore!

Even on Indian West Coast : Cochin but not Trivandrum!

Kolkata, Colombo , Moscow - no luck!

Geneva/ Swiss - land locked , but yes there is water on the NE - who can deny the prosperity - Vaastu proved!

[Nick H]

@sam,

I have no arguments with population control and its necessity. It is just that I understand that it worries economists! I'm told that even Indian Roman Catholics have been taking their church's dogma on the subject with a huge pinch of salt for a long time.

On immigrations and its suffering, I can only speak about UK. I have no experience of USA, but I think that that similar applies. Not so much suffering: UK would have fallen apart two generations ago without its immigrant population/workers.

As an immigrant to India (sorry), in nearly twenty years a lot, necessarily, has rubbed off on me and, some time back, I met a young rasika in a shop. Knowing that she had been married for two or three years, I necessarily, as an aspiring mama, asked about children: "None. And none planned."

What? I cried! What about your families? "They are fine with it. Both sides." And, after asking around, I found that this is a growing thing. Thus I mention it to the number worriers.

[sam]

@Nick
Sir, immigrants like you are most welcome. Your very presence in this CM forum is testimony enough for your great cultural values.
I share your concern. This is exactly what I mean by Global liberalism.

It is really disgusting to hear the language of Globalists in US election..
The US was a great country. It still may be, in traditional Republican areas..deeply religious... Except in very special casss , Catholic church does not allow divorce. Nor did the Anglicans which is orthodox christianity based in English Nationalism. And America was founded by Pilgrim fathers and Quakers.
Glorious saga.
... now for some dry demographic data about tamilnad.
The population in Tamil Nadu has doubled over a period of 60 years from 1951 to 2011.
As per the census 1951, the population of Tamil Nadu was 30,119,047
and as per the census 2011, the population of Tamil Nadu is 72,147,030.
.
So, though successive givernments have really tried to improve life of people, wrt, housing, jobs, food, medical care, education, women's education etc, the horrible rise in population , neutralizes the benefit.
per capita.
The problem is compounded by unplanned urban growth.

Dr APJ KALAAM advised PURA scheme.
Providing urban facilities in rural areas.

Combined with family planning education, the srate will see better life for its citizens.

.

[Nick H]

Thank you for your kind words. Certainly the country, and this community in particular has made me welcome. But I am more than a bit of a leftie. I used to be more centre (included what used to be called Liberal before America made it a dirty word): I didn't change, but the political spectrum shifted.

[sam]

@Nick
Yes Sir. The Press and other media have managed to change the meaning of right and left, , liberal and conservative, not by 90 degrees but by 180 degrees.

[vgovindan]

Family planning and population control is absolutely essential in India, which already has the maximum population for any country, overtaking China.

If what I see in Chennai is true with the whole of state of Tamilnadu and whole of India, then, we are standing on precipice, facing a sudden collapse of population. Every other person in the street is obese - this is more pronounced in case women and children - both male and female, particularly, female. On the top of it, while, few years ago, Chennai boasted of one IVF clinic catering for the whole city, now, every street boasts of a number of such clinics. Putting these together, the old slogan - hum do humara do' (we two, our children two) has totally lost its utility. The moral lesson is that an average couple cannot be assured of normal conception - leave aside normal delivery.
If I sound like a doomsayer, forgive me for that. But, my apprehensions are very real and, if true, it does portend well, for future.
Man always exploited religion to wage wars and thus brought himself to dire straits. And, on the face of it, the purpose of this whole evolution - through earlier involution - seems to have gone haywire.
If my reading of Aurobindo is right, the Existence-Conscousness, has no preferences for this or that; the theory of uncertainty principle is very much operative in the area of spirituality also. And, being intent on exhausting every possible alternative, the Existence-Conscousness may just not bother about the predicament of human beings, notwithstanding his evolution towards manifestation of Conscousness, in his animal based mind-matter complex.
Good luck!

[shankarank]

This could help : Universal basic income, as long as it is universal and not having any social engineering parameters, caveats associated with it.

https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/ ... 4#cxrecs_s

Manushan summa sappitukiTTU thoongikiTTu irunda, vErenna? inapperukkam tAnE.

But they must be willing to rear the child. For the working, a child now is like any other investment out there! Reason why US presidential candidates are talking about the costs of child care!!

Child care is an "unorganized" sector so far with home help available , but now even that is a Junior IT engineer cost! If child care is corporatized, then some economies of scale are possible, but the child needs transported to the venue before parents can work - traffic jam!

In summer, visiting NRI kids are causing traffic Jam in Mylapore trying to learn music, I heard

With AI causing people to think about the UBI (Univ. Basic Income) discussions, do we need population anymore?

Purveyors of things cultural - plan to settle down gated-in, in the Non-nation enclaves of big metros (Singapores and Dubais and Davos(s) of India) so you are insulated from all this nation-state conflicts!

[sam]

Man always exploited religion to wage wars

It has been an invioble tenet in India, never to cross our natural national boundaries. Abdul Kalaam points out that great empires in India observed that rule strictly. Not because we cannot but because we should not.
India has always been invaded by the near west and far west. In its 5000 years of history, we never fought any aggressive war. Our conquest of far east was purely by ideas. Even the Imperial Cholas were just defending our maritime trade.
Arbindo changed. His initial guru was Bankim.
In fact, any one who crossed the ocean
was ostracized.

[vgovindan]

Sam,
Have you visited 'Tirukkazhukkunram' - near Chengalpattu? It is a place where Jains (samanar) were executed (கழுவேற்றம்). The other side also true. Find out about lore of Tiruppathirippuliyur - Cuddalore N.T. Let us not pat ourselves that we - our forefathers - were all saints.

[shankarank]

On the story of the Jain impalement, a thread in x.com:

https://x.com/MumukshuSavitri/status/17 ... 4181203296

[sam]

Respected VG Sir,
I am sure that you would have read Mahendra Pallavan's 'maddha vilaasa prakatanam'. A brilliant satire on the jain monks.
If you have read jeevaka chintamani , kundalakesi and valaiyapathy, which were all, authored by jain monks, we can easily see why the tamils considered the jaina monks revolting, especially the Digambaras, more so of lady digambarars.
Much in common with the nearnudes of global liberals
And tourists.

Buddhists were admired and absorbed into our society. MaNimekalai was a Buddhist work, specifically against cow sacrifice. Brahmins accepted its noble message.
The Kerala kings in sangam era welcomed St.Thomas. 50 AD.

Even in sankarahs time, the king of kerala, a vaishnavite, welcomed islamic preachers from arabia. They were peaceful preachers. A very singular occurence in the entire history of spread of Islam. Contrast it with the spread if Islam in Sind. or anywhere else.

Sankara slightly modified Buddhism for vedic followers.

The local wars were akin to German unification. Unification of italy. Arab conquests.

Wars in Scotland, Wales, Ireland and normandy.

Also American civil war.

In fact, the great Harsha vardhana of Gangetic plain was a Buddhist. So was the mighty Chalukyas of Deccan. Pallavas threw away corrupt jainism and adopted saivism. The Pandyans also did likewise.

Vaishnavism found patronage in the far south. The religion of sangam era mullai Nilam got revived.

All the above kingdoms were contemporaneous.
Sankara, sambandar ,appar were all contemporaries...600 AD

Raaja dharmam of our country does not rule out capital punishment to evil cultural agents.
One or two may have been punished that way and the myth spread to frighten potential transgression.

The kings fought among themselves but there were cerain rules.
Only the armies fought.
Civilians were spared.

The wars were mostly fought to restore the magadha empire from himalayas to the Cape. for Political and territorial unity and centralization of command.

This is purely internal to our country.

We never fought external wars to establish our way of life.
No holy wars and crusades because our holiest spots were all within our own glorious land.

When did we ever fight an aggressive war outside of our national borders?
Never.

[shankarank]

There are alternative accounts about Ashoka as well!

https://emperorashoka23.wordpress.com/2 ... ka-maurya/

Some scholars argued that he converted to Buddhism 2 years before Kalinga war!

And it is true that until some British soldier reported about the pillars and edicts , he was largely forgotten in India!

Ashoka the Great is all British provided history!

[sam]

Serious historians have confirmed asokan edicts.
WHY IS EMPEROR ASHOKA IMPORTANT IN THE WORLD? – EMPEROR ASHOKA

https://emperorashoka23.wordpress.com/2 ... the-world/

Asoka was killed by his brahmin minister and first Sunga and then kanwa brahmin dynasties got to rule in gangetic plain. Many historians state that manu dharma sastram was created by these brahmin rulers at that time.
The North west fell to near west ..eastern greeks..
vaasudeva cult established.

It was during those 400 years, the Satgavahana / aandhra dynasty ruled Deccan. It was alsi the sangam period i far south. (200 BC to 200 AD).

Sathavahana mentioned as Nootruvar Kannae in silappathikaram were friends of tamil kings.
The sathavahana dynasty flourished greatly. It had extensive sea trade both in west coast and east coast.
.
All this informatiion is sfandard curriculam ..a dozen books by K.A.Nilakada sastry of Kallidaikkuruchj.
.
Aĺl the ebooks are available free in the web.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/K._A._Nilakanta_Sastri

[shankarank]

@sam sounds like @rsr is back , donning a cloak of a bit of naiveté class act

[sam]

My aged uncle....red vs orange with lot of common ground.

[shankarank]

Vaishnavism found patronage in the far south. The religion of sangam era mullai Nilam got revived.

So the deity has been worshipped with references in tolkAppiyam down ( mAyOn mEYa kADuraiyulagam) to sangam literature on to ThirukkurAL

https://youtu.be/YjGyYWZq1Ug?t=1228

Yet some people notice only the symbolic orientation, even there not considering the underlying import of it even, thus denying the people their knowledge system, making them artifacts of one's own anthropological lens, a Church and colonial playbook for ages! They still whine about converting themselves on top of it.

manadiRkul churchism nuzhaindapiragu, innum madam vEru maara vENdumA? But then this is not about one being a Christian or a Hindu is it? It is about what lens you use to view others.